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Interview with Dr. Charles Ewen, Emeritus Professor of Anthropology, East Carolina University
By Dr. Kirstin L. Squint, Associate Professor of English, East Carolina University
For Joyner Library Oral History Collection
July 9, 2025

KS: (00:02)
My name is Dr. Kirstin Squint. I'm an associate professor of English at East Carolina University, and I'm conducting this interview today from Washington, North Carolina via WebEx.

CE: (00:17)
And I'm Dr. Charles Ewen, and I'm a professor emeritus at East Carolina. I'm actually on campus at East Carolina for this interview.

KS: (00:27)
Today is July 9, 2025. Let's start with the excavation of the site of Fort Neyuherú·k?? by ECU archeologists in the 1990s. From a broad archeological perspective, what is the significance of this site within North Carolina's history?

CE: (00:45)
It's a very significant site in North Carolina's history in that it essentially marks the end, not officially, but for all intents and purposes, the end of the Tuscarora War. It was the last big battle of the Tuscarora War in 1713. It's not officially over until 1715 but it was done after the Tuscarora were broken at Neyuherú·k??.

KS: (01:13)
In terms of thinking about the work that ECU archeologists did . . . this predated your time, so if you want to talk about where you come into this, that would be great. Who was involved in those excavations, and how long did that work happen?

CE: (01:32)
The excavations were done for the most part by my predecessor, David Phelps. I didn't get to ECU until 1994, and he started excavating at Neyuherú·k?? in 1990. He did field schools there for, I think, five years, and involved in most of those was John Byrd. He wasn't a graduate student in our program; he went to Tennessee to get his graduate degree. We didn't have a graduate program then, but John Byrd assisted him, and then later, in 2001, John Byrd, who was adjunct in our department, did a Summer Ventures dig at Neyuherú·k??. So the field schools, back then, were about a month to five weeks and Summer Ventures is about a month. So, there's been about, oh, six months of work at Neyuherú·k??.

KS: (02:35)
Okay, and so at what point did you become involved with the collections associated with the site, and what do you think are the most important things we learn from those excavations?

CE: (02:47)
I took over the lab in 1996, and so at that point, the collections became my responsibility. David was still around, and I was not doing any research on Neyuherú·k??, so I really didn't have much to do with it, other than, you know, once David left, if there were inquiries about the collections and such, I fielded them as best I could, knowing what I did. One of the things I did ask David before he left is, "Are we good with the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act?" And he said, "Yeah," which meant, in his mind, that he was on good terms with the Tuscarora in New York, and he was, and so he kind of felt everything was okay. So, I found out later that they weren't [in compliance]. But when David left, everything was pretty much copacetic. He, I will say, he did leave without doing a report on Neyuherú·k?? and John Byrd, who was going to write it up, when he left to go work for the Department of Defense, also had not written any report. And, actually, a report on the remaining, on any of the artifacts and the excavations, didn't really get done until about 2023 by one of my grad students.

KS: (04:27)
What year did David Phelps leave?

CE: (04:33)
About 1996.

KS: (04:36)
I wanted to talk more about the Native American Graves Protection and Repatriation Act, or NAGPRA, but I'm going to jump in here, since we're sort of talking about these collections, and just follow up on what you said and ask, are you saying that we weren't compliant with NAGPRA at that point?

CE: (05:00)
Apparently not.

KS: (05:01)
What David Phelps had done [wasn't compliant]?

CE: (05:03)
Apparently not. What NAGPRA called for was an inventory of the remains that were then posted on the Federal Register and that had not been done.

KS: (05:14)
Okay.

CE: (05:17)
And I'm talking about the remains, not just from Neyuherú·k??, but in all our collections.

KS: (05:21)
Right, so ECU has Tuscarora and Algonquian remains, is that correct?

CE: (05:26)
We have Algonquian remains. Those aren't covered under NAGPRA, or they weren't at that time. But we also have Tuscarora remains from a couple of other sites as well.

KS: (05:36)
Okay. In terms of the site, is there more work to be done curating and documenting the Neyuherú·k?? collections and records about the excavations?

CE: (05:45)
Oh, I think there could be more articles, or perhaps theses out of them. There's more field work to be done. Only half the site has been excavated. It would be nice to dig more of the interior of the fort that the actual wall has been mostly traced out. There are the siege works that could be looked at, and there's supposed to be a mass burial outside of the fort that has not been relocated.

KS: (06:16)
So, there have been land ownership changes since the excavation occurred. How might potential future field work be complicated by issues around land ownership of the site?

CE: (06:33)
Oh, I think not knowing the landowner always kind of complicates things. George Mewborn III wasn't the easiest for me to work with, but at least I know who he was and what he wanted. I don't know anything about the new people that have bought the site. Now, the site, I believe, is on the National Register [of Historic Places], which really means almost nothing as far as protecting it, unless there were local ordinances, and there are not. I think they would have to be careful either farming or digging over the site since there are known burials still within the fort itself, and then there's the mass burial supposedly outside, so that, for the landowner, they need to be aware that there are problems there. So yeah, any more future work would have to be coordinated through the new landowner.

KS: (07:35)
Just to kind of get back to potential future field work-I'm an English professor, obviously, so there are many things I don't know about this topic-but regarding the mass grave, which is outside of the fort site itself, is that something that can be excavated now, given NAGPRA [regulations]?

CE: (08:02)
There would have to be a reason to do so, for example, that it's an imminent threat, or if the Tuscarora themselves wanted it excavated and the remains put somewhere else, that might be a reason to do so. But just going out and, you know, having a field school on the mass grave, you would have to, really, no kidding, consult with the descendant peoples and the state of North Carolina.

KS: (08:34)
Right. Okay, so I'm going to get more into these questions around NAGPRA, and just to clarify, the initial iteration of NAGPRA was passed in 1990, and this is near the beginning of the excavations of the fort site. What are ECUs obligations to the Tuscarora Nation in terms of human remains and cultural artifacts held by the institution as a result of that field work?

CE: (09:05)
They needed to be inventoried, the human remains and associated grave goods and sacred items and items of cultural patrimony, all needed to be listed and posted on the Federal Register. They needed also to be made available to the Tuscarora. All that has been done.

KS: (09:29)
When did that happen?

CE: (09:31)
When I officially took over the lab in '96, and I know I said that's when David left. I think David actually did hang around for another year or so. He might have left in '97, early '98, which was an awkward time for me, but anyways, I take over in '96. Dale Hutchinson, in our department, who is our bio archeologist, said, "You know, this hasn't been done." And I said, "No, I did not know that." And so he says, "I'm doing the inventory, so I'll get this finished." And I went to David, and I said, "We got paperwork we got to do for NAGPRA." He goes, "Oh, well, we're good with all the, you know, everybody that cares." And I said, "We need to do this." And I said, "And I've got a list of sites, and I need you to tell me who they are affiliated with." And he never did that. He just never got around to doing that. And so, I kind of held off turning things in to the NAGPRA office until I had all our ducks in a row. And then a local group claiming Tuscarora affiliation sued us for return of the remains. The NAGPRA office got that and determined since they were not federally recognized, they had no claim to them. But then noticed that we were out of compliance and filed a grievance against us, which expedited our getting everything all set up, and we are now in compliance.

KS: (11:00)
What year was the grievance filed?

CE: (11:02)
That had to be around '97, I think. I'd have to go look. But it was, it was late in the '90s, '97, '98 because we were, yeah, it must have been around '98 and then we got it, got it finished up shortly thereafter. I mean, it really did kind of put the move on for us. And yeah, so, but that was in compliance with NAGPRA as passed in '90 and amended in '93, and I'm sure we're going to talk about the later changes to NAGPRA in 2023, and we are working on getting all that set up.

KS: (11:52)
That was my next question. What has been the impact of the changes in the 2023 regulations?

CE: (11:58)
Well, the new changes, they could either affect very little, or they could be completely game changing. It depends, at the Native end of things, how far they want to push things. Essentially, all human remains are now covered under NAGPRA. There are no culturally unaffiliated remains. All the Algonquian ones that we had in our collections, that we have in our collections, had been classified as culturally unaffiliated, since there are no Algonquian descendants in North Carolina that are associated with remains or ancestrally, and now there's going to be some Indian group that's involved, and that's what we're determini
ng: who would be the people that we consult with on that, and that's in the works right now, with a grad student. Also, what constitutes cultural patrimony and sacred items is up to the Native groups, and they could potentially say they want everything, and they would get them. So far, no one has but we are prepared for such an eventuality.

KS: (13:09)
Okay, so considering NAGPRA obligations, can you talk about ECUs relationship with the Tuscarora Nation of New York during your time at ECU? For example, in what ways have you maintained a relationship with representatives of the Tuscarora Nation during your years as director of the Phelps Archaeology Lab?

CE: (13:32)
Well, David, when he started digging at Neyuherú·k??, quite rightly, I tell you, he was on it. He got in touch with the Tuscarora, and he made sure they were part of the whole thing. And so when he said, "Yeah, we're good with, with NAGPRA," he meant we were good with the Tuscarora folks and, and even with the North Carolina Commission of Indian Affairs. We were on pretty good terms with those guys. So when I took over, the Tuscarora were already kindly disposed towards us, and I just maintained that contact. And when we completed the inventory, I sent them a copy. And then our other bio-archeologist in the department who took over when Hutchinson left, Megan Perry, she wanted to maybe do some research on it [the human remains]. Anytime we were contemplating that, we would contact them [the Tuscarora Nation representatives] for permission, which was not granted, by the way, and so we've not really done any research on the Tuscarora remains, but we have them. They [Tuscarora Nation representatives] have come down on three or four occasions to make sure things are good. In fact, just last year, they were down with the new chief and a new lawyer. Two years before that, they were down with that new chief and the lawyer. And they came down right after I took over in '96 I think, '96, '97, and they had a shaman bless the remains and put up a tobacco offering at that point, which has stayed with it, even when we moved from our old lab facilities to the new ones.

KS: (15:30)
Wow, that [tobacco offering] has been there since the '90s?

CE: (15:34)
Yes.

KS: (15:35)
So was that a ceremony that several people were involved in?

CE: (15:42)
The delegation that came down were all kind of part of it. I don't know what really constitutes it, but it was formal. It was a formal ceremony. I had never witnessed one of these before, but they were happy with it, so I was happy with it.

KS: (16:06)
And you all [the Anthropology department] don't have to do anything with the blessing bag . . . I guess is what it is?

CE: (16:12)
I can't remember if they said anything about it, but I just always kept it around the remains so . . .

KS: (16:21)
Being out of compliance for that period of time with NAGPRA didn't seem to affect the relationships that had already been established with the Tuscarora, right?

CE: (16:35)
They were completely unaware of the whole thing.

KS: (16:38)
Because it was all pretty new.

CE: (16:39)
Like I said, it wasn't the federal folks that that caused a ruckus. They knew where the remains were, and they felt like they were being cared for properly. Like I said, it was these guys in Washington that got kind of bent out of shape about the whole thing, and then we brought it into compliance quickly so . . .

KS: (16:57)
That's interesting. So in 2013, kind of continuing, you know, conversations about ECU's relationship with the Tuscarora Nation, you were involved in the Neyuherú·k?? 300 Symposium, which was held at ECU. I feel like I could say a lot of things about this, but instead, I'm going to ask you to talk about the purpose of that event and your role in that symposium.

CE: (17:39)
Well, I will say, the whole idea was conceived and put into motion by Larry Tise, who was-I don't know his official title-he was sort of adjunct or honorary professor of history and at ECU, and he had been formerly the State Historic Preservation Officer of North Carolina, and had retired from there. He did a number of things, kind of celebrating history. The Orville and Wilbur Wright Celebration, he did that. And then he was looking around for something else, and he got into this whole Tuscarora thing, and then he came to see me to see if we had anything. And I brought him up to speed on Neyuherú·k?? and some of the other Tuscarora sites. He asked who I knew up there, and I said, well, here are my contacts there. He really kind of took the ball from there. I was just in an auxiliary position on the whole Neyuherú·k?? 300. We hosted the Tuscarora when they came through in my lab. I gave a talk about the collections, which was kind of interesting, since all I knew was basically what had been done by others and just said what we were doing now, and there were a number of others. Some of the folks from New York gave talks, and some of the people in the history department gave talks, and some from other places were brought in to give talks as well.

KS: (19:38)
One of the questions that I didn't ask because you were addressing it in different ways, but I'm going to ask it directly now is, how have how have you seen ECU's relationship with the Tuscarora Nation change since you came here in the mid '90s? The symposium, strikes me as one of the ways that it's changed, but I mean, sort of from a broad perspective, how might you talk about that?

CE: (19:41)
I'm not sure it really changed so much. As I said, David had brought them down so they could see the collection, and that's where I got involved. I met them at that time. I'd been hired, and I don't know if I was yet lab director at that point. So I got to meet everybody then, and the NAGPRA stuff came up, and they didn't come back down for that. But I was in email contact; the NAGPRA representative then was Vince Schiffert, and he and I seemed to get along okay. And so I kept him in the loop as to what we were doing and what the issues were at this point. Then when Larry Tise wanted to do this symposium, I told him, well, you know, I talked to Vince and Leo-Henry was the chief, the main chief of the Tuscarora at that time. And I gave Larry those contacts, and then Larry kind of took it from there, and so he set it all up. You know, I was part of the meeting that Larry convened with the chancellor and the provost and some other folks about what he wanted to do with this. Larry had some clout, I will say that. I did bring up the issue that there were local folks claiming Tuscarora affiliation but were not recognized by NAGPRA or the state or the other Tuscarora, the New York Tuscarora, for that matter. And they said, well, they won't be an issue, and I said, well, I'm not sure about that, but I just gave them a heads up, and indeed, it did become an issue, but not as bad as I had feared.

KS: (21:47)
And how was that an issue?

CE: (21:49)
Oh, during the welcome ceremony, they ["local folks claiming Tuscarora affiliation" from above] were there for that, and they stood up and made their presence known, but it didn't really get out of hand. And, there was a monument put up out in Snow Hill, and they were at the dedication for that too. I was just doing my anthropology thing, watching the interaction between the federal Tuscarora and these local Tuscarora claimants, seeing what the interactions were like, and it was interesting. It was interesting. I think I will put it that the New York Tuscarora were polite about it. But in talking with the former lawyer of the Tuscarora, she said, "Charlie, this is how we view things is that we sent delegations down after we asked the Tuscarora to join the League of the Haudenosaunee. Delegations were sent down, and I think at the beginning of the 19th century, the last delegation came down and said, this is kind of last call, basically, if you want to stay, that's fine, but you're not Tuscarora anymore." And the folks here who had kind of discovered their "Tuscarora-ness," their claim was, "We're the ones that didn't run away so," but as I said to this day, they have no recognition from anyone other than themselves.

KS: (23:25)
You mentioned the monument as part of the symposium. So, there was the academic symposium, there was the monument dedication, there was a walk of some of the younger folks in the Tuscarora Nation, retracing the steps of their ancestors after the burning of the fort in 1713, back to New York. There was also the gifting of a wampum belt to the people of North Carolina via ECU during the Neyuherú·k?? 300, the Neyuherú·k?? Wampum. From the university's perspective, what seemed to be the significance of receiving this wampum belt?

CE: (24:15)
Well, I think at least from my perspective, I don't think anyone saw it coming. I'm not even sure Larry knew that this was going to happen, although you would have to ask him if he's available to be asked. So, the wampum belt, it was all part of the welcome ceremony. And it was all like, "Oh! Well, this is nice," and it didn't come with any instructions like "Here's the care, and, you know, feeding of the wampum belt," or whatever. It was received, and then I don't know really what happened with it. I was not put in charge of it, and it was not part of my responsibility. I believe it was at the provost's office-you may know more than this. I know you've asked more people than I have. I think it might have gone to the provost's office. It bounced around for a while. I think, as all things do, it ends up in the library, in their vault in collections, where it's kept in, and I don't think it saw the light of day until you started asking about it.

KS: (25:27)
From my questioning, I'm not sure anybody really knows where it was kept initially. You know, I've heard rumors it was here or there, but there's no verification. So, I don't want to spread rumors, but I know that it made its way to the library. I think in 2017 there was a box created for it, and there are documents around its preservation and care. And I think when Alston Cobourn came here in 2019 [2018] she started investigating the history of it and trying to understand it. And I think she and Kristen Daniel in 2024 [2023] started getting it into classrooms, and that was right around the time-because I think I learned about it the end of 2023-that I was trying to figure out how I could use it my own classes. So that was a nice synchronicity of us trying to figure out together how to start teaching with it, which according to the documents around the gifting ceremony . . . Luckily, we have this nice video [of the gifting ceremony], and you know, we made promises to share it with our students and faculty and alumni and the people of North Carolina more broadly. So, on that note, how do you interpret the meaning of the wampum belt as a symbolic object, given all that you know about our relationship with the Tuscarora?

CE: (27:03)
And once again, like I said, it did not come with any instructions at that time. I just saw it as, "Wow! We're glad to be remembered by you all and to be part of this, this symposium that's being put together." I think the Tuscarora, the New York Tuscarora, at that time, saw a way to really reconnect with North Carolina, which they had not done. I mean, they did a little bit with David [Phelps], but they hadn't really, really thought much about it until, I think Vince [Schiffert] got really interested. He was a school teacher on the reservation up there, so I think this was a gesture on their part to reconfirm their connection with North Carolina. And I thought, "Well, that's interesting." I didn't know whether they did this routinely for different things. So and then, like I said, the wampum belt disappeared. And I moved on to other things. In fact, none of this Tuscarora research has been any of my research. I'm sort of, I will say, tangentially associated with it, but I'm not directly associated with it, so.

KS: (28:32)
Yes, and I should say that I want to get back to Vince Schiffer in just a minute, but I wanted to say this first, and maybe I should have said this at the very beginning, but the reason we're doing this interview is because you have been the primary contact with the Tuscarora and related to the collections around Neyuherú·k??, since you've come here.

CE: (28:54)
Which is ironic, since I had nothing to do with the excavations there.

KS: (28:59)
Right, but you are, I think, the most knowledgeable person, because you have been the primary contact, and now you're retired.

CE: (29:05)
Right.

KS: (29:05)
And so I think we need this information. So, you know, maybe in the future . . .

CE: (29:10)
Yeah, get this before I shuffle off altogether, so.

KS: (29:12)
[Laughs] Well, maybe I need to interview you about [the archaeology of] piracy or something.

CE: (29:16)
[Laughs] The Lost Colony, yeah.

KS: (29:18)
Right, exactly.

CE: (29:19)
Actually, I wrote up those things, so yeah.

KS: (29:22)
Exactly, that information is out there. This [topic] is what we need to have some documentation of. So we've been talking about the wampum belt a lot over the last year. And I am curious, you know, what your thoughts are. How do you think ECU should engage with the wampum belt, given that we did say at the Neyuherú·k?? 300 ceremony that we would share it with our ECU community and North Carolinians more broadly?

CE: (29:51)
Well, I think we actually kind of have to a certain extent. I mean, we have had a nice exhibit in the library about it.

KS: (30:03)
That was in the fall of 2024.

CE: (30:05)
Right. And I'm not sure, I am really not certain how else you would do something like that. I don't know, maybe put something up, and maybe there is through the library, on our website that folks could see that we have it and know a little bit about it. That probably might be the most efficient way of doing it. But you know, the Tuscarora were pretty much concentrated in eastern North Carolina, so not going into the Piedmont. I'm sure they'd be interested, but I'm not sure how relevant the further west you go and then get into Cherokee territory. I'm not sure how interested they are. Yeah, I'm sure there is some interest. But I'll just be quite fra
nk: I don't know how much we should be doing on any of this. I'm not sure what the expectations are of the Tuscarora. They just came down, like I said last year, and when we asked them, "Okay, what, what are we supposed to do with this?", they weren't entirely clear about the answers like, "Well, you know, you're taking care of it, that's good." And it's just, you know, affirming our relationship with you all. We're supposed to have an Indian area at the Student Center. It's kind of an outside area that has, as far as I could see, not much done with it. Maybe have something in the student center that, if not the actual artifact, you know, a picture of it, or something with some text to go with it. But I think maybe something on the website would be appropriate.

KS: (31:58)
Yes. Maybe an easier way to get to that.

CE: (32:02)
Maybe have it [the wampum belt] come out periodically, you know, rather than, "Oh yeah, someone's interested in it, let's go ahead and trot it out."

KS: (32:11)
Right.

CE: (32:11)
Maybe have it on some sort of schedule, you know, re-exhibit type of thing.

KS: (32:16)
Right.

CE: (32:16)
But it's hard for me to make those kind of recommendations, even before I retired, in that I had no authority or responsibility for it.

KS: (32:27)
Right.

CE: (32:27)
No one was asking, so.

KS: (32:29)
Yeah, and just to clarify, too, you were talking about that outdoor space they created that is the Native American, what is that called? Cultural space? [Indigenous Space] I can't remember exactly what they called it. But anyway, just to clarify, for the sake of the interview, ECU's land acknowledgement is written on the walls of an outdoor space where students can sit adjacent to or on, actually on the [grounds of the] main campus student center. So, what I'm wondering again, since you've been the main contact with the Tuscarora for all these years, do you have other thoughts about the collections that ECU has from the Neyuherú·k?? excavations, or other thoughts about your role in terms of this relationship as you're exiting?

CE: (33:26)
I think my role at this point now is historical memory of what's happened at ECU. I mean, as you say, you hear stories about this and rumors and things like that. I was there for most of it, and so I kind of saw what happened, and I know who the players were on all that. So institutional memory, I think, and I'm glad you're getting this all, you know, recorded, so that lives on beyond me. What I would like to see happen with it-and this is kind of at odds now with what's happening with archeological collections- there is a feeling that all these things should be given back to the Native folks from which they came. As an archeologist, I think the reason we collected them was to do research on them to inform us about the past, so that we're not just dependent upon oral histories and traditions, but we actually have some data of what the lives of these folks were in the past, and right now, we can't do any research on it, and so maybe we do just give it all back. I would like to see some resolution as to can we do research on the material, and if not, then why do we still have it? I think it would be a shame to give it up, in that, I think people down the road are going to want to know about it, or come up with new ideas, new research methodologies, new technologies and such. And they're going to say, "Damn, I wish we had the-I mean, we've got the articles and stuff, but I wish we had the physical items that we could still do work on in a respectful way." I don't want it to seem like these people are a laboratory specimens. I study our American past, and I want to know about my past, and so I think this can be done respectfully, but I would like to just be able to have the permissions to do work on these important collections, to find out about these pivotal times in North Carolina history, and, in fact, American history.

KS: (35:56)
Yes, and I think this is a really interesting point that you make, and I want to reiterate that I'm not an archeologist, so I'm not in these debates. But being an observer of things that are happening in archaeology in my very recent past, I am curious if you think that really, the idea is everything should be given back, or if the idea is that we need to have better relationships with tribal nations in order to see, in order to learn from things, because you've just told us, or me, or whoever watches this or reads this in the future, that the relationship with the Tuscarora and ECU has been one in which they have been to this point satisfied with the way that ECU has maintained the collections from the excavations of Fort Neyuherú·k??.

CE: (36:56)
Yes, but that being said, we can't do anything with them. It's just shelf space that I can't do anything with, and I don't want to belittle these remains or anything. But I'm saying it's like, "Okay, we're gonna store stuff with you, and don't touch it, but make sure nothing happens to it." And that kind of makes me almost like one of those "you-store-'em" places, only nobody's paying any money to store these guys here, and so we've got these collections that can't be looked at. I'll give you an example from recent archaeology that you've done, and you say you're not an archeologist, but that site you worked on with Chris Rodning a couple of weeks ago at Joara [the Berry site], man, nobody knew anything about that. I mean, historically, we had very little ideas. And it's the archaeology that is filling in the very little bit of history that we know about that where, here we have the Native Americans are actually the ascendant people in the relationship between Europeans and Native Americans. This is before the tables turned, and they were actually able to drive the Spaniards out. And we get that whole story through archaeology. I just, I don't want to see the stuff given back. "Yes, we'll take care of it, until you decide that we can do some more," and honestly, I think there's a lot of sympathy in the Tuscarora Nation, and, in fact, a lot of other Native American nations to know what's going on with their remains. But it's the politics that's in the way, and it's the politics on everybody's side, and science and politics do not mix well. Politics is a way of just corrupting science, and it's a shame

KS: (38:52)
Well, and perhaps there will be a shift in the field as more Indigenous people become archaeologists.

CE: (38:56)
And that's what we're hoping for. That's what I'd be hoping for as an archeologist, that, okay, we'll just kind of do status quo until such a time as there can be more work done on the collections.

KS: (39:12)
Well, I think those are all my questions. I really appreciate your time. This has been fun!

CE: (39:18)
Well, I'm glad that, as you say, that if there are questions down the road that this maybe answers some of them. As I say, we've been sort of fortunate at ECU that we have good terms with the folks that we legally have to be on good terms with, the federally recognized Tuscarora and the North Carolina Commission of Indian Affairs. We are not on terrible terms with local Native groups claiming different affiliations if they want to come visit the collections. I have allowed that to happen. They can't check anything out or anything like that. I mean they have to be, you know, respectful and everything. Heck, we've even let them protest on campus about things. So, I mean, I understand all their frustrations, and in fact, with a lot of the Native folks that did not leave North Carolina after the Tuscarora War. I understand the frustration is that they, after the Tuscarora War, it wasn't good to really be an Indian in North Carolina, and so the heritage was suppressed for a while, until late in the 19th, early 20th century, when it started to be better in that regard. And then by that time, a lot of these connections had been lost, and the folks here in the 21st century are trying to figure out, through various means, what their heritage is, and I sympathize with that, but a lot of the politics kind of gets in the way of us really getting at what actually happened in the past. And you know, honestly, it's always been that way, and so we keep working on it. So I think that's all I'd like to say: that the collections are in as good a shape as they've ever been. They are climate and access controlled. The tobacco offering is still with it. And so we're good in that regard, and, and are waiting for the next move from the, the Native folks.

KS: (41:48)
Thank you so much for your time.

Edited for clarity by Dr. KS