[This text is machine generated and may contain errors.]
Charles E. Davis
Narrator,
with comments by Janet Davis
Dr. John Tucker
East Carolina University
Interviewer
[DATE]
Wilson, North Carolina
John Tucker (0:00)
Oh, okay, I'm not [unclear] that record or not. But anyway, we can, we can keep going and - Let's see. So now the - but the nature of your participation in those - in those events? Was it marches? Or did you have a sit-in? Or how - How were they -
Charles E. Davis (0:25)
We did a combination of things. We had marches, primarily at the theaters.
John Tucker (0:32)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (0:32)
Because of course, you had the [unclear] blacks and whites could go to the same theater in a couple of cases, but they sat segregated. But in two theaters here in Wilson, blacks couldn't go to. So we had marches at all the theaters, we asked people to boycott the theaters until they fully integrated,
John Tucker (0:51)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (0:51)
The funny part was after they integrated, we still didn't want to sit downstairs. But we also had sit-ins at Woolworth, just like they did in Greensboro and other businesses that had lunch counters. And we had driving sit-ins like the driving places that they had. Back in those days, we would go out there on Sunday afternoons, and just sit in the parking spaces for hours. Because it wouldn't serve us but we would be there.
John Tucker (1:25)
Okay,
Charles E. Davis (1:26)
Every Sunday. That was all in high school.
John Tucker (1:31)
Okay. Wow. And so once you - when you came to Greenville, as a student at East Carolina, you already had a fair amount of experience in terms of protests, discrimination, and that kind of thing?
Charles E. Davis (1:51)
Well, politically, yes. I mean, we, you know, I was president of the Student Government Association in my high school.
John Tucker (2:00)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (2:01)
So so so there was always this political side to me in terms of things I did.
John Tucker (2:07)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (2:08)
And very much aware of what was going on in the world.
John Tucker (2:11)
Okay, now, what was the high school that you went to - the name of it?
Charles E. Davis (2:14)
Its Charles H. Darden High School?
John Tucker (2:17)
Charles H. Darden. Okay. Wow. That's - I did not know that. I did not run across that - That fact. Now, let's see. Then I say in this - let's see - immersion in anti-racist activism forced Davis to drop out in the summer of 1968. Is that correct? You stopped?
Charles E. Davis (2:40)
Partly correct.
John Tucker (2:41)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (2:42)
In all honesty, what really happened was beginning in the first part of 68, I started dropping out of classes.
John Tucker (2:51)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (2:52)
I would go for three weeks, two weeks - I'd get go past the drop-out time period, and therefore I'd get an "F" out of the class. So I flunked a few classes that year.
John Tucker (3:04)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (3:08)
But, yes, what happened at the end of 68. Was I was made an undesirable student - automatically suspended for a year. I did not voluntarily just leave.
John Tucker (3:21)
Okay. Okay. That's interesting. So basically, you were told that you could not come back. Is that correct?
Charles E. Davis (3:28)
That is correct.
John Tucker (3:29)
I see. That's very interesting. And, okay. Because that, you know, these days they don't do that - even if you flunk courses, they start counseling, and then they help you...
Charles E. Davis (3:41)
Oh, I know. I know. But now, I didn't get made - I was not made an undesirable student because of my political activity, even though that was important to Dr. Jenkins.
John Tucker (3:52)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (3:53)
What happened was, we had a confrontation at the dedication ceremony for Minges Coliseum, - out in the open. Where, you know, when when we organized SOULS, the Student Organization of United Liberal Students, one of our goals was say, you know, intelligent people can sit down and talk to one another and work things through.
John Tucker (3:53)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (4:19)
And it's not necessary for that to generate into taking over buildings or something violent, or confrontation, per se. You know, we really focused on trying to sit down and talk and so I had regular meetings with Dr. Jenkins, where he and I would talk about the issues around the school, the issues around teacher-to-student relationships, around student-to-student relationships, and about things that could be improved.
John Tucker (4:54)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (4:54)
And he was a very intelligent guy he, he said to me was something you know, they could probably have an influence on but there were a lot of things that were - That they can't control.
John Tucker (5:06)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (5:07)
And I said, Yeah, but you know, whatever it is, you're still - its your school, you're the president and whatever happens here you're responsible for.
John Tucker (5:15)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (5:15)
And what happened was that we had some understandings like we had an understanding about black athletes. For instance, one of the one of our concerns, got expressed to him behind closed doors was about black athletes, you know, about the issue of black athletes coming to East Carolina to play and didn't have to sit up there and listen that - all the name calling and all that kind of stuff, plus hearing Dixie, and the Confederate flag at the ballgames.
John Tucker (5:46)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (5:47)
So he and I came to a quiet understanding that they would cut that back. And in fact, we went the whole basketball season - first part of basketball season from 67 to 68 - We had no incidences of it at the ball games, no flags, no, Dixie, none of that kind of stuff -
John Tucker (6:12)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (6:12)
Going on. But when they dedicated Minges Coliseum,. When we were on our way to the Coliseum, one of the other students who was in part of the organization came to me and said, Charles, there's a problem. And I said, well, what could that be? You know, I'm going to ballgame. Dedicate this new Coliseum. He said, they got rebel flags up in there. I said, No, they don't. I had a commitment that we wouldn't have that. Yeah they do, you'll see. On top of that, and I don't know if this was planned, or what. But the moment I walked into Minges Coliseum, that dedication ceremony, they started playing Dixie. And when they did that, I mean, just the whole one side of that gymnasium - one quarter of that gymnasium stood up. They had rebel flags, and all kinds of stuff like that. And they were just hooting and hollering it up. And of course, they would calling us names. And this is with black basketball players on the floor playing for that school. So they said, Well, you know, what are we going to do? I said, Well, I don't care about ESPN being here for this dedication, we're going to demonstrate right here, right now. We'll go out and I said, I'll send a group out - I sent about five people. I said, go out make us some signs, [unclear] make us some signs, bring them back. They wouldn't let them out of the gym. The police was there - that double police, they must have known because they had double everything security-wise.
John Tucker (7:58)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (7:59)
And they would not let anyone leave the gym. They said if you leave the gym, you can't come back here. Never heard of that before in the history of the school on that day. So at any rate, I then went down to see Dr. Jenkins, he was sitting down there in the middle of the gym with his guests. And I want to confront him about what was going on - Well the Dean of Students confronted me and said, No, you can't talk to Dr. Jenkins. He's got these guests here. And you know, we're on national TV. And I basically told him, I don't care what your on and who the guests are, he broke his word. I said he promised us he told me. And I told these people this would not happen at this school again. And so after making so much commotion, Dr. Jenkins got up and came over there. And I told him the same thing I said, you promised this would not happen. I said, now if I was in my right mind, I'd go down and ask those black basketball players to come off that court and not play for you anymore. But we also had an understanding with the players, that we would not jeopardize their scholarships. I mean, you know, we weren't about trying to hurt people. So we basically decided we're not going to go down and put those guys on the spot. You know, that's not fair to them, because they had no control over any of this. But from that Dr. Jenkins, of course, was embarrassed. The next Monday morning, when I got back to school, I'm sitting up in my class and I get a note, which is Dr. Jenkins wants to see you, now. I told the guy who brought me the note I said, well tell him I'll be there when I finish class. Well, that wasn't going to suffice, my instructor looked at me and said, You go now. He was up for tenure. So I went to Dr. Jenkins' office and we sat down and talked about it. And I told him, I said, you broke your word you told us, you told me, We will not be playing Dixie, and you would not allow these flags and stuff at any more sports events, you just banned all flags that way you didn't have to pick one. And I said, Yet I walk in this gymnasium here you are sitting in there and they're playing Dixie and you don't say a word. I said, Now how do you think that made me feel? And the people that work with me feel when we promised the other students on this campus that we wouldn't have to confront that kind of stuff no more. So he said he didn't know what was gonna happen that way and - but you know, he had guests there and all that. And I just said, Well it doesn't matter Dr. Jenkins. Well, he basically told me then he says, Well Charles, I just can't let you get away with just embarrassing me like that - that's just not gonna happen. I said, Well, you do what you got to do, I did what I had to do. And that's when he told me that I would probably be listed as an undesirable. Now I didn't realize at the time what that meant.
John Tucker (11:06)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (11:07)
Basically, you know, it meant I could not use any school facilities beyond that point. I cannot, you know, speak in rooms or speak on the campus or anything like that. Pretty much anything I did, I had to do off-campus. And that I would be suspended for a year. And they did, they did it.
John Tucker (11:31)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (11:32)
And I was - I was - I didn't like it. But you know, I was not - I guess I just took it in stride and just said, well, that's just part of the cost you pay to do what you got to do. So I'll come back and -
John Tucker (11:46)
Make a stand.
Charles E. Davis (11:47)
Yeah.
John Tucker (11:48)
Well, it's sad that that was - that that was the consequence. But so, okay, now, you mentioned the Dean of Students. Was that James Tucker? You remember his name?
Charles E. Davis (12:01)
I can't remember his name.
John Tucker (12:02)
Jim Tucker anyway -
Charles E. Davis (12:03)
[Unclear]
John Tucker (12:04)
Is not related to me. Okay. I don't know that. [unclear] We have the same last name, but I'm definitely from Pitt County, from Greenville. And I think Mr. - Dr. Tucker was from outside of North Carolina, he came to East Carolina and lived in Greenville, but we're not related to my knowledge, anyway. But, but, so, tell me a little bit more about Dr. Jenkins. Did you like the man? Did you feel like you had - that he respected you, as an individual? And the black students on campus, that he appreciated your presence or understood the historic importance of it, and that it needed to work out on campus between the white students and black students? And -
Charles E. Davis (12:54)
Well, you know, Dr. Jenkins, like I said, he and I got along great. I mean, we could sit down, and we just talked, we didn't - we didn't have a whole lot of formality or, or none of that kind of stuff. It was, you know, Dr. Jenkins, and I'm Charles, and we just talked, and he was that way. And that's kind of why I trusted him.
John Tucker (13:18)
Right?
Charles E. Davis (13:18)
I'm not a real trusting person with some people. But I kind of trusted him, because most of the stuff he told me, he pretty much followed up on. But he also realized that we, the black students on that campus, were very instrumental in that school getting university status.
John Tucker (13:39)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (13:40)
Because we went out there and campaigned for, standing right there beside him and all the other students, pushing for - and we kind of, you know, everything East Carolina compares to UNC. And at the time, they were pushing for university status. You know, they were looking at us in terms of, well, we're just as integrated, we're, you know, we have good relations with our students, between the students and the administration and the faculties and that kind of stuff and we helped with that. We helped with that. We helped in terms of us being there, being visible.
John Tucker (14:19)
Okay, I understand -
Charles E. Davis (14:20)
And saying the right things when somebody asked.
John Tucker (14:23)
Okay, so for university status, and for the, for the reputation of the university, he understood and he appreciated the black students.
Charles E. Davis (14:33)
Yeah.
John Tucker (14:34)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (14:34)
Yeah.
John Tucker (14:35)
That's something - hey, you know, it would have been better if he just said, Charles Davis as a human being, I respect you and I value you, regardless of the reputation, but he was a practical man, right?
Charles E. Davis (14:48)
Very practical.
John Tucker (14:49)
Very practical, okay. Now, if you'd returned to the, the Confederate flag and Dixie glum was if you had to say, was one of the two of those worse than the other in terms of the thinking of black students on campus? Did you often hear -
Charles E. Davis (15:12)
They was both bad. The sight of the Confederate flag was always intimidating.
John Tucker (15:19)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (15:21)
But the sound of Dixie and the hooping and hollering it went with it just created a whole nother kind of atmosphere.
John Tucker (15:30)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (15:32)
And so that they were both bad.
John Tucker (15:36)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (15:36)
You see -
John Tucker (15:37)
Yeah.
Charles E. Davis (15:38)
Let me just say this. My class, the class that came in with me was the first, what I called the big class of blacks that went to East Carolina. Prior to that, you'd have maybe 10, 15 or 20 out of the 10,000 students.
John Tucker (15:51)
Yeah.
Charles E. Davis (15:52)
We were the first class of about 50 to 75 blacks to come in at one time. I think that kind of - it was a little shock effect for that at first. But they weren't used to seeing that many blacks all over the campus. You know, except those that worked there.
John Tucker (16:09)
Okay. Were you - Do you think that you were recognized as an African American? I read that you're albino? Is that correct? Albinoism -
Charles E. Davis (16:23)
I'm albino. Yes.
John Tucker (16:24)
Okay. Did students immediately recognize you as, as quote unquote, a black student? I know you're not black, but -
Charles E. Davis (16:32)
Not all of them. Now the black students didn't take very long - part of that is because there were a couple of people there that I already knew. So, you know, they see me with those people, and we get to talking - well how I look was one thing, but once I opened my mouth, they kind of quickly came to understand.
John Tucker (16:57)
Okay, because the first time I saw a picture of you it was in the East Carolinian and you were sitting at a conference table with students and I thought, you know, the man in the middle - who was that? He must be a faculty, he's a teacher, because you had on, you had on a coat and tie and white curtain I thought, well you know... Anyway, they said it was Charles Davis, one of the students and I thought, wait - wait a second, I thought these were black students. And then it - I looked you up in the annual, in the Buccaneer and I saw, okay. I see. He is, He is indeed an African American, but he is - he have that? Right. Okay, okay.
Charles E. Davis (17:37)
I'm not - I have no problem talking about it.
John Tucker (17:40)
Right. Okay. But, but in terms of your identity, do you think the professor's treated you differently because of your appearance?
Charles E. Davis (17:51)
I'm not sure about that. You have to understand I'm a fairly - I was a fairly aggressive person. And I found out later on in life that I had some some issues with Tavistock modeling - So, I tend to resist authority. So in most of my classes, I was kind of a little bit of a confrontation kind of guy but as much because of what I said and - or how I responded, that's probably how I looked. Because like I said, in high school, I've always been a leadership role in most things. So it wasn't nothing new for me to take over and lead an organization or lead a group of students or get them together to talk about an issue and you know, deal with it. So but - yes, of course, you know there's always some some people who can't deal with you if you look different or something like that, or you got - See not only am I black and albino but I'm also legally blind.
John Tucker (19:03)
Were - Did you - I remember you wore glasses, when you were a student
Charles E. Davis (19:07)
I wore real thick, Coke bottle -
John Tucker (19:08)
Thick glasses, right.
Charles E. Davis (19:11)
Yeah.
John Tucker (19:11)
Then you got -
Charles E. Davis (19:12)
I had an operation that got rid of those but didn't really help my vision that much.
John Tucker (19:17)
I see. Now, let's change the subject a little bit. Did you know a basketball player named Tyrone Wyche?
Charles E. Davis (19:29)
Tyrone Wyche?
John Tucker (19:31)
I think that his last name spelled W-Y-C-H-E. Wyche? Wyche? Tyrone?
Charles E. Davis (19:42)
There were two basketball players on the team during the time I was there.
John Tucker (19:47)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (19:47)
Two black ones. And one of them was, we called him "Chi-town" he was from Chicago. And the other one who was kind of the star of the team. I can't remember his name.
John Tucker (20:00)
Earl Thompson?
Charles E. Davis (20:02)
Huh?
John Tucker (20:03)
Was it Earl Thompson? Earl "The Pearl" Thompson?
Charles E. Davis (20:07)
No, no, no, no. Did Earl play for East Carolina?
John Tucker (20:14)
What?
Charles E. Davis (20:15)
He didn't say play for East Carolina, did he?
John Tucker (20:17)
Oh yeah, he did. He played.
Charles E. Davis (20:20)
Okay, well not [unclear] Earl.
John Tucker (20:22)
And he was from Greenville. So I remember growing up hearing about him.
Charles E. Davis (20:28)
Yeah, I remember hearing about him.
John Tucker (20:29)
And he was called "The Pearl", Earl "The Pearl". You know, they rhymed that. And, you know, even he was black and at a time when discrimination was very real. People loved him. Because he was a great player. It's just like Michael Jordan.
Charles E. Davis (20:43)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah. Just like the the other kid from Wilson that went down there to play football. They loved him until football was over.
John Tucker (20:54)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (20:55)
Yeah.
John Tucker (20:56)
Okay. Now let's, one other person I want to ask you, if you remember: Dr. Andrew Best?
Charles E. Davis (21:02)
Very much so, yes.
John Tucker (21:04)
Can you tell me about him? What kind of man he was? How you related to him. And -
Charles E. Davis (21:11)
Well, Dr. Best was just... Let me just say that, that when I first went to Greenville, and I got to know people out in the community, and would talk to people about who in that community are the people we needed to make sure backed us or were on our side, gave us support. See, when we first started SOULS at East Carolina, we weren't focused too much on the campus, we were focused more on political stuff out in the city and county. And so most of our work for the first year had to do with voter registration, voter education, and community education stuff. It was only in the beginning of '68 is where we kind of turned inward, and started looking more at what was going on on the campus. Because we said by now, they should have been used to us and we shouldn't have some of the issues that are still occurring. And that's when we kind of formed this group to kind of refocus on what was going on on the campus itself.
John Tucker (22:28)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (22:29)
And with that, you got a higher level of concern about the group on the part of the administration, too, because they didn't know where that was gonna go. But prior to that, we worked mostly out in the community and Dr. Best was very supportive of our efforts. He didn't physically get involved, but he was a mentor to me. He sometimes would make a contribution to help us buy lunch and stuff. We went out in the county and did work, had people walking out in the county and whatnot. We had to feed them, that kind of stuff. So Dr. Best was - was very, very supportive of us and what we were doing, but in a very quiet way.
John Tucker (23:25)
Did you ever go to his house? He had a big house on Fourth Street?
Charles E. Davis (23:30)
Yeah. Several times.
John Tucker (23:32)
Yeah. I -
Charles E. Davis (23:35)
He was a nice guy to talk to, you know, we - he, and he was very, very, you know, very entertaining and accommodating.
John Tucker (23:45)
Okay. Let's see there's a white student, Whitney Hadden? Do you remember him? His father was a minister. Reverend Hadden?
Charles E. Davis (23:59)
Not really.
John Tucker (24:00)
Hadden. H-A-D-D-E-N. Hadden?
Charles E. Davis (24:06)
Truthfully, I really don't remember him.
John Tucker (24:08)
Okay, it's fine.
Charles E. Davis (24:09)
I may have known him, but I don't remember now.
John Tucker (24:12)
Okay. Cause he wrote a number of letters to the editor in the East Carolinian, you wrote some and he was supportive of the - of the SOULS movement. The 10 Demands especially that came after your - your year in 1968, those were presented to Dr. Jenkins in 1969. Did you hear about that? When SOULS went -
Charles E. Davis (24:41)
What?
John Tucker (24:41)
To Jenkin's house and talked to him right at the front door and wanted to know what the what the situation was with the 10 demands that they had presented to him earlier. Calling for things like, no more Dixie, no more confederate flag.
Charles E. Davis (24:57)
Right, right. We'll see all of that was carried over and carried on to what had not been resolved.
John Tucker (25:05)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (25:07)
And I heard about it and didn't really - I really wasn't involved with it, though. At that time I had gone to Philadelphia.
John Tucker (25:15)
Okay, now let's go back to SOULS just a minute. When - When was that organized? Was that not an outgrowth of the Racial Grievance Committee that you were chair - Chairman of?
Charles E. Davis (25:30)
Well, not really. SOULS actually started in the fall of 1966.
John Tucker (25:38)
Okay,
Charles E. Davis (25:38)
65 - 66. No, 65, 66, 66 - 67. I'm sorry.
John Tucker (25:51)
Okay,
Charles E. Davis (25:52)
In the fall of 67. And and where it came from, it started out was is that the elections were coming. And we wanted to really go out and help with the elections and help elect - elect black candidates or candidates whose support we could that we could give, get. And so we were asked to see if we - some students could come out in the community and help with the voter registration and voter education stuff. And that's where it kind of started. And for instance, SOULS, a lot of folks - my brother even asked me because he went to UNC, well why did you name it, SOULS? And at the time, what we said was, because we didn't want it to be confrontational, if we named it the Black Student Movement, those are Kitt's words. And that that automatically creates a lot of issues and down in eastern North Carolina, you're dealing with a whole different kind of mentality than you would at Chapel Hill.
John Tucker (27:01)
Right
Charles E. Davis (27:02)
Dealing with students. And so, we decided we wanted a name that would indicate who we were, but also would not be as confrontational to other people around the school, so that we could also get support from people. If we called it a Black Student Movement, or a [unclear], there'd be some people who wouldn't have anything to do with. So we named it SOULS, Students - Student Organization of United Liberal Students - Students. This is an anti-liberal society.
John Tucker (27:37)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (27:39)
And we got - matter of fact that came from Bill Lowe.
John Tucker (27:42)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (27:44)
Yeah, sure did.
John Tucker (27:45)
Did you - Were you able to track Mr. Lowe down by any chance?
Charles E. Davis (27:50)
No, I was not. No, I have not been able to.
John Tucker (27:52)
Do you know what happened with him after East Carolina, cause I don't think he graduated.
Charles E. Davis (27:59)
I really don't. I tried to call someone, look him up last week to try to find out but I wasn't able to - I wasn't successful in that. But I'd like to know where some of them are.
John Tucker (28:11)
Right. Right. I would too, just that -
Charles E. Davis (28:15)
But now Johnny Williams should be easy to find.
John Tucker (28:21)
Okay. He's in New Bern, is that right?
Charles E. Davis (28:25)
I think he's in New Bern. He's a doctor. So but well - [unclear] most of the other folks, they're just gone. Once I left there, you know, really didn't contact a whole lot back.
John Tucker (28:43)
Right. And a Galloway, you remember him?
Charles E. Davis (28:46)
Tim Galloway? Yeah, I remember him.
John Tucker (28:50)
And - but you haven't stayed in touch with him?
Charles E. Davis (28:53)
No, no.
John Tucker (28:54)
Luther Moore was another.
Charles E. Davis (28:58)
Yeah.
John Tucker (29:00)
Where was he from?
Charles E. Davis (29:02)
Don't - don't really remember. Most of them were from eastern North Carolina, though I can tell you that. But no, I really haven't stayed in touch with them once I left.
John Tucker (29:17)
Okay. One other thing I wanted to ask you about is this is this is what I've gathered from reading in East - the East Carolinian, that in the spring of 1968, okay. The SGA Special Events Committee announced that the homecoming theme for the fall of 1968 was going to be Mardi Gras, Mississippi carnival, okay. And it turns out that that was meant to tow pace, things like the Southern plantation, minstrel shows, and anything that might have been touched by the Mississippi River. It occurred to me that this decision that was made in May of 1968 was exceptionally insensitive to the fact that in April of 1968, Dr. King had been assassinated in Memphis at a motel that was not far from the Mississippi River.
Charles E. Davis (30:15)
Yeah, yeah.
John Tucker (30:16)
And this celebration of the Mississippi and the Old South, and all of that just seemed met - whether intentionally or unintentionally, but it was going to cause problems with the black students on campus. Did you at the time, or do you remember that being a reaction, immediate reaction to that homecoming theme coming out of black students on campus?
Charles E. Davis (30:40)
To be honest with you by that time, I had pretty much given up the leadership of the SOULS organization to Johnny. And so I was not directly involved, because I could not meet with him on campus. I was not directly involved in what the organization decided to do and respond to with.
John Tucker (31:05)
Okay, okay.
Charles E. Davis (31:08)
Yeah.
John Tucker (31:10)
So, yeah, I've read somewhere that you, let's see, summer of 1968, you spent working as a community organizer, somewhere.
Charles E. Davis (31:23)
Well, no.
John Tucker (31:25)
But you didn't -
Charles E. Davis (31:28)
[Unclear] but we kept doing work in Greenville, out in the community. But but but the summer of 68, as a matter of fact, I worked right there on campus.
John Tucker (31:38)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (31:40)
I worked in the Psych building that summer.
John Tucker (31:45)
Okay. [Crosstalk] You weren't - What kind of work were you doing?
Charles E. Davis (31:51)
Working in the rat lab. Yeah. Yeah. working in the rat lab.
John Tucker (31:59)
Okay. What was your major? Did you have a major at ECU?
Charles E. Davis (32:02)
Well, it was supposed to be psychology.
John Tucker (32:04)
Okay. Did you know Dennis Chestnut? So you knew Dennis Chestnut, is that right?
Yes, I knew Dennis very well. He was it from what Tabor city?
Yes, somewhere - Yeah. And he's still, he still lives in Greenville, as far as I know.
Charles E. Davis (32:23)
Is that right? I wondered about that when you mentioned him the other day.
John Tucker (32:26)
I had a talk -
Charles E. Davis (32:27)
He was a very nice guy, but he was very, very religious.
John Tucker (32:31)
Okay. Okay. And now, were you - are you, are you a religious man, as well? Do you go to church? Did you go to church in Greenville?
Charles E. Davis (32:41)
Nope. No, no, I didn't.
John Tucker (32:46)
Okay,
Charles E. Davis (32:47)
I got more religious as I got older.
John Tucker (32:50)
Okay, I understand, as there are some, you know, there are a number of very historic and important African American churches, the Sycamore Hill Church, I don't know if you remember that one, down close to the river, near Main Street?
Charles E. Davis (33:09)
Not, not really. I did not go to the churches, other than when I did speak. We had to go in and talk to them about things in the community. But you know, I was I was not too much in to churches back in those days.
John Tucker (33:26)
Okay. All right. That's fine. So you ended up - but you ended up graduating from a historically black college?
Charles E. Davis (33:34)
Yeah, North Carolina Central University.
John Tucker (33:36)
Okay. And what year was that? Do you remember?
Charles E. Davis (33:39)
I graduated in '73.
John Tucker (33:41)
Okay. Okay.
Charles E. Davis (33:43)
After that came back from my Philadelphia. I spent my first year but that was 70-71. I spent that year kind of just relaxing around. During the next year, I volunteered to work in a drug-free program called Help House for a year. We tried to rehabilitate heroin addicts, cold turkey. Big mistake. And the year after that I was back to school. And I finished up in 73.
John Tucker (34:17)
Okay, what was your major?
Charles E. Davis (34:19)
My major at Central was actually sociology, my minor was psychology. And I got a minor because of all the courses I'd already taken at East Carolina. So you'd have to do a whole lot today to get that minor. But then, of course, I went to grad school - I started grad school at Central. But my grad school I went to, the Dean of the School of Sociology wanted me to go and get a master's in sociology. In fact, he guaranteed me if I got my master's, he get me in a Ph. D. program. But I told him no. I went to business school. So I switched over and started going at night to graduate school in business.
John Tucker (35:08)
Okay,
Charles E. Davis (35:09)
I didn't finish my degree, but I finished all the class work. And I got a job. When I got the job I left.
John Tucker (35:18)
Where did you - Where did you get a job for what company?
Charles E. Davis (35:22)
Digital Equipment Corporation, we used to call it DEC. It's a computer company, they went out of business some years ago. But back in the 60s, they were big time
John Tucker (35:35)
Was this - Where was this in Raleigh, Durham? In the Triangle area?
Charles E. Davis (35:39)
Oh no, Massachusetts.
John Tucker (35:40)
Massachusetts. Okay.
Charles E. Davis (35:43)
Now, what happened is this this company, this plant, I should say, had an outreach program to black colleges, where they came down every year, and would try to recruit one or two students for either internships or for positions at those facilities. And I got lucky. I got lucky I had a good friend, Danny Lee. Who introduced me to this guy who was a plant manager and he came down and we scheduled a half-hour interview and wound up talking two hours. And he just told me when he left the room, he says I'm gonna hire you. I mean, that's like a miracle thats like heaven opened up for me. Cause, going from my degree in sociology, to a job as a cost analyst is a long stretch.
John Tucker (36:42)
Right? Well -
Charles E. Davis (36:44)
But, but my graduate work in business had a lot to do with statistical analysis. So so it was not a - for me, it wasn't a big jump. But I knew absolutely nothing about what I'd be doing once I got there.
John Tucker (36:58)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (36:59)
So I went to Massachusetts for three years. Stayed up there for three years and left, then came back to DC.
John Tucker (37:09)
Okay. Now in Massachusetts, you were in Boston? Where were you?
Charles E. Davis (37:13)
Springfield.
John Tucker (37:14)
Okay. And then in DC, what were you doing? Still working for the Digital Equipment -
Charles E. Davis (37:21)
Well I transfered with Digital to DC. but then I left DEC. And I went to, what's now known as Baxter International, it used to be called American Instrument Company, then Travenol Labs, and now it's Baxter.
John Tucker (37:42)
Okay. And you worked with them for how many years?
Charles E. Davis (37:49)
About 19-20.
John Tucker (37:50)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (37:51)
Yeah.
John Tucker (37:53)
Now, you you lived in Florida at one point, is that right? Was that while you worked?
Charles E. Davis (37:57)
That's correct
John Tucker (37:57)
Or after retirement?
Charles E. Davis (38:01)
That's correct.
John Tucker (38:02)
Were you working when you were living in Florida? Or was that after retirement?
Charles E. Davis (38:06)
Oh, no, no, no, no, I was working.
John Tucker (38:08)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (38:09)
Matter of fact. I'm the only manager of my plant. When they closed my plant down. They transferred all of my products down to Florida. I'm the only manager out of that plant that was invited to come down to Florida to work. And so I ran that part of the business for about 10 years [background talk] Yeah.
John Tucker (38:35)
Where in Florida were you?
Charles E. Davis (38:37)
In Largo.
John Tucker (38:39)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (38:39)
Right outside Clearwater and St. Pete. Across the bay from Tampa. Yeah.
John Tucker (38:47)
You like it?
Charles E. Davis (38:49)
I liked the - I liked the job tremendously. The Florida area itself, I wasn't that going crazy about Florida. It's hot and steamy in the summer and -
John Tucker (39:02)
That's right
Charles E. Davis (39:03)
And you didn't get winter ever. You know, it's like Christmas day I go out and get the paper. I'm in short pants and barefooted, you know, walking out to get my paper.
John Tucker (39:12)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (39:13)
I kind of wanted a change of seasons again.
John Tucker (39:15)
I understand. I taught - I taught at the University of North Florida in Jacksonville.
Charles E. Davis (39:21)
Okay.
John Tucker (39:22)
I felt the same way. You know, it was - if you like warm weather and you like hot weather, it's fun.
Charles E. Davis (39:29)
Yeah.
John Tucker (39:31)
You know, it was not for me. Not that much anyway. So let's go back to East Carolina and think, were there professors that you had that you remember that that were offensive or supportive? Do you - Can you single out anybody that you studied with at East Carolina? As faculty -
Charles E. Davis (40:00)
One of them you mentioned Dr. Knapp.
John Tucker (40:03)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (40:05)
But, and there were several professors in the Sociology Department and a couple in the Political Science Department who were supportive of what we were doing, particularly when we were doing this stuff in the community. And who came out and they marched with us, we put them into some pretty dangerous situations. I mean, like, we sent a group down, because we were working the whole county, we had groups that would be assigned to certain towns to go work, I sent a group of five people down to Falkland. And they went down there and they wanted to find out where the voting registration place was and you know, where the sheriff's office was, and get a map of the area so they can plot out what streets and roads we had to walk down, or go down to talk to people. And when they got there, they were met by the sheriff's office and the Klu Klux Klan. And they were told point blank: get out and go back to Greenville, wherever you're from, get out of Falkland. So the next week, we sent a bigger group down there, but we put - and, I hate to say this, but it's true - We put mostly white people in the front. But we told him up front, what we were doing. Weren't like we were trying to be slick on them. But we just told them that, you know, the Klan was out there, the sheriff was out there and you know, they see five black kids coming out there, that's no big deal. But now they see some of you college professors and white folk, they may back off a little bit more. And they did - they didn't attack us anyway directly.
John Tucker (41:58)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (42:00)
So, but people people went out and work with us and helped us and particularly out of the Sociology Department. I have to single that department out because they, they really did do a lot and Political Science.
John Tucker (42:13)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (42:14)
Now, the Psych Department? Naw. No.
John Tucker (42:18)
Do you - Do you remember John Howell, or his wife was Gladys Howell?
Charles E. Davis (42:24)
That name sounds familiar, but I don't really remember.
John Tucker (42:27)
What about history professors? Did you have any take any history classes at ECU?
Charles E. Davis (42:35)
Yeah, I took a couple. I'll tell you, my - my favorite or best was by...
Janet Davis (42:45)
Anthropology.
Charles E. Davis (42:46)
Anthropology classes. Really loved those, very educational. And the lady who taught me she had worked with Leakey over over in Africa.
John Tucker (43:03)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (43:04)
And during the diggings up around Homo habilis, and she was very, very good at explaining to students in the classroom and then whatever, about how people develop, she talked about albinism and how it came about and percentages and research and that kind of stuff. And how people change over time, how they grew different. And it was really interesting - she's very interesting. Nice, nice little old lady.
John Tucker (43:34)
Do you remember her name?
She's not aged. Very nice, very knowledgeable. But that's, that's about it, I mean, you know, my mind really was not and it should have been on more school. My first year was old school. But after I got into the - to the dormitories, got more involved directly in day-to-day campus life, the other things started to take over or you know, other priorities [unclear].
Okay. You mentioned the basketball games. Did you go to the football games in Ficklen Stadium?
Charles E. Davis (44:14)
I did during the time I was there, a couple of my - I didn't go to football a whole lot. But I mean, it was same issue at first. You know, them - them with their flags and all that stuff. And I don't go to games now. I went to one I think about two years, about - No, that'd be three years ago now.
John Tucker (44:39)
Right. So okay, well, I think that that takes care of it. Is there anything else you want to talk about this morning? Maybe, maybe where we are today in terms of the United States and progress towards better relations between people, people of color. As you know, today, it's it's become more people of color rather than black and white. And there are all sorts of variations but relations between the diverse people that make up the United States is - cause obviously we had a lot of problems this past year with George Floyd on, it seems really horrible things have happened in the United States in the last 12 months.
Charles E. Davis (45:32)
Well, see - See that, what you're saying is true to a point, those things have been happening all along. It's just that there was a camera at those sites, so people could see what happened. Most of those things to happen like that you don't ever see it.
John Tucker (45:52)
Right?
Charles E. Davis (45:53)
And see black folk know this and that's one of the reasons you know, sometimes people don't think that we we don't understand why people don't understand and part of it's because they don't have as much knowledge or perception about as we do. Because we know these things happen and they're not always on camera. They're not always in the public eye, but they still happen. And so that's I'll tell you relations between people today. I'll be honest with you, the last four years has been a major, major setback. I'm not a Trump fan, I make no bones about it. I thought he just, he just hurt so much that's got to be rebuilt. It's gonna take more time to rebuild it now. And it's still not over and still spewing all of this division stuff. And I'm extremely pleased that Biden was elected president, I'll tell you that.
John Tucker (47:07)
Yeah.
Charles E. Davis (47:09)
I think he's probably the right guy, at this time, for that situation. He's been there long enough, he should know. And he's got ex-presidents to help him - He's got Obama, he's got Bush, he's got Clinton. You know.
John Tucker (47:28)
Well, speaking of thinking of Barack Obama, were - were you, you know, I was I was honestly, somewhat surprised that that he was elected - but I voted for him. I voted for him twice - was actualy elected. And I continue to think, you know, honestly, one of these days, we will have a female president, but I would be, I would be very surprised if it happens in the next election. It might. But for the longest period of time, the thought in my opinion, if you had told me when I was growing up, there'd be an African American president named Barack Obama, that probably would have would have thought you've got to be kidding. That's, that's a little bit hard for me to -
Charles E. Davis (48:14)
There were a lot of other people that thought that too.
John Tucker (48:17)
It happened. Now, you know, it could be the Kamala Harris is going to be the next President of the United States. Then we'll have not just a woman, but a black woman, or a woman of color. What are your thoughts about all of that? And what does it say about whether we have made some progress in this country? Or is it just an illusion? Or does it does it look like progress?
Charles E. Davis (48:44)
Yeah, I think we've made progress. Um, I think that we have, we are, we are now finally accepting the fact that women can be the leaders and can make the decisions that have to be made. You know, a long time I've worked in private industry all my life. So I didn't have the luxury of education and these open minds around me and whatnot. I had to work in that day to day, you either produce or you go environment, I have learned that women are very, very capable. I have no issue at all with hiring a woman to do anything. I believe that Kamala Harris would probably make a good president. Now I don't know enough about her to to really sit here and say she be great or that - I don't know, some people don't adjust to that pressure, that environment. And it's something that sometimes you have to give them a chance first to adapt to a little bit. So this, this period for these four years where she's vice president is gonna say a lot about it. Even though she's not the main - the decision maker, she'll be in there on a lot of them and she'll get a chance to see.
John Tucker (50:11)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (50:11)
But I would probably have to agree with you that I'm not sure that necessarily in four years that she would be the one. But I firmly believe that another black person can become president in this country. I think that all of this turmoil and stuff that we're going through now, a lot of this is going to go away. We get rid of this, this virus, when we get people back to work, and when we hopefully have a chance to step back and take a look at what's happened the last - And I'm not gonna say four years, I'm going to say last 10 years, and see if we can't change some things. I'm optimistic that it will work out. Although I can say I'm truly been disappointed the last few years. I guess -
John Tucker (51:09)
Yeah.
Charles E. Davis (51:09)
It's almost like it - you look at it and you say, why did we go through all this? You know what I mean? It's like the cop, the policeman, the Capitol policeman on TV yesterday, when he just looked at the camera just said, is this America? And that was all he had to say. I mean, that's that's the gist of it. Is this America? And it's not. I don't believe it is. I think it's better. I think America is better. I just don't know what happened. I don't know what happened because the people who are the adults now were the people who were part of the first integrated schools.
John Tucker (51:54)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (51:56)
And you kind of wonder, did school integration helped us or hurt us. I know it helped us from from a educational experience standpoint. But from a relationship standpoint, I'm not sure if it helped us or hurt us. I just don't know.
John Tucker (52:18)
When you graduated from high school, what - Did the high school that you graduated from was it integrated or? Was it all black?
Charles E. Davis (52:24)
No.
John Tucker (52:25)
It was all black.
Charles E. Davis (52:25)
It was all black.
John Tucker (52:26)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (52:27)
All black and very nurturing and very, very supportive. And I met - I don't see schools do stuff like they did there now.
John Tucker (52:42)
Right. Yeah. I've heard that before. I have to admit, I'm just old enough. I'm 66. Okay. Let's see. I'll be 66 in April. When I started school, at Elmhurst, I don't know if you remember, Elmhurst was right across the street from Ficklen Stadium, up College Hill.
Charles E. Davis (53:02)
Not really.
John Tucker (53:03)
That was where I went as an elementary student - student and then junior high school was was downtown on Fifth Street, Fifth and Reede. But the school burned down. And I believe it was 1968. And we ended up finishing the year at St. James Church. And then they they built a new high school, junior high school, E.B. Aycock, that I went for the ninth grade year, and then for high school, Rose High School. About the time - by the time my group my year, went to high school. Rose was the only high school in Greenville. So we were all together at that point. And it was it was different, it was difficult. Every year we had we had problems. Some of them, some of them, well nightmarish. But I have to admit, at the same time, you - we met and became friends with some of the best people you could ever hope to meet. Black and white. And I think that I think that it was a difficult transition. But it was the long-term - in the long-term perspective it was it was undeniably a step forward. But I have heard, I've heard from more than one African American more than one black person that they miss the sense of community that black schools created. And in, in West Greenville, for example, I'm afraid that West Greenville is is disintegrating, and in part because the Eppes School is not as much of an anchor or a common grounds to build community and build an understanding of who families are and their relationship to education and so on so forth.
Charles E. Davis (55:03)
Yep.
John Tucker (55:05)
Yeah - I don't know, I don't know what to say except that throwing everybody together is, is, is both good and bad. And it it does - Well, anyway, I don't know what to say about that, except that we do have -
Charles E. Davis (55:23)
I'll tell you this, when I started working in the industry, when I left Central - for the most part, most of my career, I've always been a manager or supervisor except for maybe the first two or three years, two years, two years or so. And so I got to know people, I think probably the most important thing that I've learned in my career about people is they're no different. Whether you're black or white, tall or short, green or yellow. At the end of the day, people got the same problems, the same issues, the same concerns, whether you're rich or poor, it's just a difference in the way you do things. And so, you know, the whole thing about black and white. The difference is, it just to me, it's just so pointless. And it's especially pointless. And for me, it's even more of an issue because I know that I look different.
John Tucker (56:30)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (56:32)
And I've experienced differences. I mean, there's no issue about it. I've experienced, right in my own community, right around people that know me every day. So you know, but people are the same, and I just wished that people would take that attitude and approach people as people and not with these preconceived notions of what they're like. You know? That's - that's probably the worst thing right now, is we got all these preconceived notions about people, and most of them just aren't true.
John Tucker (57:08)
Speaking of, of your upbringing, maybe we should say a few things or I should ask you a few things about your, your earlier years in Wilson. I've listened to the interviews that that were done by Barton College earlier, years ago, and you spoke to - you came from a big family, is that right? Twelve children?
Charles E. Davis (57:34)
Twelve kids.
John Tucker (57:35)
Okay. And your father worked in one of the tobacco warehouses nearby Center - Center Brick Warehouse,
Charles E. Davis (57:44)
Central Brick, yeah.
John Tucker (57:47)
And what did he do there? Do you remember? Did you ever work -
Charles E. Davis (57:51)
He was just a warehouseman, moving tobacco, setting up lines, you know, whatever it took. He was not in management or nothing like that.
John Tucker (57:59)
Right. Did you ever work in tobacco by any chance?
Charles E. Davis (58:04)
I worked - I used to, when I was a kid, I would go out and hand tobacco. I couldn't work out in the field cropping though because that sun would have ate me up.
John Tucker (58:14)
That was hard work. Oh, yeah.
Charles E. Davis (58:15)
Yeah. But I did work under the barn handing tobacco. And then I worked for a little while after I left school as a shipping and receiving clerk for one of the tobacco plants here in Wilson. And they never had a black shipping and receiving clerk. And we went from what was generally almost 100% mistakes to zero in about a week. I mean, they loved it. I come in the mornings, I go touch base with them, find out what the priorities were. And I just tell them fine, give me a schedule when you want them. They didn't have to come over there anymore. They loved it.
John Tucker (58:54)
Okay, was - Were you already a student at East Carolina at that time? Or was that -
Charles E. Davis (58:59)
Yeah, I had alread been a student.
John Tucker (59:01)
Okay. So you, you had you had something of an education? You had some?
Charles E. Davis (59:05)
Oh yeah.
John Tucker (59:08)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (59:09)
But -
John Tucker (59:11)
Go ahead.
Charles E. Davis (59:11)
Out of 12 kids that my parents had, four of us were albino.
John Tucker (59:16)
Okay. And do they still live in Wilson. Do you -
Charles E. Davis (59:22)
Nope. My oldest brother still lives in Wilson.
John Tucker (59:26)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (59:26)
He, he just still lives in Wilson. Yeah. He used to work for Branches Bank. So he was he was, he was good. He was one of my heroes, because there weren't too many black men in Wilson that had full-time jobs back in those days.
John Tucker (59:46)
Right. Well, he was probably inspiration too, right?
Charles E. Davis (59:52)
Yeah.
John Tucker (59:53)
Showed you it can be done you can -
Charles E. Davis (59:56)
Yup.
John Tucker (59:58)
And your mother, from what I remember of the interviews that the Barton College people did, they said that she worked in the warehouses as well as did domestic work. Is that right?
That's correct. Yeah. Yep, she sure did and that probably - a lot of women back in those days had to do. They worked in a factory for many months a year. And then they worked in white folks houses the rest of the time, a couple days a week or something like that.
But by the time you got to East Carolina, it looked to me like, just going over the pictures that I've seen of you, you were always in a coat and tie. You look like you were dressed nice. And so, I would not have I would not have concluded that you were from anything less than a middle class background, is that -
Charles E. Davis (1:00:55)
Well, this much I can tell you about my mama, you - her child, you learned to do things, you learned to do them right. We never were hungry. And we never went without clothes and stuff. Never ever, no matter how bad it got. And my father died when I was six years old.
John Tucker (1:01:18)
I'm sorry.
Charles E. Davis (1:01:20)
And he left 10-11 kids at home. And my mama had to raise all of us. And but you know, you had rules you had to work by. But - but we never, never, never, never ever didn't dress like we supposed to or not going out clean and pressed and whatnot. Never hungry. And my mother always taught us to speak correctly. She was, did not get that much education, but she made sure her children did. So there was none of that Ebonics stuff, or what I call ghetto talk, in our house - that didn't happen. You learned to speak English. And today even I've learned the value of that so much. Because when I when I would hire - we used to hire people all the time, one of the first things that I looked for was the ability to communicate, can you communicate to other people? Can you speak? Can you write?
John Tucker (1:02:34)
Yeah.
Charles E. Davis (1:02:34)
And if you didn't, sometimes we had to train you. Yep.
John Tucker (1:02:42)
But now, on campus, the picture that I've seen of you, you've got on a coat and a tie. Well, did you dress like that usually? Or was that just for a special occasion?
Charles E. Davis (1:02:53)
Just special occasions.
John Tucker (1:02:55)
Because these days, you know, these students, I mean, it's fine with me. But they're, they're wearing short pants, t-shirts, and I've got an t-shirt right now. So but there are all kinds of dress codes going on or dress on the part of students - informal, less formal. But the thought for me - the thought of a student coming into my classroom, at ECU wearing a coat and tie - thank goodness, he must have a job interview or something like that going on after after class.
Charles E. Davis (1:03:31)
A lot of times I had meetings with people after school, or during the school day and so I would dress for that in the morning. So I didn't have to. And when I lived in the dormitory, you don't want to make that walk twice a day. So you know, you kind of made sure you were dressed the way you need to be for everything you had to do -
John Tucker (1:03:56)
Okay
Charles E. Davis (1:03:56)
That day. But those pictures, you know, we - those were pretty much planned meetings and stuff like that. So, you know, you dressed kind of to, to reflect what you want people to see.
John Tucker (1:04:10)
Right. Okay. One thing that you mentioned going up College Hill, made me think that the the school that I went to for high school, Rose High School is now named C.M. Eppes. In your day, C.M. Eppes was located on West Fifth Street. Did you ever have any associations with the people who were - who were alumni from C.M. Eppes or the local Greenville black community?
Charles E. Davis (1:04:40)
No, no, that was after my time.
John Tucker (1:04:43)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (1:04:44)
Everybody did I knew when to hips,
John Tucker (1:04:47)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (1:04:48)
Yep. Did you ever come across a name Roscoe Norfleet in your studies.
John Tucker (1:04:57)
Roscoe Norfleet. I have and as a matter of fact, one of my classmates was Trina. Okay, Trina Forfleet.
Charles E. Davis (1:05:06)
Oh, okay.
John Tucker (1:05:06)
Yeah. If I'm not mistaken. Her brother is named Roscoe and her father was named Roscoe. And -
Charles E. Davis (1:05:14)
They own a cleaners.
John Tucker (1:05:15)
Right?
Charles E. Davis (1:05:17)
Yeah. He was one of my mentors down there. He -
John Tucker (1:05:21)
Okay, how about D.D. Garrett, did you know him? Did you -
Charles E. Davis (1:05:24)
Garrett. Yes, I did.
John Tucker (1:05:26)
An insurance man and he was [unclear]. Yeah.
Charles E. Davis (1:05:30)
Yeah, we knew him. We didn't really have a lot to do with him, but we knew him.
John Tucker (1:05:34)
Okay, how about - there was another when I first saw your name, Charles Davis. I thought about the father of one of my classmates, Darrell Davis. He was an African American and his father was named Charles. He was a teacher, lived in West Greenville. His wife was named Julia. Did you know them by any chance.
Charles E. Davis (1:05:54)
No, sure didn't.
John Tucker (1:05:56)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (1:05:56)
I sure did not. I'll tell you one other person though, who really supported us in Greenville, I don't know if you've come across the name Bennyboy Roundtree.
John Tucker (1:06:05)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (1:06:06)
And the Albemarle Cafe.
John Tucker (1:06:08)
Right. Okay.
Charles E. Davis (1:06:10)
That was one of the people in the community who supported us a lot. Yep, sure did.
John Tucker (1:06:17)
Now down by the river - The Tar River, had that redevelopment business occurred when you were in Greenville. I don't think it had.
Charles E. Davis (1:06:27)
No, no, no.
John Tucker (1:06:28)
Do you remember that community down there?
Charles E. Davis (1:06:34)
No, we were focused more downtown and West Greenville.
John Tucker (1:06:39)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (1:06:40)
Than anything else. And then out in the county.
John Tucker (1:06:43)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (1:06:43)
More than anything else. We didn't get to that other side of Greenville too much.
John Tucker (1:06:48)
Okay. You mentioned in connection with going out to the Falkland area that you, you knew that there was a Ku Klux Klan people out there. KKK. Did you ever encounter anybody at East Carolina who had ties to the KKK? Or was there any kind of activity in Greenville that you knew of?
Charles E. Davis (1:07:12)
Well, not, not directly to me. There were people we heard about, but I mean, we had pranks pulled on us all the time in the dormitories, stuff like that. And, you know, nasty little pranks and but you kind of you know, you write that off to experiencing college.
John Tucker (1:07:37)
Like, what kind of pranks are you talking about?
Charles E. Davis (1:07:39)
Well, like somebody's picking up a bucket and urinating in it, leaning it against your door. And they knock on your door and they run around the corner. You open your door. So we caught the guy that did it.
John Tucker (1:07:56)
Yeah.
Charles E. Davis (1:07:57)
Yup, we made him get a bit of it up.
John Tucker (1:08:01)
That - that's, that's sad to hear that that kind of thing...
Charles E. Davis (1:08:04)
Well, that's the kind of stuff that happened. And you know, like -
John Tucker (1:08:10)
But were you -
Charles E. Davis (1:08:11)
I had my white roommate for a while. And when he and I would be coming from main campus and we'd come across, walk into the dormitory. They'd be all out the window. Dan, Dan, the N-man, you know.
John Tucker (1:08:25)
What happened?
Charles E. Davis (1:08:25)
I tell you they'd call him: Dan, Dan the N-man.
Oh, okay. I don't -
Janet Davis (1:08:32)
Dan was the white guy.
Charles E. Davis (1:08:34)
Dan was a white guy.
John Tucker (1:08:36)
Okay?
Charles E. Davis (1:08:37)
And my roommate.
John Tucker (1:08:37)
Oh, I see. I see.
Charles E. Davis (1:08:41)
Yeah. When we walked back up to the Hill together after classes. And they'd holler all kinds of stuff out the window.
John Tucker (1:08:51)
Okay -
Charles E. Davis (1:08:52)
It was tough.
John Tucker (1:08:54)
So the N-word is what you're talking about.
Yeah.
And was that used - Was that used often?
Charles E. Davis (1:09:01)
Not, Not, not in the classroom and stuff like that. But in the dormitories? Yeah. Yeah.
John Tucker (1:09:11)
I see. Ah, and how did you - I mean, I can't imagine that you were happy about that. But did you say anything or do?
Charles E. Davis (1:09:21)
Well yeah, we sometimes we got confrontational. We'd go sometimes to the Dean of Students who, you know, they'd have a meeting and remind students of how they - what they say and all that kind of stuff. But bottom line is, you know, that's just one of those issues where it has to work itself out.
John Tucker (1:09:42)
Yeah, it's um, you know, it's hard for me to believe because I guess I grew up in a different - a little bit different time and with upbringing that that did not, did not allow that kind of - that kind of speech.
Charles E. Davis (1:10:02)
You had that in January right up there at the white - at the capitol.
John Tucker (1:10:06)
Right. Right. yeah, unfortunately, it's, it's still part of our world. Okay. Well, is there anything else that you can think of that we talked about this morning, we've gone over -
Charles E. Davis (1:10:21)
No, I'd - I think we pretty much covered it. I mean, from what I could remember that - if I remember something that I think is significant, I'll give you a call.
John Tucker (1:10:30)
Okay. But about East Carolina. I think I think when I talked with you by phone earlier, you said that you sort of regretted that you didn't graduate from East Carolina? Or do you have any misgivings about going to North Carolina Central as opposed to finishing it at ECU?
Charles E. Davis (1:10:50)
No, not really. I mean, for me, it was a great experience. Going to Central was was good for me.
John Tucker (1:11:03)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (1:11:04)
But but but I - the only regret I had about not graduating from ECU was the fact that I learned a lot there. I didn't like, I did not like the quarter system, which they were on at that time.
John Tucker (1:11:17)
Right.
Charles E. Davis (1:11:18)
But I did learn a lot. And I met some good people. And it's kind of like when you don't finish something you start, you feel like you kind of failed at it or something, you know,
John Tucker (1:11:32)
Well, yeah. But things worked out for you.
Charles E. Davis (1:11:37)
Yeah.
John Tucker (1:11:38)
Yeah,
Charles E. Davis (1:11:38)
Yeah, they did.
John Tucker (1:11:43)
Okay, well, Mr. Davis, I cannot thank you enough for your time this morning. And there is a document that I need I need to get you to sign in order for me to donate this recording to the Joyner Library. But I have your address, and I'll mail it to you. And I'll include a an envelope with my return address and and postage.
Charles E. Davis (1:12:12)
Okay.
John Tucker (1:12:13)
All I'll ask is that that you sign it and then send it back when you have a chance, okay?
Charles E. Davis (1:12:19)
That's not a problem.
John Tucker (1:12:20)
And in the meantime, I want to warn you that I mentioned to the people at at the Joyner Library, ECU - J. Y. Joyner Library, I guess you remember.
Charles E. Davis (1:12:32)
Mmhm.
John Tucker (1:12:32)
Yeah. That that you were an interesting man, and that you had been an ECU student, and they might want to interview you as well. And so I gave them the information that Barton College had given me and they said that they would contact you later on. Okay, so don't be surprised if, I think the - Alston Coburn is the name of our archivist, and her assistant is Patrick Cash. So if those people reach out to you, don't don't be surprised, okay? And I might be back in touch.
Charles E. Davis (1:13:12)
That's fine. That's fine.
John Tucker (1:13:14)
I'm very appreciative of the role that you played in the in the transformation of East Carolina. One last question. One more question I have to ask. Do you remember hearing about Laura Marie Leary when you were there at East Carolina? Does that name mean anything to you? Laura Marie Leary?
Charles E. Davis (1:13:36)
No, not today it doesn't.
John Tucker (1:13:38)
Okay. She has, she has come to be known in ECU history as the first full-time African American student, okay? She enrolled in 1962, graduated in 1966 with a degree in, in business. And she - she was the first her first year 1962 - fall of 1962. She was the only black student at ECU.
Charles E. Davis (1:14:07)
I believe that, yeah.
John Tucker (1:14:09)
She later married. And her married name was Elliot. She since passed away. She spent most of her professional life in Washington, D.C. working for the government. But she was, she goes down in ECU history as our first black student.
Charles E. Davis (1:14:29)
[Unclear] Did she live off campus?
John Tucker (1:14:32)
I think from what I've read, I've only - I've met her one time before she passed away. She got - She had cancer. And it was about four years ago. I believe it was that she passed away. Talk to her about her experiences and she said she said it was it was a trial for her to be at East Carolina. because the students -
Charles E. Davis (1:14:57)
She said a what?
John Tucker (1:14:58)
A trial.
Charles E. Davis (1:15:00)
Yeah, yeah. I understand.
John Tucker (1:15:03)
The students were not welcoming.
Charles E. Davis (1:15:06)
Nope.
John Tucker (1:15:06)
She was - when when she was first assigned a roommate in her dorm. The roommate immediately asked to be assigned to a different room.
Charles E. Davis (1:15:16)
Yep.
John Tucker (1:15:17)
And that kind of thing continued the entire for her four years at East Carolina. She said - she was a nice woman. She was polite as she could be. But she said, those were not the best memories, the best years of my life in terms of generating positive memories. And it would be decades before she would return to Greenville to visit the campus because she didn't have any any good memories of it.
Charles E. Davis (1:15:48)
I understand.
John Tucker (1:15:50)
Now the story goes that Dr. Best - to return to Dr. Best, that it was Dr. Best who had identified her. She lived out towards Vanceboro in eastern North Carolina, a rural rural family but she was a smart girl. And Dr. Best had decided or he said, she can do the work at East Carolina and he knew Dr. Jenkins and he suggested to Dr. Jenkins, you - we need to integrate this school. And I've I've found a person who can who can meet the challenge and that was Laura - Leary. From what she said in an interview, she said that it was not her choice that if she had been told, or asked, Where did she want to go she would have gone to a historically black college or university - didn't want to be the first student at ECU she probably understood, that is not going to be fun. It's going to be...
Charles E. Davis (1:16:50)
No, and living in the dormitories... No.
John Tucker (1:16:54)
But she did. And she did it in part, according to her, because it was what her parents wanted her to do, it was what Dr. Best wanted her to do. And she was a good daughter, a good friend, and all that and so she went to went ahead and did it but -
Charles E. Davis (1:17:13)
Yeah, yeah.
John Tucker (1:17:14)
Anyway, anyway, so she's become, she's become quite famous in ECU history. She was the first but there was -
Charles E. Davis (1:17:23)
I don't remember her. But see, remember, I lived off campus my first year for the most part.
John Tucker (1:17:29)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (1:17:30)
So my my time at ECU was when I walked down to that school in the morning, I'd go to my classes, I'd eat some lunch, and I'd walk back across town. I didn't know anything about hardly anybody on campus my first year. I'd met one or two people off campus that I knew.
John Tucker (1:17:55)
Okay and it was your second year, sophomore year that you were up College Hill, is that right?
Charles E. Davis (1:18:02)
Yeah. Second year I moved - I lived on campus for the first semester - first quarter. Plus we organized SOULS. I spent more time in the Student Union and got to meet more people.
John Tucker (1:18:15)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (1:18:16)
Yeah.
John Tucker (1:18:18)
And then your your third year, 67-68, were you living off campus again?
Charles E. Davis (1:18:25)
Yeah. Yeah. All the time, the whole time.
John Tucker (1:18:29)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (1:18:30)
And that was party time, a little bit.
Janet Davis (1:18:37)
He didn't understand that.
Charles E. Davis (1:18:38)
Yeah. Oh, yeah. And I lived off campus 67-68.
John Tucker (1:18:44)
Okay.
Charles E. Davis (1:18:47)
Sure did.
John Tucker (1:18:50)
Well, again, I thank you. I see it's(11:38)is it's we've we've taken a lot more time than I imagined. And I cannot thank you enough - say how much I appreciate your time and your, your memories, your contribution to East Carolina and our development as an institution. So Mr. Davis, thank you so much, okay. And I'll be in touch okay, I'll send you that letter cause I need your signature on that piece of paper to -
Charles E. Davis (1:19:23)
[Unclear] Get it to me and I'll get right back to you.
John Tucker (1:19:25)
Okay, okay. You have a good day, okay?
Charles E. Davis (1:19:28)
Okay, you too.
John Tucker (1:19:29)
Thank you. Bye bye.
Charles E. Davis (1:19:31)
Bye bye.
[End of Recording]
