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Oral History Interview
Joey Crutchfield, Interviewee
Daniel Ferkin, Interviewer
January 25, 2015
East Carolina University
Daniel Ferkin (0:03)
My name is Daniel Ferkin. I am the Assistant university archivist, and today is January 25, 2025. It's Friday, about 1:30pm, and I'm going to start by asking our first question. Please tell us your full name, when and where you were born.
Joey Crutchfield (0:29)
My name is Joseph Calvin Crutchfield Jr. Everybody calls me Joey. I was born August 23 1958. I was born in the city of Roanoke, Virginia, but I grew up in Fayetteville.
Daniel Ferkin (0:41)
Oh. So when did you move from Roanoke to Fayetteville?
Joey Crutchfield (0:48)
Well, my dad was in the Air Force, and so we moved several places, but we left Roanoke. He was out of the air force by then. We left Roanoke in 1972 I think, and I graduated from high school in 1976.
Daniel Ferkin (1:05)
Which high school was that?
Joey Crutchfield (1:06)
71st.
Daniel Ferkin (1:07)
Okay, and that was in,
Joey Crutchfield (1:09)
It's in Fayetteville.
Daniel Ferkin (1:11)
So you had mentioned that your father was in the Air Force. Um, what do you know anything like about his like background when he joined, and?
Joey Crutchfield (1:21)
Yeah, he joined in 1956 I think, and was basically working with radios and that kind of stuff. He was a guy that fixed the radios and things like that, and I do know this, when he got out of the air force in the 60s, he interviewed for jobs at Piedmont Airlines to be part of their radio electronics, or whatever they called it back then, and he didn't get hired. And of course, back then, Piedmont was a closed shop, which meant only white males could be in and so here's a man of color, a Native American man. They didn't hire him, even though he, according to my father, he scored what he needed to score, and the foreman of that shop told him, he said, I can't hire you. You know, you know, I can't hire you. So he dealt around a little bit, and in it finally getting work on with IBM and retired IBM in management. So, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (2:30)
Did your mother work at any...?
Joey Crutchfield (2:35)
Yeah, my mother worked as well. She sometimes worked in the education system, being a teacher's aide. She also worked at a doctor's office. That's what, basically what she did. So she kind of did more secretarial, clerical, educational work.
Daniel Ferkin (2:50)
Okay, yeah. You had mentioned moving around a bunch. Were there any other places kind of in between?
Joey Crutchfield (2:59)
Yeah, I lived in Little Rock, of course, Roanoke, Fayetteville, then I moved to Winston, Salem, went to college at Wake Forest, before transferring to East Carolina in 1978. And then lived in Atlanta for just a little bit, and then came back, got married and came back to Greenville.
Daniel Ferkin (3:21)
Okay, yeah, you've been here for,
Joey Crutchfield (3:22)
Yeah, been here since, on since 1984. Yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (3:28)
That is really neat, and just getting to see pretty much... I know I moved around a bit when I was a kid. My dad was a professor, but, um, just like, how is that having those like experiences of seeing these different places?
Joey Crutchfield (3:45)
I think it makes you much more well rounded. You know, being in Fayetteville before the Vietnam War ended, and then right when the war ended, a lot of the people that were leaving Vietnam, as we call them, refugees, were coming to Fayetteville. And so when you would go to a high school where several different languages are being spoken, different cultures, it was really a great thing. You know, that part I really enjoyed about Fayetteville, and even at 71st was all the different cultures and the friends that I had and eating different foods and learning about different music and things like that.
Daniel Ferkin (4:25)
So I think about, um, by the time you're in high school, segregation would have been kind of being phased out or something?
Joey Crutchfield (4:39)
But, well, actually, by the time I started first grade, it was on. I started, I entered school in 1964, so we're looking at the civil rights bill being signed the next year right, right around that time. But it still took a while in the south, you know, you know, up into the 70s, to some places like that. I remember in the first grade going to a school which my great aunt was my teacher, another Native American woman, and had a very comfortable experience, very nurturing, just feeling great far as learning. And then we moved from my grandparents house, because one of the things a lot of native people do is they do that extended family, go and live with the grandparents. And my father actually was a fireman for the city of Roanoke. He was the first non-white fireman ever hired in the city of Roanoke. So we're moving on up, like the Jefferson's saying. And so we move out into the suburbs in an all white neighborhood, it has a country club. We're one of the first families of color to move there. And so I go to this school in the second grade, and for 59 years, that means, you know, because I'm 66 now, I carried around this poison inside of me, and the poison was that I had this teacher, and I won't mention her name, but if she's living, I don't think she would be but I won't say her name, but the way she devalued me, dehumanized me, treated me as this little seven year old kid in the second grade, was really traumatic. And I didn't understand it then, and I said until recently, if I ever saw her again, I would say some really vile, foul things to her that would embarrass my grandmother, my mother, and embarrassing myself. And then one day it hit me that what I needed to do was to thank her, because everything she did as a teacher, I did the complete opposite, and I went into education, became an educator, and because of that, I have great relationships with my students, former students, now, and I'm a very wealthy- not financially wealthy, but far as my mental health, my spiritual health, my emotional health, wealth, health-wealth. It is, I'm rich. I'm rich. And so I would tell that teacher, I want to thank you so much for teaching me.
Daniel Ferkin (7:06)
Everything she did not to do, pretty much.
Joey Crutchfield (7:11)
Yeah, yeah, but it took me a while to understand that, which maybe gave me great empathy and sympathy for students I encountered over the years. You know, because understanding how it's easy to throw them away and everything.
Daniel Ferkin (7:23)
Yeah, just the education experience does vary from student to student, and just being able to kind of-
Joey Crutchfield (7:31)
Well, to be a human being, yeah, that's the main thing. It's just to be a human being, and we've really got to do that.
Daniel Ferkin (7:39)
So I guess you can fast forward a little bit through, like, elementary, middle school, or junior high through high school. How was that education experience for you, and anything that you took away from that?
Joey Crutchfield (7:55)
I was kind of like, you know, today, we would probably call myself a nerd, but a nerd in a good way, because I could, I learned to walk in both worlds. I learned to walk in this indigenous world, and I love to walk in the other world. Maybe three worlds, because you had to walk in the African American community as well, too. And I never fit- would fit in any of them, just kind of was all by myself, and I had great parents. My parents, I have, I'm the oldest of four and then I have a younger sister from my father, but she didn't grow up with us. And so, but my mother and my father had a unique ability to make each of us feel like we're the only child, so then we never had to compete against each other. So if I was interested in chemistry, my father would find some way to buy me a chemistry set. If my brother wanted to play football or whatever, whatever it was, my parents found a way to do it. My- one of my aunts was actually a great aunt. Worked for a doctor, she was a domestic for a doctor. And so she was always getting these books, and she would give them to my father, and my father would give them to me, and I would read them, you know, it would be all kind of just crazy stuff. And so whatever I wanted to do, whether it was learn about tadpoles turning to frogs, or having pet lizards or a pet snake or birds or whatever. My parents allowed me to do it. They, you know, they encouraged that creativity, that curiosity, so I never felt like I was a nerd.
Daniel Ferkin (9:32)
A very supportive environment.
Joey Crutchfield (9:34)
Yeah, yeah, and learning was always fun. They encouraged us to learn and everything, and I'm glad, because, you know, I was an avid reader then, and still avid reader now, and that's the key, is just taking you going in places you never go. So that always stays with you. Yeah, yeah. So, you know, far as education in middle school, high school, I was always, you know, taking those, those classes that had to challenge me, to do that, make me think critically and all that. And I'm glad, at the time, sometimes I didn't appreciate, like, wow, you know, I've got to do a research paper. I'm only in the eighth grade, and I got into, you know, have footnotes and all that. Wait a minute, you know? But that kind of stuff really prepared me for life, and I'm glad I had that exposure.
Daniel Ferkin (10:21)
So going into like, high school, you kind of had some idea of what you were interested, or it was all...?
Joey Crutchfield (10:30)
Not really, I think the only thing I really knew don't want to do is, well, I wanted to help people. I didn't know really what I wanted to because, you know, I went to Wake Forest, and was a great place to be. It really, really, really prepared me that freshman year, the classes I were taking and the rigor that was had, and all that really prepared me for the rest of my college career and after that as well. I didn't realize it at the time, but it really did. I had good study habits already, but that became a great student doing that part during that time. And I love to learn. I love checking out books and reading and finding things out that I didn't know. And today, which is kind of crazy, is it's so easy to find out stuff, and I feel like people in general, are less intelligent now than they were, you know, 60 years ago, 50 years ago, and it's all exposed to because they don't really, really, maybe they can read it, but they don't critically think about stuff. And so that's why I'm thankful that I had those teachers that were really good teachers. Here's something that's interesting. A lot of times after integration, a lot of the teachers- the teachers of color, the African American, a few Native American teachers I had, were really good teachers. I mean, they were the best, but oftentimes they weren't hired. And so they closed those schools down and shipped us to those other schools, but yeah, and here's the thing about it, a lot of those teachers in those places were not nearly as good, and that's probably, in my opinion, where we've had the downfall in our education system, is that, that empathy of those teachers caring about those students, you know, you lived in the same community, like my first grade teacher, of course, she was my great aunt, but everybody knew my grandfather, knew my parents because she taught my parents, she taught me, you know, so and she already knew me, you know. And so that whole family thing. And there's a book out that down, I can't think of the author, but it says, it takes the village to raise a reader. And-
Daniel Ferkin (12:42)
I wonder if that was LeVar Burton.
Joey Crutchfield (12:44)
No, it's not LeVar Burton, but it's a lady who is a professor. She has a doctorate. And because it's so critical, and that's why I tell even my former students, they're now parents the first time, buy books. Don't buy the little video game, buy books read to your child even before the your child can child can talk, read to your child while your child is inside his mother's womb and read and read and read. You can give him that video game later, but get that curiosity going for the spoken language and the word and everything. So I mean that study shows as a different part of your brain operating whether you're reading something on text or listening to it, we got to read.
Daniel Ferkin (13:24)
Yeah, being in the library, that's-
Joey Crutchfield (13:27)
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (13:28)
It's always-
Joey Crutchfield (13:30)
And critically think.
Daniel Ferkin (13:31)
Yes. So-
Joey Crutchfield (13:33)
I would say I've had a good education. I mean, like I said, I had some great teachers. I had far more great teachers and I had bad teachers. I did have some bad teachers, but I had far more great teachers. And what I'm thinking about is they recognize this little brown, little boy, Indian boy, right here, and encouraged me to learn. So I'm thankful for that.
Daniel Ferkin (13:58)
That left like the lasting impression to want to, like continue into education.
Joey Crutchfield (14:04)
Yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (14:04)
Become a teacher yourself.
Joey Crutchfield (14:05)
Yep, yep, yep. I want to teacher as English teacher, Mr. Powell, Mason Powell, who really, really had the rigor and challenged me to learn. I mean, I'm reading in middle school, eighth grade, seventh grade, all sorts of books that- the Iliad, the Dante, all that stuff that was way over my head, you know that, but he's encouraged me to read that stuff. And I'm like, why I have to read this? That book is really thick. But I'm so glad that I got to read, you know, reading Don Quixote and all that stuff, and, you know, didn't appreciate it then, but I appreciate it now. Yeah, so, because it made me think, it made me figure things out and critically think, so I'm thankful for that now. Not back then, but now. Yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (14:53)
Yeah. So, you had mentioned attending Wake Forest. You had graduated from high school and kind of deciding where to go for college, what, how did that like process go?
Joey Crutchfield (15:14)
There were- there were a few Native Americans that at my high school, 71st, most of them were Lumbee, and the state had allowed, I guess, because there weren't as many Native students attending college. So the state had sent in, for all a lack of better words, a counselor that helped us navigate through that stuff. And, I was set on going to University of North Carolina, and I got accepted East Carolina as well. So my first choice was Carolina, probably Duke. I got accepted Duke as well. Duke was out of the price range for us. Even with scholarships, it was out of the price range because it would have been three of us in college at the same time, and was set going to Carolina and did a visit and went to Wake Forest, and just loved, fell in love with the environment and everything, and decided that's where I wanted to go. And this was a big challenge for me, because only one other person from my high school went there, so I knew no one. I knew no one, whereas coming to East Carolina, I would have known a lot of people, but I wanted to step out and just- that challenge of being someplace different.
Daniel Ferkin (16:29)
Like a new experience.
Joey Crutchfield (16:31)
It was a complete new experience, being a native kid going there in a predominantly white institution. There was one other Native student there at the time, and he left after one semester, and so I felt like I told somebody. I felt like I was a goldfish placed in a bowl, and that bowl was placed in the front window of the pet store, and everybody walked by and saw, hey, look at that goldfish.
Daniel Ferkin (16:54)
So it's, um, kind of like it's more noticeable to everyone else at this-
Joey Crutchfield (17:05)
Well, at least the reality yeah it was, for to me, it was because I stood out. Because you have to remember, at that time in the 70s, at Wake Forest, the majority of people of color were athletes. That doesn't mean that doesn't mean that they didn't have to meet the standards because they did, but there just wasn't other people getting in solely on their academic credentials. And so that was always- it felt like I was always on question. You know about it? You know? I don't know, that's what it felt like. That's my reality. Yeah, you know, was it true? It was to me, and that's really all it made a difference to me. And that wasn't taking anything from any of the students there, or even the professors, the teachers I had because they were wonderful. They were wonderful. And like I said, that foundation was great for me because it carried me through the rest of my college career. When I transferred to East Carolina, I already had my good study skills on that, and people always said was Wake Forest harder? No no. And being an education major, it wasn't really that hard cognitively. It was like anything else, It was learning stuff. But the preparation I had from high school and from that freshman year really set the tone for me finishing at this institution and enjoying it, loving it. So, yeah.
Joey Crutchfield (18:15)
Just being able to learn what you love.
Joey Crutchfield (18:39)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So when I came here, came to Wake Forest, I didn't know, and when I came to East Carolina, I still thought maybe I wanted to do something in medicine. But the reality really, really was, was I really wanted to help people. And what happened was I majored in special education. The summer before I came here, I had worked, or actually went to DC to visit a relative, and he worked- in those days they called it a sheltered workshop. Today, they don't call it that, but then the back in those days, they did. And was working with people that will say intellectual disabilities. There was another word they used back then, yeah, but I don't use that word, but yeah. And they were adults, and at first I was very standoffish, because I was like ehh, but then I saw that they were human beings, just like me, and got in and did it. And really enjoyed that, the little things. And the field of special education was wide open. Public law 94 142, it just started with President Carter signing that, and this whole thing was exploding with special education. And so the special education department at East Carolina was kind of new and innovating- innovating and exciting, and I wanted to be part of that. And it was, it really was, it was, if you say it was fun, it was fun. So that's what I did. Ended up, um, with a degree in special education, and started from there, and the rest is history.
Daniel Ferkin (20:07)
So, um, when you're at Wake Forest, before you transferred to ECU, had you, uh, set your mind to a special education? Or, were you still...?
Joey Crutchfield (20:18)
I was still in... I loved English, and so I have a English degree too, with the special education. So, it really again, it goes back to that reading and writing, all that always came easy for me. So, you know the thing, if you can make money for something you love, you have a good life. That is true. If you don't love it on how much money you make, it's gonna be miserable. If you can make money from something you love and not- you don't have to be a lot of money, but you can make money from it, you'll have a great life.
Daniel Ferkin (20:54)
Yes, find the career that really speaks to you.
Joey Crutchfield (20:58)
Yes, yes. And I took a break from education for a little bit, I went to work for Piedmont US Airways as a flight attendant, and got to travel and visit other countries, other school systems and all that, and that even added to it as well, and bought that back to the classroom as well. So it- I've had a great life.
Daniel Ferkin (21:17)
Being a flight attendant would be an experience, and we can get back to that, yeah, but, um, I guess, like coming to East Carolina, was there any specific decision that you'd like seeing, like the school, or...
Joey Crutchfield (21:34)
Um, I knew a lot about East Carolina, had done the visit and all that, and I had a lot of friends already here, and so that was important to- I didn't want to reinvent myself again and go to a place and just walk in someplace completely where I didn't know anyone like I did in Wake Forest, so coming to East Carolina, I had friends I went to high school with, and I knew they were here, and that was important too. Yeah. So it was a good choice, and it was close- still close enough to Fayetteville at the time, you know, so and more importantly, eventually, it would have been three of us in school at one time. Going to a state school versus a private school. My parents weren't rich, you know, so that that definitely was, was a decision making too. Even though my father said don't worry about it, that just wasn't fair to- I felt it wasn't fair to the rest of my siblings to be draining them financially. So, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (22:33)
Yeah. I know that the school being founded as like a teacher's college, and having like the education program here being, like, sort of at the forefront, especially at the- through it's first few decades. Um, did that have any influence on it?
Joey Crutchfield (22:50)
It definitely did because, I mean, there were some great professors here at the time. You know, sometimes you think education is a, you know, easy major. It isn't, it isn't, it's a difficult major, you know, and I always say, I don't think anyone can really teach you how to become a teacher. You're born a teacher. The only thing that can happen is you develop those skills. You know, you may have professors who know this subject matter so well, but they couldn't teach it. They're experts, but they couldn't teach it. And so, that's what I'm saying. Great teachers are born, they're not made, you know? And I had some great teachers here. Again, I'm lucky that I had people in my life that were just great at what they did.
Daniel Ferkin (23:42)
Were there any like, professors that you can remember that just like, stood out, like, or a moment in class where you're just like-
Joey Crutchfield (23:49)
Yeah. Dr Day Powers, who was a EC professor. Dr Charles Coble who was in the science department. Dr John Richards, who was head of the special eds department. All those- Dr Giles, a lot of those people are really there. Dr Betty Long. I mean, just some great- I'm talking about people in the educational field were the best of the best. And they were here at East Carolina, and I got to study under them, and you know, no doubt, use what I learned from them in my classroom.
Daniel Ferkin (23:49)
Just learning from the best.
Joey Crutchfield (23:49)
Yeah, learning from the best, yeah, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (23:49)
Is there any like, projects or anything that you had worked on in undergrad that you can remember that stood out?
Joey Crutchfield (23:55)
Yeah, you know, a lot of the classes, you know, you... you had to think critically. And I remember, I had a music class, and I had to design a music instrument. And so I designed a music instrument for a child with disabilities, and I based it on, and I don't know the exact name of the instrument, but it's an African museum instrument that kind of plays like it's got little things on it, and you play it and it vibrates. And so I designed one for a blind, and a child that had a hearing impairment, and the professor kept it. You know, I've designed it and made it, I should say, so, and the professor kept it.
Daniel Ferkin (25:26)
That must've left an impression.
Joey Crutchfield (25:28)
Yeah, so it worked, yeah. But I liked it. I liked doing things like that, like the challenge of it, you know, a little bit-
Daniel Ferkin (25:35)
Yes, just... that is like a unique experience.
Joey Crutchfield (25:39)
Yeah, it was. It was. Not just design an instrument, but design an instrument specifically for a special population. So, that I enjoy, I love that making me think outside the box.
Daniel Ferkin (25:51)
Yeah, being able to kind of be creative with helping people.
Joey Crutchfield (25:55)
And that was important in the type of students, the population I taught all through- all through those years, I got to work with students whose, who was, were turned off by school, and especially English, and in trying to make it so that they loved it. I remember one year I taught an English class, and these were learners in it that just did not- their reading levels were really low, but they were okay as far as intellectual abilities, but they hated school, and more importantly, they hated reading. And we read Romeo and Juliet, and I showed him West Side Story. Now what's really interesting was, it's a musical. I didn't think the guys would love it, would like it, but they loved it. They would come back. Can we watch that movie again? And then I thought, wait a minute, I must be doing something right when my kids said, hate to read, and we're watching the movie, and then we're comparing. So how is this movie? Like Romeo and Juliet and another and all that, and they get it, and they get turned on to it, and loved reading Romeo and Juliet. You know, who would have thought that?
Daniel Ferkin (26:56)
Oh yeah, it's all about, like, changing that perspective, like this can be fun.
Joey Crutchfield (27:02)
To kill a mockingbird. They would- I'll see some students out in the community, and they'll say, you know, you made it so much fun. And I still remember that book, and I still have that book, and you made it fun for us to do it. And that- I was like, wow, that's what it's about. You know, that's what about.
Daniel Ferkin (27:19)
Having like students so many years later, come back and be like, I remember that.
Joey Crutchfield (27:22)
Yeah, yeah, exactly, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (27:28)
Let's see. So, guess we can talk about your overall experience attending East Carolina as a student, just you'd mention, like, really enjoying the education program here. Is there anything that like else that stood out in your time as a student here? Whether it be academics or?
Joey Crutchfield (27:53)
I got to learn some leadership abilities one year- I think my senior year- I was president of the Student Council for Exceptional Children, which was an organization of students. I was an RA in the dorm, Dr Jim Westmoreland, who was kind of worked with him, C.C. Rowe, who was Dean of Men in my adult life, I got to work with him at the community college level. He and I would taught together there, and he was my boss, because I think he was Associate Dean of Men at the time when I was here. You know. Fast forward 30 years later, I'm working with him, you know. So, I think the biggest thing was the experience allowed me to become the human being that I am now. It was a positive experience. It was- it was a good experience. I don't have anything negative to say about East Carolina at all, other than back in those days, we didn't have computers, and to get your classes, you had to get these little card things. You had to wait these long lines and all that stuff, but everybody did that, you know.
Daniel Ferkin (29:04)
Our division director John Lawrence, I believe he was here about mid late 70s as well. He had mentioned the extremely long lines for registering for classes and making sure you are in the right spot, and-
Joey Crutchfield (29:19)
Oh, oh, oh. It's so often you were in the wrong line and you had to start in another line. Or if a class filled up, you had to go and get special permission, and then, you know, you had to go back to the advisor. It was- that was not- that was the worst part. That was- everybody was going through it, yeah? So, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (29:37)
Definitely registering online now has simplified that.
Joey Crutchfield (29:42)
Yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (29:44)
Were there any specific challenges that you had faced?
Joey Crutchfield (29:48)
For me, personally, I had- I didn't experience anything negativity when I was at East Carolina, I'm not saying it wasn't there. I was in the band. I was in the marching band, so I had those friends there. I was an RA my senior year and in my junior year, basically it was like being in a fraternity, because I was with my friends, some from high school and all that. Yeah, yeah. So the support systems were there for me. I never felt alone or anything. Maybe the biggest thing was, you know, knowing that we're not a lot of Native Americans on campus, but that was, you know, you adjusted to that as well. Nobody treated me any differently, at least I didn't feel like it, either from students or professors. Maybe the other way around. They, you know, they welcomed me more, so.
Daniel Ferkin (30:43)
I was just curious about your experience in band. Um, I've been in marching band in high school, on the drum line. I was just wondering if you had any, uh, fond memories of that.
Joey Crutchfield (30:53)
At the time, you know, East Carolina was marching a whole lot of people, probably, I know a lot more than that was in the band then, because the music majors are required to be in the band, and the band was great. And I'm not saying the band isn't great now. The band was great, and it was the core style, and I just imagined it was a lot of rehearsal time, people took pride in it, and it was, it was the best experience ever, you know. I played trumpet, but I had friends over to the drum line, and, it was the best.
Daniel Ferkin (31:26)
Getting to be out on half time into all the football games.
Joey Crutchfield (31:30)
And going to the football games. It was the best, it was the best. You know, and I did that all- every time I was here. So I was a senior still marching. You know, a lot of seniors didn't march, but it was so much fun for me that I thought I wasn't going to give that up. I was sad when I had to give it up, you know, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (31:47)
I do look back at it like well, at least I can remember being [unintelligible], I wish I could do that again.
Joey Crutchfield (31:55)
Yeah. And you know, I still watch a lot of the core stuff on YouTube and all that and everything, because- because I know how much hard work it goes into it to sound, to learn the music, to perfect it, you know. So, yeah, it was a good experience. The best.
Daniel Ferkin (32:11)
Were there any other organizations or activities that you were involved in, whether it be in the education department or special education or just outside, like extracurricular activities?
Joey Crutchfield (32:23)
The main thing was, everything was done either through [???], which is the East Carolina native American organization, which that was after I left East Carolina. But while I was here, it wasn't active. But after I left and came back, I was involved in that. But when I was here in the 70s and 80s, it was mainly the marching pirates being in student housing, being an RA, and doing intramurals and things like that, being Student Council for Exceptional Children, which was like, again, I talked about that being part of a student organization, and just doing things like that. Through those organizations, you're always doing something with the community, to get involved in the community. I mean, when you were with Christmas caroling, and then another time we would pick up a kid and take them someplace, or doing things like that, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (33:19)
And like, tour a museum or something along that?
Joey Crutchfield (33:21)
Yeah, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (33:22)
That'd be really fun.
Joey Crutchfield (33:23)
Yeah, yeah. College was a great experience. It was great.
Daniel Ferkin (33:27)
While you're here, were there any events or visitors, notable or otherwise?
Joey Crutchfield (33:38)
I remember [???] Ferguson came, which was a great trumpet player. The band Styx, I remember really well. There were a lot of concerts and things here. Was always something to do. Like, one year it did snow, and it was probably three feet of snow, three or four feet of snow, compared to three inches, yeah. And it really shut down everything up on the hill, I mean, and the snowball flights and things like that. And we were out of class for a while for that. And it's, it was a late snow, was like in March.
Daniel Ferkin (34:07)
Oh.
Joey Crutchfield (34:08)
And so it was, or, yeah, it was like March. And so it had a lot of moisture. And you can imagine, back then, there was no equipment. So, yeah, you couldn't go anywhere. And believe it or not, in those days you could cook in the dorm. We had a little hot plate.
Daniel Ferkin (34:25)
Oh, they will not let you have that.
Joey Crutchfield (34:26)
No, no, that's, that's how bad it was. And so we all got together in the dorm, and because nothing was open, and we put together, and you put, you put some green beans, and then corn, and maybe somebody had some hamburger you could get all you made your little goulash, and you ate it together like that. So that kind of thing.
Daniel Ferkin (34:26)
Really nice.
Joey Crutchfield (34:28)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So those things, like you kind of remember you buying on it, a little bit over it, and just think, recall how at the time it was actually fun. You know, it was fun? Yeah? Yeah, yeah. So great, great time. Great time. Yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (35:05)
Is there anything like, while you're in college that you got to see, like, around Greenville? Like, how was like town life, like, for like, the college students?
Joey Crutchfield (35:17)
There was definitely, and it may still be that way. Now, I don't know, because I don't go out like that, but you gotta remember, it's the height of disco, or right at disco, and so you had the clubs, even the Attic. I mean going to the Attic, let's say those bands, the disco air with the club called the Elbow Room. There was the Jolly Roger, there was Chapter 10, there was Pantana Bob's. All those places were, you know, places could go. Pantana Bob's is basically, you could just drink beer and play pool and all that kind of stuff. But it was, it was a wide variety of stuff. I don't think that the community outside that East Carolina community, interacted, at least, in my experiences were, he kind of stayed in that little area. You didn't wander too far away. There might have been some other clubs, but I didn't, I didn't go to them. I was just kind of in that little area.
Daniel Ferkin (36:05)
You know, for the college students.
Joey Crutchfield (36:11)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joey Crutchfield (36:17)
But seeing how the town grew, you know, from there was at the at the time, which we call, I don't know, what's the name of the mall now, whatever the name of the mall here is now. It was a plaza then, it wasn't even a mall, it was like an outdoor shopping plaza type thing. So those kind of things like that. I think I remember when Belk was still downtown before they moved and all that. So, so it was a little different. And then, of course, you didn't have the Walmarts and all that stuff. There was more local stuff, things like that. I do remember that.
Daniel Ferkin (36:52)
Something was a more kind of small town.
Joey Crutchfield (36:54)
It was at a very small town. Many of the restaurants, fast food restaurants, were closed during summer before, between, between graduation and in summer school for those two or three weeks, three weeks or whatever, they would close, because nobody would be here.
Daniel Ferkin (37:09)
All the students would be
Joey Crutchfield (37:11)
Yeah, yeah. So that, I mean, that didn't happen today, but they would stop, and then they'll open back up when summer school started. That's really interesting. Yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (37:22)
So you graduated from East Carolina in what year?
Joey Crutchfield (37:28)
1980.
Daniel Ferkin (37:29)
1980. So you have your degree. And then what were you planning on doing?
Joey Crutchfield (37:36)
I started grad school and was teaching in Kinston, and then I went to Winston Salem, and I was doing grad school at App State, and then being in the right place at the right time, or the wrong place at the wrong time. I don't know how you look at it. I was looking at it far as the money aspect. I got an interview with Piedmont Airlines. Didn't ever want to do it anything. I almost didn't go to an interview, but one of the teachers, I was the youngest teacher at this school, she said, Go to it. Go to it. And I got hired, and I could make more money by not working than I did working every day. And it was a tough decision, because I loved teaching, but it was rough making... we made maybe $12,000 a year.
Daniel Ferkin (38:23)
Still, even back then,
Joey Crutchfield (38:25)
Yeah, yeah, so you're talking less than $1,000 a month. And of course, things were cheaper, but that was still making it. I mean, barely making it. And I did that. And of course, there was no distance learning and all that. So driving to Boone and all that made it hard to work on my masters and all that. Yeah, but I still make more money in a lot of teachers, I mean, more principals and so administration. So I did that for a while, and then came back into teaching. And, you know, I still kept my teaching credentials up that I needed to do to keep my license and all that stuff. So I never let that elapse. I kept it. I did everything I needed to do because I knew I one day I was going to go back and do teaching. I didn't know it would be almost 25 years later. But yeah, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (39:13)
So your experience, as I mentioned before, with the as a flight attendant, like just being able to travel and I'm sure, like all over the world. How was that?
Joey Crutchfield (39:28)
It was a great experience. The best thing, like you should say, it was like a part time job with full time pay. I got to later when I got married and had children, I could expose my children to many places and take them to different countries and they got that whole same kind of thing that, go see here, go there. We went places and just experienced it, but more importantly was just to see how all of us are alike with one another. And all those experiences I think, have rounded me and allowed me even when I came back, when I say, come back to the university, working with ECNAO in 1994 and then from there, we go on and establish the first Native American fraternity here in East Carolina in 1996. Epsilon Kai Nu becomes the first Native American fraternity, and two guys, one was an undergraduate and the other one was a graduate student. Matt Chavis was a graduate student, Quinn Lowry was an undergraduate student. They called me up and said, "Hey," and I knew them because we were in the Indian community. We sang together on a Native American drum. "We need to start with this fraternity, but we got to do a constitution." They had never written a constitution, but that experience of being with other organizations, knowing how to write a constitution, have the bylaws, all that stuff, we sat down, and then those days, everything was over in Mendenhall and the student center wasn't there. And we sat down on one of those old computers, Tandy type computers, and we typed the constitution to submit to the Student Government to become a club. And from there, we were able to grow into a fraternity. And it spread, you know, other chapters and other universities and so, but it started here in East Carolina, and so it is a great honor and privilege and pride to know that I had some part of that wasn't my idea. It was actually Quinn and Matt, but help guiding that was really important to me, and it felt good. So yeah, that's one of the most, one of my most proudest moments of being a pirate was being part of that, even though I wasn't enrolled at the school then. I have come back and enrolled and taking classes after that, and I was back enrolled again, back as a student again, you know, later on. And love it. And then my son comes here,
Daniel Ferkin (42:01)
Oh!
Joey Crutchfield (42:02)
And so, yeah, you know, it's like, yeah, yeah. It's the proudest moment, though, I think, is being in the fraternity. My son is also in the fraternity, father and son in the same fraternity. So all that just gives me great pride and joy and happiness. And I love this university. You know, it's home. It feels good. You know.
Daniel Ferkin (42:25)
You've made your mark on it and contributed a good bit.
Joey Crutchfield (42:29)
I hope that I have a great legacy. It's definitely put me in the position where I am today, without it. I'm not sure. I'm sure my life would have been different. I'm sure it would have been different. East Carolina prepared me for the world. Literally prepared me for the world, because I traveled all over the world. So it did prepare me. The people that I met along my journey at the university... Pat Dunn who's to be the mayor of Greenville. She was one of my professors, and I would see her sometimes on some of my flights.
Daniel Ferkin (43:08)
Oh.
Joey Crutchfield (43:09)
Yeah, Dr Westmoreland, we reconnected because he was on one of my flights. You know, that whole kind of thing like that, just really and that you remember those people and they remember you. That's really important, you know, so wouldn't change it. Wouldn't change it. I like, I'm blessed. I am. Yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (43:34)
I was just curious, like, being able to travel all over the world was there like, I know it's probably hard to pick, like, one place that would be like, wow, this was really outstanding.
Joey Crutchfield (43:44)
You're not gonna believe it when I tell you, nobody believes it. Believe it or not, Toledo Ohio. I love that place. And they go "What? Toledo, Ohio?" And the really reason was because it's that Midwestern thing. Was just so nice there, and the people were always really nice. Far as a foreign country, I probably would say...
Daniel Ferkin (44:13)
You could always just list it off.
Joey Crutchfield (44:15)
I think Ireland. I love Ireland, and for a couple reasons, I have Irish ancestry, and I understand why my European ancestors chose to settle in the part of Virginia, where my grandparents are from, and because it reminded them of Ireland, oh, the parts of Virginia up in The mountains, there was when I went to Ireland and got to see all that. I go, wow, now I know why they decided to come there. So that helped a little bit to reconnect to that part. You know, yeah, my indigenous ancestors are already there because they're already there. But my Irish ancestry, I now understand that.
Daniel Ferkin (45:01)
So I was getting to, like, experience that side of
Joey Crutchfield (45:05)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. It does give you a little bit insight who, you know, how and why. I always say, no matter where you come from, who you are at one time, your ancestors were tribal people. We forget that sometimes.
Daniel Ferkin (45:21)
Oh yeah.
Joey Crutchfield (45:22)
And we forget that connection we have to the land, to the sky, to the water and all that. Indigenous people, my indigenous ancestors, have passed that to me, and I've been able to maintain it longer, but at one time, everybody had to do it. Don't care where you come from, and that's what we're gonna have to do to get back, to get back to reconnect. So, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (45:46)
Let's see. So we've already kind of covered some of the stuff of your involvement at East Carolina since graduation. Was there anything like, kind of like, I guess just like on the smaller side of just being able to come back and visit or, like, see a professor that you had been in a class with, or participate in something,
Joey Crutchfield (46:15)
Yeah, you know, I've got to participate in with the school education. They used me to one of the teaching videos, and so, so they came in, and we got to get all the permission for the students to be in and all that. But it was so, it was kind of like being able to give back to the university, which is why I wanted to do that. And in this particular one video, there was a student in this video that, now no one knew this, I knew it, that was not engaging in the class. He was basically just slumped over sleeping and all that. And so I went to him and tried to engage him back and everything. Now the easy thing to do is, you can't sleep in class. You say, get out, go somewhere. But what the people filming, or everybody else watching it didn't know was this, this kid's background, why he was sleeping in my class. I knew it. And so one of the things that I in that video, what I try to tell teachers, future teachers, is a behavior is a form of communication. So someone's doing something that they don't normally do, and now they're knowing now they're doing it then, and they don't have the words to express it, or can't express it, or don't know how, or whatever, it's your job to find out why, because the easy thing would to do was like, You need to get out. You're sleeping. But what they didn't know was that kid was staying up all night with a sick mother and taking care of her. And so when he came to school, he hadn't slept. So I wanted him to sleep in my classroom, because I know that next teacher wasn't going to do that. Wasn't going to know that. So that's why I wanted to do it.
Daniel Ferkin (47:57)
Being able to have that understanding. Why?
Joey Crutchfield (48:00)
Yeah, exactly. So getting back to the university to use those videos in the classroom like that to help other teachers understand. The other thing we did was East Carolina had a program where they allowed students who had an IEP and had a learning disability to come to the university. And there were some, some things with it that the student with the learning disability at the university had to do. It had to take extra studies, support skills and all that. But I was the kids I was teaching, we helped develop that program, and they would, the kids would give me feedback. Students gave me fact, no, don't do that. So that was really important, and they use that information to help develop that program. So that was that was good, that so that part, those ties, make me feel really good, because I was able to give back to the university and maybe help a future teacher not be like that second grade teacher I had, and turn the kid completely off. But really, had the teachers that make that, water that flower and watch that flower bloom and become this beautiful rose, and then just smells good, and it provides joy and happiness to everyone. And that's the kind of teacher I want to do, and that's the kind of teacher I wanted to encourage future teachers to become. So that's, I think that's what my legacy is, that. And you know the fraternity, I go back to Epsilon Kai Nu, it's a Native American fraternity. When we say that it's has Native American philosophies, but anybody can be a part of it. In fact, it started with white guys, black guys, Native American guys, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (49:44)
Everyone coming together.
Joey Crutchfield (49:45)
Yes. And that's kind of one of the things we said. We said we were all from different nations. We come together as one. We actually say that, you know, because, again, like I said, no matter who you are, where you come from, one day you're one time, your people will travel and then a relationship. We've forgotten all that. Everything. So I'm really proud of that, that that that thing in itself I'm most proud of, the East Carolina native American organization, because it all came from it all kind of like was a the East Carolina native American organization was the umbrella, and things branched off. But without those things, it would have never happened. Would never happen.
Daniel Ferkin (50:21)
So that was 1994 with ECNAO.
Joey Crutchfield (50:26)
Yeah. It started in 94 and then, you know, you grew from the fraternity and all those things like that. Yeah. So by 1990 the fraternity actually was established at East Carolina, January 1, 1996, but so between from 94 to 95 was kind of that, whatever the process is you go through to be in a club, to be recognized, and then 1996 January 1, wasn't a fraternity.
Daniel Ferkin (50:50)
Yeah so, I would say, like when you had helped start with ECNAO, was there a plan for the fraternity? Or [???] mechanically,
Joey Crutchfield (51:02)
Not really. And one of the things I had really was, was cautioning them, the students about was, don't, because I know, you know, fraternities and all that paternal life and all that with sorority, you would start becoming more clickish and clannish. And one of the requirements to be in the fraternity was you also had to participate in ECNAO. You had to be a part of ECNAO. We didn't want it to be us versus them. It wanted to be us, you know. And then later on, the following year, the female startups, a sorority here, SOE, they were the second Native American sorority in the United States. So we're brother sister, but we're still, you know, it's like in the old days we had Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts. Well, the fraternity was, yes, we had those things like that that bonded us as males. And they didn't have to be just native, like it could be anything, and it females headers, but we still came together, which kind of was how our historical communities operated. You know, women had some roles. Men had some roles, but the roles were done to benefit each other, and they supported each other. Wasn't one was better than the other. They were together, and without one, the other couldn't operate.
Daniel Ferkin (52:19)
Yeah, the two, yeah, become one,
Joey Crutchfield (52:22)
Exactly. And that was one of the things I was worried about, was, was this cause that, you know, it's, it's really difficult right now, after COVID, even before COVID, the college kids have changed a little bit. You know, they'll not just here in East Carolina, but everywhere. Yeah, the interaction is with the social media and not with
Daniel Ferkin (52:43)
Not as much, yes, yeah, yeah. So especially with, you know, technology kind of more pervasive, yep, especially after COVID too. Yeah. So when you were kind of like helping establish the fraternity. What was that process like, your experience at the time? How are you like, feeling like, so like, excitement and then the stress of it? It
Joey Crutchfield (53:16)
Was never any stress. It was always an excitement. Because we're, you know, trying to come up with stuff and everything. You know, you wanted young males to have that experience, but you didn't want it to be like everything else. Yeah, you know, you didn't want it. The fraternity is very transparent in the intake operations of it. You didn't want it, you know, I'll put it this way. I'll put it this way, this I'll tell people, because my son is in his fraternity, why would I normally knowingly pay money? Because he wouldn't have the money for someone to do something to harm my son, which I wouldn't do to myself. So why would I pay money for any organizations to do something physically abusive, mentally abusive, abusive, spiritually, emotionally abusive to my son when I wouldn't do those things to my son myself. And so I wanted to make sure my influence in the fraternity that it didn't become that, yeah, it wasn't going to be that, you know, and where we are today, it's very transparent. Our philosophy is, if we got it and they, some people say they do that stuff to break them down to build them up. It's like, well, if we got to break you down to build you up, then, you know, good to us. We want people that are already built up. We want men who already who are there, free thinkers can do things, you know, and that's what we look for. As far as brothers that can come to our brotherhood. For example, there's a no alcohol clause or drug clause in this fraternity. Anything that's related with this fraternity, it cannot have alcohol, you know, and you're thinking like, and that's kind of a no for a lot of college kids. You mean, not gonna have this party. We can't
Daniel Ferkin (54:54)
Drink. Yeah, it's a lot of fraternities that's kind of there.
Joey Crutchfield (54:57)
Yeah, the whole thing stems around alcohol. Wow. And the reason being is because of the whole thing dealing with alcohol and Native American, the stereotypes with that, and the fact that if that's the only thing you wanted to do, then you don't need to be in a fraternity, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (55:16)
So it's a higher purpose, yeah,
Joey Crutchfield (55:18)
Yeah. So the having some of that influence with Matt and Quinn in the beginning to do that was really, really, really good, you know, and getting that we had to learn and develop. But from the start, you know, Matt, Matt's idea was to have this brotherhood of different people, Matt, Matt was on, I think, when he was working on his masters, he was the head counsel, whatever was in one of the dorms, Umstead, or one of those dorms over that camera, which one I think that's um said across, yeah, I think that's where he was. And he the guys in that dorm, is he? He knew, and that's how they all came together, started the fraternity. Oh, yeah, that
Daniel Ferkin (56:01)
Was really neat, yeah. And we're able to just kind of, you know what,
Joey Crutchfield (56:06)
Yeah, still going, Yeah,
Daniel Ferkin (56:08)
Being able to kind of set that tone, and yeah, 30 years later, yeah, it's still
Joey Crutchfield (56:14)
And the fact that it was the first one, yeah, here at East Carolina in the whole United States,
Daniel Ferkin (56:19)
For sure us, is, that's incredible. That is incredible. It is. It
Joey Crutchfield (56:24)
Is something very proud
Daniel Ferkin (56:25)
Of, yeah, what was like the reception from that? Just even, like, locally, but also like, was there like national attention
Joey Crutchfield (56:35)
For that? I think from that, it's spawned some other Native American fraternity, Phi Sigma Nu, which started in Pembroke. Actually, there supposed to been the same one, the same fraternity, because Matt knew some of those guys there. And then I think there's one that started in Arizona. I don't think they're still active right now. I mean, you got a very small pool of pool of men, Indigenous men, that are going to come to come to the university setting anyway, and to get them in the fraternity, it's even, even more challenging, and to attract other men who may not be indigenous, to come in when you have, you don't have the alcohol things, and you're, you know, all that it's, it's, it's, it's, you know, it's different, Yeah. And we want the different people, you know,
Daniel Ferkin (57:23)
So kind of embracing that, you know, it's like, we don't have to be like, Yeah, big. We're gonna Yeah, yeah,
Joey Crutchfield (57:29)
Yeah, and treat each other with respect and dignity. So that's important to me. Yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (57:38)
Do you remember any like, news articles are about that being mentioned? In, like, any papers or, yeah,
Joey Crutchfield (57:47)
I know we did a trip one time out that Texas Tech to try to get a chapter there, and it fell through because the contact person, which was, which was a faculty member, went to another university, so I knew there was a lot of excitement about that as well. Just trying to get it going. It's no use, no use reinventing the wheel. All the stuff has been established. If someone wanted to do it, we can give the whole thing to him, and so you don't have to go through the process of writing a constitution. It's all done. It's all done intake process. Everything's all done so far as a national thing, and we've done it so many times now that it would be really easy for someone to want to go
Daniel Ferkin (58:37)
And start it, reach out and be like, hey,
Joey Crutchfield (58:39)
Yeah, just get the people. We'll help you do the rest. Yeah, do you
Daniel Ferkin (58:43)
Know how big the fraternity is now?
Joey Crutchfield (58:47)
Alright, one time, we had a chapter in Hawaii, a chapter in Arizona, at chapter in NC State, at Pembroke here, East Carolina. We have graduate chapters now here in Pitt County, and one we call in the Piedmont section as well. How many act? How many brothers all together? I don't know how many active brothers are not considered active brothers who still kind of pay their dues, probably with the graduate and undergraduate chapters, I would say probably around 50. So it's still small. Yeah, still, yeah, yeah. And not only actors that they're paying their dues. So we have, we have an event this weekend, this this Sunday,
Daniel Ferkin (59:29)
Oh yeah, tech gonna be
Joey Crutchfield (59:32)
It's gonna be in Raleigh and carry and carry. So it's a group where everybody brings their families in. We all get together, and we're gonna be a Dave and Busters and eat hamburgers, hot dogs and play games nice, just to get together family, yeah, to see everyone, yeah, yeah, in a easy way of doing things, that's all, yeah, yeah, and
Daniel Ferkin (59:51)
Just maintaining that connections, yeah,
Joey Crutchfield (59:55)
Yeah. Hopefully I'll be the first grandfather Grandson. Little I'm looking forward to my grandson graduates in two years. So hopefully, you know, if there's not a chapter where he goes to school, maybe I help him get one started. So there'll be my legacy, my son and my grandson. That would be exciting. Yeah, I'm looking forward to that, not forward to me, but just knowing that something was a part of is still going on with my legacy and my grandson, you know? Oh,
Daniel Ferkin (1:00:23)
Yeah, no, just because being able to, like, help establish it, and then having your son involved, yeah,
Joey Crutchfield (1:00:30)
That's, yeah. It's sort of like when I look at the divine nine, those are the historically African American fraternities that are still going on. And how generations of great grandfather, you know, grandfather, you know, Father, Son, all that that I want us to be like that one day. Yeah,
Daniel Ferkin (1:00:48)
That is a legacy, just to be really proud of,
Joey Crutchfield (1:00:50)
Yeah. And know, that started here at East Carolina, yeah, yeah. I mean, they're not. The fraternity started at some universities and some of them have been around, you know, since the 1800s or whenever, way before then. But have one. I don't know if there was ever once actually started in East Carolina.
Daniel Ferkin (1:01:08)
I don't believe there was anything. I think all the fraternities
Joey Crutchfield (1:01:11)
Were already established. Yeah, pre existing, yeah. So the actually have a fraternity and a sorority actually started East Carolina is historical in itself, yeah. And I know some things have been written about that, and some publications and books like that, because I have read some things like that, about it, about it. So yeah, there's some coverage to it, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (1:01:36)
So have you been involved with other things in like, I guess local Greenville or Pitt County, since you've been back,
Joey Crutchfield (1:01:51)
Some things, mostly stuff I did was when I was teaching high school. Did things at school like that. Didn't do a whole lot outside of school. I did serve on the pirate Club board of directors here at Pitt County for a little bit. Let's see. That's about it. Really, I didn't have done a whole lot of outside stuff like that. I stayed pretty busy with in the native community. At the time, I was singing with a Native American drum, so going all over the place, and I don't do that as much now, just old age, but so it kind of slowed down a little bit.
Daniel Ferkin (1:02:33)
Which high school were you teaching at? DH Connelly, okay, how was that? Just it
Joey Crutchfield (1:02:38)
Was a great place, great place to be.
Daniel Ferkin (1:02:41)
And just being able to show everything that you had learned from all your experiences
Joey Crutchfield (1:02:48)
And sharing it, we had a Native American drum team there that was open to any student. And they were actually pretty good. They're actually pretty good. And had to give them credit. They were, they were really good, you know. And so that whole experience probably, were probably the only school in the state at the time they had one, you know, they've been, probably had some other school. But, you know,
Daniel Ferkin (1:03:09)
To me, high school, no,
Joey Crutchfield (1:03:11)
No. So it's, you know, that part is just be great, you know. And some of those kids may do something else with it, whatever. But the main thing, even if they were not, they because you didn't have to be indigenous to be on our drum team, but you got to respect other human beings, learn another culture, yeah, yeah. And that's what it's all
Daniel Ferkin (1:03:29)
About, being able to give like those students, especially the non Indigenous students, that experience outside something they normally wouldn't know.
Joey Crutchfield (1:03:39)
Yeah. And that's what a true education is, is to allow you to think, allow you to feel, allow you to experience, to hear, see, taste. You know, that's what it is about. That's how you grow as human beings too.
Daniel Ferkin (1:04:00)
Was there any just specific experiences while you're teaching at high school that really, like, stood out something that you're like, I'm really happy about this, or
Joey Crutchfield (1:04:13)
I'm happy when I'm in the community and someone comes up to me and say, are you, Mr. Crutchfield? And I may not. I might not have taught them directly, but they knew me for several reasons. One, I would always keep snacks, breakfast, snacks and things in the classroom. And so regardless if you were a student or not, if you were hungry, they would swing by, and I had a basket of stuff. They could reach in and grab something, just because kids are always hungry, just little things like that. You know, in the course I had sometimes had administration, why did I eat? I was like, Well, I can't teach them if they're hungry. Exactly.
Daniel Ferkin (1:04:47)
I mean, I don't know how many teachers I had in high schools, like, you can't eat in class. Yeah, and it's like, woke up at six. I haven't had any bad Yeah, exactly,
Joey Crutchfield (1:04:56)
You know, I can't teach them if they're hungry that, you know, I gotta take. Care of their immediate needs first, and then I can take care of all the other needs. When I see that, when I had a student told me, said the only reason I graduated high school was because of you that really, yeah, that really makes me feel really good. You know, you believe them, and you didn't get you didn't, you know, everybody else gave up on me. You didn't give up on me. You should have given up on me. You didn't that one.
Daniel Ferkin (1:05:25)
Yeah, it made all the difference to him, yeah? Or
Joey Crutchfield (1:05:28)
I'll see a student, and they'll say, I remember when we read such and such, you know, and I still remember it, you know, like, okay, all right. And they remember it, yeah, so that that's, that's what, that's why I'm rich in that kind of stuff like that. So I'm blessed with that,
Daniel Ferkin (1:05:47)
Yeah, just being able to, especially like, high school, you know, they're about to, like, go into college, becoming adults,
Joey Crutchfield (1:05:58)
Yeah. And you never know how much you're going to influence someone my first year teaching, this has happened in December, November. Excuse me, November. I had a student that I taught 1981 maybe he is now a minister. He's in his 50s now, so I wasn't much older when I taught him there. He's a minister, and he started a non profit foundation, and so he asked me to be the guest speaker. Oh, and we reconnected on Facebook and all that and he told me, he said, The reason I do the things I do is because the influence you did. I was like, man, and you were 10 years old when I was teaching you. I was like, probably 2122 so long as I wasn't much older than him at the time. And he says, Well, I dress the way I dress now because of you. And I thought, what? Because you were always, you know, you had a coat and tie. You always professional. And I always emulated that throughout my whole career. And then he's a minister now, he says, I don't go anywhere without having to, you know, looking right presentable. So, you know, that makes me feel good that, but you don't know what kind of influence you're going to have. Just like that teacher in the second grade didn't know what kind of influence she had upon me. It could have been a negative thing. But luckily, I had other great teachers that were able to do that. But it still took, like I said, 59 years for me to finally let that go and realize that I've been looking at it the wrong way, that she really helped me.
Daniel Ferkin (1:07:31)
Going back to, you know, lifetime of learning, that's it, that's it. Come back to you, that's
Joey Crutchfield (1:07:36)
It, that's it, that's it. So if, if God call me tomorrow, I can say I had had a great life. I've had a great
Daniel Ferkin (1:07:46)
Life. Impact you've had on who knows how many people
Joey Crutchfield (1:07:51)
I've had a great life. And Covey wrote a book. He called this. Wrote the book, The Seven highly affected habits, or something, the seven habits are Highly Effective People. Oh, yeah. And he wrote another book, which was the eighth habit. And the eighth habit, and I'm paraphrasing, goes something like that, if something good happens to you, and I have a relationship with you and I know you, it happens to me as well. If you win the lottery, I may not want it, but I'm happy that you won the lottery, and when you reach that point in your life, that's when you know you have led a good life, and not feel like I'm that's where I am in my life right now, seeing someone else happy that I knew that's a great like You're not jealous, you're not you don't have any animosity. You are happy that that person, whatever it is, it could be monetary, it could be whatever it is, but you're happy for them, and not that you get anything from it monetarily, other than seeing them happy.
Daniel Ferkin (1:09:00)
And that continues down the chain.
Joey Crutchfield (1:09:03)
And that's where I am in my life right now. And it's a great place to be. Oh yeah, it is the best place to be. I
Daniel Ferkin (1:09:10)
Think everyone, if we can aspire to that,
Joey Crutchfield (1:09:15)
I would be, yeah, seeing those young men that when they went to one the football team or the basketball team, whatever, seeing them experience winning that when people didn't think they were going to do it, watching
Daniel Ferkin (1:09:27)
Them, you know, cheers and their football team, you know, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Joey Crutchfield (1:09:31)
Just that. I'm happy for that that represent University. More important. I'm happy for them that they got to experience
Daniel Ferkin (1:09:37)
That and going to a bowl game and being able to win after Yeah, all of that season,
Joey Crutchfield (1:09:44)
Yeah, so. So that's where I am right now in my life, so and I'm thankful. Oh yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (1:09:53)
See so you had mentioned Native American organizations that you are. You. Affiliated or a member of them. You want to go into more, like details about kind of your activities with them and like, what you're involved with,
Joey Crutchfield (1:10:10)
Yeah, nail, it was just the beginning. Kim Sampson was the leader at the time, and Kim was really good. She had great organizational skills. That's who will us probably need to get to talk here too, because she was really interested in bringing back the organization, because it had been inactive until she kind of led, led it a little bit, and getting involved with that, helping that, bringing speakers in, and I guess they saw me as an older brother, and wasn't quite an elder yet, but maybe an older brother on the way there, yeah, on the way there. And so they did ask for advice and things like that. And, you know, knowing that had knew something about the background, being in the community and all that, just being there, and from that, you know, we establish a drum herself, we establish Eastern bull. And then from the ECNAO comes the fraternity as well. Just seeing all that happen under her leadership is important, you know, and I want to give her praise and props too, for that, for doing that, things have changed. And I know it sounds like a negative, I just know it for everything, getting student involvement is different today than when it was, when I was in college, and certainly in the 90s, when Kim was here. So those are some of the challenges. And COVID really took a big thing, and I don't think we recovered yet? Yeah, maybe on the way, but I don't think we recovered yet. Does take some time, and not just in the college, I mean, in a high school level too, and in young people in general are different, and that's not the negative. I'm just saying they're different. They're the generation. Yeah, they're in right below me. Yeah, they've experienced Yes, stuff that the way they engage is different, so we've got to find a way to meet them. Yeah, maybe, maybe not come go to them. I mean, come to them. Maybe not them, Come to us, but we go to them, meet them there and then bring them. Yeah, and that's probably why we have to look at it now, it's sort of like I thought of this thing one time working with students on the spectrum. Is so often, we always try to bring students on the autistic spectrum. We try to make them come to us. Why not did we go to them? Yeah?
Daniel Ferkin (1:12:36)
So those simple questions
Joey Crutchfield (1:12:38)
Like, yeah, you frame the whole exactly. I thought about this, like, Wait a minute. Now, this is not right, you know. Maybe they maybe it is too loud in here, you know. So why can't we go there and say, okay, you know, again, it's about being a human being.
Daniel Ferkin (1:12:53)
Yeah, that's all it is. We all have our unique yes perspectives and
Joey Crutchfield (1:12:58)
Yes, yes, because it's all for the good of everybody. If we all can be inclusive of everybody, we all going to be better off for it. So yeah, and that's, that's what I hope I've done, is encourage people to be the best human beings they can be, and spread that goodness. That's, that's what I want to be known for. You know, he was a good man. He, he saw good in everyone. I think,
Daniel Ferkin (1:13:31)
Yeah, that's probably one of the best things that anyone, yeah, aspire to do.
Joey Crutchfield (1:13:36)
Yeah, yeah. Any that includes yourself too, yeah, be the best you can be, whatever that is, be the best you can be. Treat everyone with respect. Simple things like when I go to Walmart and I'm getting check out before I check out and say, Hey, how are you? How you doing today? Just that one little act, you know, just acknowledging someone is so important to me, because often I don't get it. Someone doesn't do it to me, but I do it to them anyway, and most of the time they'll do it back then. You know, recognize, I had to get on the phone to this morning before I came here and talking to the insurance people. The lady on the phone, she just worked there, but I was gonna be as nice as I could to one, one, she's gonna help me. But two, we're all just working a job. Yeah, we're just working a job. She she's not making it bad for me, you know? You know. So I think if we can do that, we're gonna be okay with a lot of people forgotten it. Do they think what I learned is it's two things. They can't eat you, and they can't take it with them. Well, they probably couldn't eat you. They cook you, but, but what I'm saying is they can't take it with them. So they can put down everybody they want, make as much money they want, but they can't take it with them today. Yeah, we're all back. We're all. Back being equal again. I can't take it with me. They can't take it with them. Yep.
Daniel Ferkin (1:15:07)
Um, you had mentioned the drumming group, have you? Was that something that you participated in? Like,
Joey Crutchfield (1:15:17)
For a while? Yeah, for a long time. We did it. I don't know it's as much now, every now and I'll do it. It's as you get older, the singing, that style of singing, is really hard on you, and it's definitely for younger people. But I can actually say that we encouraged and we fostered so many people to learn, to become singers, and went out and spread the culture again there too. It became like a teaching drum. We would teach people so they could learn, and they would go out into communities and all that. So it's all that's kind of Yeah, so it's all kind of come back together again, sharing it being inclusive, and because the old saying you can get more people with the more flies with honey than vinegar. I don't mean it that way, but I'm what I'm saying is, is, if you spread it the right way, yes, yeah.
Daniel Ferkin (1:16:14)
Are there any other groups or organizations, like in North Carolina, that you're involved
Joey Crutchfield (1:16:22)
With do anything now I, yeah, I still that's a group called [inaudible], which is, I'm on the board of directors for that. It's a group that takes place. We call it the Lost Colony. We're promoting it from an indigenous perspective like that. I emcee as an emcee at a lot of powwows, Native American powwows, and I try to do my powwows like I was doing the classroom. I try to make it an educational experience and share the knowledge I know what everyone else and not assume that everybody knows everything that's going on, or assume that I know everything, but share what I do have with the public as well. And that's been really good, because I people come up and say, Thank you for telling us what that what was going on, you know, like that. And because I don't know everything, I'm constantly learning all the time, that's the good thing about being a human being is getting to learn something new. So that's probably what I'm doing now, those kind of two things like that. And then I'm teaching part time at Pitt Community College two days a week, so I'm still working with younger people. Same thing. Which courses are you in the old days, we called it GED. Today we call it transitional studies. It's helping people to go on and get your credentials. In fact, there is a person here who's working on their PhD that I taught, but he got his GED with an associate degree, got a four year degree, got his master's now working his PhD, and he teaches here at East Carolina. So that's really, really important. Yeah, yeah,
Daniel Ferkin (1:18:00)
That journey from
Daniel Ferkin (1:18:08)
We had covered, like stuff that you had been most proud of, especially with, like, your contributions to ECU and just pretty much, like all the students who've been able to teach so there was a lot in there that you had mentioned before, but was there anything else that you had, maybe, like, I guess, like, any thing, like else outside of those things that you were, like, really, Like, proud of or
Joey Crutchfield (1:18:41)
Other than, other than that, just that part, you know, I'm proud of everything. You know, proud of the university. I just hope that we can keep on. I know things are changing, but because things change that way doesn't mean that we can't stop being who we are, and because education is the key, being inclusive, being you know, those that were DEI is not a bad word. It's actually a good word. It's actually a good thing, if you really want to think about it, the DEI saved this country's ass in World War Two, because those people, how about those world those code talkers? That was diversity, that was inclusion, because without them, this country might have lost this war. So lost the war. So, you know, sometimes people are still sleep, you know, because if you're not woke, you sleep, and they would stay sleeping. So maybe sometimes we have to have some things. Others realize that diversion, diversity, include inclusion, equity and inclusion is a really a good thing. So I know if I had a company, I would want everybody in my company.
Daniel Ferkin (1:19:59)
It's like. Like drawing from everyone.
Joey Crutchfield (1:20:01)
Yeah, because although they can bring all those things to the table, yeah, all those experiences to the table.
Daniel Ferkin (1:20:07)
Now that's I've noticed funny you said before, every group and all the education stuff always bringing everyone together. Yeah,
Joey Crutchfield (1:20:15)
That's what that's what the education does. Because we can learn from each other. I tell my students today at Pitt Community College, you'll learn more from each other than you'll learn from me. And in that classroom, we learn from each other, and they come from all different backgrounds, ages and all those things. So that inclusion is very important in order to be a complete human being,
Daniel Ferkin (1:20:36)
Going back to like your experiences as a child too, yep, yep, into like that high school and being able to Yep, get all those things,
Joey Crutchfield (1:20:47)
Yeah, normally, yeah, food, sounds, culture, you know, everything you know, yeah, so important. Otherwise, you live a boring life. It's boring, but maybe some people want it boring. I don't know,
Daniel Ferkin (1:21:03)
Yeah, yeah.
Joey Crutchfield (1:21:05)
A lot of times people are fearful. But what when you understand something, you're not fearful or scared of it, yeah. And to understand something is to learn of something and to love it as a thing in the education little tree, which that's a different thing by itself to who wrote the book. But if you understand something, you love it. And to love something isn't is not to fear it. And if you do all those things, you will learn from it and grow, but if you don't love it, you fear it, you can't understand it, you fear it, and you don't grow. Yep,
Daniel Ferkin (1:21:51)
Closing yourself up, I think overall, just everything that you've learned and experienced has really been something like going back to like being able to help people you know and share that knowledge and be able to help people grow, and I think
Joey Crutchfield (1:22:13)
And help me grow, yeah, and yourself help me grow. It's a reciprocal thing going there. You know, you, if you're giving out information, you got to get information. In order to give out information, to get information, it's a reciprocal thing there. If you're just doing it one way, you never do anything, and you're not an effective teacher either. If you only can give it but not receive it, then you you know, if I'm giving information as an instructor and my students aren't getting it. They're telling me they're not getting and I keep getting giving it to them. I'm not effective at all. I may think I am, but I really haven't done anything the
Daniel Ferkin (1:22:50)
Difference of a good teacher and not so good.
Joey Crutchfield (1:22:55)
Again. Great teachers are born, not made,
Daniel Ferkin (1:23:01)
I guess we're about to get to the bottom of our list. So our last question, pretty much, is there anything else that we haven't covered or to share?
Joey Crutchfield (1:23:16)
Again, who knows what things been happening is? Knowing the truth. Learning the truth, it goes back to learning again will take us to where we need to go, even when some try to rewrite history, knowing the truth will be what is going to enable mankind to survive on this earth. Because you can, you can say anything you want. You can make the grass look green over there, and it's weeds, and it looks pretty, and you try to eat it, but there's no nutrients in it, you're gonna die because, because I hadn't learned that that's not real. And the thing that makes us so unique is the things that make us unique, which is our differences. Our differences are bad, our differences are great, but they're very little. We're more like one another than unlike one another, regardless of your culture, regardless of your background, food, shelter, love, probably the best one is love. We all need those as human beings, you know. And again, I always say, no matter where you came from, at one time, your people were tribal, your ancestors were tribal, and we all share that. We all shared it. And so that would be my closing thing is, is to to love one another and learn from one another. That's it,
Daniel Ferkin (1:24:52)
Yeah? Real knowledge, right there.
Joey Crutchfield (1:24:55)
That's it. That's real knowledge. Yeah, that's the only thing I would say. Oh.
Daniel Ferkin (1:25:00)
Well, thank you. Thank you. This is a really great interview, and we definitely appreciate you coming here and being able to just share everything that you have. And it's, it's been a good experience.
Joey Crutchfield (1:25:14)
Well, thank you. Me too good questions, and I'm hope that, hopeful that I will be able to have a legacy that just says, You know what? He was, a good human being, that's all.
[End Of Recording]