Dr. Robert FulghumNarrators

Jon DemboInterviewer

November 6, 1991East Carolina University

[This text is machine generated and may contain errors.]

Jon Dembo Part 1 (00:12) Let me say that I'm recording Dr. Robert Fulghum and that it's the sixth of November 1991. Why don't you just start with your decision to come to ECU and going from there?

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (00:29) Okay. Well, I was at the University of Kentucky College of Dentistry. And I met Mike Schweiz style there. He and I were in the department of neurobiology.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (00:40) This was in 1970. This,

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (00:42) this was in about 1969. Mike came there. And Mike stayed a year. And he saw some handwriting on the wall at Kentucky that I didn't see. And he decided that, that that was not going to be a situation you want to stay in. And he told me, he said, I know that there's a group that is interested in starting a medical school in North Carolina. And he said, I'm going to go down and see about that. And he did. Mike and Jan, and my wife and I were good friends, we've met together fairly often. And Mike came back and was, was very enthusiastic and said he was going to leave, he really didn't say a great deal about it, except that he thought that it was going to be something that was going to work out. And so they they left rather suddenly, after having only been at Kentucky a year. Well, the handwriting on the wall came true. And I left Kentucky in 1971 and went with a commercial firm for a year in the Chapel Hill area. And decided I didn't like that. And so in. In the spring of 1972, they had a North Carolina branch of American Society for Microbiology meeting at East Carolina University. And I came down here to give a paper there. And at the same time, having decided I was not going to stay with that company. I contacted Mike Schweiz style. And he said that they were looking for a microbiologist, and would I be interested in I said yes, I would be very much and talked to while he was and after the usual back and forth. Why? While they decided to hire me and I decided to accept the decision. And so I came here in actually came on board, first of July 1972, which is not reflected in the first catalog because they had gone ahead and printed at first catalog and started accepting the first class before I came here. But I was here in September of 1972. And first class started and the picture that's downstairs in the vestibule of the building, showing the first class with I think Dr. Jake Jenkins and Dr. Monroe and Dr. Walls and maybe Lennox Baker's in that picture. I'm not sure Lennox Baker was there. And that picture was being taken and the rest of the faculty were back behind the camera while watching the picture being taken

Jon Dembo Part 1 (03:49) where you're when you're we recall that we had already come Yeah.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (03:55) Well, while he was of course was here of course Edmund Rowe had been here even before that by twice right Mike's why stall I've got a list of them. Of course while they Mike Bob Thurber, myself Mason Smith. Jack Bran had Bill Walker and yeah, Bill wall was already here. burden and burden, right brand brand. Linda stone, Lana stone. He was here at Evelyn McNeil comm I believe Evelyn had I believe she was one of the first there were there were 18 of us. And I think maybe one more or two more may have joined either just before or just after idea. I wasn't exactly sure when the two pathologists came on board but anyway, the right to have And I believe that 14 or 15 of them are still here. Yeah. And still, I believe in the teaching. Right. And I think, I think that was one of the important things. And the establishment of this medical school. The state was looking at East Carolina University to see if the school could indeed support medical school, which meant attract to one of the things that man was attracting and holding, beginning cadre of faculty that would stay and would keep things going. A lot of medical schools that were starting in that era, were not able to, for one reason or another to hold up a faculty and particularly the leadership part of the new faculty. And this, of course, delayed their maturation, or in some cases, was the cause of the school falling through.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (06:02) This was a two year school at that time. No,

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (06:05) it was really a one year, as I understand it, the legislature decided to make it a one year program and feed these one year, people into Chapel Hill. And we had our own selection committee, our own admissions committee, and this admissions committee was charged with selecting the students. But it was also charged with presenting these students to the admissions committee at Chapel Hill, because these students would, of course, be going to Chapel Hill. So we spent quite a bit of time back and forth, going back and forth to Chapel Hill. That kind of backfired a little bit for us, because Capitol Hill had a sort of a numerical cut off, if students didn't have certain scores, why they just really weren't considered any further. And we took a lot of students that were just under those cut off scores and presented them to their committee up there. And there were some instances where they saw the wisdom and looking at the students and went on and recruited them away from us. So there was some competition there in that the recruiting process. Yes, that's right. And particularly for minority students, we found some very good minority students that we would have liked to have had thought they would have done well and said, so these meetings and the admissions people up there, saw the wisdom in that. And the next thing we knew they had offered them, scholarships that we were not able to able to offer them. And so as I recollect, we didn't have any minority students in our one year program, but I might be wrong about that. I'd have to go back and, and and check.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (08:05) It sounds as if there was not always a straightforward relationship.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (08:10) No, there. Most people had at Chapel Hill were pretty adamant that they felt that if there were, if there were to be additional modes of training medical students, that the that they'd be best done in Chapel Hill, the real problem was, and some of the physicians up there would would privately tell you this was that at the time, they didn't have the patient material to increase the size of their class. And so they did have some limitation. Just, you know, looking at what's happened over the 20 years, I think that Chapel Hill gained as much by our being here as they thought they were going to lose, because I think the need for additional medical training in this state was brought out by our bid for school here. And I think it also showed some of the problems that Chapel Hill was having or made them more acutely aware to the legislature, and I think they got more earlier out of it, then, then they would make they might have gotten it later. But I think it might be a game to them earlier. But anyway, that was I think, an interesting aspect of the of the whole time.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (09:46) There was still the night, essentially from 1972.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (09:50) Yeah, 1972 to 1975. And there were there were other committees. One of the other things that early on the We're very interested in was having common eye examinations. For two reasons, I think one, obviously would have been that they wanted to see that the students that came from here and went into their program would have the same background and could make the same standards through examinations. And this, this turned out to be successful. As far as we're concerned, I think the other agenda that they had was that they thought, well, those people down there won't be able to do much with the students and they won't pass the exams. And that'll be the end of the whole thing is that we're no, actually our students fit right into their class, we had some that were that were had some that were low, but the majority of our students went right into the center of their class. And I think after that, even though we had done a good job, the first year, we felt like we were stretched pretty thin. And we asked them for some help, particularly the Mason Smith and myself in microbiology, which is really, you know, a collection of disciplines. And not everyone is well versed in all of them. And so we made arrangements to have people from Chapel Hill come down and help us in areas that we were not as strong. And they were just the two of you. Yes, they were just the two of us in microbiology. And they were they were very happy to do it. They came down and they said, we don't think there would be a medical school here. But since there is one here and you need help, we're we're glad to help you and they very generously gave of their time and efforts to to assist us

Jon Dembo Part 1 (11:52) it appears that the basic science people there have been shared the overall feeling about VCU wasn't just the clinical people.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (12:00) Oh, yes, I think so. Yes, that's that's true. And in fact, I have friends that were at North Carolina State, who felt that this was a waste of state resources. And but even some of those were ones who said that they ought not have a veterinary school at their own university. So it's hard to know exactly what they were thinking. But the joint venture and it did become a joint venture, particularly after the first year worked out a very way all the people that do kutak mycology to both Duke and Chapel Hill came down and taught mycology for us. And the same thing happened with Paris. No, that was Oh, my goodness, I should know his name. Bill Coleman, Bill Coleman. He was very nice gentleman. In fact, I remember I met him as a graduate student. And I met I saw him again, several years later, at a national meeting in Chicago. He remembered me and talked to me, usually people of that stature. Don't have much time for former students that Well, I wasn't even a student at this school. I just happened to stop by and talk to him for an hour or so. But there were a number of committees, which we participated in and in Chapel Hill. I think one, one of the things that that came out at one of the meetings, one of the former names at Chapel Hill, wanted to speak to the admissions committee one time when we were having a joint meeting. And I don't think he really realized that there were some people from that other school in the meeting. And he got up and gave a very impassioned speech to the admissions committee that they should be more lenient and accepting children from physicians in the state into the medical school because he said it was just sort of feeding the notion that there ought to be another medical school in the state and I didn't realize that we were, we were in there, but there were there was quite a bit of feeling. And I think it would have been Dr. Berry Hill. Yes, it was. Yes. It was Dr. Berry Hill. Anyway. We spend a lot of time back and forth between Chapel Hill and they would send their planes down here to pick us up and there were a lot of interesting incidents. Due to that, I remember one time we were taking off. And I think Mike Schweiz stall and probably it was Mike Mike Swanstone. I think Dean Hyack that was on the plane. And probably while it was maybe about Thurber, and we took off and got just up over the swamp, and where the river is, and engine on the plane cut off, oh, my goodness. And we thought that was gonna be about the end. And of course, the pilot was frantically trying to get it started again. And, and he did just in time, and flew back and Landon. And I AK was was ready to get out of that airplane. But the pilot said, Well, it sounds like it's alright, so he said, Let's try it again. So we went on off. But I know, I think my fingerprints are permanently in Boston that seat handles of of that airplane seat. There was another time we were coming back. And what was his name, Colonel Provencher. That was the head of the air plane group up there. Anyway, he said, we were we were coming down to the Greenville airport one time and one of their newer planes. And I think he was getting a little bored, just flying here to there and in a straightforward manner. And he said, I think we'll do a military type plan in here. And I said, that's all right with me, he was sitting up in the copilot seat. And so he comes in and goes, zoom in down over the runway back up in the air, and then Mexico complete 360 turns and drops right on the on the runway. And hack doesn't fly much anyway, I'd like to. And so the thing was visibly visibly shaken when we got off that time. But there were there were a lot of fun things like that that happened. And it was it was really a very, very interesting time and seeing the development of of a new school,

Jon Dembo Part 1 (17:27) you owe those three classes up there. Right? That's right,

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (17:31) we sent three classes up there, the all of them did quite well. In fact, the some of the leaders of the classes at Chapel Hill came out of our group. I think particularly the third group that we sent up there, that's an outstanding student. Yes. And they, they became officers in the class and, and on some monitors and so on, as far as I recall. So we were very pleased with that group. And then in 1975, the legislature which had put aside $15 million towards the school here, had a good year financially. And things were going well for us down here and the political climate was moving more and more in our favor. We were we had made a bid to go from a one year school to a two year school. And that's what we were hoping for, although we had plans, contingent state plans, and in case they wanted to do more than that. And we were real surprised, but very pleased to find out in 1975, that they decided to authorize a four year school here and put another app 30. Well, Matt knows about $27 million more, I think it was I think we had something like 40 to $42 million set aside. And at that point, we began to search for a permanent thing. While he was of course, then the dean of the one year program, something that he really didn't get much credit for, I don't find in subsequent years, but he was the one that really held us all together during those years. Chapel Hill when they realized after the first year that this was going to be something that was going to be probably going to stay and and work out sent Bill Cromartie down as the director of the program from their point of view, and so there was some conflict about who was really the boss down here, but they'll comedy was a was a gentleman and, and things worked out very well. I'm not sure maybe all too well, his satisfaction but

Jon Dembo Part 1 (20:17) generally speaking things ran smoothly.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (20:20) Oh, yes, they did. And he made a few changes. There really was no, I guess our department microbiology really had no leadership at all. And at that point, he saw that, that I was doing most of what a chairman would do anyway. And so he appointed me, the acting chairman of the department. And then, of course, soon as the legislature announced that this would be developed into a four year school building, come back anymore after that.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (20:57) And you all moved into begin to move into REITs, though, at that point.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (21:02) Yes, we have your Yes, we had been looking for some time at possible locations for additional space, and they had to dormitories that were closed because of lack of student interest in living in dorms at that particular time. And eventually, we decided on Ragsdale probably because it was closer to the science building, and you started out in science called That's right, we started out in the Science Complex in the biology part of the science complex. And in fact, I think there was some hopes at one time that that that the whole medical school, they run out of the biology department. I don't know that at least I think some people in the biology department had those, those kinds of thoughts, but

Jon Dembo Part 1 (21:57) there was some comments that Dr. Jenkins made publicly that countering some rumors that there were frictions between the ECU faculty and medical school faculty that time maybe this was an issue that he said that that it had been exaggerated reports had been contrived to create confusion about the newspapers. Oh, yeah, may have been a small basis for it.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (22:25) There may have been. And you know, there may have been one or two people that that felt that things didn't work out much in their favor. And I know, of course, we were guests in their buildings and taking some of their classrooms. That's right, we took a lot of their classroom space. And in order to use it effectively, we remodeled a lot of it, which sort of defeated the purpose of the way they had built it in the first place. Some of that they've restored now that we've moved out of there, but some they've kept the same way. But I think that any, I didn't feel any, any real friction. There were some people that felt that we all had enormous salaries compared to other salaries on the campus, which really wasn't true. We worked we were 12 month employees, and they were nine month employees. So naturally, there was a difference. But one year, someone published all the salaries, some disgruntled faculty member published all the salaries and the whole unit University. And we had opportunities that time to compare our salaries, with other salaries, and they weren't really that much greater considering 12 months to their nine months in

Jon Dembo Part 1 (23:46) March of 75, the Board of Governors set salary levels, and that for faculty of the medical school at ECU and then was published in the paper also had a note about

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (24:00) oil. Yes. And that probably included a lot of clinical what the upper clinical salaries. It said

Jon Dembo Part 1 (24:07) there was $50,000, for full professors, 27,000 for clinical professors, and 38 to 45. For the dean of the school, basic science faculty would range from 16, five for instructors to 44,000, for department chairman, and this was published.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (24:26) Yes. Well, I think that a lot of people look at the hands of those things and figured well, everybody's probably getting that and I don't get that and and that's a perception that has persisted and probably persist to this day. But you know, that I was not happy at the medical school. During one phase of things here and I explored the possibility of going over to the biology department. And the chairman of the biology department there said, I've got people with higher salaries and the new he said, I have no problem if you decide you won't come over here to tell you what you're getting. So it really was not that much basis to all of the fears that people have. But some people play that up. Further, where she will pick back

Jon Dembo Part 1 (25:19) up? Well, you were talking about the relationship with the VCU faculty generally, but we can go. Well, this was still in 75. hadn't done the school

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (25:29) move. Yes. We had to set up. Yeah, I think the I think in general, we had good relationships with the faculty, I think there was always some mistrust on the part of the faculty at East Carolina University. This is universal. I think if MIT Kentucky when I was there? Oh, yes, I think so. I think they see a new unit coming on campus. And they feel like that these people are going to get better salaries, and that these people are going to be taking resources away from the university. And that really wasn't the case here the other way around. Yeah, we, I think we brought a lot to this campus, and our funding was entirely separate. So it didn't, it didn't take anything financially away from the university and probably brought some things down. But

Jon Dembo Part 1 (26:26) were you all able to do much research? Or did you spend all your time brought to the Digi?

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (26:31) Well, there wasn't as much opportunity to do research as we would have liked. And I'm looking at it more from my own point. I was bacteriologists, Mason Smith was an immunologist. And that was the department. Each of us had a technician to work for us in the lab. And we were expected to do some research. But sometimes, when you're just alone with just one technician, it's kind of hard to get things started the people in biochemistry, Sam Penn and sort of lead the group there in the early years. And Sam brought some people together that had some more common interests and in research, and they were able to put a group together early on. And they were they were much more successful because they had that kind of an opportunity. They stimulated each other that is oh, that yes, that's right. And in fact, they actually work together on projects, and built their individual interests around a common theme. And were very successful in this. This work is still going on. And so they were they were quite successful in doing that with Mason and I haven't such diverse interest. And the feeling was that they didn't want to hire any more people in microbiology until the chairman was was named.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (28:15) Were they recruiting at that time?

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (28:18) Well, there were three people, I think, in. In biochemistry. We were we started recruiting for more people about 1976 After Dr. Lovaas came without like, it was not right to recruit people into we had a head of Chief that could vote for a year after that. And that's right. And so when when he came in why we started looking for a chairman for microbiology, which I won't go into, but that was the thing that went awry. Was turnout that issue a real problem for about seven years. But that's been resolved now. And that's all behind us. I won't say a whole lot about that.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (29:07) Did the? You get the there was one. There was a year in which there was no class graduated right before you started.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (29:19) Yes. Well, the last one year class was in 1975. Right? And then we were to take two years to gear up for a four year for two grants that were no graduate. So for two years, we have no students at all student now and then and then a night, let's say 1977 or 7677 and fall of 77. The first four year class that's right. And of course they didn't graduate until they won. So our first graduates of the school are really 1981 and and then it was 1982 when we moved over to this new facility They were over here

Jon Dembo Part 1 (30:04) that came in 76.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (30:08) You came in 76. Where had you gone after you left and went back to do? Oh, you went back to the asset.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (30:17) So the well, let's let's go back to the period, what what was the what were you all mainly involved in during that period of two years where the classes weren't being taught and you were doing other things? What was like what was going on?

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (30:34) Well, we had been looking for a new chairman. I think. I think our new chairman came in January of 1970 was the first chairman.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (32:13) The first chairman was Dr. Burlingham.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (32:15) That's right. Baron Berlin. And he came from Kansas. Yes, he was at Kansas State University. I think Kansas State University was trying to do some sort of the same thing started to your program to feed the other school.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (32:35) What was his special interest was in bacteriology, I

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (32:37) mean, it was virology virologist.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (32:41) And who else joins us

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (32:43) now? Well, we got another immunologist, Leonard English and Dr. Berlin and brought postdoctoral person with him who was a virologist Jim Akers. And Jim stayed on for a few years. And then let's see what her he heard Paul Fletcher. And he heard Louisville Mueller, person that he had a student that he had known at Kansas. And and then I believe the next person that was hired was Henry Stone, who also was from Kansas, but was from the University of Kansas rather than Kansas State with

Jon Dembo Part 1 (33:30) this, it's 76. Well, let's

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (33:32) say it was 82 by the time Henry Stein thought here, so this is a sort of over a couple year period. And then then there were two other people that had been hired Carlo brewski, and Carolyn Stabler later. And they came after we moved into this builder, I believe.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (33:54) And did you all attempt any research projects during that period?

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (33:57) Oh, yes. Yes, we were into research from from the first, as I was saying the biochemistry people were a little more successful at it.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (34:06) Yeah. Were you were you able to during that period, you had more people? Yeah, yes. Both things and programs.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (34:12) He Oh, he is my technician and I were able to do a few things. And we did one thing that refuted a rather important article in one of the better journals that was done by one of the people at Duke University. And I was a little timid about publishing that in fact, I gave a paper on it at a national meeting, and was a little bit timid and didn't publish my data, other than to give the paper and pretty soon several other people came out with the same thing out who had attended that meeting, and It wasn't, it was 10 years later before I got up the courage to publish that. I don't know why I

Jon Dembo Part 1 (35:05) learned about the the work of cooperation with Duke goodness going on or what?

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (35:11) Oh, no, it was just simply that they had, they had chosen a group of organisms to work on to determine whether these organisms had a enzyme called superoxide dismutase. And they didn't. And so they thought that the basis of being able to or having to live without air, like many macro organisms do, what him hinged on whether these organisms had this and time or not. And we found out that there are a number of anaerobic organisms that cannot live in the presence of air that they do have this enzyme, but something else was the basis for their need for anaerobic conditions. And we, we worked a little bit on intestinal flora, but we got interested in otitis media or an inflammation of the middle ear. And with how Daniel, in allied health, we began work on the development of an animal model to study otitis media. And we were kind of competing with some other people across the country on this. So the first competition was that the NIH wanted to develop a model and so they asked for people to make proposals about what animal they would use and so on. And we proposed the Mongolian gerbil, and other people proposed other animals, including the chinchilla. It just happened that Scott, the bank at Minnesota was the person who won the award for his chinchilla model. And so he got a big head start on this, but we went on and develop the the alternate model, and it has paid off because a lot of the drug companies prefer this animal to the chinchilla, and efficacy studies for antibiotics and other drugs and your research was useful. Oh, yes.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (37:29) Go back just a minute. Could you give me a sense of how things were in Greenville at the time that you all arrived? I mean, this was sort of a bold venture for people, you know, you were in the middle range of your career and things were You were pretty well settled. And the two sides of it. Could you tell me something about that side of it. And then also something about the actual city and the living conditions and education such that you recall? Well, the career side of it was a gamble

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (38:05) for the career side of it was a gamble. And once we came here, we found out how much of a gamble it really was,

Jon Dembo Part 1 (38:14) you really didn't know until you arrived, you haven't? Well, not much.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (38:20) Well, the the fact that I had known in the industry for a year makes it made it a little bit hard to get back into academia. And having known Mike Schweiz style, and having his recommendation that things would go well here. Trust. That's right. So I think that was those were some of the things that I had in mind to want to get back into academia, this was a very opportune time and place to do it for me. And knowing my XY stall and knowing how enthusiastic he was about things here. And actually, when I came down here, the the group of people that had been put together was a very enthusiastic group. And everyone worked very, very hard. Doing all kinds of things that were outside of our usual work areas to further the School of Medicine, weaving random sort of like an underground newspaper for the legislature, and provided them with information through through this. But that course that was wildly over, yet around. But we all deal with things like that. And we had to do a lot of work. Planning ahead as to what we would do if we were given this opportunity by the legislature if we were given that opportunity. And I have a whole file drawer full of stuff that I'd Just sort of kept this as time went on, it was very interesting. Oh, yes, very interesting to see the development, so that that too was, you know, kind of an attractive thing. But yeah, there was something something there, and something that one could have some input into and develop something. That That's right. And then I felt to like, that I might be able to contribute, because the College of Dentistry at Kentucky, you know, was conceived in a different light than the standard medical, or the standard Dental School of the time. And they had a lot of ideas regarding curriculum, and they had a lot of ideas about how to build the basic science and clinical teaching together. And I think that was that was an interesting and certainly instructive to me. And I thought it would be useful in a setting like this. And so for a number of reasons had I just naturally came here, I had another opportunity laboratory in a veterans hospital that I could have considered, but I decided to try this and stay at. And that was an adventure. That's right. It was an adventure. And the other thing, too, I think, was, we wanted to stay in this area, you were Virginians. And this is not too far from where my wife came from. And so we were we were interested in staying in North Carolina, if we could.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (41:49) Well, about the other side of it, how what, what kind of a place was greed for when you're either not? What did you find this well, in the town?

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (41:57) Well, the the school was one that was obviously growing, both physically and I think in educational stature, it had a long ways to go. It still has a way to go, I think, in some ways, but it, it was an interesting place to. And you know, it's funny how things happen to people. I had heard of a job here. Back in the 19. In, I guess it was the early 1960s. And I had come here, haven't heard that there was job here but not knowing very much about it or heard about it through a friend of North Carolina State now was living in Pennsylvania, at the time. And so I had been to Greenville before, and had seen East Carolina University because I came down here and interviewed for a job in the biology department, it turned out that they wanted somebody with a different background than I had. And so it didn't work out. But it's curious that I had come here and interviewed for a job once before, and then this other entirely different thing opened up years later. But Greenville was, you know, a small town. We had, I guess we were sort of more interested in in not too large places.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (43:28) Was housing a problem.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (43:30) Housing was a problem when we first came here because Burroughs welcome had just moved in and abroad, most of their people here and 18 months before we had, we came here and housing was at a premium. In fact, I had to pay more for the same square footage of house here than in Chapel Hill and Chapel Hill, you know, he was sort of always has been a very expensive place in terms of housing. So, you know, there were, there were a couple of things like that, that were a little bit difficult, but in fact, I could only show us four houses in town that met that met our needs. We told him what, generally what needs to be met, and they searched around and said, Well, we've got three or four, we can show you. Another choice, not much choice, we we found a lovely home and we've been in it ever since we came here. So we, my wife and I liked Greenville a lot we were we're not real gregarious people. And so you know, we have a limited number of friends. In fact, my wife knows and recognizes many more people than I had to do but

Jon Dembo Part 1 (44:54) did you find it hard to get into the community anyway? No,

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (44:56) no, no, not at all. Not at all as much as you want. To the Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (45:02) I've heard people say that they found they've always got themselves upside this year, no matter how long they stayed,

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (45:08) some people might. And I know some of the people in our neighborhood, one or two that tried to make us feel that way. They called us Yankees. My family had probably been in the South, as many years as theirs had been, couldn't have been much more because my family came to the southern United States in the 1640s. So

Jon Dembo Part 1 (45:36) anymore people, many bright Europeans here before they

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (45:40) go, but I think what they meant when they call it people, Yankees were people that were from outside fit County. Anyhow, that was there was very little of that really. I think my two older children maybe felt it more, I think they were both high school age at the time. And I think they failed quite a bit. We also had a younger child, who was 10 years younger than the older boys. And so he came here as a as a two year old who grew up here. And, and he didn't, he did very well. did very well growing up here. And there were a group of children that came through the schools about the time and he did all all did extremely well. And all of the all of those children are often

Jon Dembo Part 1 (46:40) universities. The schools were good here.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (46:43) I thought the schools were were, were quite adequate.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (46:51) They didn't have any crowding problem and

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (46:53) loads. Not too much. Not too much. There were there were still a little of the racial tension, particularly in high school, but that that didn't seem that didn't seem to be in the in the grade school. Okay.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (47:10) We were talking about the period between the time that the one year school closed the two years during which you all were preparing now, when the four year school opened up, where there are many changes in the situation and the old atmosphere. And could you just chat a bit about the things that happened at that point? Well,

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (47:29) it was a very exciting time Dr. Opposite calm. He had the foresight to see that he needed residency programs in the hospital to support our clinical

Jon Dembo Part 1 (47:44) teaching this. They were beginning to become connected with the Kennedy Memorial. What

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (47:50) Yes, yes, those those arrangements really started way back and even in the one year period, because I know that at least on one occasion, while they sent me to one of the local hospitals with a big packet of information, they were working together on a on a on an agreement they and so all of these agreements, things started to lay way earlier.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (48:15) When did they build the big towers? I guess that was in the year, the school? That was 70.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (48:21) Yeah, they were Yeah, they were doing that in about. Yeah, they started that about that time. And then by the time doctor office came here, and the money was released to him, he put a fair amount of the money into building the clinical teaching areas that are on the front of the two original bed towers, and started the residency programs, and hired quite a number of clinical faculty and really got things, things going. And so he every person, I think that that had a leadership role here, even though they may not have agreed on, on what the deal details and so on each one of them had, I think, a part to play at a different time. That was was critical. And build office came at a time when it was really critical that certain things be done. And he had the foresight to do some things that that possibly some other people wouldn't have. And I think the starting the residency programs and getting the clinical faculty in and having a residency program for them to work with, before the students got to that point was was very important. And did

Jon Dembo Part 1 (49:49) it have a great deal of what was the effect of his arrival on the basic sciences programs was just a matter of expansion or?

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (49:58) Well, I think he was He was in favor of expanding the basic science programs, I never really felt any any threatening or anything threatening from the advent of the clinical component coming coming here, we all look forward to it, we look forward to finding areas that we could work together and cooperate. And all along even even from the time before Dr. Lawless came here, we always said, we want to have a medical center, that was a cooperative sort of a place with Cooperative people and to try to avoid some of the bad personalities that you were talking about that surfaced in Kentucky, we want to try to avoid those kinds of people. And I think largely, we did that I think of the medical centers that I know, this is probably one of the nicest places most contour, as SMD. And so I'm really pleased with that, because that was something that we talked about early on, back in the one year program. And, and and that's, that's been the the thrust of the search for people, I think all along, just worked out, worked out very well. And so doctor's office came and he had his his era here, I think. I think doctor's office was never really willing to admit some of the importance of what went on in the one year program here. But then again, of course, his job was to come and build for your program. And he did that. I think he had maybe a better base to build on and then he might have realized but or at least admitted to a lot of people. But he came in he did just a wonderful job here. And he had his own mode of operations. I think. I think the school kind of outgrew that, by the time that that he decided to step down, and I think we have a little bit more open administration now. You feel the level but the schools moved into a different area

Jon Dembo Part 1 (52:43) every year years, actually. But the emphasis that you got in the initial period carried over and worked in the favor of the beginning of the four years? Oh,

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (52:54) yes. That's yeah, I think there's no doubt about that, that that convinced the legislature that, that we could do it here. I think having a cadre of people here in the basic sciences that were that wanted to see a good medical school Bill was was very important.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (53:20) And it sounds as if you all established a lot of personal basis, one on one basis, a good deal of a strong working relationship, even with the schools that were so friendly.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (53:31) Yes, I think so. Well, you know, the schools weren't very friendly, I think from a political overall point of view, but the individual faculty were lacking. Good professionals were always willing to, to help a colleague, and, and that that came through very, very clearly from the other medical schools in this state. We didn't have as much communication with Bowman Gray, but of course, through professional societies. Now, we knew those people and they seem to be supportive of me, but certainly the people that do come Chapel Hill, were individually.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (54:22) Very helpful. They see when we needed help. They seem to have been supportive of the students to the teaching. Think they all had assisted the teaching is important. Yes.

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (54:35) That's right. And I think that was a very beautiful thing that that happened. And of course, I think that the highest of professionalism

Jon Dembo Part 1 (54:55) Well, I think we've covered most of the points that I had in mind I was particularly interested in your comments on the earliest period and the transition. Do you have any general sense of how things have gone other than what you said that that you would like to sort of round things up with or any things that you remember that you'd like to talk about?

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (55:23) Well, I think way back in one year program, there was a lot of interest in what was going to happen. And I particularly remember at least one faculty member, I won't name him because he's still an active faculty member on the other campus who, who, every time there was a nasty editorial in one of the larger, particularly the News and Observer, why he would get on his bicycle and pedal down to my house and asked me if I still had a job. Of course, he was just kind of legal in me and friendly sort of way. But there were there was a lot of interest in, in, in what was going on. And I think, while a lot of the faculty on the university campus, maybe were a little afraid of having a medical school, I think, deep down, they were a little bit pleased and proud that the state would want to locate one on on their campus, it seems

Jon Dembo Part 1 (56:32) to have been the the route for getting graduate programs, one of the major routes?

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (56:38) Well, that's, that's correct. They've had a graduate program at masters level at the University for some time, but the doctoral programs, even though a number of the departments probably could do that very well, right now. It's been difficult to get them started, partly because they duplicate other programs, but partly because it's just I think, then hard for the university to, to build towards that in a sort of political sense. And income innovate, so to speak. Since the universities growth from Teachers College University has been so rapid, but I think all that will come and and hopefully, our doctoral program here will help them to achieve the things that they want. At least that's the way I would like to view it. Have

Jon Dembo Part 1 (57:39) you seen any impact of the microwave network, and the easy communication now, between between the medical schools in your area?

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (57:52) We were talking about that. The other day, I, of course, I've gotten more and more interdepartmental administration with the coming of our new chairman, now, and the building of of this department and the biotechnology program, which consumes a lot of his interest in time. And so I have not really had the opportunity to to really see how much that is being used. But it's it's my general impression that even though it's a wonderful facility, that it's it's not being used as much as it could or should be.

Jon Dembo Part 1 (58:37) You you're feeling but the school girl isn't it's all the way up and it's go

Robert Fulghum Part 1 (58:42) home. Oh, yes. I'm quite optimistic. And Phil Oh, yes. I've always felt that way. And I think I think the accreditation visits that we've had, in recent years, point to the fact that we're doing quite well for new medical school. I think the last accreditation was for the full total period that they will accredit. And, and we were always pleased with the accreditation site visits that we've had. We've never really had a bad one even back in one in the one year program when we were trying to get some sort of accreditation on our own. And there was a lot of political things that happened of them. I don't think I was here at the time, but there was an early visit. And the visiting team was very pleased with what they saw with the nucleus of basic science fattened Lee and they said they were going to recommend that we receive accreditation but the last page of their report Ever never really appeared in the official report. And we felt that that was squelched by people of influence who had some influence over that, which is unfortunate at night because that Oh, yeah. That was That was unfortunate because I think that that sort of underhanded politics should not be in an accreditation process but it was at that time and but I don't think there's I don't it certainly hasn't been a problem since then. Anyway.

Jon Dembo 1:Part 1 (00:36) Well, I appreciate your spending your time with me. I think we write it over the area.

Robert Fulghum 1:Part 1 (00:45) Well, I enjoy doing it. I'm sorry that I rambled on and I don't get to the point sometimes, but it's interesting to recall some of these things. I would like perhaps even to try to recall more of it sometime.

Jon Dembo 1:Part 1 (01:05) We can do this again if you like. Okay. Appreciate very much

[Start of Part 2]

Jon Dembo Part 2 (00:01) The first chairman was Dr. Burlingham.

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (00:03) That's right. Erin Berlin. And he

Jon Dembo Part 2 (00:08) came from Kansas.

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (00:09) Yes, he was at Kansas State University. I think Kansas State University was trying to do some sort of the same thing. Started a two year program to feed the other school.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (00:23) Well, what was his specialty? Was he in bacteriology? Me

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (00:25) and it was virology, virology.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (00:29) And who else joined us?

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (00:31) Well, we got another immunologist, Leonard English and Dr. Berlin and brought postdoctoral person with him who was a virologist, Jim Akers. And Jim stayed on for a few years. And then let's see what he heard Paul Fletcher. And he heard Luva Muller, personally that he had a student that he had known at Kansas. And and then I believe the next person that was hired was Henry Stone, who also was from Kansas, but it was from the University of Kansas rather than Kansas

Jon Dembo Part 2 (01:17) State. Was this at 76. Well, let's

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (01:20) say it was 82, by the time Henry started. So this is this is sort of over a couple of years, period. And then then there were two other people that had been hired Carlo brewski, and Carolyn Stabler a little later. And they came after we moved into this field.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (01:42) And did you all attempt any research projects during that period?

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (01:45) Oh, yes. Yes, we were into research from from the first, as I was saying, the biochemistry people were a little more successful at it.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (01:54) Yeah. Were you were you able to during that period, you had more people developing some programs?

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (02:00) Oh, yes, I, my technician, and I were able to do a few things. And we did one thing that refuted a rather important article in one of the better journals that was done by one of the people at Duke University. And I was a little timid about publishing that, in fact, I gave a paper on it at a national meeting, and was a little bit timid and didn't publish my data, other than to give the paper and pretty soon several other people came out with the same thing. Who had attended that meeting. And it wasn't, it was 10 years later, before I got up the courage to publish that I don't know why I

Jon Dembo Part 2 (02:54) learned about the the work in cooperation with Duke that was going on or what?

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (02:59) Oh, no, it was just simply that they had, they had chosen a group of organisms to work on to determine whether these organisms had a enzyme called superoxide dismutase. And they didn't. And so they thought that the basis of being able to, or having to live without air, like many microorganisms do, what hinged on whether these organisms had this enzyme or not. And we found out that there are a number of anaerobic organisms that cannot live in the presence of air that they do have this enzyme, but something else was the basis for their need for anaerobic conditions. And we've, we've worked a little bit on intestinal flora, that we got interested in otitis media or inflammation of the middle ear. And with how old annual in allied health, we began work on the development of an animal model to study otitis media. And we were kind of competing with some other people across the country on this. The first competition was that the NIH wanted to develop a model and so they asked for people to make proposals about what animal they would use and so on. And we proposed the Mongolian gerbil and other people proposed other animals, including the chinchilla. It just happened that Scott Eubank at Minnesota was the person who won the award for his chinchilla model. And so he got a big head start on this, but we went on and developed the the alternate model and it It has paid off because a lot of the drug companies prefer this animal to the chinchilla, and efficacy studies for antibiotics and other drugs or research with us. Oh, yes.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (05:17) Go back just a minute. Could you give me a sense of how things were in Greenville at the time that you all arrived? I mean, this was sort of a bold venture for people, you know, you were in the middle range of your career and things were you we're pretty well settled, and the two sides of it. Can you tell me something about that side of it? And then also something about the actual city and the living conditions and education sessions? Do you recall? Well, the career side of it was a gamble for starting

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (05:54) the career side of it was a gamble. And once we came here, we found out how much of a gamble it really

Jon Dembo Part 2 (06:02) was, you really didn't know until you arrived, you haven't? Well, not much information.

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (06:08) Well, the the fact that I had gone into industry for a year makes it made it a little bit hard to get back into academia. And having known Mike Schweiz style, and having his recommendation that things would go well here. Trust. That's right. So I think that was those were some of the things that I had in mind wanting to get back into academia, this was a very opportune time and place to do it for me. And knowing Mike's why style and knowing how enthusiastic he was about things here. And actually, when I came down here, the the group of people that had been put together was a very enthusiastic group. And everyone worked very, very hard. Doing all kinds of things that were outside of our usual work areas to further the School of Medicine, we even ran a sort of like an underground newspaper for the legislature, and provided them with information through through this. But, of course, that was wild over yet. But we all dealt with things like that. And we had to do a lot of work. Planning ahead as to what we would do if we were given this opportunity by the legislature if we were given that opportunity. And I have a whole file drawer full of stuff that I just sort of kept as, as time went on, it was very injury. Interesting. Oh, yes, very interesting to see the development. So that that too, is, you know, kind of an attractive thing. Excitement, yeah, something something. And something that one could have some input into and develop

Jon Dembo Part 2 (08:09) and achieve something. That's,

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (08:12) that's right. And then I felt to like, that I might be able to contribute, because the College of Dentistry at Kentucky, you know, was conceived in a different light than the standard medical, or the standard Dental School of the time. And they had a lot of ideas regarding curriculum, and they had a lot of ideas about how to build the basic science and clinical teaching together. And I think that was that was interesting, and certainly instructive to me. And I thought it would be useful in a setting like this. And so for a number of reasons. I just naturally came here, I had another opportunity of laboratory veterans hospital that I could have considered, but I decided to try this and stay at and that was an adventure. That's right. It wasn't an advantage. And the other thing, too, I think was we wanted to stay in this area. You were Virginians, and this is not too far from where my wife came from. And so we were we were interested in staying in North Carolina if we could.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (09:37) Well about the other side of it. How what, what kind of a place was Greenville when you arrived in that? What How did you find this?

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (09:43) Well, the town? Well, the the school was one that was obviously growing, both physically and I think in educational stature, it had a long ways to go. It still had As a way to go, I think in some ways, but it, it was an interesting place to. And you know, it's funny how things happen to people. I had heard of a job here back in the 19. And I guess it was the early 1960s. And I had come here, having heard that there was job here, but not knowing very much about it or heard about it through a friend of North Carolina State. And I was living in Pennsylvania at the time. And so I had been Greenville before, and had seen East Carolina University, because I came down here and interviewed for a job in the biology department, it turned out that they wanted somebody with different backgrounds, and I had, so it didn't, didn't work out. But it's curious that I had come here and interviewed for a job once before, and then this other an entirely different thing opened up years later. But Greenville was, you know, a small town. We had, I guess we were sort of more interested in in not too large places,

Jon Dembo Part 2 (11:16) was housing problem.

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (11:18) Housing was a problem when we first came here, because Burroughs welcome had just moved in and brought most of their people here. And then 18 months before we had, we came here and housing was at a premium. In fact, I had to pay more for the same square footage of house here than in Chapel Hill and Chapel Hill, you know, he was sort of always has been a very expensive place in terms of housing. So, you know, there were, there were a couple of things like that, that were a little bit difficult, but in fact, they could only show us for houses in town that met that met our needs. We told them what, generally what needs to be met, and they searched around and said, Well, we've got three or four, we can show you. Numbers choice, not much choice. Well, we've, we've found a lovely home, and we've been in it ever since we came here. So we, my wife and I liked Greenville a lot. We're we're not real gregarious people. And so you know, we have a limited number of friends. In fact, my wife knows and recognizes many more people than I had. But

Jon Dembo Part 2 (12:42) did you find it hard to get into the community into No, no, no,

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (12:45) not at all? Not at all,

Jon Dembo Part 2 (12:47) as much as you wanted to?

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (12:48) Oh, yes. Oh, yes.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (12:50) I've heard people say that they found they've always felt themselves outside this year, no matter how long this day,

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (12:56) some people might. And I know some of the people in our neighborhood, one or two that tried to make us feel that way. They called us Yankees. My family had probably been in the South, as many years as theirs had been, couldn't have been much more because my family came to the southern United States in the 1640s. So

Jon Dembo Part 2 (13:24) most people, many Europeans here before they,

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (13:28) but I think what they meant when they called people Yankees were people that were from outside of Pitt County. Anyhow, now there was there was very little of that really. I think my two older children maybe felt it more. I think they were both high school age at the time. And I think they felt that quite a bit. We also had a younger child, who was 10 years younger than the older boys. And so he came here as a as a two year old and grew up here. And he didn't eat it very well, that very well grown up here. And there were a group of children that came through the schools about and he did all all them extremely well. And all of the all of those children are off in the universities now.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (14:29) The schools were good. I thought the schools were

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (14:33) were were quite adequate.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (14:39) They didn't have any crowding problem, and

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (14:42) not too much. Not too much. There was still a little of the racial tension, particularly in high school, but that that didn't seem that didn't seem to be in the in the grade school. Okay.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (14:58) We were talking about the period between the time that the one year school closed the two years during which you all were preparing now, when the four year school opened up, where there are many changes in the situation and all atmosphere. And could you just chat a bit about the things that happened at that point? Well, it

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (15:17) was a very exciting time Dr. Loftus had come. He had the foresight to see that he needed residency programs in the hospital to support our clinical teaching

Jon Dembo Part 2 (15:32) this. They were beginning to become connected with big Kennedy Memorial.

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (15:37) Yes. Yes, those arrangements really started way back even in the one year period, because I know that at least on one occasion, while they sent me to one of the local hospitals with a big packet of information, they were working together on a on a on an agreement they on so all of these agreement, things started way, way

Jon Dembo Part 2 (16:03) earlier than when did they build the bid towers? I guess that was in the year, the school? That was 70.

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (16:09) Yeah, they were Yeah, they were doing that in about. Yeah, they started that about that time. And then, by the time Dr. Lawless came here, and the money was released to him, he put a fair amount of the money into building the clinical teaching areas that are on the front of the two original bed towers, and started the residency programs, and hired quite a number of clinical faculty and really got things, things going. And so he every person, I think that that had a leadership role here, even though they may not have agreed on, on what the deal details and so on each one of them had, I think, a part to play at a different time. That was was critical. And Bill office came at a time when it was really critical that certain things be done. And he had the foresight to do some things that that possibly some other people wouldn't have. And I think the starting the residency programs, and getting the clinical faculty in and having a residency program for them to work with, before the students got to that point was was very important.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (17:37) And did it have a great deal of what was the effect of his arrival on the basic sciences programs was just a matter of expansion or?

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (17:46) Well, I think he was he was in favor of expanding the basic science programs I never really felt in a in a threatening or anything threatening from the advent of the clinical component coming coming here, we all look forward to that we look forward to finding areas that we could work together and cooperate. And all along even even from the time before Dr. Lawless came here, we always said we wanted to have a medical center. That was a cooperative sort of a place with Cooperative people and to try to avoid some of the bad personalities that you were talking about that surfaced in Kentucky. We want to try to avoid those kinds of people. And I think largely we did that I think of the medical centers that I know, this is probably one of the nicest places let's contour. Yes, s&t. And so I'm real pleased with that, because that was something that we talked about early on back in the one year program and, and and that's, that's been the the thrust of the search for people, I think all along. And this worked out, worked out very well. And so Dr. Lawless came and he had his his era here, I think. I think Dr. Lawless was never really willing to admit some of the importance of what went on in the one year program here. But then again, of course, his job was to come and build a four year program and he did that. I think he had maybe a better base to build on and he might have realized but or least admitted to a lot of people. But he came in he did just a wonderful job here. And he had his own mode of operations. I think. I think the school kind of outgrew that, by the time that, that he decided to step down, and I think we have a little bit more open administration now, you feel that a level but the schools moved into a different area.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (20:31) Three years actually, the impetus that you got in the initial period carried over and worked in the favor of the beginning of the four years?

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (20:42) Oh, yes. I think there's no doubt about that, that that convinced the legislature that, that we could do it here. I think having a cadre of people here in the basic sciences that were that wanted to see a good medical school Bill was was very important.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (21:07) And it sounds as if you all establish a lot of personal basis, one on one basis, a good deal of strong working relationship, even with the schools that were so friendly.

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (21:19) Yeah, yes, I think so. Well, you know, the schools weren't very friendly, I think from a political overall point of view, but the individual faculty were lacking. Good professionals, were always willing to help a colleague, and, and that that came through very, very clearly from the other medical schools in this state, we didn't have as much communication with Bowman Gray, but of course, through professional societies now, we knew those people, and they seem to be supportive of us. But certainly the people who can Chapel Hill, were inducted individually. Very helpful.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (22:11) They see when we needed help, they seem to have been supportive of the students do the teaching, think they all that assisted, that teaching is important. considerations

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (22:23) that try? And I think that was a very beautiful thing that that happened. And of course, I think that the highest of professionalism.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (22:43) I think we've covered most of the points that I had in mind. I was particularly interested in your comments on the earliest period and the transition. Do you have any general sense of how things have gone other than what you said that you would like to sort of round things up with or any things that you remember that you'd like to talk about?

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (23:11) Well, I think way back in one year program, there was a lot of interest in what was going to happen. And I particularly remember, at least one faculty member, I won't name him because he's still an active faculty member on the other campus who, who, every time there was a nasty editorial in one of the larger observer, particularly the News and Observer, why he would get on his bicycle and pedal down to my house and asked me if I still had a job. Of course, he was just kind of needling me in a friendly sort of way. But there was a lot of interest in in, in what was going on. And I think while a lot of the faculty on the university campus, maybe were a little afraid of having a medical school, I think, deep down, they were a little bit pleased and proud that the state would want to locate one on on their campus,

Jon Dembo Part 2 (24:20) it seems to have been the route for getting graduate programs, one of the major routes

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (24:26) Well, that's That's correct. They've had a graduate program at the masters level at the University for some time, but the doctoral programs even though a number of the departments probably couldn't do that very well right now. It's been difficult to get them started partly because they duplicate other programs but partly because it's just I think, then hard for the university to to build towards that and A sort of political sense and coming of age, so to speak, since the universities growth from teachers college to university has been so rapid, but I think all that will come and, and and hopefully, our doctoral program here will help them to achieve the things that they want at least that's the way I would like to do it.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (25:27) Have you seen any impact of the microwave network, and the easy communication now between between the medical schools in the area?

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (25:38) We were talking about that. The other day I, of course, I've gotten more and more into departmental administration, with the coming of our new chairman, now, and the building of, of this department and the biotechnology program, which consumes a lot of interest in time. And so I have not really had the opportunity to really see how much that is being used. But it's it's my general impression, that even though it's a wonderful facility, that it's it's not being used as much as they could or should they.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (26:25) You're feeling then about the school logo, is it it's on the way up? And it's go? Oh,

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (26:30) yes. Oh, yes, I, I've always felt that way. And I think, I think the accreditation visits that we've had, in recent years, point to the fact that we're doing quite well, for a new medical school, I think the last accreditation was for the full total period that they will accredit. And, and we were always pleased with the accreditation site visits that we've had, we've never really had a bad one, even back in when, in the one year program when we were trying to get some sort of accreditation on our own. And there was a lot of political things that happened, then. I don't think I was here at the time, but there was an early visit. And the visiting team was very pleased with what they saw with the nucleus of basic science faculty. And they said they were going to recommend that we receive accreditation. But the last page of their report never never really appeared in the official report. And we felt that that was squelched by people of influence who had some influence over that, which is unfortunate, I think, because that that was unfortunate, because I think that that sort of underhanded politics should not be in an accreditation process, but it was at that time and but I don't think there's I don't it certainly hasn't been a problem since then. Anyway.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (28:24) Well, I appreciate your spending your time with me. I think we write it over the area.

Robert Fulghum Part 2 (28:33) Well, I enjoy doing it. I'm sorry that I ramble on and don't get to the point sometimes, but it's interesting to recall some of these things. I would like perhaps even to try to recall more of it sometime.

Jon Dembo Part 2 (28:52) We can do this again if you like. Okay, I appreciate it very much.