Oral History InterviewJames Mitchell, IntervieweeDanele Williams, InterviewerOctober 20, Greenville, NC[BEGINNING OF SIDE 1]DW: 0:00 Danele Williams interviewing James Mitchell, October 20th, in Greenville, North Carolina, and we're starting off, my first question now is, where are you originally from?JM: 0:15 Originally born and raised in Raleigh, North Carolina. DW: 0:19 All right. Well, what was it like growing up at that time in Raleigh?JM: 0:22 In Raleigh? Well, where we were located, it was, I guess it was very easy, pretty much, growing up there. I mean, it was in the South, but Raleigh was a pretty progressive city, and we were in a situation where the state was beginning to recognize that they needed to make changes in their racial, race relationship. The high school later became Enloe high school, was the first high school below the Alexandria, Virginia that integrated opened up in 1962, that, an integrated high school. And so I think, you know, overall, it was, it was, it was great. Raleigh's not a particularly bad doing, it was a big city, and everything. You still had a lot of woods that we played in and everything. So, we had some city activities like going to park, playing little league baseball, and then we had a kind of a rural environment, we were still us kids going out and making camps in the woods and getting plums and berries out of the woods and catching tadpoles and crayfish. So, you know, I think it was a very good childhood through adolescence.JM: 0:35 And what did your parents do for a living?JM: 1:50 My mom, well, at the time I was born, my mother was working at Pullen Community Center, which was a program for preschool children. She was an elementary school teacher, and then when I got, when I got high school, about 10th grade, she went back teaching elementary. My dad was a chef out the Holiday Inn as a young kid, and he worked part-time out the [unintelligible] to get my, get my sisters through college. So, you know, two parents, and I guess you say at that time, you know, pretty much Black middle class.DW: 2:37 So, what was their educational experience?JM: 2:39 My mom graduated from Shaw. My daddy went to Shaw, but I don't think dad ever finished. My mother was originally, her family originally out of South Carolina, eastern part of South Carolina. My dad was a Wake County kid, I think he was born and raised in Zebulon, then his parents moved around when he was a pretty [unintelligible] young kid, and everything. So, the Mitchells, I guess, are very much Raleigh, [unintelligible] North Carolina bound, and my grandfather was, family was out of Johnston County, which is adjacent to Wake County.DW: 3:23 Well, how did your parents feel when you said you were going to ECU?JM: 3:26 They thought it was great. I mean, I guess going back to, I guess explaining the education and my parents, my, there was four kids. I have three sisters, two older, one younger. All of us went from first to eighth grade in parochial school, St. Monica, a little Black school, Catholic school, up on Tarboro Road. My two older sisters attended the Catholic High School. My oldest one, sister graduated from Cathedral, was at that time the high school, and then later on, they built Cardinal Gibbons. And my second oldest sister graduated from Cardinal Gibbons. And so the idea of education, when I say the idea of education in an innovative situation, wasn't foreign to my parents, and I think the idea was that we needed to get out, I mean, into the broader world, and you know, try to, you know, build our lives. So, I went to Enloe, which was also like, I say integrated then, an integrated high school. So, I think it was a natural progression. I think that's what, I guess that's what they would see it as, going to East Carolina. I didn't go to NC State because my sisters went to school at [unintelligible] and looking at the problems they had with parental involvement as they matured, I chose to leave town to avoid that whole situation, and I had a number of high school teachers that graduated from ECU, and that was one of the reasons why I picked it.DW: 5:28 Did you ever consider going to a Historical Black College?JM: 5:33 No. Back at that time with the Civil Rights Movement and the feeling of the Civil Rights Movement and trying to bring ourselves again into the broader world, I honestly did not see where we could afford not to go to some of the major white institutions, and everything. I had nothing against the Black colleges, I think they served a very strong purpose. But if that was, I thought, and looking back probably a pivotal time in our history of people in development, because prior to that time, we didn't have any options, and then at that time, we started having options and were seriously considering, in other words, there were not undue road blocks put in our way. In other words, we didn't have to be the super Black person to actually get in to a number of these institutions, and I had several other friends, friends to go to NC State and, out of my graduation class and so, so that, yeah, I mean, I think it was a very natural trip. I think it was the thing to do for us to, I guess, to not only, education wise, but I had a chemistry teacher, asked a chemistry teacher that went to Enloe, and she said, you really, school was not just education, but it was also getting out, partying, and also learning about other people and learning about other situations, and she asked us, and you know, to do that, you know, to go and participate in a number of things and be a bigger part of the university, so you know. I didn't completely follow her advice, but I thought that was one, I thought that was one way of kind of doing that.DW: 7:48 Well, how was the ECU atmosphere when we first got here? JM: 7:53 Strange. Coming out of Enloe, which was a predominantly white high school integrated, we had about 1,200 students at Enloe when I graduated about, my graduation class was a little over 300 and I guess Black kids at Enloe made up twenty to thirty percent of the student body, and I think they definately have a wide range of Black economic situations. The kids were very active. Black kids were very active in school. They were very progressive. One of my classmates went on to Harvard and then on to Harvard Law School, and a number of others went off and did a number of different things, and they, that, all those differences, which was a lot of them, we were overall pretty close. We didn't there were, I can't think of any real terminal conflict among any groups of Black kids at Enloe at that time. When I came down to East Carolina in '70, fall of '70, I'll say number one, the biggest thing I noticed was the difference. The older kids here, the juniors and seniors, had come out of predominant Black high schools. So when they came to ECU, they had had a very common, consistent Black education, and their concepts of things were different than the people coming in my age group, which just about everybody Black coming in with my class and then subsequent classes came out of integrated high schools, at least, and so, so we knew white students that were classmates, that we came in with. They're the first white students they actually got to know, was white students that were already here on campus for the most part, at least from a freshman, that's how it appeared. Then the other thing that appeared was that they were, and not all of them, but quite a few were not totally inclusive. They, what I used to kind of look at as the senior mentality that, "we've been here, we know what to do, we know what to say," and the only organization that was a Black organization on campus, actually, at that time, was a group called, acronym for SOULS and, and different conversations with people in, early, from there, earlier on, SOULS, early on, was trying to be an integrated class, oh integrated group, and they had some conflicts with some of the white kids that came in at that came in at that time, and so then that turned them off from being that, with that kind of involvement. And so their relationships to the well, I really know the relationship overall to the main, you know, student body in school, these were different people of conversation, but their relationship with a lot of us was that they didn't listen to anything we had to say, as a freshman and everything. I was pretty quiet and pretty much to myself. I had two or three friends that were out there and about. They tried to be active members and so stuff like that, that was their take on a lot of things. And then I did know a kid from Raleigh. I had, I knew him from preschool. His mother used to work at kindergarten my mother worked at, and he was enrolled and I wasn't, he wasn't in parochial school. We were not close, close friends, but it was that common familiarity thing, and he was a junior my freshman year. And to relate a situation, a conversation with him, he had gone, he was a Catholic. He had gone all the way through Catholic schools, Catholic high schools, so then therefore, his education was an integrated situation and probably not normal in those juniors and seniors where they were, the other Black kids had. He told me, he said that the, when he came in, said sometimes the Black kids had problems with ostracizing other Black kids who did not basically fit into what they were doing. And there was now was kids falling into this situation, because you came in and there were a number of white kids from high school who still associated with them, still dealing with them, and everything. And we had two or three conversations, and actually, later on that school year, dropped out, and I think he actually ended up going to Central A&T later on. And it was, it was odd to me, because prior to that time, he had no conflict with the Blacks, okay, and it was kind of odd to say that somebody else is going to force a conflict on you about, to some degree, about himself, you know, I mean, because he very much felt, he was a Black person and he, you know, you know, he was not a, I want to say he would never been a popular person, because he wasn't the kind of person that was dancing, but he was nice, quiet guy, very smart, kind of on the geek side of things, but, but he was troubled by his experiences there and here, and that was one of, and that set the tone pretty much, I think, my freshman year. I made some very close friends, a small group of guys, we became very close. And actually it was, the odd thing is, I think, at one time or another, all that year, we all considered transferring, and it got to be a thing where nobody wanted to transfer, to leave the other person, all the people that were there, you know. And one of the guys from Durham, I know he had very tough time, because his, I guess his background was very similar to mine, the one of our friends who didn't have a real problem with it was from some very small rural town, and we used to laugh, it was the most people he's seen at one time in one place! So, so the, he understood the conflict that lived because of the separation. But where he was from was extremely small, so it didn't, you know, really didn't bother him, where my friend from Durham, we used to get, now going and doing more things, and also the way we interact with other people, you know, we were used to interacting with, say, with young ladies, and not, if you've been seen more than one time with you weren't necessarily dating and everything, and just, you know, you know. Female friends from high school and down here that took on, well, initially, wasn't a lot of young ladies around the high school, but the young ladies aroung that school didn't date anyway, and the guys that did, well, or were out, it seemed like that was a bigger, bigger issue than just, you know, just sort of just casual, social fly. [dog barking in background]Speaker 1 16:43 Okay, well, what the campus look like, being, at that time?JM: 16:47 The main part of campus, except, was pretty much like it is except we didn't have the rec centers, we didn't have nothing at all at that time. So, that part of campus was, wasn't even under construction, nothing was happening on that end, because it was smaller. Didn't have, if I recall, the art center and, but the Hill we go up the Hill to the cafeteria, it's still the Hill. And the center of, see you was, it was that part of, right in the bookstore. Matter of fact, that's where I met my wife, hanging out in the card room! That's where she lived at, though she was, actually, that's what all the Black kids, pretty much, were doing in the middle of the school day. They sort of gather in the card room, playing. DW: 16:47 So where is the card room?JM: 17:19 The card room was in the old CU, on the second floor. And that was, the old CU was adjacent to, to right now, the bookstore and that little grill or something down there, and that area, and if you went like through the grill area, it was a stairway that you could actually enter to like a vestibule area out there, and were part of the CU. And then you went upstairs, and then there was several rooms up there, and the big room was what you called the card room, big main room, which was the, my freshman year, was probably one of the major centers of all our activity and entertainment during the day in between classes when kids were out, like, you know, when the Black kids weren't in class, they were usually playing cards and stuff. And then later on, we had a couple of parties up there. The problem with having parties up there was that we had to be outside like 12:00 to 12:30, you know. And then we used to do, what we did, like a singing, somewhat like a talent showing up. But initially it was extremely casual. You know, you just saw that one evening, everybody with a bunch of people around, and those that could do something or had a little something to say, would do it. And then later on, people began to actually put things together. And it became a very good source of entertainment, because it was actually, some kids had some real talent, and everything, so we'd think. And then even those that couldn't, it was, it was entertaining also, you know, but it was but, but it was, I was really surprised at times the level, my wife's best friend, had a beautiful voice [phone rings] and she often did not sing, you know. And I remember two or three times, she was singing, actually, the first time I remember, I was sitting around with the guys, and all their mouths dropped and slammed over there, that was how well she was singing, because a couple of them had had arguments with her earlier, you know, which means that it kind of like annoyed to start off with, and they were going "man," you know. But she never really did a lot of, that was one thing she never wanted to, kind of, pursue. But the campus from coming back over from Ficklen, coming up to the Hill, coming down to the main part of campus, except for the area back over there, like I said by the rec center, a lot of it's still pretty much the same. They put in a couple other buildings, I really don't name, but for the most part, you know, we can walk around in there and not feel like we're going to get lost out of place. I mean, the Mall is exactly like it is, and everything. I didn't go in the, I haven't been in the biology and business complexes, exactly the same like it was back during then. But one interesting thing about campus, that first year actually, my wife came up the second year, still there was so few of us that you would be walking across campus, you know, in between classes, and let's say you would be on one end of the Mall, and you see somebody on the other end of the Mall and they would be waving different cards and [unintelligible] and it took me a while to realize that after seeing it a couple times, what it was was they were other Black folks! [James laughing] You go out in this, like all these Black students are way off. That's why you see this hand, and it just be waving just as hard as they could. And then after a while, it got to be a thing. We were just acknowledging each other over, you know, and so, and I think that also stated to the, I guess, the separation issue, you know, I mean and, and also acknowledging that, hey, you know, we not exactly out here by yourself and everything, which is, which a lot of time, I think students, particularly in your freshmen year, you can feel anyway. I mean, in talking to people later on, the freshmen year sometimes can be kind of long time anyway. So, given that we had the additional situation of the numbers, you know, I'll say less than 200 I don't know what the official number was but I think SOULS from what I remember, they say they thought it was about 130 kids on campus, Black kids on campus freshman year. But again, that's not official, that's just a number I just recall. But I can say, you know, for the most part, you know, there weren't a lot of us around, and everything, and that's the other part of the campus. When I walk around and I stop and I think about it now, I can remember going, leaving the CU area, and heading toward, because I was a biology major heading over toward the biology area, and then seeing somebody beyond that coming out from the sociology buildings and things, and really seeing people waving and stuff and everything, you know, and you wave and, you know you go in, and you know, and I guess it didn't make you have to cry, it did make you feel a little bit better. It became kind of a joke among us too. I think after a while we were probably being a little bit too [unintelligible].Speaker 1 23:49 You mentioned the card room, what else did you do after [unintelligible] them extracurricular activities?JM: 23:57 Okay, say let's take the weekend. Friday night, because we had an interesting experience with my daughter being in the fashion show, in Wright auditorium, and my wife and I just, you know, we were just amazed at how much, much improved the Wright interior looked than when we were students at that time, where, they had these hard wooden chairs, and what they used to do Friday, might have also Saturday, I know Friday night, that's when we'd go, they have free movies on campus, it was in Wright auditorium, usually I and a couple of the guys, we would sit up in the balcony, pretty much near the enterance coming in. After the movie was over, we generally walked downtown to at that time, it was a club called the Buccaneer, and you might go down there. The Buccaneer, well I mean, it played a little Black music off, now and then, it wasn't, you know, you know, we go down, maybe have a couple of beers, you know, stay down there for an hour or so, go get something to eat, and usually somewhere around about 11:00 or so, we would be back in the dorm. My biggest memory, it'll be like, four guys playing cards, playing [unintelligible] playing cards with about half a dozen or more guys around the room waiting to be up next. So, we'll do that to like, two or three o'clock in the morning and everything, and get up the next morning and then go over to one of the gyms and play basketball for a while. You know, they happen to look at look at the game then, and then, pretty much Saturday, probably just kind of dissipated into almost nothing for the most part. Occasionally, there will be you know, little activities on campus, that you may kind of drift in and out of. You know, just a lot of, a that time there was a lot of, a lot of card playing, a lot of playing in the room, a lot of times with the other male counterparts of ours. Again, there were not a lot of, I think the numbers, it appeared to be that there were more Black males on campus than actually Black females. Or the Black females that were on campus, some of them turned out to be very studious, so then that means that sometimes they weren't very sultry, and everything. And because it was couple of girls, I remember seeing like the first couple times, the first of the year, and I don't think I saw them again up until the end of the school year, and everything, and so that also impacts your social life greatly. And that's why I said the other thing about the card room, I think that year, maybe two or three different times they'd put together something, maybe on a Saturday evening up in the card room for somebody brought stereo equipment out and played and everybody got together, and we danced, and you know we had a big time up until about 12:00-12:30 that night! [James laughs]DW: 27:19 Now what dorm did you stay in?JM: 27:20 I stayed in just about everyone up on the Hill. I stayed in Aycock, I think, my freshman year, Scott my sophmore year, Jones my junior year, and Belk my senior year. So I was, I was a complete Hill addict, you know, I didn't go anyplace else, but right there. Belk, I think I enjoyed that, my senior, by the time my senior year got, rolled around, I really began to enjoy the campus and the people I got to know. DW: 27:56 And did you join any organizations? JM: 27:59 Yes, my freshman year, I came in, the class ahead of us, a young man, well actually John White was a junior, but it was mostly made up of Kenny Ham, Jerry Connelly, and Jimmy Lewis. They were starting a chapter or trying to get a chapter, of Alpha Phi Alpha. And Dr. Andrew Best, who was the Black physician here in town, was spearheading it. So my buddy, Tommy Patterson, [unintelligible] we also, we pulled in, actually, after we took, we took the impression that we didn't know enough to know anything, but we went on and attended all the meetings we participated in, and then we got the chapte, and later on that year in the spring. And so, yeah, it was and that was pretty nice. I mean, I think it gave us another outlook beyond just the SOULS, which for, well, I didn't really participate, I think for a couple of guys, so that experience was a little frustrating.DW: 29:30 Was there many other Black fraternities or were y'all the first?JM: 29:32 No, we were the first Black frat on campus. By the time I left school as a senior the, and there were no Black sororities. The AKA Deltas was one, and then the Omegas, and the Kappas were one. During the time that we were, I think they came on maybe my junior year, and Mike Jones was the first Omega president, can't think of who was the Kappa president. And we just had casual conversations that even though we knew historically, the competition and the, between those fraternities, and we just, then we thought that we needed to be careful, and everything, because you know, some bantering [phone rings] was fine and everything, but we, but not to really help them cut each other and stab each other in the back, because we feel, the way we saw it was that this was an outlet for more expression, individual expression. In other words, instead of having one organization with some leadership in it, you then had several organizations which young men get to develop [unintelligible] their leadership skills and organizational skills and but, but not to, but to be mindful of our situation. That, you know, we were still a very small group and, and still it was a very changing world, you know. In other words, the idea of even having Black people around. I mean, I don't know what white people were thinking, but I'll imagine, you know, we still were not commonplace. So, anything that you did, which lay on us for some of the things that happened, the Omegas who historically brand each other, I think at first line, they brand each other, you know, it got kind of bad. And one of the guys who traditionally was not very Omega-like went to the infirmary and the university definitely had strong policy about hazing and this kind of thing, and so, what happened was, when it came back, it didn't come back at Omega. It came back with Alpha, because we were, had been there a couple of years earlier, and also the university knew that's the best. So then right there, there's an example of then, okay, and there's not a distinction among you as individuals, or even the recognition of your individual organization. It's just that there was a Black fraternity and everything, and so I don't know if that ever carried much beyond those years that we were here in school and everything, but that was a belief, was an idea that we tried to uphold for ourselves.JM: 30:06 Well, how was the faculty, you know, with classes?JM: 32:55 I thought it was pretty much okay. Okay, first of all, I think, number one, you have to go back, I think, when we came in, and most of us were coming into this situation, particularly back during then, you, idea was, okay, I'm not looking for anything of anybody, okay, so then, and when I say that, and in talking to some of the other, my other friends, stuff that, and that was my idea, we didn't, we didn't get together and express that's how it was, how we felt. But later on, in just some general conversations and stuff like that, I would say that probably that for the most part, most of us were feeling that way. And so when you feel that way, you know, you just say, you know you're not going to pick a person in depth and everything, because you, you know, because you already coming in, maybe with that somebody is liable to have some feelings. Anyway, like I said, it's not a normal situation. Probably had instructors that maybe was never toward Black [unintelligible]. So, but on that note, there was in a, in that department, I had, I had a couple of my frat brothers and friends that were [unintelligible] and there was, I can't think of his name, let me think here, George, he was the captain of the football team, he was a senior that year, and which was unusual, and George was also a math major. And George asked, with a conversation with, about this particular person, and George said the man told him, asked him, said, why you want to be a math major? Because we were always good with our hands, you know. And, and my friend also got the same thing couple of years later from the same person, and so, but they, they went through, both of them, graduate math degrees, that might have been his perception. The thing was, if it was, he didn't do it, he didn't put any road blocks in front of them too, you know, and I think that was the bigger thing, but it was the kind of thing that, basically, I won't say it was commonplace, but, you know that's, off the top, that's about the only one I can remember, because usually what happens is when your college most students complain about instructors, anyway you know. You got instructors that aren't instructing you, you got instructors that, boy you're going to have to bust your [unintelligible] so, that I don't think that that was a particular issue [unintelligible]. DW: 36:11 Well, you mentioned the clubs downtown earlier, so was any open to you as far as going in?JM: 36:19 Yeah, we could go into any place downtown, the Buccaneer the Elbow Room, there was another place. But the thing was, okay, back during then, a lot of white students were listening to very hard rock kind of music, you know, late '60s early '70s Motown, and very easy, very mellow, Black music was out and that's what we were basically into. So basically, you didn't go, not because so much that wasn't that you could or could not go, you didn't go because they could, because of the situation. In other words, music wasn't there. There was one place, and I liked them because they did have the Black music and Archie Bell.Speaker 3 37:24 Archie Bell and the DrellsJM: 37:27 Because they were out in Texas. But, you know, and you know, bunch of us were there having a big time and stuff, but that was kind of unusual and everything. And sometimes you just went just, if nothing else, just sit around, and you know, if I wasn't doing anything I'd just look in [unintelligible] because sometimes that was all there was [unintelligible]. Unknown Speaker 37:54 So how you feel about ECU's general treatment of African-Americans, and how they handle it, you know, going in? JM: 38:01 Well I think what happened was I, you know, I heard some of the kids that came in ahead of us, because, again, there was a graduation class as a freshman in 1970, and their experiences were different. Like I said, I think by the time we got here in '70, I think number one, I think that the university was actually trying, and I think that's very important. The president of the university, Leo Jenkins, was supportive of as, and I guess it was the [unintelligible] what doctor he had a relation with Dr. Henry Ferrell and, and, I think Dr. Ferrell went on and became one of those people on the board of trustees, or something like that. And, but, but he was a very interesting man, in regards that he was probably the strongest advocate of ECU, here. In other words, we used to be known as E.C.T.C. and you know, for our teachers policy. The school itself, at the time had an identity crisis. We were 85 miles from any, from any and everybody up here. I always say, growing up in Raleigh, NC State, and Chapel Hill, and Carolina, have a natural hate relationship, very competitive. ECU was at a time of looking for somebody to start, we're, we were like the little brother that was looking for somebody to fight with us, just so that we could develop something. And I think that became the universally bigger mission, not the fact that whether or not the African-American students [unintelligible] you know, but to be negative and we not, we are going to stop this, this progression that has started. I think, in that way, I think the school was a lot like the city of Raleigh. They recognized that, okay, if we want to grow and change, we have to have higher goals and ideals. Because they, because those years they started the medical school, okay. And they had conflicts with people at UNC about the medical school. They had bigger fish to fight. And then, then, actually, really wasn't too many years after they started medical school, young man who, Dr. Mallette, who I was in high school with his brother David, and they were a couple years older than I am, didn't know Dr. Quintin Mallette, I got out of school, I was taking a class over at NC State, and Quentin was over at State finishing up, we just had a science class together. He later came to med school, med school, and so those were still very early years so, and he's still here in town, or part of it, you know. So, you know, I think that overall, I think they, they've done a very good job of being supportive. We went from, I know, very few Black students here when I started, of course, everybody here at that time, when we went out to other places, we I think we also promoted [unintelligible]. And the school, because I can remember by the time, I had gone to summer school a couple of times, and by the time I was leaving the, there were people coming in to go to summer school that had gone up, they were from Kinston and other surrounding communities that, in the past, and after they were in school they did A&T, or Elizabeth City, or Central, and everything. And when we would run across people, they would come down from out of these areas and say hey, you know, we are in here, wanted to drop by and you know, and we are trying to do something, you know, and I think, I think maybe that can also help bring in a number of kids. I think that they, that they, I think there may have been a fear of not being welcome, that was, or having, and maybe even actually having some unseen hostility. And, you know, we say well no, we are up here having a good time, stuff like that and everything, that they say, hey, why should I? You know, you know, go the extra distance, mile, you know, 21 miles between here and Kinston, you know, I go to school at East Carolina, you know. And so, so yeah, I'm satisfied that the, that the, that the administration was very, I used to say enlightened and progressive.DW: 43:22 Well, speaking of that, how was your relationship with the people, the locals, as they call them? [Danielle laughs]JM: 43:28 [James laughs] [unintelligible] I wasn't out about in town that much so, Greenville was very small. My early memories of the local, the local Black community, which a couple of guys, they did not, but one of the guys I was in school with actually married young lady from Greenville. I think he got, he got married while he was in college. He had met her when she was a junior, senior in high school and a year or two later, by the time she finished she left, I mean, she graduated, they got married, and everything and. But overall, when you have young men and you don't have adequate females, there can be, there can be some conflict. So then, quite naturally, in a lot of other areas, when you have young men, yapping their numbers, but it's not, and there were no major conflicts. But there was some, some little joints that, okay, we talked about the Buccaneer and those school, those, those things that were college oriented, they had little clubs down on the other side of town, Cavalier and stuff, and the older Black kids, you know, we would go down and be part, this part of the community. I'm there looking at the man, Uncle Ralph, and I'm not going to places like that when I am at home. I said you, I know I'm not going to a place where nobody knows, you know. And, and two of the guys, I had friends who were on the track team, you know, because they love to go, right? Of course, they got chased out a couple of times, but they were on the track team, so it didn't bother them at all, you know! So, you know, so I said, no, no, that doesn't work. That doesn't work for Jim. You know, the older community, you know, they're, you know, yeah, they like the idea, you know, when you go out. I especially remember the Champ because, because they would stop drinking, and say, you know, I'm glad to see you here, and older people were, you know. But I think, at that time, you know, the biggest conflict, [unintelligible] the toll school had with the community, I used to like, say, when, at that time, in the middle of all the stuff with the Civil Rights Movement, environmental movement, the women's movement [END OF SIDE 1]