[BEGINNING OF SIDE 2]DP: 0:01 There were, in the time you're talking about here, there are a lot of social changes in ECU and in America as a whole. What, what kind of feeling was on campus in 1959 when the first Black student came to ECU and it was integrated?JS: 0:22 Well, we we got through it without the rioting. And I had African Americans in my classes, and I think by the time they had started coming here, the idea of integration was more or less accepted. There was, of course, in the 1950s the so called Pearsall Plan, which had would have segregated the school, but the Brown versus Board of Education really put a quietus on that. And I think Terry Sanford, as a leader, as a governor, did a lot to promote a progressive attitude in North Carolina. We did have one little incident. I was chairman of the discipline committee, and the African American students, for some reason, felt that they were being discriminated against, and they decided that they would foul up the waiting line at the cafeteria to stop operations there. We had a case, we had a hearing for them, brought them in, discussed it, and the members of the faculty, this was, this was quite a contentious issue. The members on my committee were not at all pleased with their conduct, so we put them on probation. We didn't expel, but we told them, don't, don't, don't try that again on us. We're just not going to tolerate that kind of activity. And I think it, I think it worked, as far as I know, we didn't have any rioting on campus. They held up this, the cafeteria line. But it was, it was a minor incident.DP: 2:36 What about the department? What was the atmosphere in the department? Did you talk amongst yourselves about it? JS: 2:33 Well, I think, I think most members, Dr. Brewster, for example, he was very much opposed to the Pearsall Plan. He knew about this before we came so we, we were aware of it. I, it may be that there were certain members of the faculty who might, I don't think, really, well, there may have been one or two exceptions, who were considered racist. But you see, a lot of our faculty were trained in Illinois and other states, and they were aware of this. Pasty from the University of Illinois, for example, Herschberg was a northerner in English, Poindexter, says they were, they were progressive, and the idea that we would have anything really racist in our department, we had one case, by the way, who was, who was fired and peremptorily fired because of his conduct. Do you want me to give his name? DP: 2:38 Is his name LeBaron? JS: 2:48 Yeah, yeah. I'm getting around to that. DP: 3:10 Dr. Price, mentioned it.JS: 3:23 Did he tell you about him?DP: 3:40 He just mentioned him. JS: 3:48 Well, I'll tell you a little about it. Cliff Johnson was here, and he was a very popular teacher, and he had already worked in a Black college in Memphis, he was collecting materials from the American Missionary Society, which would eventually become the Armistead collection at Tulane University. So Cliff came with a great deal of promise, and it was obvious that he was very tolerant of African Americans, interested in their history and all, and this character, LeBaron, wrote a fearful letter challenging him to a duel. He said, we can go out to the police firing range. He set it up, and all this; it was the strangest letter I've ever seen! But Cliff brought it to me and showed it to me, we were friends from, longtime friends. I said, well, we'll take it to the chairman of the department, who was Paul Murray at that time. And show it to him. Murray didn't seem to want to do anything with it. I said, well Cliff, we'll go to see the president about it. And we carried it down to Messick's office, and Dr. Leo Jenkins was the dean at that time. Messick was tied up in some kind of a meeting. So we we carried it to Leo Jenkins, and he thought it was the strangest thing he'd ever seen. Well, what would they do about it? They began to check on this character, and they found out that he claimed to be a doctorate from the University of Rome, a doctorate that never existed. He was complete fraud. I thought that they should kick him out immediately, but they they terminated his contract. He didn't stay here. He had a radio program, which he was ultra right-wing program on, on the, not the radio but the TV.DP: 6:00 Was it called History in the News? JS: 6:02 Yeah, yeah. And everybody could see that it was just a right-wing, I mean, it was so far out, no objectivity whatsoever. So we, we managed to get rid of him, but it was a very embarrassing situation. Cliff, not only objected to that, but he, in a way, he objected to the way the chairman acted toward him. He'd have a drink occasionally, the chairman thought that was awful, he couldn't tolerate a professor who had a drink with students or faculty. So Dliff, Cliff was not very happy, and he went back to his job in Tennessee, and then went on to Tulane University, where he set up and has lived for many years. He's retired now, but he organized what is known as the Amistad collection of African American History. It's probably the biggest collection in the United States. He could have brought it here. But as things turned out, it didn't work that way. Tulane, of course, is a first rate university. I used to get reports from the Amistad collection, and when they have receptions for African Americans in New Orleans for the Amistad Research Center, you talk about high society, believe me, it can't get any higher than that, because they are the people who are wealthy, and who accomplished a great deal, and who are giving a lot of money to the Amistad Research Center, and have all that going on in New Orleans. It couldn't happen here, I'm sure, but it's, it was an interesting experience. So he had, he had a distinguished career, although he had that encounter with LeBaron,DP: 7:57 And what happened to him, LeBaron, I mean, what? JS: 8:14 Heaven only knows. Someone told me that he was somewhere teaching a course in marriage relations. I don't, I don't know, but they actually proved that he was complete fraud. As far as his claim to having a doctorate from the University of Rome, which never historically, you know, never existed.DP: 8:37 Dr. Price said that after this incident, that the department had totally overhauled how it looks at who they hire. Is that what you heard?JS: 8:46 Well, we may have but we had a lot of problems with other people who came in who was more or less peremptorily dismissed. We had people come in here who made false claims. We had people who've made all kinds of exaggerated claims about their writings and their research and their reputation and all that. In fact, we had one character come down, purportedly from the University of Massachusetts, who was supposed to have been a specialist in ancient history, and he was reported to have been one of the greatest students who ever received his degree from Yale University. He got here, and he was such a mental case that all he did was carry around a Bible in his hand, and could hardly speak to his students. As far as we know, he could hardly talk, a complete mental case. We put up with that without just telling him to leave. But at the end of the year, he was, of course, told to leave, and he went away claiming that we had ruined his reputation. And we heard that, I really shouldn't be talking about all this stuff, but I guess it's common knowledge in the department. But Herb heard from him, and he was accusing Herbert Paschal of ruining his reputation, that he was in Portland, Oregon, operating an elevator in a hotel. Now, that kind of thing, and that was not too long ago, that was before I retired, but still we had problems, and,DP: 8:46 Things are much better now. JS: 9:20 It's, it's, I think so. And I think now we have procedure. I don't know whether I could even been hired [Joseph laughs] if I had to go through the procedures they do now, they'd want to know all your publications and all that, but,DP: 10:52 When you were teaching there, though, did you have a big workload, like when you would teach?JS: 10:40 Oh, we had 15 hours a week.DP: 9:47 And you had several classes? JS: 9:08 That meant, well, we were in the quarter system, which meant that you were teaching three hours a day, five days a week. We didn't teach on Saturday, and never did get around to that, but,DP: 11:16 Of course, not on Sunday, JS: 11:18 But the classes were big and a lot of,DP: 11:38 About how many students?JS: 11:39 Oh god, there would be 45-50 students. DP: 11:39 Really?JS: 11:39 Sometimes I could have 80 students in a class, as many as they could fit into a room. DP: 11:39 Did you publish at this time, I mean? JS: 11:39 Not much, not much no.DP: 11:40 Because you were so busy teaching?JS: 11:38 That was the point. There was no time to do research. We were worn out teaching hours just to come home and try to prepare for the next day, but in the summertime, and of course, most of us would be teaching one session in the summer. So about all you had was about a six weeks spread there to go and do some research, which I did. I had a Southern Fellowship at Chapel Hill one summer, and from that, I was getting material to do some articles. But I think, I don't know whether you got around to this or not, but the thing that really attracted a lot of interest in the problem, we started the publication, have you heard about that? Well, we started, we talked with Dr. Jenkins about this, and he was convinced that we ought to have some kind of publication in the department. And we went down talking about it, and he set aside some money for us, provided we could get a contract with a printing firm, and it'd be paperback issues, it would be a small book, a collection of essays, and we didn't want to get some shoddy publisher to do it, because we knew that would be a problem just start with so we, we corresponded. We had to have three, three bids on publication of what we proposed to do. And we, our first printer was Kingsport Press in Tennessee, which is a very good publisher. And we brought out the first volume, which was entitled Essays in American History to which I, and other members of the department contributed. I've forgotten how many articles we had, but it was a small, it was a small book. And the second year, we did one each year for a while, the second year, we got the Seaman Printery in Durham, which is a good publisher to do one, and that was called Essays in Southern Biography. And we kept going. And the next year, the, I think our appropriation for this was $500 so if you could imagine nowadays the cost of printing, where that'll go. But we did, we did manage to get the publications out and they were distributed. I think all of them were sold. Eventually we published 500 copies. And the third study was entitled Studies in the History, not essays, but Studies in the History of the South, about 1880 to 1922 which was the date of my birth. I put that in just to make sure they covered when I was born. But that was pretty good study that was really much more extensive than anything we had done before. So we're doing it on a yearly basis. We're turning out one a year, and one of the reviewers writing in one of the journals said he did not understand how a department could produce a volume every year. And I thought, Lord, there's enough research interest around here. We could put out two volumes a year, if we could just get the money. But anyhow, we got pretty good reviews on those things. And Dr. Jenkins, these are all paperback, and Dr. Jenkins was very happy with it. He sent copies around to his friends across the state, and we got letters from the correspondent with politicos. It was good. It was good advertising for the university, and also the department. And Jenkins sent me all the copies of all the letters he received. So I was happy to get some good, good review of what we were doing, and we continued that. And we we did all together. We did six volumes in this series of publications. Lala did one monograph that was the last of the monographs issued, and hers was a full book on the political history of the Farmers Alliance in North Carolina, that was a full, full length study, and it was really, in a way, the most ambitious thing we had done. For some reason, and I don't know why they maybe the department thinks that they can now go on to higher things, but we did six volumes that were great and I felt really good about it.DP: 11:40 What did you think about Mr. Jenkins?JS: 11:40 Oh. He was good friend. I enjoyed it. Leo was alert to everything. I use a, when he, after he became president, and of course, I think the title changed from President to Chancellor, but,DP: 11:40 What about the way he was brought into the job?JS: 11:40 Well, I know all about that, and I'm afraid that some of that is confidential. Have you? DP: 11:40 I'm just asking. JS: 11:40 Well it was, I think I better just, that is, that is confidential, because I know stuff about that which I don't think anyone wants to reveal publicly, because,DP: 11:40 What did you think about him? JS: 11:40 Oh, I liked it very much. DP: 11:40 And how he,JS: 11:40 I might say this, that in the procedure, I will tell you this much, that in the procedure that in which he succeeded President Messick, that as the American Association of University Professors became involved, we did, we did discuss with the Board of Trustees, the chairman of the board, and I was asked to go down to visit with him, and Miss Patty Dowell, who was the first graduate of the University, was asked to go with, it was sort of funny. The first graduate, we went down to see Mr. Waldron, who's a banker in Greenville, and we told him, Mr. Waldron said this procedure is going a little too fast, that the American Association of University Professors would question this that is not according to what we think of as what the association would regard as proper procedures in the selection of president. He didn't know a thing about it, and he was somewhat startled that we would even bring it up. But they did, they did back off a little bit. And what happened was they set up committees, review committees, and they, they set up a Mr. McGinnis as a temporary president until these procedures could be handled, references, reviews, faculty involvement, student involvement, more careful reviews by the trustees of procedures they were using. So it took a little time. Of course, Jenkins had very good recommendations, and he was certainly, certainly the right man for the job, but the procedures did sort of slow down things a little bit before himself. And I don't know whether Dr. Jenkins thought I was trying to, I don't know whether he ever got word of what, what we had done in talking with the trustees or not, but he was a good friend. We used to play golf together a lot. When we'd go out on the golf, we'd go to, sometimes just he and I would play. He'd call me up, go out and play and yeah. We never, we never. Shop talk was absolutely forbidden. We didn't talk a thing about the university or about faculty or anything else. We just talked about how we could make a good shot of what was, what was wrong. But I think he wanted to get away from all this shop talk on campus, and some of the, I might say that some of the guys who wanted to play with him, bored him, he was aggravated just to be around them, I think. So I think he was glad to get away from some of them.DP: 21:23 Did he have a big effect on the campus? He wanted a lot of [unintelligible] [Speaker interrupts]JS: 11:40 Oh, yes indeed. He told us to, he told us to become active in politics. He said, don't even hesitate if you want to get involved in a public position, if you want to get involved in politics, if you want to come out and support a candidate, do it. He was a fighter. He was Marine. Nobody intimidated him, and I admired him. He fought for what believed. And of course, the big turning point here was the candidacy of nineteen, the campaign of 1960 that's where it all started. Terry Sanford was here. He walked around with us to all of the departments, met with the students we, we thought of him as just a close, almost as a member of the family. We saw a lot of him, and we got involved in politics and supported his program and all. It meant a great deal to the university. He was the greatest friend of East Carolina that we ever had, and in terms of support, appropriations and all that East Carolina was coming into its own. Up until that time, it was more or less considered just a little institution down here that didn't have much influence, that all that all changed with Terry Sanford. Furthermore, we invited Jack Kennedy to come here, and he did. And the students, young democrats, we wrote Kennedy, I got some letters from the students. Got letters from it first. They said, We can't come. It just is not in our plan. And a lot of his staff were writing back, and they said, we can't work it in, we can't work in. All of a sudden, they said, we are coming. This is going to be some occasion. He came, flew right into the airport here, and we had over 25,000 people there to hear his speech. Campus was really crawling with an audience. DP: 21:42 That was a very exciting time.JS: 21:42 It was. The Kennedy campaign of 1960 and also the Sanford campaign. That was a great time, politically, a lot of students got involved. DP: 21:42 That's what I was going to ask you. What was the atmosphere on campus, like or what, during this time, there's so many different protests and rights, JS: 21:42 Yeah, I don't think it reached here like it did at other places like Columbia, Cornell and other places, or Berkeley, for example, no it was [unintelligible].DP: 21:42 What about women? On campus and the changes in women over the time that you were here?JS: 21:53 Well, of course, of course, it had been essentially a woman's college up until World War II period. Then it changed, and more and more men were coming in. My experience was, much of my work was with, teaching North Carolina history, was with coeds who were preparing to teach. In fact, some of my classes were all coed and I, they also had nursing classes, and they came to night courses for nursing students. So they they were career oriented, and it became more diversified and less and less emphasis on teachers. In my later days, I didn't see as much of the nursing students as I did at first, but of course, they got involved in sports. That was, that was the interesting thing, and the legislation which provided for equality treatment had a great deal to do with the with the athletic program here and, I don't know how the, I guess there are more coeds on campus now than there are else, well it's the same way at the University of Chapel Hill, now too. DP: 25:07 What about women faculty? What was, their experience?JS: 25:10 Oh, yes, well, we, DP: 25:11 Because your wife was faculty. JS: 25:12 Well, they, that's the point. We, there were women faculty when we first came here. English, math, all fields; that was, that was rather interesting about East Carolina, because there's very little discrimination against women in terms of faculty. Some of the leading professors in the English department were women. We had women in the social studies department and in the history department.DP: 25:40 Were there any problems? Did women, with women faculty, did they have any complaints? Or is, what are your impressions? JS: 25:48 No, I don't think so. I think it's just the other way around. They thought this was a place where there was opportunity. Dr. Frank, who was chairman of the social studies department when we first came here, in terms of salary, a woman professor would make just as much money as a male. There was no discrimination, there, at one time, there's some, some person went up to Raleigh and got the reports of state auditor, the salary of every professor in the University, and gave it around a copy of it, Lala looked at it she said, I'm the highest paid woman in the university, a faculty member. She thought that was cute, but no. Dr. Frank would not have under any circumstances give a woman a lower salary than a man, assuming she had a PhD and was qualified, met his qualifications, I might say that later, didn't have quite as pleasant experience with some of the later with with Dr Murray, as she did with Dr Frank, because she did have to go to Leo Jenkins and some explain their position, and he overruled Murray. That's confidential, so I shouldn't talk about that. DP: 27:25 You don't have to. JS: 27:27 But now Frank was very fair. There were some, there were some situations involving Murray that had to be reviewed, and he was, he was he was overruled. Leila was very much upset about it. She, of course, very happy that Jenkins was very, he understood, of course, exactly what the situation was, because her PhD, in some instances, came long before some of the others earned their degrees, and so he didn't hesitate a moment to set that situation quiet.DP: 28:05 You were there a long time. What kind of changes did you see with the interaction between students and teachers? Like, was it a lot, was it a lot different towards the end of your time at ECU in the beginning how students and teachers interacted?JS: 28:19 No, I think I was really close. I was really close. Since my classes were pretty large to start with, and they got smaller, and a lot of my work was with graduate students toward the end. After Dr. Brewster retired, I took over as the advisor in the graduate program from 1969 until 1985 and I enjoyed it. We had the seminar, we had historiography. I had classes in the New South and in recent intellectual history. So I got to know the students very well, my, DP: 29:03 So it got better, JS: 29:03 Oh, yeah, yeah, DP: 29:03 Over time. JS: 29:07 And it got more, in fact, in a seminar, it was very, very casual with the students, because they talked back and forth. I didn't do all the talking, and so it was it was a very constructive experience for me, just helping students about their research, about their theses and all that. And this is somewhat the same in the intellectual history and in the New South, and also North Carolina history, I think if you want an opinion I, when we first came here, the students were not nearly as well behaved as they were later on.DP: 29:50 Yeah the quality of students got much better. JS: 29:50 Oh, much, much better. And I think that the, the standards for admission. Of course, this meant that the schools where they came from were getting better, better equipment, better teachers, better preparation. I think a lot of teachers said, Oh, my God, did I teach [unintelligible], they just have no preparation whatsoever coming here. This was in the late '50s. They became more sophisticated for one thing, television something, travel, student publications, for example, became much more sophisticated. The thing that really, I think one can speak of with a great deal of pride, is the school of music, the school of art in particular, were becoming more and more active and prominent, and that involved a lot of sophistication. The dramatic art department, the drama department under Ed Loessin, my goodness, these were the best in the state. I mean, the best music school, the best art school, for a long time, a lot of people thought of Ed Loessin was handling the best drama program in the state. And this pride to everybody because East Carolina was getting recognition. I still think the music department is extraordinary, really. I go to a lot of their work, and art is too, I don't understand a lot of the art that's going on, because my recollection of art is a French impressionist, and a lot of this stuff I just cannot understand. But the teaching is excellent, progressive students, I'm sure.DP: 31:54 Schools made dramatic changes. JS: 31:54 Oh, my goodness,DP: 31:54 Since when you first got there and now,JS: 31:59 Yeah, we have more publications now. The English department in particular is stronger. See, they now publish what is called North Carolina Literary Review here for the entire state. And the mere fact that they're publishing that which is so much diversity of poetry, story shorts. It's an impressive publication, and they, one time had a publication for the Victorian Era in English, a journal, which speaks well for the department. I think all departments are stronger, and the fact that the faculty is so better qualified than they were a lot of the teachers when we first came here in some of the subjects, like reflect on departments, but for example, in math and English, they Were essentially just high school teachers who were brought in here. They might have had a master's degree, but they were they were just teaching very basic stuff, not the kind of stuff that people with doctorates [unintelligible].DP: 33:18 Over your time here, do you remember the Bob Thonen versus ECU case? JS: 33:23 No.DP: 33:23 You don't remember that? JS: 33:25 No, what was it about? DP: 33:27 Was a, it was set an important precedence in laws that govern students' papers. There was a big to do about that. Do you remember?JS: 33:36 Tell me a little more maybe it will bring it back to mind.DP: 33:43 I think the editor of the paper, I think Bob Thonen, he wrote some, had signed one of the editorials. He used a bad word or something, and it was a big to do, and the university was very angry. JS: 33:59 That may have been after my time, you know what it was? [Joseph laughs] I don't either. There have been, oh, well, we've had we've had cases that actually got to the courts on something, but I think we've weathered all of that. I might say this, that when Ovid Pierce came here as a writer in residence, he was a novelist highly regarded, that he started to work with students in their literary publication, and they brought out some what, I think the title of their publications was the rebel or something, a student publication. It attracted interest all over the state. People were asking for copies of it. It became a collector's item. These things were very fine work. And the students were going out and interviewing prominent poets and writers, and then publishing interviews just like, and, oh, I mean, it really gave an entirely new impression of the students and also the English department. And the same thing happened with Francis Spate, an artist. He was a celebrated artist. He came here as an artist in residence. We were having art, musicians in residence, artists in residence, and English professors in residence, well known people, and that brought a new atmosphere to the campus. I mean, just to have people like that around meant so much to us. Now we have some endowed professorships or visiting professorships, the Whichard professorship we have right now with a visiting distinguished professor. I think there are some others in, I believe, in the area of foreign languages. I'm trying to think of the endowment that was set up. But there's going to be more and more of that. DP: 36:25 I took a course with Dr. David Cecelski. A couple semesters ago and he was a visiting professor [Speaker Interrupts]JS: 36:25 He was a visiting professor, DP: 36:25 And it was a very wonderful experience.JS: 36:25 He's, I know him. He's in the Historical Society, which I'm a member.DP: 36:25 He's a great teacher.JS: 36:25 I don't know how long he was here. I don't know if he's here now.DP: 36:25 He was here two semesters.JS: 36:25 Yeah for a year. DP: 36:28 It was a really great experience.JS: 36:45 Now you see that that professorship is set up. I think history got it for two years. It goes between history and other, sociology, I think, and maybe economics. It doesn't all have to be in history. It could be another, in the social science field, related fields, but we got it for two years, and there will be another, and they pay very well. It's an honor to have a professor. We brought in people from London, from Canada, here who have been, who have published extensive in their fields. And one man who came here decided he'd stay. I mean, I guess he'd retired here, and I see him quite often. I think he's from Canada, but he decided to stay.DP: 37:39 Who was it?JS: 37:40 I don't know the name. DP: 37:41 [Unintelligible]JS: 37:41 I see him and I recognize him and we talk occasionally but I, see, I can't remember all these names and the same about this student publication, I must say,DP: 38:01 I just though I'd ask you about it.JS: 38:01 It is one I just don't recall.DP: 38:01 Also I was really curious about, there's a rumor, [Speaker Interrupts]JS: 38:02 Oh! Was it a publication in which they had to withdraw from circulation? Was that? Was it a magazine? Or was it? DP: 38:02 No, it was the student newspaper. JS: 38:02 Newspaper. Did they have to pull it out?DP: 38:08 No, it was a big to do about the, the he used a bad word, Bob Thonen, and the president got angry, and there was a bigto do about the students saying that they should, [Speaker Interrupts] JS: 38:24 Freedom of the Press, yeah.DP: 38:24 Right, right. And then ultimately, the Freedom of the Press prevailed for us. Also, have you ever heard the rumor about Brewster building and how it was built? There's a rumor going around that the Brewster building was built in, because of the Kent riots during the 60s, and it was created in that way, the setup, the way it is built, because, JS: 38:48 Compound?DP: 38:48 Yeah, like a compound mentality with the the small windows and the bushes with the spike leaves on the, did you ever hear that rumor?JS: 38:59 No I haven't. No, it may have, it may have been brought up. I just don't recall. I know the windows are small. DP: 39:07 It's the students. It's a rumor among the students. JS: 39:09 I was in it for 15 years, so I know. DP: 39:11 I was wondering if you heard it.JS: 39:12 The point about Brewster is that it makes communication with the faculty very uneven because you're more or less isolated. You go up on the elevator to your office, you go to your classroom, and actually you don't even see people on the bottom floor or the next floor, people in your own department. What happened when we first came here, it does more or less segregate the faculty, really. I mean, you just don't get together and DP: 39:49 Puts credence to that rumor, yeah [Darlene Laughs].JS: 39:50 Yes, well, in a way, it does, and it may also isolate the students somewhat, but for them, it's convenient they can walk into the building, they'd get to the classes, there's no trouble of getting to the classroom. And some of the classrooms are pretty good size, so they have pretty good size. But when we first came here, we were teaching 15 hours. So the Mamie Jenkins, what was called the Mamie Jenkins Alumni Center was right, right behind the Old Austin, little brick building, which was the alumni office. The director of alumni of affairs had offices in that building, and there was also social rooms there with coffee going on all day or less, the woman who, more or less ran it was Webb, always provided coffee. So we would go over there between classes. You just didn't want to stay there all morning without anybody. So if we had an hour break, we'd go over there. We had the best bull sessions over there that ever have been. We discussed politics, we discussed the college. We discussed anything and anything. We had the Danforth lecture program at that time. Danforth Foundation provided for lecturers to come here, [Interviewer Interrupts]DP: 41:05 At the history department?JS: 41:14 Distinguished historians, poets, university presidents, senators, United States senators came down, columnists with the ABC, CBS, all that, right, so we'd end up over there talking with him. It was a learning experience. We had a lot of fun, and there were a lot of characters around who loved to talk. And this was a going thing. Coffee was always there, conversation, and a lot of our ideas were generated there, about liberal arts, for example, about a publication, about student activity. I mean, it was, it was a learning experience, just to be with those folks. And we had people from other parts of the country, coming up, from New Orleans, for example, Tulane, from other universities around the country. So we shared experiences with them. It was a lot of fun. I miss it. I miss it.DP: 42:19 Did you anyone publish anything together? Or did you work on any projects together while you were interned?JS: 42:25 We both put up, put the essays in the publication. DP: 42:30 Did you work on any, JS: 42:32 We worked together. We worked together on the Elias Carr material. DP: 42:35 Oh.JS: 42:36 Elias Carr, and when Leila died, she was working on a biography of Elias Carr. She died in 1998 and she had an enormous amount of material here. We've taken some of it, they've taken some of it down to the manuscript collection.DP: 42:54 Are you working on that project right now?JS: 42:55 Yes I am.DP: 42:56 What is that project? JS: 42:58 Well, we're hoping to do a biography of Governor Carr. He, lived. He was born in 1839, he died in 1900 and there's so much material on it. Leila collected 16 office storage boxes. You know what an office storage box is like? Full. Full.DP: 43:19 I've seen the collection boxes up in the manuscripts at least. JS: 43:22 Well, I don't know whether you've seen her boxes, or not, but that's an enormous amount of material, I'm.DP: 43:30 Are you still working on it or what? JS: 43:31 I am working on it, and you see, DP: 43:32 What exactly?JS: 43:34 Well, it involves a biography. I don't think that any of us will have time to do his papers. She was hoping to edit his papers, and she and I worked together copying his letters. We did it on type writers. We worked in Raleigh together. We worked in Chapel Hill together. We worked in Durham together. Of course, we worked here. When the collection first came in, we both went through it, we said, this is great. This is real, honest to goodness, material. This is from the grassroots, so to speak. And it involved aggregation. It involved plantation. It involved slaves. It involved a large, what was known at that time as Bracebridge Hall, that was the plantation the home. He was born into aristocracy, and he married early, just before the Civil War he married, just, just before the outbreak of Civil War. And there's a lot of family. The first part of it, of course, has to do with all those family ties from not only his aristocratic family, but his wife's aristocratic family, and she died. He was born in February of 1839, his mother died in Christmas Eve in 1840, he was just a baby when his mother died, she died in childbirth Christmas Eve, and the story went that the doctor who was supposed to attend to her was out of the party and couldn't be brought back. So the family tells me that when he did show up and went to what he assumed would be her room, they told him you cannot enter here. Your patient is dead. Now, how you going to put that in the biography? I think that'll get the reader's attention on it. Yeah, but anyhow, there's family and there's plantation, and there's a Civil War, there's Reconstruction, there is, he was president of the Farmers Alliance in North Carolina. DP: 45:59 Some thesis material there for somebody, huh?JS: 46:01 Well, Lala did a book on the Farmers Alliance in North Carolina herself. Of course, she and I worked on a lot together. And then he was governor of North Carolina from 18, he was elected in 1892 served from 1893 to 1897 which was the Fusion, the so called Fusion Era, very controversial. And then after he left office, he returned to the plantation and died in 1900 so there's a great, there's just mountains of material on this. But the way I see it, there are more or less three or four phases of major parts of biography. One has to do with family connections, and there's a lot on there. One has to do on the plantation, which could stretch all the way from 1860 to 1900s, of course.DP: 46:48 There were a lot of letters on slavery in his?JS: 47:01 Well, there's not so much slavery. It's just the matter that he worked with the slaves. Of course, you see, when the war ended, slaves of, slavery was abolished. Then he had to work out the contracts with his, his labor. And he did this in a number of ways. Some were, some were what he called hands, which are all more or less monthly or yearly contracts. Some were tenants worked at that, and some of them were just day laborers, which he paid by the hour or by what's cut or something like that. So all of that material is in the collection, and I'm going to have to try to figure it out. Lala, Lala worked through, [END OF SIDE 2]