Mr. Jones if you would. Just begin by telling us a little about your background.
As a matter of fact I don't have much background. I have no college education. I began with the county January 1, 1921.
You are a native of Craven County?
No. I'm originally from Lutheran County. I came over here from the Coastline Railroad that comes in from Rocky Mount. I followed my boss man over here from the Coastline Railroad Company and was with the Norfork Southern Railroad Company originally. It was my first job here. Later on I got into the furniture business with J. S. Miller. Then we discontinued the furniture business and I went with the Maxwell company, a large wholesale concern here, as the bookkeeper. From there C. S. Miller, with whom I was in furniture business was elected county commissioner, came with the county. I got a call to come to the court house one day (I'd never been to the court house many times in my life). They were upstairs organizing in December 1920. They said they wanted me as county auditor. I told them I had a job out in (?)________ county auditor's place but by virtue of my relationship with the then chairman, who was C. S. Miller, I finally left the Maxwell Company and came up here January 1, 1921.
As auditor?
As county auditor. And I remained county auditor until July 1966, I believe, when I retired. They requested me as clerk. I was also clerk during the war. I remained a clerk, I stayed with the county and served as clerk until December 1979. That's what, about fifty-eight and a half years I think.
So you have been an official with the county between 1921 to 1979 continuously.
That's correct. And they made me the clerk of marriages when I retired as clerk. I have at least the distinction of having retired twice from the same employment (different positions, of course). I was the book auditor and clerk. Went through the depression which an experience that if I was young enough and knew that I had to go through it again-it take a nice sum of money to cause me to think about it.
Well tell me. New Bern in the early 1920's, what was it like?
Well we thought it was alright. Of course we weren't prosperous like we are now you know but every bank closed in New Bern closed. Every bank except what was our old industrial bank.
Before the depression, what was New Bern like during the 20's as far as the size of it, the life style . . .
The size of it-I don't know just how much increase we've had in population. I
don't remember just what the population was the 1920. You know, New Bern was
always been looked upon as a fine place to live and of course, I'm not capable
of determining or thinking in terms of the accomplishments from the standpoint
of education because I understood it was an educational center also. As far as
business is concerned, my recollection is that business was going along as usual
but in those days you know, the banks loaned money and they didn't have the laws
and the requirements that they have now to protect them. We hope they're
protected
Well now, as the depression entered, as it came upon New Bern and the entire country, where you really conscious that there was something wrong before Black Friday, when supposedly everyone. . .
Yes, some. It began to dawn upon us that something was wrong. For instance, back
in those days the counties and the cities borrowed money directly. Now you know
what they have to go through the local government commission. At that time they
borrowed money directly. I remember one thing in particular that a fellow in
George Eyer(?) Company were brokers in New York City. They have most of the
loans that were made. And since the back, citizens Bank was treasurer. The
president of the bank had come before the board of commissions and said we were
running low on money. They decided they had better borrow some money to tie this
over until they got in some taxes and things of that sort you know. They
authorized the loan of some money and they borrowed fifty thousand or a hundred
thousand dollars whatever it was, you know. Usually this fellow Eyre, with
George Eyre Company would be the one which it was handled through. I went down
to the bank that one day, the treasurer, the president to the bank, and the
chairman of the board of commissioners who was W. B. Blaze at that time (the son
of a very wealthy man here in town and one of the finest fellows that I ever
knew but he was a little dangerous because his temper made him an aggressive
type) had a letter from this George Eyer Company. As a matter of fact, before
the county borrowed any money they were supposed to have a certificate from the
county auditor that necessitated it out but none of those things were payed any
attention to back in those days. They never had done it and they never started
it. So
But to take that three hundred thousand dollars out of the bank would really leave them in a bind, wouldn't it?
They wanted to take three hundred thousand dollars out of that bank at that time
but their position was that they had to help the farmers you know. Well anyway,
Bill called me in the room there where he and Henry Anderson was the president
of the bank. They called me in there and asked me to read the letter. I read it
and I said, "I can't sign that certificate." Bill said, "I was afraid of that."
I said, "To begin with, it would not be factual." So I left there and by the
time that I got back to the office, George Eyer had called me. He said, "Ben,
what in the heck is the matter with you?" I said, "There's not anything the
matter with me. What's the matter with you?" He said, "I can't bring you those
notes in going into detail about any condition. I can't renew those notes
without use of your certificate." I said, "Well you took them without it. If you
renew them, you'll renew them without it. I can't sign that certificate." Well
to make a long story short, we make a trip. Bill and Henry called me up Saturday
morning and said, "Be ready at one o' clock." I remember Bill said, "Stick a
shirt in a paper bag and be ready at one o' clock, we'll stop by and
Did you take the train?
Yes. We went by car from here to Washington D.C. We did change for there. We got to New York on Monday morning and went around to Eyer's office. The then again said, "What's the matter with you?" Anyway they sent Bill Dunn who was the county attorney, he was along with us and we went around to the Barman's (?) Company's attorneys to talk to them about it. We talked to them and a fellow Hoyt who was at the head of that firm. He was regarded as an authority on North Carolina law. He sat there and studied law I reckon for a half or hour or three quarters and finally turned around to Bill Young who was (?) ____________ attorney and also the attorney for the bank. He was the treasurer of the bank, the treasurer for the county residents. He turned around to Bill Dunn and said, "Mr. Dunn, the only way I can see that Mr. Jones can sign that paper, that certificate, is for the bank to admit they have the money on hand, but are not in the position to pay it out." Bill Dunn said, "That under North Carolina law would be an act of bankruptcy and we couldn't do that." Hoyt said, "Well I just don't see how he can sign that." We came on back and corresponded back and forth you know and found that we'd rather see the attorney general fellow, Frank Mash, and old old gentleman. I remember the bright color of his eyes. He was seventy-five years old then. Bill Dunn asked me to take the case to the attorney general and I did. He studied it all for a while and turned to me and said. "Jones, you can't do that." I said, "That's what I've been telling them." Well, to make a long story short, the legislature met and examined the notes and they renewed them as a result of the action of the legislation as I recall it. I'm saying all this off hat. This isn't going to be published or anything?
No.
That was what we had-we had two days conference here over those same notes over
that same situation. We called in an extra attorney. Tom Warren who worked with
the attorney who advised Bill Dunn. I finally called in Charles Johnson. You do
remember Charlie Johnson. Charlie Johnson was the State Treasurer who later ran
for governor in 1948. My office was my state contact you see. I kept in touch
with Charlie Johnson all the way through. He was always a good friend of mine.
That was the only time that I was very much into city politics. I'm interested
of course, voting and taking an active part in politics. I was disappointed
because of my interest in Charlie Johnson when he got defeated. That happens.
Anyways, I went to the telephone. As I say they were having a conference with
all five members of the board of commissioners. One of the members had been very
critical of the board, and some of the things that were done. They had me in
there and this gentleman named (?) Medtz, he's been dead a long time now, but he
was a good friend of mine always. By the way, in the fifteen and one half years
I never had a commissioner to vote against me. I expect that is a record. Of
course that's personal, and don't amount to anything one way or the other.
Anyway, Mr. Medtz said to me, "Well man, it looks like it's up to you." We were
really in a bind about these notes. Some of them we knew about. The due date was
in about thirty days in advance from when it was started. And of course it was
getting nearer and nearer the due date. So I went into another office and called
Charlie Johnson and told him what was happening. I said, "I've about decided to
do this with you sanction. I'm going to tell them that if all five of the
members of that board will sign that certificate (?) to me (?), stating that
they had vowed, I was taking the position that was the auditor's duty to find
the fact that there was money available with which those notes could be paid."
Of course I knew it wasn't practical, but it could be used for those purposes.
Now, I said that if all five will sign the certificate to me to the effect that
they found the pact that money is on
Well, wouldn't it have been feasible to have compromised on the notes and maybe have paid part of them. Maybe pay off a hundred and fifty thousand and held the other fifty thousand for the bank?
As far as I recall that didn't come up. Usually you pay the note and re-borrowed
if you needed additional money. I'll say this much for the board of
commissioners that I have worked under, and I worked under a bunch of them
during the length to time, that was a situation that they could have said to me,
"You either sign this note or you won't have a job." I had already told Bill
Bladze. "I can't sign that certificate but I can help you so that it can be
signed." He said. "That's fine. What do you mean?" I said, "Well there's
twenty-five people in Craven County that you could appoint as county auditor
who'll sign that paper without batting an eye. I'll give the excuse that I'm
going into business or something else and resign and let you appoint someone who
will sign." He said, "You know I'd be dead if you do. You will stay right here
with us. We're not going to ask you to sign it if you don't want to sign it." I
said, "I'd like to sign it, but I
Was this around 1928?
In the thirties.
Oh, this was after the depression had broke elsewhere.
Yes. That's right. That was one of the first definite evidences that we knew much about it that I recall.
This was after the stock market crashed and everything in New York . . .
That's correct. Now I don't remember just the year but it was at the very beginning of the depression. I know that much. I don't know whether that's worth anything to you or not!
Oh yes. Well now, how did the depression develop? You said the county wound up going default, was it on this note or was it on other financial?
It was on the bonds and outstanding notes also. This particular notes-there was
no default on that. It was later on that we finally had to default on the
payment of interest and principal on all the bonds of the county paid from the
(?) private fault of default (?). The organized bond holders committee for the
holders of the bonds. When Montgomery of New York was the chairman of the
committee and we kept the money on deposit. That was cured (?) also. We didn't
pay out any money except on orders of this committee after it was organized. In
other words, we couldn't pay one and not the other. They had a bond holders'
committee and finally through that committee we had a refunding of the
outstanding bonds. We had (?) __________ who had accrued interest of around four
and a half million dollars. The average rate
Was the indebtedness the result of overspending by the county or was it just a problem of the times that there wasn't enough tax money coming in.
When the banks closed, anybody who had any money in the bank you see, were wrong side up. In fact, during the depression we finally got the equivalent of three or four levies, yearly tax levies uncollected. If people had any money it was tied up with the banks. One of the banks, the old Maximun Bank as I recall, didn't pay but three and a half percent dividend. This Citizens Bank, which is a treasury of the county, as I recall paid about twelve and a half on it or something like that. The other bank, which was the Eastern Bank and Trust Company (I believe that's the name of it.) paid around thirty percent, as I recall it. So you see, if you had in mind the national bank you didn't get but about three and a half percent. And if you had any money in the Citizens Bank, you only got about twelve and a half percent.
This was based on the indebtedness as opposed to their . . .
They were put in to receivership all of them. The receiver liquidated the assets. After paying the secured accounts and the depositors had this dividend left (three and a half, twelve and a half, thirty percent). Now all that I'm giving you from memory and the (?) are being right.
John Larkins over in Jones County was involved in these bank receivership negotions, did he do any work in Craven on that or was he solely in Jones County, do you recall?
He was solely in Jones. He was not connected with Craven at all as I recall. He wasn't a federal judge.
No. he wasn't a federal judge but he was appointed as a mediator of some type in negotiations.
John's home is in Trenton. We came out of the thing with that settlement. And with our creditors that puts us on a basis that we could operate. We immediately began to get things in order. This had gone might well ever since. Now-I just hope we don't have any more depressions. If we had one now-I don't know the consequences do you?
No. it's frightening to think about.
The claim as I understand it, they have built in protection and another thing,
they do have some but you can get through but you can't stop the steam roller;
it'll run over you. I got a different impression now about a unit of (?)
government than what I had even then. I don't see how you bust the unit of
government? Because every item of textbook property in that unit of government?
Because every item of textbook property in that unit of government is subject to
that particular debt. Now if it is a bond, a bond or not, where you would
perhaps sign a first mortgage on your home for instance, you maybe look for a
school bond. Well that school bond be full faith and credit of the county or
city of which that bond is sold-school bond or any other kind of bond is pledged
for the maintenance for the payment of both the principal and interest on that
bond accordant to the (?) salary. Not only that, but as I understand it, if you
own a Craven County farm and lived in Pennsylvania and were default in payment
of it, you'd go to the federal
Looking back at the thirties. Was there any tax money much coming in?
No, very little. People didn't have anything to pay taxes with.
Was there much property lost by foreclosure by the county?
If the county commissioners had done what the creditors had wanted us to do, the creditors were demanding that we foreclose the tax liens, take over the property and sell it for what we couldn't by it in debt and find out where you stood. We fought them on that all over the country but it that had been done, I would say that approximately fifty percent of the people that didn't lose their farms lost something during the depression. We didn't compromise tax, we held it against them and they paid it eventually.
What about businesses? Did a lot of businesses go bankrupt and close their door?
Yes.
How did Middle Street look here during the middle of the Depression?
About like it does now! Don't quote me on that. Of course they're doing all they can to revive the downtown area here and I think maybe they're making some progress. You live in Greenville don't you? I have a daughter that lives in, the same daughter that did live in Greenville, her husband is a supervisor of the American Bag Company. The American bag Company moved all its supervisors to Durham and she said that downtown Durham is the same way (as New Bern).
We still have a lot of vacant buildings in downtown Greenville too, in spite of all they've done that way.
That just shows you how fast a situation can change. There's Belk's store down there, a tremendous store downtown here. I understand they've been trying to sell it since they've moved out from (?) ______________. I imagine that maybe a million or two dollars to build what they've got there. They got fine parking lot and everything.
We have a Belk's store in downtown Greenville that's vacant too.
Catherine, my daughter says that there's nothing downtown in Durham but some colored people.
Same thing in Downtown Raleigh. It's just torn down buildings and boarded up fronts and everything. Did all of the banks close here in New Bern during the depression or did any of them manage to remain (?) solvent?
Every one of them closed except the Little Industrial Bank.
What did the bank officials think in terms of W. B. Blades? You don't hear much about the Blades family anymore. At one time it was one of the leading families in boat and ship building and a little of everything.
They were in the timber-lumber business you know.
They had a big saw mill and everything . . .
Two of the brothers that were active here in New Bern, of course that was before
my time, my recollection of what I heard was that they bought a lot of this cut
over land down here then finally sold it to John (?) Elwood Lumber Company, who
ran this big mill out here. Of course, they've been out of business for a long
time now. They were our first millionaires. William and Jim Blades. William
Blades was the father of the William Blades that was the
I think so.
Then somebody bought it and turned it into a hotel and then finally. I don't know all the circumstances, but First Citizens Bank finally got it. We really have got a fine bank building.
Did these bankers lose their personal fortunes?
Yes, largely. Bill, this young bill, was the main stay in what is known as (?) Mord Biff subdivision down here in Morehead (?) City. I think he lost a lot of money down there and Bill was in the fisheries business too. He had a fisheries company. He was one of the finest fellows you ever saw. Ms. Woodley still has the home place here. I understood, of course I wasn't that close to him-he was just as nice to me as he could be, that he had a good many friends who took advantage of him too. He was one of the most attractive men I ever seen in the human flesh. In fact he was mentioned a few times as doing (?) _____________.
Oh really?
Locally, now I don't know whether anywhere else or not. Now the other Blades, his son Vernon, he went bankrupt but he came back. Bill, his family had right much. But Vernon came back and he died some years ago now-not so may years ago. His son in law, called Beasley, told me his estate was valued at around seven hundred thousand dollars when he died, but Pop told me that at time, he had a whole lot of those little (?) cut over land which had blown sky high in prices, he says which was then worth three million dollars. Values in the (?) farm were determined by what you can do with it.
That's right. And the opportunities of the time. Tell me, speaking of old houses. I recall a very interesting and fascinating old house down here where the Sun Journal building is now located. It's across from the municipal building down here. That old square-turreted building.
That building, as I understand it, is before my time. It was built by Doctor Hughes. Doctor Hughes was a very prominent local man. He owned quite a bit of real estate and that building, a mansion I suppose, had a porch all around the place. In later years, not the last year, J. W. Stewart owned it. He was regarded as a wealthy man too. Later on, I believe the last one that I knew of that owned it, of course it had gone down right much. I started to say Dr. (?) Gazes but I don't know whether he was the last one or not. Anyway Dr. Stewart's daughter lived there. He had two old maid daughters that lived there for an number of years.
I noticed that it was a very foreboding looking place and you could see a light on in there from time to time.
I tried to maintain correspondence with the creditors during the fight of some three years trying to get a settlement with them. I tried to get that correspondence together and I've got an old binder somewhere. I thought that might be of interest to someone. They've thrown away a lot of the old records up in the attic.
No. You shouldn't do that!
I don't I've thrown that away. I have it somewhere.
Legally they are not supposed to throw away any record because those are official
state records. I'm talking about the county records in particular and to a
certain extent the municipal records. What they're supposed to do is they're
supposed to be controlled by the state archives. One of the most illustrious
citizens of Craven County in years gone by, in your early years here,
I knew him, of course I was too small a man to have any direct contact with him. Of course I knew him. Did you ever see him? He was a man about your size if would say. He was a powerful man. He came originally from Jones County and his home is down on East Front Street. It's still standing. I don't know who owns it now. He was defeated following the Al Smith fight. He was really the political of the seat for a long time as I understand it. You take this Tom Warren I mentioned, he was one of his main men. He was a local attorney, a very important (?) man himself. He was always credited for having a very fine organization. Not only a well-organized organization made up of outstanding people too. You know it's said that he made a three hour speech in Winston-Salem against Al Smith which of course had to defeat him but he carried North Carolina for Hoover. As a matter of fact I think that Herbert Hoover, I never even met the man but I think he's one of the greatest men that this country's produced. He was one Republican that I wouldn't have minded voting for but I didn't.
Are there any other anecdotes, personal or otherwise that come to mind? Any aspects of your career, of Craven County, or . . .
I don't recall any. I'm good at recalling those things anyway. They may appeal to me and be funny at the time but I don't retain them very well. I'm sorry that Judge Nunn isn't living. If Judge Nunn were living you would really enjoy talking to him. He was a walking encyclopedia of history and just a fine fellow in addition. He was one of Senator Simmons' protégées. I doubt that he ever employed a secretary. He usually did his own typewriting.
Really! How did he ever find the time?
His own personal filing system! How about Charles Albernathy?
Well, I remember him. Did you know his son?
I know his son's widow very well.
His son's widow ate lunch out here at the Little Palace Motel.
How is she going?
She seems to be doing all right. She was just a little way from me. I didn't get
a chance to speak to her. She's a fine lady. Of course, Charlie was a very
active fellow as long as he lived. I remember seeing a fellow from Goldsboro,
who used to sell typewriters and typewriter supplies down here (I used to buy a
little stuff from his from time to time), he ran for Congress, the boy did. This
fellow lived in Goldsboro. I can't think of his name right now but anyway I was
in Willow's Run and ran into him during the campaign. Charlie was running for
Congress too and he looked at me and said, "Who are you going to vote for
Congress?" "Well I always voted for my partner (?), I reckon I'll keep it up. I
don't know of any reason not to vote for him." And he says, "Well I'm going to
vote for what they call him, fat head some name like that. I'm going to vote for
him." Well he had opposition from Goldsboro. Kind of a little bit tell you why.
I went to Washington to the __________________ I believe he said a cousin of his
owned a farm over in Virginia I believe and his son, he needed his son at home.
He had him on the farm and they sent him overseas. He was in the service and
they sent him overseas. And he said, I went up there to see the Senators and the
(?) ____________________ to see if I couldn't help my cousin and I believe he
said he had a heart condition and he needed his son who was a young man very
much
He's the one who defeated Simmons of course.
He was Senator. He says. I tried to see him but I couldn't even get into his office. The Senator was engaged and wouldn't be able to see me. He said I went to see another one and I couldn't see him, and he said I can go see old Clabber head or whatever they called him. I went in there and told the secretary that I wanted to see Mr. Albernathy; and she says come on in, he'll see you right now. He said I went on in there and told him what I wanted and he said he grabbed the telephone and called Admiral so and so and told him that he wanted this young man, whatever his name was, that was in Germany somewhere and he wanted him moved back as close as he could get him. He said of course he couldn't hear what was being said on the other side but evidently the man said it couldn't be done. I believe he told him that's what the other man told him and Albernathy told him, "That's all right, you'll be up for your (?) ______________ in a few days and I'll remember it." He said that brought on more talk and he said that after he got through talking. Albernathy hung up the receiver and says, "The man will be home in a few days." And he says he had a wire back in Goldsboro before he got back there that the man was on his way. Now he says, "Do you think I'm not going to vote for that man? Certainly I'm going to vote for him."
The Congressman has a lot of clout. It was Graham Barden that defeated Albernathy in 1936 or whenever it was that Albernathy ran.
I reckon that's correct. I don't remember just exactly how the thing happened but Barden (?) _______________ as long as he got in. He was a part of the Simmons machine too.
I think you're right.
It was in the thirties, thirty-two, thirty-four, thirty-six, somewhere along there. I was just trying to think of names of major political figures that you might . . . That was a good story on Albernathy.
Mr. Albernathy was a very (?) _______________ man. He didn't belong to the Simmons machine and of course he used to say that if you didn't belong to the Simmons machine, you had trouble getting started. But if you got too strong, they'd adopt you, take you over. I don't know what happens but it's a great pity that we don't have more of the Simmons machine types, if what they said about them is true. It was said that they were very reliable. Always true (?).
He controlled politics in North Carolina for about thirty-six or thirty-eight years.
A long time. His clothes always looked like they were too big for him. I remember his coat sleeves always looked like they were too long. I remember when Mr. Hoover was President, you know the Congress had got bold up there and they had a lot of difficulty, somebody said, "Well they need Senator Simmons there now. If Senator Simmons was there he'd work around in the cloak rooms there with the Republicans and the Democrats and directly we'd have a Congress running smoothly." And it seems that there are some people that can do those things. He had friends among the Republicans too. The first the Republicans weren't so numerous as they are now. You can't hardly tell who's who now can you?
It's difficult at times.
Yes it is. And that's the way it ought to be. I never had any inclination to run for public office. (?) The offices I've held are the only public offices I've held.
You were responsible to the County Commissioners, all the County Commissioners appoint an auditor.
You see the County Commissioners, when I came to the county, they were elected for two year terms and later on it was extended for four years. It's been a four year term now for a long while. That gentleman that just went out of here just when you came in, he's the president of the chairman of the board in (?) Windsor. (?) , Havelock. He's a very fine man. It's said that in his later years, he wasn't in perfect health, in his office with the Norfolk Southern Railroad there was a certain time of the day that he would spend in his easy chair that he was not to be disturbed. But that's a great family of people. The sister of one of them, Judge Guion. . . .
Well I was getting ready to say that William B. Rodman II. In his papers there is a tremendous amount of correspondence with the Guion family because one of the Guions was William Rodman Guion I believe. I think it was William B. Rodman II's sister who married Isaac Guion or one of the Guions back there before 1900.
This Rodman, the Judge was their father you know was a Superior Court judge.
He was a Supreme Court Judge. William B. Rodman I was in the State Supreme Court.
I'm talking about Guion. Let's see here. You know these lawyers here, when I
retired as clerk I gave up office I had occupied over here. Jim and Fred
Carmichael, one night about nine o' clock my wife died in 1977. We, this our
home, we moved this old house you know and next door to the court house, they
moved it over there on the old school green. My daughters moved me over to the
Palace Motel and that's where I've been staying at night. Did to after I retired
as clerk. I got a call from Jim yesterday, he says, "Can you come over here a
minute?" I says, "Yes, sir." I came over here and he and Fred were over here
cleaning out his little office. They said, "We are going to fix your office over
here." I said, 'My goodness I'm not even going to worry
Oh really, I was thinking that the Guion home was back over here on one of the other streets.
No, that's where the home is right over here.
Well now some of the Guions still live over here in one of the old homes.
Oh yes on the other street over here. John (?) Mrs. Lewis, that wall over there was covered in ivy and she would sit out here on this porch you know, and it was during the W.P.A. days you don't even remember about that don't reckon. The government provided money.
I know about it although I don't remember it.
Most of the folks was cussing (?) W.P.A.s and I kept them working around here all
the time. We had to because they were getting a little money and such things, as
I can have them doing for the county. In fact we remodeled the jail. We make a
modern jail of it with W.P.A. labor. We built Count Hall with W.P.A. labor. This
particular time I went to Raleigh for something I needed and I got back and I
got this invitation here somewhere and I tried to save it but I don't believe I
have. Anyway, I got back and found on my desk a note from Judge Guion. He was
not Supreme Court Judge but he was a (?) _____________ court Judge for a while
and he said, "Ben, you're playing hell now." And he went on to say what had
happened was the W.P.A. folks, I had them working doing things around the jail
over there and the courthouse, and they were cleaning up this wall (?) pouring
lye. And Mrs. Lewis was in tears. She had called Judge Guion crying and said
they had ruined the wall you know and all. He said clean them out.
Rodman had been a trial lawyer but John (?) was better off as office as far as thoroughness is concerned.
He was a fine fellow. He lived right on this street. He married Mr. J. H. Jones's daughter. No relation of mine. Mr. Jones was in the horse and mule business and he also was a cotton broker. I heard it said one time that he had as much cotton on futures as perhaps as anybody in the country. Now Rodman, I wasn't familiar with his wife. She's living right on.
Is that right?
John's wife died recently. He had one child that lived around on (?) New Street next to them. But Rodman's wife is still living as far as I know.
Well they must be getting pretty