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NORTH CAROLINA GEOLOGICAL AND ECONOMIC SURVEY

JOSEPH HYDE PRATT, State Geologist

ECONOMIC PAPER No. 29

Report of the Fisheries Convention Held
at New Bern, North Carolina,
December 13, 1911

Compiled by
JOSEPH HYDE PRATT, State Geologist

Together with

A Compendium of the Stenographic Notes of the Meetings Held on the
Two Trips Taken by the Legislative Fish Committee Appointed
by the General Assembly of 1909 and the Legislation

Recommended by this Committee

 

RALEIGH

EOWARDS & BROUGHTON PRINTING COMPANY
STATE PRINTERS ANDO BINDERS
1912

 
 

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GEOLOGICAL BOARD

Govrrnor W. W. Kitcurn, ex officio Chairman....... ASSP os ere Raleigh.
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PAM MAOHAR S655 5 v's dy win hig gic eee be Cade EUS MBE CU OTe bas ate Wilmington.
Pie. Ws CALD WELD. dusty aciicars us she aie'e Deas e caae a aad eae ania ois Lumberton.

JosrpH Hype Prart, Siate RIOUIOBING. 5 o 0.5.4 Seka ca eens Pee cma Chapel Hill.

 

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LETTER OF TRANSMITTAL

 

Cuaret Hirz, N. C., July 15, 1919.
To His Excellency, Hon. W. W. Kircutn,

Governor of North Carolina.

Sir :—The Fish Convention which was held at New Bern, December
13, 1911, was a great success, and its proceedings contained so much
information of interest to the fishing industry that I have prepared a
report on the proceedings of this Convention which I herewith submit
for publication as Economic Paper No. 29 of the publications of the
North Carolina Geological and Economic Survey. I have included in
the manuscript of this Economic Paper a short paper on the fishes of
the State, together with the information that was collected by the
Legislative Committee appointed by the General Assembly of 1909,
which was obtained at a series of meetings held in the tide-water coun-
ties during the summer of 1909. The information contained in this
report should be of considerable assistance in obtaining the required
fish legislation from the General Assembly of 1913.

Yours respectfully, Josepa Hype Prart,

State Geologist.

 

 
 

 

 

CONTENTS
Page
Report of Fisheries Convention held at New Bern, N. C., December 13, 1911.. 5
TR OU GU ONE iis a eee es He ins PE OW ae OO oan es A/c Ey CRS 5
ne: sehr Ta tatir 6s Cola ns a ac eined eek die fara si sracelent 6
Importance of Fish and Oyster Industry............0eeeeeeeeeee t
Repott of the Conventidn 30 2a... eee eee RP en eee Sas 9
Moriing Seaman i fon 5a ide ele dy COV Om aia ents es 9
Addvest-of W eleome «is sac co pone Bee a nale seh we ed ale ee 9
RRORMOMIO 65 2h 5s os oa EGG DRA AS Ee! te de ROR OPER eee 10
Obie0t OF Convention a castes es tee ph ase es ene eas ane 12
Address by W. McDonald Lee...........eccceeeeenesereeee 13
Address by Dr. H. F. Moore.........0eccececsceseccsesoees 20
. TEATRO OPM F520) Sn Gis win ay 6 ea a Wace belek Gg PHN OC 414 0% 23
Report of Committee on Resolutions. ........222.eeeeee eres 30
Charter Members of North Carolina Fisheries Association.... 33
PHL Dem ON: &: cai taba s «USB Cade § waite BS whee k die 9 ein Bates 34
Registered Delegates............ Reid Gk Maite «eae Se ke pee 42
What Shall We Do with our Fisheries?.. 0605.0... dees ccwe event easeeens 46
What Other States are Doing with Their Fisheries.............- kis fu 47

Information Obtained by Legislative Fish Committee Appointed by the Gen-
eral Assembly of 1909 to Investigate the Fisheries of North Caro-

11 CSR RIE SS Chace was Rae MRI PR ere tM ala OAR Ts aS a Vey fp ar 51
BURTON hig ok Seeger sto Meek tea ew VMs Rye TE Tee RS C4 og 51
1909 Trip of Investigation............ cece cess cece cece cern see nees 52

Itinerary ‘of Fish Committee... ; 0.6. cece cece cco es te eseteees 52
Reporh.ot; Mootanws. sso Cveidic che bye Sek’ pM een gence sf 54
Teen MOONE ©. Ue ska Ahk SORA dod ce ham an Satins 54

Wee eatin o's: ia acs nd he a wees + och 4 84 seg 40 es 72

Powell 6 Pont Meetings... os Ua ness enc sc + o's hin Rh RR OS 101
Hstieras Mootang css 2 ss sic sekbic ae es vince Meany aunt 120
Swanquarter Meeting... oo. sacs bies'ses seed edelen an sbeebs gas 130
Washington Meeting 0.05. sisi lee cise e ene tense cee vated 144

POOL O86 DAOOCUNE So clokivels prs sie t Uvido wk te ROU AIS aens Fe CA's 167

GW CPD AMOCUNE Wiis Cakes tc bulec cote hs cee wanes Coates. 188
Jacksonville Meeting 6:5 cece odieiee ess ne vet a clad wit oie Odieinie eis 208
Wilmington Meeting. 053.066 cisco os sin ean stages ee ds tee mee 238

SRL TTIE A OBUEMEE i Wass bo OSA eS Doi Snip! o's v9.6’) RRA oe 271
Meeting Held on Steamer Compton...........-sseeeceeeres 286

TOO Tris oF Pi vewtltariGti gs: 6.5 Gee Oc bias NW ede bas Hage ysine CHLOE RE 289
Report of Legislative Fish Committees 0.000 Sed ee Se a bed o vec en eeian 291

 

REPORT OF THE FISHERIES CONVENTION HELD
AT NEW BERN, NORTH CAROLINA,
DECEMBER, 13, 1911

Comp1tep sy JOSEPH HYDE PRATT.

INTRODUCTION.

There was held at New Bern, North Carolina, on Wednesday, Decem-
ber 13, 1911, a convention of very great interest to the eastern part of
the State as it related to the fish and oyster industries. This conven-
tion was called by the Shellfish Commission, the Fish Commission, and
the North Carolina Geological and Economic Survey. An attempt was
made to have at the Convention delegates from all counties and sections
of counties that are directly interested in the commercial fisheries.
With this end in view, the following letter was sent to the mayors of
cities, chairmen of county commissioners, and presidents of boards of
trade and chambers of commerce in all the counties which contained
commercial fisheries:

NORTH CAROLINA GEOLOGICAL AND ECONOMIC SURVEY.

Cuapet Hitt, N. C., November 15, 1911.

Dear Sir:—The North Carolina Geological and Economic Survey, in co-
operation with the North Carolina Fish Commission and the North Carolina
Oyster Commission, have called a convention to be held at New Bern, Decem-
ber 13 and 14, to consider ways and means for protecting and perpetuating
our fishing industries. We want to have a large number of delegates from all
the counties and towns along the coast which have commercial fisheries, so as
to have a full and free discussion from all regarding the present condition of
these industries and to devise some means of bettering them. It is the object
of this convention to consider the matter from the standpoint of the State as a
whole, and not from that of any individual county.

The enclosed press circular will give you more specific information in re-
gard to the convention. I am writing to ask that you will appoint ten dele-
gates to represent your —————. In selecting these delegates, please appoint
men who are public spirited and interested in the fishing industries, and who
you think will attend. I trust that you yourself will also attend.

With best wishes, I am,

Yours very truly, JosrepH Hypr PRATT,
State Geologist.

Delegates were in attendance from the following counties: Beaufort,
Brunswick, Camden, Carteret, Chowan, Craven, Dare, Edgecombe,
Granville, Hertford, Hyde, Jones, New Hanover, Onslow, Orange, Pam-
lico, Pasquotank, Perquimans, and Washington.
 

 

 

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

It is believed that these delegates thoroughly represented the various
fish Interests in their counties and that their deliberations and recom-
mendations will carry weight when the question comes up in the Gen-
eral Assembly of 1913 in regard to fisheries legislation.

One gratifying result of this convention was the organization of an
association known as the North Carolina Fisheries Association, whose
object 1s to promote the conservation and perpetuation of the commer-
cial fisheries of the State for the benefit of the people of North Caro-
lina. Considerable interest was aroused in the convention and many of
the newspapers of the State took the time and gave the space to call
attention to the importance of the convention and the need of some
concerted action by the people of the State in connection with the pro-
tection of the fisheries and enforcement of laws with this end in view.
The following excerpts from two of our daily papers illustrates the
interest that the press has taken in the fishing industry:

e THE FISHING INDUSTRY.

The Wilmington Star, emphasizing the importance of the proposed fish
convention, calls attention to some of the conditions which the present sys-
tem, or lack of system, in dealing with this great resource of the State have
brought about:

“The fish, oyster, and game problem of North Carolina demands serious
attention and vigorous remedies for their restoration. We hang our heads in
shame when Wilmington restauranteurs advertise Norfolk oysters, while the
once famous New River oyster has practically disappeared from the market.
Now we have only excuses for the large and luscious New River oysters, the
premier of all the shellfish from Penobscot Bay to Bull’s Bay. The New River
oyster has so constantly disappeared and the demand has become so wide-
spread that the whoppers are shipped away for the connoisseurs of Wash-
ington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and New York. Those markets have literally
robbed us of the New River oyster, and what we get are mixed with Myrtle
Grove Sound, and Stump Sound products.

“However, our Myrtle Grove and Stump Sound oysters would be the equal
of New Rivers if the State were to do the right thing by the industry. Fine
oysters and fish, from Currituck to Brunswick, could be produced in such
abundance as not only to supply North Carolina, but other States. Intelligent
legislation must be substituted for selfish interests. When Wilmington buys
oysters from Norfolk and soft shell crabs from Baltimore, something is radi-
cally wrong. The wrong should be righted by knocking out peanut politics
with good hard common sense.”

“Good hard common sense” is all that is needed to solve the question and
solve it rightly so that instead of robbing our rivers and bays and sounds of
their fish and oysters, we should be conserving them, taking plenty and leav-
ing plenty to increase the supply. But like many other matters that have
to be solved by our law-making bodies, it is hard to get an application of
common sense. Statesmen would apply that remedy, but politicians either
predominate or are able in one way and another to defeat the passage of any
comprehensive laws on the subject. Some of the people, perhaps the majority

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA v4

of them, engaged in fishing and oystering think it is their right to pursue
their business without any interference whatever from the law. These peo-
ple have a vote and so hold a club over their representatives. But they
should begin to see by this time that they stand to lose more than anybody
else by their policy. The remarks of the Star are so timely that we quote
again:

“The broadest view to be taken of it is the importance of conserving and
fostering a State source of wealth and food, a necessity which should be
recognized as of equal importance as the conservation of the waterpower and
forest wealth of the State. For the same reason that every North Carolinian
is concerned in the Appalachian Forest Reserve, which aims to protect wide
areas from overflow and conserve the vast waterpower interests of the State,
all the people of the State should be concerned in fostering and preserving
the State’s fish and oyster industry. It is not specially the industry of east-
ern North Carolina, for when we get away from the individuals actually en-
gaged in the fishing and oystering business for the purpose of making a liv-

ing and acquiring a competency, the people of eastern North Carolina are no
more individually concerned than are the inhabitants of middle and western

North Carolina. It is a State resource, and not a local industry, that must be
conserved.

“Tf the people of this State would display half as much interest and zeal
in practical and conservative undertakings as they do in politics, there would
be constructive progress and material development on a huge scale in North
Carolina. If every man were as anxious about fish, oysters and game as he
is about the initiative, the referendum and the recall, we would be doing
something to the real advantage and development of the State. It is not the
theoretical, but the practical questions which should make us bestir ourselves.
Of course it is all right to keep abreast of all fundamental public questions
of the day, but while we are doing it we should not be guilty of such woeful
neglect as to let our fish and oyster interests go to smash, permit our great
forests to be destroyed, and fail to protect our immense waterpower and land

resources.”—Raleigh Daily Times.

IMPORTANCE OF FISH AND OYSTER CONSERVATION.

There is an aroused State newspaper action in the matter of fish and oyster
conservation in North Carolina. If this same action and force of sentiment
will merge, and when the fish convention meets in New Bern next week, fill
the hearts and minds of the delegates who meet here, real conservation of
these two great natural products of the waters of this State will become
effective. And it is time that the selfishness that has prevailed in certain
localities, which has prevented legislative action, shall be overthrown, and
the entire State reap the benefits from the fish and oysters, which, with intelli-
gent conservation methods, means millions of revenue to this commonwealth.

A few years ago there was almost a total exhaustion of the game birds and
wild animals that previously had made this eastern Carolina famous as a
great natural hunting ground, for quail, turkeys, robins, doves, and bear, deer,
*possums, squirrels, and other game. Strict game laws, and more important,
their positive enforcement, has worked a wonderful change. This year hunt-
ers in this section say game has not been so plentiful in years. Conservation
has wrought the change, and instead of promiscuous and harmful slaughter of
game, there is “good shooting,” and game secured that makes hunting a real

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

8 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

sport, one bearing good results, in the

after year, instead of a wanton aanecane: maa ca rere ged

Boosey niet legally, thoroughly applied to North Carolina’s fish and oys-

sepa mo at mp splendid water products will prove a continual and in-

ee ree of wealth to the people. The New Bern convention, with
egates inspired with the real conservation spirit, can work the change.

There must be a giving way of personal or locality selfishness, and laws en-

acted that shall be enforced, that will mean a fish and oyster industry to
enrich the State for all time—New Bern Daily Journal.

REPORT OF THE CONVENTION

Mornine Sxsston, WEDNESDAY, December 13, 1919.

The sessions of the convention were held in the courthouse, and the
morning session was called to order at 10:30 o’clock by Joseph Hyde
Pratt, State Geologist, who called upon the Reverend J. N. H. Sum-
merill of the Presbyterian Church of New Bern to open the convention

with prayer.
At the close of the prayer the chairman introduced Honorable Romu-

lus A. Nunn, who made the address of welcome in behalf of the Mayor
of the City of New Bern. Mr. Nunn spoke in part as follows:

ADDRESS OF WELCOME.

Gentlemen of the Fisheries Convention:—I wish to extend to you a most
hearty welcome in behalf of the city government as well as the city at large.
We are indeed glad to welcome you in our midst this morning, and I trust
that your stay with us will be a pleasant one. You are here today to discuss
the building up of one of our greatest industries, which apparently has now
dwindled to an alarming extent. It has been shown that the people in other
States have been able, by suitable laws, to build up their industries from the
condition which now exists in North Carolina to a wonderful stage of devel-
opment. I am told that in the State of Louisiana the oyster industry had
gone to almost nothing, and that with the passage of suitable laws the indus-
try has been built up to such an extent that during the past season the oyster
catch in that State amounted to a million dollars. The same conditions have
existed in Maryland. They undertook to regulate the industry by suitable
laws, and last season the oyster catch of Maryland was worth two million
dollars. In Virginia a number of years ago the situation was much as it is
in North Carolina today, and after the enforcement of suitable laws, last
season in the State of Virginia the oyster catch was worth something like
two and one-half millions, while in North Carolina the catch was something
like twenty-four thousand dollars. Now if we can build up an industry, the
catch of which at present amounts to twenty-four thousand dollars, to the
two-and-one-half-million-dollar mark, it seems to me that we will have done
a great and lasting benefit to North Carolina, and we will benefit not only
every oysterman, but the whole people of the State. Gentlemen, I am glad
you are here and that we can help you in these discussions. It may be that
the fish and oyster business is a local matter, but in other States they have
considered that it belonged to the whole people, and as such I think it should
be considered in North Carolina. Now, if we can do anything here to build
up this industry, we will have done a great deal for North Carolina.

The response to the address of welcome was made by Hon. T. J.
Markham, of Elizabeth City, who represented Pasquotank County in
the General Assembly of 1911, and who is very much interested in the

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

10 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

perpetuation of the fish and oyster industry of North Carolina. He
spoke as follows:

RESPONSE.

Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the Convention:—I am undertaking to fill
the place of a man that I feel absolutely inadequate to fill. When Dr. Pratt
asked me, I refused, but you see that he persisted. I want to assure the
gentleman from New Bern that in behalf of this convention we appreciate
this invitation to be present with you on this occasion, and that we thoroughly
appreciate this truly Craven County welcome; and I assure you, sir, that it
satisfies our hearts to be with you. This is not a local matter. Gentlemen
of this convention, we are all North Carolinians. We all live here, and we
want to see her first and foremost in everything. We are proud of the splendid
record which she has made in the past ten years in other matters, and we
deplore the decrease that has come about in the natural industries of our
State. We have made wonderful advancement in agriculture and in the de-
velopment of the natural resources of the State, but I am sorry to say that
because of local conditions and strifes we have allowed this natural industry
of North Carolina to dwindle down. This convention is called for the pur-
pose of having the representatives of the eastern section of North Carolina,
who are particularly interested in this industry, get together and agree upon
one particular thing that will insure concerted action on the part of all. As
a matter of fact, we all know that this thing has been worrying the Legis-
lature year after year. No progress has been made up to the present time.
We have laws upon our statute books which can not be enforced and are not
enforced simply because of the lack of concerted action of the people of the
eastern part of the State. I feel safe in saying that the next bill which is
presented to the Legislature of North Carolina will be passed. They are not
going to hear the petty differences of these local men of the east. Gentle-
men, I hope we will go about it with a spirit of unity which will insure the
accomplishment of that for which we have striven for a number of years.

OBJECT OF CONVENTION.

The object of the convention was stated by Mr. Pratt, who spoke
briefly as follows:

Gentlemen :—As you all know, this convention has been called by the North
Carolina Fish Commission, which, however, has jurisdiction over only part
of the State; by the North Carolina Oyster Commission, which also has
jurisdiction only over a part of the State; and by the North Carolina Geo-
logical and Economic Survey, which has jurisdiction over no part of the
State. These three Commissions or departments of the State have felt that
some definite action should be taken in regard to the great depletion of the
fishing industries of the State. When I speak of fishing industries, I include
the fin fish, oyster, clam, and, in fact, everything which comes out of the deep
waters which is of commercial importance. It seems to me that at this point
of our convention it is right and proper that we should organize as a con-

vention by the election of a permanent Chairman. Nominations are now in
order,

Mr, George N. Ives, of New Bern:—I nominate Judge A. W. Gra-

ham, of Oxford.

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 11

Mr. W. S. Privott, of Edenton:—Knowing Judge Graham as I do
and the interest he has always shown in the fishing industries of the
State, and knowing him to be entirely fair and unbiased, I take great

pleasure in seconding the nomination.
Judge Graham was unanimously elected chairman.
In taking the chair Judge Graham spoke as follows:

Gentlemen of Carolina:—I sincerely appreciate this mark of confidence and
esteem which you have shown me this morning in calling me to preside over
what I deem one of the most important meetings that has been held in North
Carolina in several years. It is known that the industries represented by
you gentlemen are second to none in our State. If you will take the long
coast line which we have, running from Virginia, near Cape Henry, all along
the coast down to Southport, near the South Carolina line, it will be found
that we have more territory exposed to the Atlantic Ocean than any other
one State in the Union. That territory has bordering on the Atlantic Ocean
and separating it from the ocean a narrow strip of land which runs from
Currituck Sound down to Beaufort, and between that narrow strip of land
and the mainland is a vast area of water known as the sounds and bays along
the coast, which area of water is second to that contained in but one other
State in the Union. It may be that our neighbor on the north, Virginia, has
a little more water area, owing to the fact of its proximity to the Chesapeake
Bay; but the other States have used the advantages which Providence has
placed in their hands in a way which will be conducive to successful results,
and we have not. You have met here today for the purpose of trying to
formulate some plan by which North Carolina may no longer be a laggard in
the race for successful competition as regards her commercial fisheries. I
was not intending to make a speech, gentlemen, but simply to give you my
idea as to the importance of this convention, and I do hope that every gentle-
man will feel called upon to express his views in regard to this matter and to
let the convention know the conditions which prevail in his community.
What we want are laws more liberal, broader in their scope, and easier of
enforcement than those we have had heretofore. We need to havé a Fisheries
Commission with powers sufficient to make such rules or regulations as are
needed for the various conditions which exist in different sections of the
State, and with sufficient power to see ‘that these rules and regulations are
rigidly enforced, so as not only to stop the great depletion of our commercial
fisheries, but to begin to bring them back to what they should be. Therefore,
I hope that we can do something here today which will appeal to the people
of North Carolina as the product of men who are earnest in their work and
know what they want, and that we can send such a committee before the
next Legislature as will convince them of this. I thank you sincerely for

the honor conferred upon me.

Mr. ©. S. Vann, of Edenton, moved that the members of the press
who are present be asked to act as assistant secretaries to Miss H. M.
Berry, stenographer and secretary to the State Geological and Economic
Survey. Motion carried.

The chairman then called upon Mr. Pratt to state the object of the
Convention.

°
 

 

 

12 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

OBJECT OF THE CONVENTION.

JosrpH Hyper Prart, State Geologist :

I can state in a few words the real object of the convention: It is for us
to decide upon some definite means to try to build up and perpetuate the fish-
ing industries of North Carolina for the benefit of the people of the State. I
think you will all agree with me, and I think you will all admit, that the
fishing industry of North Carolina is not in value anywhere near what it
ought to be. If we will look over the statistics in regard to the catch of fish
and oysters during the past eight or ten or twelve years, you will admit that
there has been a constant decrease in value of the fisheries products of the
State of North Carolina. In connection with one particular phase of that
industry—the oyster industry—I would say that it has gone down to that
extreme low figure of less than twenty-five thousand dollars a year. There is
bound to be some good cause and reason for such a condition as it exists in
North Carolina today, and there is also a way and means by which that con-
dition can be changed, so that we can begin to climb up again until the
value of this industry is equal to four or five or six or even seven million
dollars per year. Now, who gets the benefit of such an advance in this in-
dustry? It is eastern North Carolina mainly, and it is the men who are
making a livelihood out of the waters of eastern North Carolina. The people
of western and central North Carolina are interested, and they are becoming
more interested, in the fishing industry of North Carolina, not because of
what they could make out of it, but because the fish are products of the sea
and constitute one of the important food products that they want and want
badly and are not getting today. Fish have never been so scarce in western
and central North Carolina as they are today; and it is up to those who are
particularly interested in this industry, namely, the people from eastern
North Carolina, to say whether this great industry shall be built up and per-
petuated or destroyed, this industry upon which and by which a great many
of the people of eastern North Carolina make their living. It is of interest
to the rest of us because it means the building up of a certain section of
North Carolina, and hy building up that section we benefit every other sec-
tion. I had expected Judge Dillard of Cherokee County to be present at this
convention. He is just over an an attack of pneumonia and got as far as
Raleigh; but, owing to his condition, I presume it is impossible for him to
come on to the convention. Why should he come to a fisheries convention—
a man living in the extreme western part of the State and with no direct
interest in the fisheries industry of the coast? Because he, as an individual
citizen of the State of North Carolina, realizes that one of the important
industries of the State is being destroyed, and while he may not personally
know anything about the methods of fishing or know anything about the
conditions that exist in eastern North Carolina, he is man enough and stu-
dent enough to know there is some remedy for present conditions, and to
know that if we can all get together and consider the question from the
standpoint of the State at large, there is no reason why a solution of the
problem can not be reached. Some of us may have to give up certain things,
but if we get together, work together, and think together, we can devise a
remedy which is practical and which can be put to work, and which will
relieve the situation and begin slowly but surely to build up this important
industry. It has been done and is being done in other States, and we can
do it just as well in the State of North Carolina.

PU tas gM ge ARG STWR WALT ER Sa POM Le PT eT a RL ARI Ce Sa Ae ee we

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 13

I have prepared especially for this convention a report called The Fishing
Industry of North Carolina, which has been distributed among the delegates
to this convention. This gives a number of interesting statistics in regard to
the catch of fish and oysters in this and other States, and shows a very
marked difference in the condition of these industries in other States and in
North Carolina today. I have brought in Louisiana because a good many
of the people of the State are against the cultivation of the oyster, saying
that we are too far south to successfully cultivate the oyster. This has been
done most successfully in Louisiana, as the figures in this report will show.

As you will see in a little table given at the end of this report, the differ-
ence between the catch of the oyster industry in Maryland, Virginia, and
Louisiana and the catch of North Carolina is almost ovefwhelming. Now,
there is some reason why our oyster industry has gone down. Virginia’s
industry went down and is back up; Connecticut’s industry went down and
has regained her former standing; and the same thing has happened in
Rhode Island and Louisiana. If these States can accomplish this, then why
can not North Carolina? As soon as we do that, we can build up the oyster
industry in North Carolina and bring it up to what it should be.

Just a word regarding the other side of the question, and that is the fin
fish. We would like to devise some means of protecting the fin fish. I have
heard this argument: That we get more fish now than we did ten years ago.
If you will turn to table on page 7 of the pamphlet you will find the reason
why—it is due to the menhaden fishing, which has increased 204 per cent in
quantity. It does not by any means follow that there has been an increase in
value. I will admit the tonnagé is way up, but the value of your industry is
down, and is going lower. We can not solve that problem as individuals. If
such were possible, we would have solved it years ago. It remains, then, for
us to work together as citizens of a great State to look at it from the stand-
point of a State industry and to solve it as such.

Right here I would like to read a clipping recently cut from a Greensboro
(N. C.) newspaper in regard to oyster shuckers going from Baltimore to
New Orleans:

“There passed through Greensboro yesterday several carloads of men and
women enroute from Baltimore to Louisiana to work in the oyster canneries
and shucking houses in that State.” ;

Where are our canneries? We have nearly destroyed the oyster industry,
and driven the canneries out of.the State. They will return, however, if we
will only give them a-chance.

I want to say a word of appreciation of Mr. W. McDonald Lee, Fish Commis-
sioner of Virginia, for the courtesy and interest he has shown to his neighbor
State in giving up his work to come to North Carolina to try to assist us in
working out our problem. He has assisted Virginia to work out her problem
most successfully. I think we will all admit that Virginia has built up her
industry, and it is largely due to the man who has come to assist us in work-
ing out ours. I know Mr. Lee can be of great help and assistance to us.
He comes to talk about what Virginia has done and what North Carolina can
do. It gives me great pleasure to introduce to you Mr. W. McDonald Lee,
Commissioner of Fisheries of the State of Virginia.

ADDRESS BY HON. W. MC DONALD LEE.

I want to say to you and Dr. Pratt that I thank you very cordially for the
greeting you haye extended to me. I had the pleasure of attending the

 

 
 

 

14 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Elizabeth City Oyster fonvention a year ago, and was charmed with the re-
ception that I met with in North Carolina. It is due to the interest then
awakened in the work in North Carolina that I am come to New Bern today.
I want to commend the custom you have of opening your conventions with a
word of prayer to the Giver of all good gifts. I heartily approve of such a
custom and believe it should be universally observed. I am come, as has also
another distinguished gentleman in this audience (1 refer to Dr. H. F Moore
of the United States Bureau of Fisheries) in the hope of giving you some
little aid in the solution of the problem which lies before you; and what I
say of myself I know I can say of him. Whatever I may say today I feel
that you will accept as coming from a disinterested source, and not from any
selfish standpoint’ whatever; and should I, in showing you what Virginia
has done, tread upon any toes, or in any way offend the members of the
Legislature present, I trust they will pardon me, as no offense is intended.
An Irishman upon one occasion, on his death bed, called in his faithful priest,
for the purpose of giving him extreme unction. “Pat, you say that you
renounce the Devil?” but no word came from Pat. Again the priest said,
“Pat, say after me: I renounce the Devil.” Still Pat remained silent. The
third time the priest said, “Say after me: I renounce the Devil.” Pat with
his last breath said, “Father, I am in such condition now that I do not care
to antagonize anybody.” It may be that the legislators, now that they are
thinking of going to another session, are in the same condition.

For twenty years through my newspaper and as a private citizen I fought
for the rights of the fishermen and oystermen, but in fighting for them I was
fighting to put their branch of the industry upon a higher plane than it was
in the State of Virginia at that time. I never missed a session of the Vir-
ginia Legislature for twenty years. At that time there were, I suppose, two.
hundred and fifty people going out on the little creek which ran near my
home for oysters for a living, and they were not getting a living from it.
Today from that little creek alone is marketed two hundred thousand bushels
of oysters, so that you see my interests are with my people—their interests
and my interests are the same. You have here in this State conditions now
that are similar to what they were at that time in Virginia, and you doubtless
have papers that are fighting for your interests and for the enactment. of
laws for regulation, not for persecution; and I would say for the oyster and
fish industry, as‘I would say of all corporations, let us regulate them, not
persecute them. In passing I want to compliment your State upon its ad-
mirable tax laws for corporations. I find that you are drawing to your State,
while we are driving away from our State, a great many industries. In that
North Carolina leads, and I congratulate you upon it. In the fish and oyster
industry I am proud to say that Virginia takes first place. In 1908 the Fed-
eral census put us second to Massachusetts in the fin fish but first in oysters,
For the fiscal year ending September 30, 1911, Virginia outstrips all other
States of the Union for both fin fish and oysters. To expand upon this I
would cite you the figures of the estimate of the catch in Virginia waters for
the twelve months ending September 30, 1911. The tot&l value of fin fish
caught was about three million dollars. The total value of crabs and clams
was one million. The total value of oysters three and one-half millions. The
menhaden catch amounted to something like five hundred million pounds,
equivalent to one and one-fourth million dollars; fish from pound nets some-
thing like one and one-half million dollars; from other nets (three thousand,
all told) one-fourth of a million dollars, making a grand total of three mil-

ait dees

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 15

lion dollars for the fin fish. The value of the crabs caught amounted to some-
thing like five hundred thousand and of clams five hundred thousand, making
a total of one million, and a grand total of seven and one-half millions of
dollars for Virginia’s raw output of shell and fir fish for the year 1911.

I am here to tell you something about how we arrived at these results,
You will pardon any personal reference or references to my own State and
any apparent egotism, as whatever I say is more for your information and
education, if you may so call it, than to boost myself or my State. After
twenty years of fighting before the Legislature, in which the tidewater coun-
ties of Virginia had but one-fifth representation, we finally succeeded in
getting the Fisheries Commission as it now exists established. Under the
old Board of Fisheries the State was annually going into a deficit. It re-
quired more money to operate the commission than the taxes received from
the fisheries amounted to. The up-country members, having been besieged
for twenty years by the members from the tidewater, each wanting to secure
some petty local legislation to suit his own county, became disgusted and
more disgusted because the tidewater people were not a. unit. In fact, did
you ever see any twenty members from tidewater who could pull together?
There was such an aversion in the Virginia Legislature to all suggestions
to revise these laws and put it under a separate head that one of the up-
country members, a very sound, square, but hard man, said to them: ‘ Every
last one of you are thieves, and if the water left tracks you would all
be in the penitentiary.” Knowing the man as they did, there was no umbrage
taken. He said, “I will let your bill pass provided it is self-supporting.”
That was a pretty strong argument against our people and made it very hard
for those trying to promote the industry, for all these years we had been
losing money. But we took it as the best that could be got, and the Board of
Fisheries of Virginia was established in 1898. The first year it put a net
profit in the State of Virginia’s coffers, and has steadily increased in value
until today my Commission has turned into the State of Virginia two dollars
for every one invested. We got the privilege of using $45,000 a year for
maintaining our Commission. We took in over $80,000 from the direct rev-
enue, and we have not overtaxed the industry, nor have we increased the
taxation. What does it mean? Smith may oppose his tax, and so does Jones;
but only as he would oppose any other tax. Today every man pays his tax as
willingly as he does his per capita or land tax. The first two years after my
Commission took gharge, six years ago, the rocks in the State of Virginia
were clean. There was a dearth of oysters in Virginia. There was no winter
and summer in the oyster industry. They took all sizes of oysters from the
little thin paper-shell on, as there was no cull law, which was enforced.
Every man’s hand was against every other man, and every man was his own
boss. Dredgers and tongers would pull in their tongs or dredges until the
steamer of the Commission passed, and then go at it again. It was a hard
thing to instill into a people different principles from what they have been
used to for generations, until education and power to enforce regulations
could bring about a different attitude. You can not reéstablish or reproduce
oysters on a barren rock within a season; and you can not eradicate customs
in a people that have been bred in them for generations. Every man thought
that God had given him the right to take these oysters and fish, and for two
years I had the battle of my life. Night after night I had to lay out ina
gasoline yawl to catch some depredators. The result of it is that we have
put the bad ones out of business and have sold their boats.

 

 

ERE RET NT aa’ Se lie

 
 

 

 

 

16 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Question from Judge Graham :—Do you ever have trouble with Mary-
land in the enforcement of your laws?

A. I have had considerable trouble with Maryland along the Potomac
River, as their dredges would come down on the Virginia side in the night to
do their work and then slip back over the line before anything could be done.

In order to remedy our difficulties—and the same thing obtains with you—
you not only want the authority to enforce laws, but your Commission will
need such authority as will enable it to make rules to suit individual sec-
tions. I think that in a case of your kind, as in Virginia, that if you decide
to establish this department, that it ought to be given powers almost. ad
libitum. My Legislature has given me such laws as I asked for, except in
one or two points, and these laws have been complimented from Maine to
Louisiana. They came after twenty years of thought and work and after
being in office four years. For four. years I served under obsolete laws. To-
day I have a magnificent code of laws. Yesterday I saw thirty-four boats
with oysters in them, not one of which was less than two and one-half inches,
and the rocks just covered. What does it mean? It means that James River
alone could supply the markets of Virginia, and the James River represents
only one-tenth of the oyster area of our State. You talk about twenty-four
thousand dollars worth of sales from your State. I tell you it is disgraceful.
The great State of North Carolina, with equally as much water bottom as
Virginia or Maryland, making an output like that! At the beginning of our
season this year I saw more oysters taken out of one river in two days than
your entire State produced in the whole year. I have seen forty thousand
dollars worth a day taken out of the James River. Go after your Legisla-
ture, gentlemen! But first try to be a unit, Almost anything we ask of our
Legislature now, it lets us have. And the people of tidewater Virginia are
beginning to realize that it is best to work together.

You have the best waters on the Atlantic coast for fin fish. We often say in
Virginia that if the fishing industry in North Carolina were regulated, if they
had the cull law, the season law, and were patrolled and enforced like they
are in Virginia, that Virginia would almost have to go out of business.

(The question was asked as to the size of the smallest fish allowed to be
taken in Virginia. Mr. Lee replied that he could not give that information
off-hand, but that it is contained in his reports. He stated that they have these
regulations and that they live up to them.)

If I catch up with a man who does not live up to them I make it sufficiently
hard for him so that he will not do it again, and the result has been that in
the last two years Virginia has had more fish than ever in her history before.

If you will preserve yours and will refrain from catching everything, all
the little fish, and everything that inate the waters, it will not be long
before you will be able to build up your industry, and in order to do this it is
necessary to have a commission with sufficient powers to make regulations
suitable for the individual cases and with unlimited powers of enforcement.
I would say here that local statutes are a curse on any statute book. (Ap-
plause.) We have no local statutes, except for the seed oysters in the upper
James and Potomac. Tell your Legislature to abolish your local laws. Get
together! It may be a little hardship on you, and you, and you, but if you
will take the matter in your hands and let the Legislature know you mean
business and that you are willing to make some sacrifices in order to gain a

larger return, your efforts will not be unfruitful of results.

Ta gine A i rai a aia i sch i: eT

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 17

You have probably as much oyster bottom as we have. Maryland has more
than we have. But I have always been of the opinion that Virginia was next
to Maryland. Yet I presume that you have bottoms that are equal to any.
Why, Warren County alone has only 68 votes and puts out more than North
Carolina. You have not begun; it is time to start. We are fifteen years
ahead of Maryland. Maryland has never paid the expenses of her Commis-
sion. Maryland has more water bottoms than Virginia, and Maryland can
not do any better because of politics. Gentlemen, I am a Virginian first, and
politics and party comes second. When I went into office I told Governor
Swanson that I had fifty-two inspectors and twenty-odd captains that were
put in under the adverse administration. I said to him, “Do you want me to
put those men out?” He says, “Mack, all things being equal, I want you to
give it to a Swanson man, if he is suited to the place, but not for one instant
would I have you put out a good Montague inspector and put in an indifferent
Swanson man.” Out of the fifty-two we kept forty-eight. We have in our
Commission no political lines. If we are able to make two oysters grow
where but one grew before, we feel that we have accomplished a good work.
Why, gentlemen, Norfolk has thriven on the trade she gets from North Caro-
lina. I am down here to instruct—I may have to urge—you not to be so prof-
ligate of your industries, but to conserve your natural industries and to make
two oysters grow where one grew before, and to beg you to throw back the
little fellow. I know I am doing this to the detriment of my own State.
But I feel a hearty interest in the welfare of your State, and would urge you
to profit by our example. The idea of having oysters shipped from Virginia
waters to supply the North Carolina trade! Why, we are not only producing
more oysters today than we can market, but we are going to double that in
four years time. The argument has been raised that if so many oysters are
produced the markets will be flooded and the prices reduced. I had rather
sell one hundred barrels of oysters at ten cents a bushel than fifty barrels at
fifteen cents.

Accomac County, in the State of Virginia, furnishes more soft crabs than
any other locality in the United States. Its clam industry is today worth
one-fourth million dollars. Accomac County, by the Federal census, is de-
scribed as being the wealthiest County in the United States. It has no cities.
It says that , a town in the midst of the fishing country, is the wealth-
iest place per capita of any village, town or city in the United States. The
fish have produced for this town the greatest per capita wealth of any city in
the United States. Virginia today has the greatest fish as well as the greatest
oyster output of any State in the United States. I am here to tell you that if
you can not do altogether as much as we have done, you may come as second

best.

 

At the close of Mr. Lee’s address the following questions. were asked

by various delegates: ;
Mr. Geo. N. Ives:—I want to answer for myself the question, Are we

not ashamed of ourselves? I have been ashamed for twenty years, but
ud as this morning. I would like

I have never been so rubbed in the m jorni
Commission is self-supporting ;

to ask one question. You state that your
that it pays a revenue to the State, and that your fishermen and oyster-

men are not overtaxed. How do you do it?
2
 

 

 

 

18 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. The tongers are taxed $2.50 a season from the 15th of September
to the first of April. The dredger is taxed so much to the ton and he
is restricted to certain waters. We rent our bottoms at the rate of $1
per acre per annum. Purse fish nets and pounds are taxed $3.50; fyke
and gill nets $1; and the others run along in that way. We turned over
to the State treasury this year $81,000 from the industry, although we
have been pretty hard hit by the Pure Food Laws.

Q. How are your menhaden fishermen taxed?

A. Our menhaden men pay $100 on the steamer. We have fifty
steamers in the State of Virginia. The menhaden fishing industry is
all right, if properly regulated. If not regulated, it will ruin you. We
have very stringent laws in our State regulating the menhaden fishing,
and it is absolutely taboo for them to take any food fish at all on their
boats. I can assure you that during the past three seasons every boat
has had to buy its food fish. In order to enforce this I have a fine as
high as $1,000 on any menhaden boat on which food fish is found.

Q. How are the tongers taxed for the State’s expense ?

A. $2.50.

Q. How are the dredges taxed?

A. So much per ton.

Q. In what areas are they restricted ?

A. We had a survey made of our waters a, number of years ago,
known as the Baylor survey. It surveyed out the natural bottoms and
these were so designated on charts in each county. The natural rocks
are left in perpetuity to the tongers as public grounds. All outside of
that is rented; that is, all outside of the Baylor survey. You may
improve on our system of surveying, as Maryland is doing, and survey
the planting grounds which can be leased for oyster planting instead of
the natural rocks. Having these oyster grounds surveyed, you can lay
it off into regular lots as Rhode Island and Maryland are doing. In
the James River I found that there were numbers of planters who had
a little ground bordering on the natural rocks. From this point of vant-
age they would creep out and depredate on the public rocks.

Q. How do you regulate the culling of the fish ?

A. By the size of the mesh.

Q. How do you regulate their going up the mouths of streams and
creeks?

A. Do not allow any river or creek or bay to be restricted more than
one-half its width. We do not allow a pound or any stake-nets to be
set more than one-fourth distance from each shore.

Q. What are the terms of the oyster ground leases?

A. Twenty years. ,

Q. What variety of fin fish do you catch mostly?

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 19

A. Shad and herring; on the outside, menhaden.

Q. You also have mullet ?

A. Very few. :

(The mullet fish is one of the greatest enterprises we have in North
Carolina.)

Q. What size mesh do you use?

A. Two inch stretches on the bar.

Q. Is there any difference in the mesh of your seines and pound
nets? Is there any difference in the size of the mesh of your pound and
mesh of hauls and seines in fishing for the same fish?

A. I cannot give you this without the law.

Mr. George N. Ives then gave a talk on the amount of tax paid in
North Carolina, stating that it amounts to a tax of 4 cents on the gallon
for retailers.

Mr. Nunn:—You spoke about the wonderful inerease that has been
made since you had a State-wide law. Tell me, do the fishermen and
oystermen like the present situation better than the old situation?
Would they be willing to go back to local laws?

A. We have from 15,000 to 20,000 people under the law. Of course,
a certain proportion of them would like to have no law whatever, but it is
considered by practically all that there are more oysters in Virginia
and better conditions exist there than we have ever had. We certainly
have more oysters than we have had for a quarter of a century. Where
there is a lack of complaint you can depend upon it they are pretty
well satisfied.

Q. What part of Virginia does your Commission cover?

A. Tidewater Virginia.

Q. Does your law apply in any way to non-resident fishing?

A. Non-residents of the State can not fish or oyster there. When a
man gets his license to fish in any county he can fish anywhere.

Q. I understand that the State of Virginia has a law which provides
for a man to lease an area. Explain the lease.

A. The leases are granted for 20 years at $1 per acre per year, and
the lessee pays the surveyor for making the first survey.

Q. Do you have any law in the State of Virginia which provides for

the protection of the lessee?

A. Yes, we allow for 20 years. He goes out and stakes what he
wants, calls the inspector, who posts a notice for sixty days on the
court-house door; and then stakes out the amount leased. One man can
take up as much as 250 acres.

Q. You can not get an entry or grant in fee simple?
A. No.

 
 

 

 

 

 

20 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Do you have any law which provides for men to go out and take
the bottom which has been provided providentially ¢

A. Provision is made for the protection of the natural oyster rocks
as we call them. No man can lease a depleted natural rock.

Judge Graham:—Gentlemen, the Legislature of 1909 appointed a
fish committee to make the investigations which were carried out the
summer of 1909 and the spring of 1910. This committee consisted of
three members from the House and two members from the Senate, and
an amendment added to this number the Speaker of the House and the
President of the Senate. We incorporated the provision in that bill
that the Bureau of Fisheries in Washington should be requested to
assign for the assistance of this committee one of their experts so as to
assist as much as possible this committee in their investigations and to
discuss not only with the committee but with the citizens of the portions
of the State visited all phases of the fish and oyster industry. It was
my good fortune to be a member of that committee and I esteem it a
great good fortune to North Carolina, and especially for that committee,
that there was assigned to us a gentleman who seemed to me to have a
more thorough knowledge of the fish and oyster industry than any other
gentleman I have ever had the pleasure of meeting. I refer to Dr. H. F.
Moore, of the United States Bureau of Fisheries at Washington, who
will tell you of some of the work he has been connected with.

ADDRESS BY DR. H. F. MOORE.

I want to express my thanks for my own part for the very great privilege
that I have felt I had in being able to serve with this committee. I spent all
told with those gentlemen, in many cases under rather uncomfortable physical
conditions, practically an entire month, and I will say I have never spent a
more pleasant month or a more profitable month than that proved to be. I
was especially struck with the sincerity of that committee, who seemed to be
thoroughly in earnest in their efforts to arrive at the truth with regard to the
fishing conditions. I have been in North Carolina a number of times in the
last four or five years, having made five or six trips, and always on the same
errand—that is, to help to frame some legislation which would tend to check
the great depletion which has been on the increase among the commercial
fisheries during all of this time. I will admit that you have not always done
the things that I would like to have you do; but I will credit you with an
honest desire to do the right thing. I will simply say in passing that I am
familiar with conditions in practically all the States along the Atlantic coast,
and also of some of the Gulf States. In the remarks heretofore made there
has been mention made by various persons in discussions of another State,
and it seems to me that the history there parallels more or less the conditions
through which you are passing at the present time, and it may be of interest
to you to show a few years of the progress made there. I refer to the State
of Louisiana. I might take up conditions in Massachusetts or Maryland or
New Jersey or Virginia; but it seems to me that Louisiana will serve as a
better illustration for North Carolina. My first acquaintance with Louisiana
was in 1898, when a cry went up from some of those in authority to the

Epa

le

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 21

Government in Washington, asking that some one be sent down to look into
their fisheries, principally the oyster. We made a rough survey of one part
of the State, and then I made an examination of the entire fish producing part
of the coast. I found that they were in very largely the same condition that
you are now, or were a year or two ago before the present fisheries law was
passed. The entire subject was turned over to local control. The Legisla-
ture passed some laws in a perfunctory way and turned over everything to
the parishes. In Louisiana the subdivisions are called parishes instead of
counties. In each parish was a sheriff who was charged with the duty of
enforcing the law, which, in the case of the fisheries, usually meant non-
enforcement of the law. The-officer who was in charge of the duty of enforc-
ing the fishery laws was sometimes fifty or sixty miles from the fisheries.
The consequence was they were allowed to go by default. The case exempli-
fies what I wish to say, particularly with respect to the oyster fishery, because
that has been the important fish of North Carolina. There was a law on the
statute books which imposed culling. This was never enforced. No respect
whatever was paid to it. The tongers would go out to the natural beds and
tong up everything—all kinds and sizes—and carry them into the places,
oyster houses, steam houses, or shucking houses, the same houses taking
everything as it came. The shucking houses simply culled out the oysters
on the spot and the little spat was thrown on the shell heap, which eventually
was carried off to fill up waste places or make roads. The consequence was
that these oyster beds were either depleted or rapidly becoming depleted.
There was no provision for the planting of oysters, and the natural rocks
becoming depleted meant that the industry was down at a low ebb. If aman
desired to secure a certain area or bottom on which to deposit oysters and
allow them to fasten and grow, he simply went out to some remote spot on
the marshes and protected them with his good right arm and shot gun. The
State afforded him no protection whatever. The Bureau of Fisheries made
out a report regarding the conditions, with such recommendations as it was
believed would correct these conditions, and the report was printed and turned
over to the State authorities. Of course, under the conditions limiting the
activities of the Federal Government, we could do no more than this. I lost
sight of the matter for four years, and then found that a vigorous fight was
going on in the State in behalf of an improved oyster law. The local people
believed that they had a God-given right to all the products of the waters
adjacent to their territory. If they had any laws at all they wanted to say
what these laws were to be. After considerable work and fighting, Louisiana
succeeded in passing her oyster laws. Provision was made to cull out all
oysters under three inches in diameter and for them to be returned to the
beds from which they were taken. Previous to this there was no culling
whatever, and the oysters were taken as obtained from the beds direct to
market. What was more important still, provisions were made for the leas-
ing of oyster bottoms and for the protection of the lessees. It became possible
for any person or corporation of men to lease not to exceed one thousand
acres in any or all portions of the State. Under the provisions of this act
three or four leases were taken up, but at the present time there is no one
of these leases equal in extent to the number of acres which were allowed
to be taken up. The one thousand acres was found to be more than any man
cared to handle. Those who held the leases have surrendered part of their
bottoms. The average size of the holdings now is about thirty-five or thirty-
seven acres. The great majority of the holdings are twenty acres or less.

LR Tee

 
 

 

 

 

}

 

22 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

a9 a — us mean? It means that the man with small capital who
ps omagl - cin re s livelihood heretofore by fishing on the reefs had found
axes sien vantage to lease and plant oysters in these small patches.
peat ngs at the present time are by persons of this character, so
semen shang pn of a monopoly down there; and I believe there is no
semen ee re a monopoly even if the maximum area was increased
ptt eticmig es the thousand acres. In the sixteen years preceding the en-
“ nt of this law there was leased all told about fifteen or sixteen acres.
pit ome re the State derived from this was practically nothing. I
mat ve that to take the State as a whole the income from the planted
S was more than one hundred dollars. Now there are planted something
like twenty-three thousand acres, and the State is deriving 2 revenue from

these areas of about twenty-three thousand dollars. In addition to this, there
was a revenue from the natural rocks.

Now, what does this mean? It means that the State, which was getting
practically nothing before the passage of the act, at the end of four years
was reaping a gross income of about forty thousand dollars, a considerable
= of which was used to protect the natural beds and to protect the
lessees’ territory. Now that is the State’s viewpoint. Let us see what it
did for the industry. At the end of four years and after the imposition of
the various taxes which it stipulated, the total production of the State was
between one hundred and fifty: thousand dollars and one hundred and sixty
thousand dollars; that is to say, the industry had increased fifty per cent, and
to the oystermen the increase was more than fifty-two per cent. That law
was passed in 1902 or 1903. Hight years have passed. At the present time
the oyster industry of Louisiana produces over three million bushels a year,
sixty-three times what it was nine years ago when this law went into effect.
You have just had read a clipping from the newspaper which told of the
shuckers going from Baltimore, which used to be the center of the oyster
industry on the Atlantic coast, in car load lots, to Louisiana to work in the
canneries and shucking houses there. Does this look as if this tax had
ruined the industry? They have increased the quantity and quality of their
oysters to a great extent. Their reefs are in better condition, and they have
established a more permanent industry through the planting. In other words
fifty per cent of the oysters are growing on bottoms which produced tothing
and the bottoms which were formerly productive are now producing fifty
per cent more than when this oyster law was passed.

At the close of Dr. Moore’s address there was an open discussion.

Q. How is the barren territory planted ?

A. In two ways. In most cases by seed oysters which are taken from
the public reefs and which thé law provides may be taken under certain
conditions and under special permits from the Oyster Commission. The
Oyster Commission has absolutely in its own hands the regulation of
the seed industry of the State, so far as it pertains to the public
grounds.

Q. Do you know of any State in the Union in which they have made
a success of their fish and oyster industries except where it has been
controlled by a Commission? Is any State making a success of the
business where it is left entirely to local laws?

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 23

A. There is not a State where local legislation and control has been
made a success. There are some States which have not been successful
under centralized control, but it is due to some difficulty in the law or in
the administration of it. There are places in the United States where
there is a division of control, and this always results in disaster, so far
as the industry is concerned. For instance, take the waters of Lake
Erie. That body of water, which has very extensive fisheries, is bounded
by four States of the United States and the Dominion of Canada, which
makes five distinct jurisdictions, all considering their local needs. The
consequence is the regulation of the fisheries there is a failure.

Chairman:—Mr. Pratt will make an announcement and the discus-
sion of Dr. Moore’s paper will be continued after dinner.

Mr. Pratt then read’ a letter of regret from Governor Kitchin:

STATE OF NORTH CAROLINA,

EXECUTIVE DEPARTMENT.
RaetcH, December 12, 1911.
To the Fisheries Convention Assembled at New Bern, N. C.
GEeNTLEMEN:—I regret exceedingly that official duties prevent my being
with you during your deliberations regarding the fishing industry of North
Carolina, which means so much to the eastern part of our State. I am

heartily in sympathy with the work that is being carried on towards the
building up and perpetuating this industry for the benefit of the people of

North Carolina.
I trust that through your deliberations you will be able to work out a solu-

tion of this perplexing problem.
Wishing you the best of success, Iam, W. W. KitcHtn,
Governor.

Announcement was made that the official photographer would take a
picture of the delegates at the close of the morning session; also that
the City of New Bern would entertain the delegates with a smoker at

the Elks Club in the evening.

. AFTERNOON SESSION.

Wepnespay, DecemBer 13, 1912.

Meeting called to order at 2:30 o’clock, J udge Graham in the chair.
Judge Graham:—Dr. Moore this morning confined his remarks
almost entirely to the view of the oysterman. I have asked him to
prolong his remarks and give his ideas as to what we could do in order

to decrease the depletion of the fin fish.

DR. MOORE.

What I said this morning about the oyster fisheries I said with the idea of
applying it to the fisheries as a whole. The principles underlying the state-
ments were applicable to all the fisheries; that is, for a centralized or general

 
 

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24 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

control as opposed to a local one. You have exactly the same conditions in
the fisheries for the so-called fin fishes as you have for oysters. The im-
portance of centralization of control and general jurisdiction of some central
body is more important for the reason that the oyster stays “put,” so to speak,
and to that extent, of course, he is a local inhabitant. With the fin fishes the
case is a different one. They move about. Some are inherently migratory.
They have regular natural movements from the sea up into the inland waters,
or fresh water, and these movements are generally dependent upon the neces-
sity for seeking these waters for purposes of reproduction and spawning.
Now you can readily see that it will be quite impossible for local legislation
to have any material effect on the regulation of such a fish as the shad.
The shad, as you know, during the winter months live somewhere off the
coast within reach. In the spring at the approach of the spawning season
as the waters warm up they run into the inlets, up the sounds and thence
into the fresh waters of the rivers, where they spawn. A local greed or
desire for immediate local profit will make it quite possible to destroy that
fish or reduce it to a very low ebb. If, for instance, a man in the upper
waters were to take all the fish that came up and approached the spawning
grounds, very soon there would be no fish to go out to sea and come back
next year. Similiarly, the man at the inlet could ruin or practically ruin the
shad fisheries. Now you will see that the people up’ the stream have the
same rights as those below, but in the case of a local control they have’ no
show whatever; they are without a voice in the method of protecting the
fisheries. Now, I think you will all admit that it is improper to put the sal-
vation of that fish in the hands of some one who has purely local interests.
The men on the spawning grounds have an equally valid objection to catch-
ing them all before they go up, and the men at the inlets have the right to
object to all the shad being caught up and none allowed to go back to sea.
Now, you will say that it is always more or less theoretical, that there are
always some fish getting up. Of course some are getting up because it would
be absolutely impossible to destroy or catch all the fish that come up; but
they can be caught up to such an extent that they are no longer a commercial
fish. Such a point had been reached by the shad fisheries in North Caro-
lina some years ago, and this condition of affairs was particularly illustrated
when the hatchery was established at Edenton. This hatchery was estab-
lished primarily for the propagation of shad, I believe, about 1899, and went
into operation about 1900, which was the year in which it carried on opera-
tions on a practical scale. During that year something like ten million eggs
were hatched, which was a very low number. The trouble was that the spawn
could not be secured from the sound for hatching. The following year some-
thing like fifty million were taken, and the next year seventy-five million,
and that was the maximum. At that time the watercourses leading up to
the spawning ground at Edenton were very much crowded with fishing
apparatus of all kinds. Gear of all kinds was set across the sounds and
inlets without let or hindrance. There began a decline, until in 1905 the take
of eggs fell from seventy-five million to a little over six million. There was
no let up, no cessation in the efforts to take eggs, but the eggs were not
found; the fish were all taken before they could get to the spawning grounds.
About that time the people began to appreciate the difficulties, and I think it
was in 1905 that they passed the Vann bill, opening up a certain area of the

sounds where no fishing was permitted, so as to allow a free channel for the

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 25

fish up the center of the sounds. In the following year the take of eggs at
Edenton rose from six million to twenty-five million. The next year it
dropped off a little to twenty-three million; but the next year there was a
very great jump up to fifty million, and the next year there was about sixty-
nine million eggs. The last year we got back to practically the original
seventy-five million. That showed that the fish had been caught up by the
nets to such an extent that they were not allowed to get up into the waters to
spawn. This shows very plainly the effects of local or central control over
these waters. After the Fish Commission was established and there was
some kind of control exercised over these waters there began to be an in-
crease in the number of shad eggs taken out of them, showing that more fish
were allowed to come up to spawn. So that it can be readily seen that the
only way to make control effective is to have a commission with sufficient
power to control all the sections of the State. The case cited is just one.
We have innumerable others. You can not injure the fisheries in one region
without injuring them in another. It is inevitable that the extermination of
the fish in one region is going to have a very grave effect somewhere else.
That is the very serious difficulty of local administration in matters of that
kind.

Now, there is one thing to which I wish to call your attention in regard to
your fisheries. It is quite true that the fisheries of North Carolina are more
valuable today than they were in 1880, when the first statistics were collected.
Their value is three or four times what it was then; but when you come to
analyze the statistics you find this important fact, that your best fisheries of
1880 are not today producing anything like the quantity of fish that they did
at that time. Take, for instance, the shad; there was something like three
or four million pounds caught at that time per year. “The latest reports of
1908 show that approximately the same quantity was caught in that year;
but the amount of apparatus had probably quadrupled. There are today four
times as much apparatus. If you will compare the middle records of, say,
1898 or 1899, there was something like eight or nine million pounds of shad
taken per year, and today there are only three or four million, while the
amount of apparatus used is increasing enormously. In other words, you
are keeping up your fisheries by catching all kinds of fish, even those which
had no value before. In the 80’s and 90’s those fish were thrown away.
Now they are sent to market. The shad which in 1880 constituted about one-
third of the value of the whole fisheries of North Carolina, at the present
day do not constitute more than one-fifth in value; and, whereas it consti-
tuted about one-sixth of the quantity taken in 1880, today it is about one-
thirtieth. That is, out of every thirty pounds of fish taken in North Carolina
today, one pound is shad; and out of every six pounds taken in 1880 one
pound was shad. You are straining the waters clear of fishes; you are
taking everything, whereas in the old days you took the most valuable and
let the others go. All that is the direct result of your local method of
handling the fisheries. I think, Mr. Chairman, that it ought to be very plain
to those present that the moral to which I pointed this morning in discussing
the oyster fisheries is equally applicable to the fin fishes. You have exactly
the same conditions, and I will say that that particular State I discussed
this morning, Louisiana, has recognized that, and after giving a trial to cen-
tralization in oysters they are now about to apply it to the fin fishes.
 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Chairman:—I would now like to have some short and informal talks
from those interested in this subject. I would like to have the delegates
give their ideas as to the best means for remedying conditions in their
own particular sections.

MR. IVES.

This is a question in which I am very much interested, and have been
for many years, as you all doubtless know. I have been interested in
this business as a business for a long time, for this is my thirty-eighth year.
So I ought really to know something about it. I started this business at
Beaufort and Morehead in 1874. At that time there was no shipping done, no
express rates, and North Carolina had most of her oysters then as they do
now from Norfolk. After a few years, with the aid of Mr. Webb at Morehead
City and the express agent there, I was able to build up a large oyster busi-
ness. At that time there could be caught very large quantities of very fine
oysters in North Carolina, in Core Sound, etc. Nothing was known as to the
supply in Pamlico Sound at that time. All of the fishing business in North
Carolina was done from Beaufort, Morehead City, and New Bern. Wilming-
ton had no shipping business. Of course the shad interests from the sounds
were as today. The herring was sold, put up in barrels, and there was no
local shipping trade except at the points I spoke of. At that time the waters
of North Carolina teemed with fish. If the fish were as plentiful today as
they were when I began the business and the same amount of apparatus were
fished, I venture to say that the Norfolk Southern Railroad could not furnish
enough cars to haul them away. There have been times in the course of my
business when there was a very great profit in handling the fish and oyster
business. Today the conditions are entirely different. The fish have been
caught up. They have been cleaned up. The fishermen are not any better
off and the people are worse off. The oyster business is in exactly the same
condition. When I started the business we could get all the oysters we
wanted in Core Sound. iNo finer oysters grew than those which could be found
in Core Sound, New River, and Jarrett’s Bay; now they are all cleaned up
or else of such small size that they are not of much value. In those days the
dealers of Baltimore who could not get enough oysters to supply their demand
from the Chesapeake Bay and were looking elsewhere for their supply, came
to North Carolina. They put up factories here and they have about cleaned
up all the oysters. Today the principal supply comes from Bay River, Jones
Bay, and I am satisfied that there will not be as many oysters caught in Bay
River all this season as I used to take out in a single day. Any farmer
knows that if he takes virgin soil he can clean up woodlots and he will find
that land very productive for several years, but if he continues to work that
land and does not return anything to the soil, if he doesn’t spread stable
manure or something to keep that soil up it will soon be exhausted and yield
nothing. The oyster and fishing business is just in the same condition.
They have left comparatively nothing. I happened to be in Raleigh some
fifteen or twenty years ago and had an interview with Mr. Fred Olds. I
told him then what would be the result if something was not done to stop
this destruction of fish and oysters in North Carolina. He asked what was
the solution. I replied: “My opinion is to take it out of the hands of the
politicians and the Legislature and put it into the hands of a commission of
two, three, or five men and let them regulate this matter.’ Just so long as

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA QT

you leave it in the hands of local politicians, nothing will ever be done to
protect the real interests of the fisheries. Every county has diverse interests,
and there are diverse interests in the same county, and the only thing to do
is to put the whole matter in the hands of a commission, which can listen to
the various complaints, ascertain local conditions, and legislate as is best for
the whole people. It is a fact that the people along the coast think that the
people up country have not a thing to do with it. They want to run the
thing themselves. They think about this thing as the old wreckers used to
think about the wrecks that came on shore—that the good Lord sent them for
their own special benefit and that no one else, not even the people who were
wrecked, had anything to say about it. I have heard it said that if dredgers
went up Bogue Sound and over on New River and other points that the people
living in that section would shoot at them. So you see that these people
think that the fish and oysters belong to them because they happen to live in
that immediate vicinity.

Now as to legislation, what I told Mr. Olds twenty years ago has surely
proved true. The business is in just about the same state of chaos so far as
legislation is concerned as it ever was, and so far as profits are concerned it
is infinitely worse than it ever was. The last Legislature had a bill before
them which seemed to me a most excellent one. I thought when the Com-
mittee was appointed by the Legislature of 1909, and they came through the
eastern part of the State, that that was the wisest thing that North Carolina
had ever done—to send out a commission of disinterested men to go through
the section of the commercial fisheries of North Carolina, hear the fishermen
and oystermen, and get at the thing at first hand, and then make a report to
the succeeding Legislature. I thought that was practical and that some-
thing would be done, and I surely was very much disgusted and surprised
when the last Legislature turned down all that work and nothing came of it,
accomplished absolutely nothing, put back the industry just where it was, or
perhaps in worse condition. The interests of fish and oysters will not be
conserved until sweeping laws are passed and then enforced. Now as to the
oyster, twenty-five or thirty years ago I probably shipped more oysters to
Atlanta than any other one point. That was my big market. I am satisfied
that I have not shipped an oyster to Atlanta now in ten years. We do not
furnish the State of North Carolina one-tenth of the oysters that are sold.
If the oysters are to be destroyed legally by the State and none put back,
what can we expect other than what we have today? And the fishing business
is going in the same way. Speaking of legislation, a few of us went to
Raleigh some years ago and went before a committee. We tried to show them
what the conditions were in North Carolina. Mr. Potter, who is here from
Carteret County, was one of us. After a great deal of trouble we managed to
get that committee together, and told them what we thought was needed.
They finally told us to go back and draw up a bill and send it up. We did
so, and Mr. Potter came up and we spent a day, possibly two, in perfecting
that bill; one of the provisions of that bill was that in order to conserve the
oyster industry of the State the administration of the law must be taken out
of the hands of local politicians and put in the hands of a disinterested com-
mission. The trouble is, they want to keep things in the hands of local
politicians.

A Delegate:—As regards Bay River and Jones Bay we have about
as many oysters there today as we ever had, but they are a little small.

  

 

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28 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Judge Graham:—I see we have a former Fish Commissioner with
us, Mr. Theodore S. Meekins, and we would be glad to hear from him as
to his views in this matter.

MR. MEEKINS.

In the first place it seems to me that we have plenty of law. When
I began to study the fish question I found in the old Code, made in 1883,
we had four pages relative to fishing. When The Code was revised in 1905
I think you will find about forty pages relative to fishing. I think today if
you will add the statutes to The Code passed you would have one hundred
and twenty-five pages or more relative to fishing laws of North Carolina, and
it takes in all the counties that have fishing in them; and yet when you go
up to the Legislature and talk about fish bills and some way of enforcing these
laws, that has always been turned down. It is not a hard matter to pass a
law to prohibit fishing anywhere, but it is an awfully hard matter to pass a
law to get the machinery to enforce that law. We all know that our fishing
industry has decreased and the oyster industry has decreased, and the point
now is, what is the remedy? In 1909 there was a resolution passed appoint-
ing a Fish Committee to investigate the fishing conditions in North Carolina,
and that was a very able committee, and it took in men from every part of
the State. They did not travel through many counties before they found
that it was absolutely impossible to undertake to make local laws for each
place. So they recommended a general law, carrying with it an appropriation
of ten thousand dollars, with sufficient power to make rules and regulations
to suit the different sections of the State. When that report, in the way of
a bill, was read to me that part which gave the Fish Commissioner the right
to change the laws to some extent was the part I objected to. At first
it did not appear to me that any number of men should have any right to
legislate for our fishing industry. Since that time I have given the matter
a great deal of study and read the laws and have thought about it a great
deal, and I have come to the conclusion that the only way we can ever get a
proper adjustment of our laws is to appoint a board of fisheries, and let that
board of fisheries be clothed with the power to make such regulations as
seem to be for the best interests of each particular locality. It is true you
could not make a general law which would be applicable to all sections of
the State. It is also true that you can not present to the Legislature of
North Carolina the local conditions. It has been suggested to me that there
is a danger in leaving this matter with five or seven or nine men. I believe
that that is the nearest to a right thing that we can get, because there is
danger of leaving it to one hundred and sixty men.

As to oystering, I remember from 1895 to 1911 the people from Virginia
and Maryland came in our sounds in vessels ranging from fifteen to sixty tons
and completely covered Pamlico Sound, which was full of oysters (and it is
full today of small oysters and rocks), and dredged up our oysters and took
them to Virginia and Maryland for planting; and we permitted it. I counted
myself one day sixty steamer vessels dredging for small oysters, which they
took to Virginia for planting.

I know that we should be ashamed of the condition of our oyster and fish
industries, and I did feel very badly when Mr. Lee called our attention this
morning to the conditions existing in North Carolina as compared with
Virginia.

opie

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 29

Chairman:—We have with us Mr. J. H. Potter, who is from one of
the largest fishing counties of North Carolina, Carteret, and who has
been engaged in the fishing industry for a great many years. He is
from Currituck County. We should be pleased to hear from him,

Mr. Potter:—I have been engaged in this business for about thirty
years. The effort of our people has been not to develop the industry,
but to deplete it. In other words, to take in all they could get and do

nothing for the industry. (The balance of Mr. Potter’s talk could not
be heard by the stenographer.)

Delegate from Craven County:—I have been fishing ever since I was
eleven years old. We have never had any scarcity of fish until they put
pound nets in our waters. Oyster dredges and pound nets have ruined
the oyster and fishing industry in North Carolina. No longer ago than
yesterday there was 10,000 pounds of small mullets caught and put on
the market, which could not be sold. I have simply had to go out of
the business in order to make a living for my family, because there was
not a living in fishing.

Judge A. W. Graham then made a talk on

WHAT CAN NORTH CAROLINA DO?

It is a matter which I have thought on for many years. It has been my
fortune, and some say misfortune, to serve a gcod many years in the Legisla-
ture for my county, Granville. I have been struck in examining the many
industries of North Carolina as to how little attention we have paid to the
conserving of many of our great natural industries. We have rather been dis-
posed to let each locality work out its own ideas along its own lines. The
consequence has been that we have not been sufficiently united along any one
subject to make the success of it which should be achieved for that subject.
I think any one who has been in the Legislature of North Carolina will bear
me out in saying that there is no subject that causes more discussion in the
Legislature of our State and upon which there is a greater diversity of opin-
ion than upon this fish and oyster question. It is something like working
the public roads. If there is anything that every man thinks he is an expert
at, it is in working the public roads, and I have found in eastern North
Carolina that the same opinion prevails with regard to the fish and oyster
industries. The trouble is that we have had too much diversity and not
enough unity. Recognizing this fact, the Legislature of 1909, of which I was
the Speaker of the House, decided to appoint a committee consisting of three
members from the House and two members from the Senate, and to this bill
an amendment was made including the Speaker of the House and the Presi-
dent of the Senate. The duty of this committee was to visit all the fisheries
along the coast and try to collect such evidence as would give them a true
idea as to the real conditions of the fishing industries. The result of all this
work was a report put in the form of a bill, which recommended that ten thou-
sand dollars be given to the support of the Fisheries Commission. I myself
would like to have seen it twenty thousand dollars, or as much as was needed
to bring the industry back to the point where it could be self-supporting.
 

 

30 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

This is indeed a great industry, and means a great deal to the people of
North Carolina. It has now reached a very low ebb, and the Oyster Com-
mission is in debt and seems to go deeper in debt each year. The State has
spent money to develop other sections of the State, in building the North
Carolina Railroad, and I see no reason why a sufficient sum of money should
not be spent to conserve this great natural resource which means so much to
eastern North Carolina. Something has been said in regard to the opening of
certain of the inlets and as to the shallowness of the inlets. I believe that
the members in Congress from these sections should introduce a bill for a
Federal appropriation for deepening these inlets and for keeping them open.
A similar proposition was considered in 1824 and an engineer was sent by

the Federal Government to look over the proposition, and in his report a
said it was feasible. The matter was again taken up in 1840, but up to the

present time nothing has been done.

Delegate from Brunswick County:—I want to state to these people
that while the eastern counties are more acquainted with the oyster
fishing and river fishing, Brunswick County, and a few other csr oe
along the coast, only have the conditions of mullet fishing. In other
words, Brunswick County has no shad fishery. There are two or three
small rivers in Brunswick County and they afford no shad at all.
Again we have no railroads through Brunswick County to give ed
chance to ship fresh fish or oysters. We see no oysters from ont
County for shipping and our only fishing is the surf fishing, eas is
the mullet fishing. The point I wanted to show is this: would a law
which suited some of these eastern counties, would that law apply to
Brunswick and others in regard to the mullet fishing? ,

A. That is the reason I recommended that a commission be appointed
to make such rules and regulations as would suit your section and every
other section of the State.

Delegate from Carteret County:—I am a fisherman by trade. The
decrease of our fishing is going on fast. The purse seines made *
catch fat-back are taking up edible fish and destroying these rea ie
by thousands of pounds. Now, we want protection. Unless our fis fs
protected there will be no fish. We bane one seine not un
1 1-4 inch bar and any gill nets not over 1 3-8 inches.

Q. Would you be willing to join in a request for a law to that effect?

Would your county do that?

A. Yes. ‘ :
At this point the Chairman of the Committee on Resolutions stated

that that Committee was ready to report, and the chair called for the
report.

REPORT OF COMMITTEE ON RESOLUTIONS.

The Committee on Resolutions appointed by the Convention beg

leave to report as follows: : ’
1. That we recommend that this Convention organize a permanent

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 31

association, to be known as The North Carolina Fisheries Association ;
and that a president; a first vice-president; secretary and treasurer;
and vice-presidents representing each county represented in this Con-
vention, and other counties engaged in commercial fishing; and an ex-
ecutive committee to be composed of the president, first vice-president,
secretary and treasurer, and five other members of the Association, be
elected.

2. That a legislative committee be appointed by the president by and
with the advice of the executive committee, said legislative committee
to be composed of members of the Association representing the differ-
ent sections and different branches of the fishing industry.

3. Your committee respectfully recommends the following officers to
serve for the term of one year and until their successors shall be ap-
pointed, viz.: for president, Mr. George N. Ives, of New Bern, N. C.;
first vice-president, C. S. Vann, Edenton N, C.; secretary and treasurer,
Dr. Joseph Hyde Pratt, Chapel Hill, N. C.; executive committee,
Messrs. E. R. Daniels, of Dare County; T. J. Markham, of Pasquotank;
W. H. Jones, of Pamlico; C. H. Sterling, of Beaufort; OC. S. Wallace,
of Carteret; Julian Wood, of Chowan, and A. S. Rascoe, of Bertie.

4. That the annual dues to be paid by members of the Association
shall be twenty-five cents.

5. That the Executive Committee formulate and establish rules by
which the Association shall be governed until the next annual meeting
of the Association, at which time the committee shall recommend suit-
able by-laws and a constitution.

6. That the convention recommend the enactment by the General As-
sembly of a State-wide law regulating the preservation and taking of
fin fish and shell fish in and from the waters of the State and providing
that such law shall be executed by a fisheries commission appointed by
the General Assembly, or otherwise, as may be provided, said commis-
sion to be vested with powers to promulgate rules and regulations that
shall have the force and effect of laws and shall have the power to fix the
penalty for the violation thereof, and that said law be formulated by the
Legislative Committee to be appointed at this meeting and to report at
the next annual meeting of this Association.

7. That the Executive Committee shall fix the time and place of the
next annual meeting.

8. That the vice-presidents of the Association be recommended by the
delegates in attendance from each county and appointed by the presi-
dent to hold office until the next annual meeting.

9. That the convention extend its thanks to the Board of Commis-
sioners for the county of Craven for the use of the court-house, and to
the New Bern Daily Journal, the New Bern Sun, and other newspapers

Ea as ee CE ee EN Le a RR ee en ee

 
 

 

 

 

 

32 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

of the State, for their kindly notices of this convention, and to —
Chamber of Commerce of the city of New Bern, and to the — 0
New Bern generally for their uniform kindness and courtesy, au -
the railroad companies which gave reduced rates to delegates to this

convention.
R. A. Nunn, Chairman, Craven County,

E. M. Kooncr, Onslow County,

Jorpan Carowan, Pamlico County,

C. P. Dey, Carteret County,

Jurran Woop, Chowan County,

E. R. Danzzxs, Dare County,

C. H. Srertine, Beaufort County,

T, J. Marxwam, Pasquotank County,

H. J. Grecory, Perquimans County,

W. Haynes, Edgecombe County,

J. Smrruerwick, Washington County,
F. Sommersert, Brunswick County,

J. E. Ronson, New Hanover County,

J. T. Drxon, Jones County,

JosernH Hype Pratt, Orange County, —
Committee on Resolutions.

M.
W.
J.

i i d.
The resolutions were unanimously adopte : Re
Mr. Nunn proposed that an amendment be made to give the Fis

eries Commission power to make rules and regulations suitable to the
ge soe mot st -—I think it would be essential that this ig yo
for which you are providing should meet before the next specie? “ty
General Assembly. We hope that a larger attendance will e at poe’
vention than are here now and that every county will be heard ir
upon any bill which will be recommended to the pia Roe pee
Mr. Ward:—I think if you advertise that you are going Q
general ftsh law you will have to get the biggest auditorium in easter
rolina to hold them. ;
gr ade anal resolution that was not read in the report . the
Committee was one that we want to bring up on the floor of = foe
and that is that this convention extend to Mr. W. MeDonald i _ :
Commissioner of Virginia, our sincere thanks and appreciation tor "
time and trouble he has taken to come down here and tell us ~ pice
of his work in Virginia; and we also wish to express our — : sont
H. F. Moore, of the United States Bureau of Fisheries, who has :
and has constantly shown his interest in our work in eastern =
Carolina by spending weeks and even months in trying to show us

FO Sean T AE ELT SER

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 33

to save ourselves from ourselves. I move we take a rising vote of
thanks to these two gentlemen.

The resolution was unanimously adopted by a rising vote.

Mr. Lee, after gracefully thanking the convention for its kind words
of thanks, said: “I think that the resolutions you have submitted cover
the ground entirely. I believe that you will have admirable results
and by the time of your next annual meeting you will be in a position
to present a strong front to the Legislature for the adoption of these
resolutions. I do not know the temper of your Legislature, but if I
were a North Carolinian, especially from eastern North Carolina, I
would go after that Legislature and would keep after them until some-
thing was done to reéstablish this great industry. What you want is to
be given a general law as concise and brief as possible containing a few
basic principles in establishing your commission; then empower that
commission of fisheries with such powers as will enable them to make
sufficient rules or laws suitable for the various districts of the State.
As for the details of Brunswick, or Chuchachuck, or whatever else you
may call your counties, leave it to the discretionary powers of that com-
mission, even to the point of taxation, and of restricting fishing here and
there, and you will find that you will reap your best results.”

The adoption of the above resolutions meant the organization of a
North Carolina Fisheries Association, and the following fifty-eight
members paid their dues and became charter members of that Associa-

tion:

CHARTER MEMBERS OF NORTH CAROLINA FISHERIES ASSOCIATION.

Name. Address.
See eke 1 Cds ee ea Ce) oy ts Cae isese dbawied yee Chee ba New Bern, N. C.
I , SNES chain's 841 de SRed Coins Sea 65 cee swiss +s cua Mesic, N. C.
IMEEM sas. ith op hid fa'p Ai pages ode’ panies o E'ed baice ee meee Wanchese, N. C.
RR IS RR SE GF Fe aR ame nr Pe ee rr Vie POM em Wanchese, N. C.
is «i ta as vt ROA 5. < WEES CE GOLA We (AAS Oe Trenton, N.C.
MMos nds Wb nine 35 tes <a DP RAAT OS Ue ¢ bha ota hoe Mann’s Harbor, N. C.
ren ST i, a aes een’ k race waieh bWak ASS 60's 0.84 CARRS Cee Ae eed wh Hertford, N. C.
TT SRG A OW eb i's Sy gcag Mb eaw dake Lin s'g'? Chcanren enna Mae C8 Oxford, N. C.
PAGO. Thee, a cede Pata Ghd Vee weak ice O+,44 de 9 MeN eh oe Durant’s Neck, N. C.
ene RIG, OSRORO ND Sig hoe eg Me iin aid ONG dak ewig anata ane Tarboro, N. C,
POET STU Cahn ins oT Aina Vee weg SIRE. c Geo nike 44 6 Sivele Raia hs 6 vk Swansboro, N.C.
MEORMM ALD UN pica sd ca pakes scbeaW eM sReL ea oh’ 60 awe meee s Durant’s Neck, N.C.
RPO ON osha Se evn cus bh te, b PR GWad eS Mad ORBLE p09 bebe ees Supply, N.C.
PRUE RACER ora, bin: vcth ep aha saat COA 4d dabee Seeks cat New Bern, N.C.
EVOM POUR ARee te CaUs Ke Ti bwe fsa esas pend eka DESPRE ERY betes New Bern, N. C.
JECODMON Fe «Mack Zhe tks bau bls «Ud Brg CAS hws bes EE Washington, N. €.
TONGS Adee Se Bids was kek acg atin peednck Ws. sa1 a8 5 0 ban UC os rae Pamlico, N. C.
Koonce, E. M..... Wedel std cb kV eo Vaan ewe a ke's «deus ekige Jacksonville, N.C.
EMOCAMOE Si Wrek iss dscns ch Sn ceath hele eeRdi aS aeae dss padi on « Supply, N. C.
EQATPUTEY Bese e'h Spas saw cab a so aps RM se beh Ssnsine sees abbaa age as Edenton, N.C.

3

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

34 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA
f
Name. Address.

POE PRR cee SCY Gath ev eae ct eat bk60e eet saben ...-Morehead City, N.C.
PAUPERON, OODE. OG W ois vs dfs eck ce kwes bec bec ce beeehe eine Swansboro, N. C.
PRRORRO DHOD ss LU CoP ais vivo oo ee eee ae ap ey, 3 Elizabeth City, N. C.
TASMAN GEE wiggle be cso sis Ges Ted CEU Seen EL Manteo, N. C.
MSO tE NG, Bee ea at be hen cee ok rare wae Ma's sae eOEe Pek cae Rodanthe, N. C.
PEAEMNE, BAIN. dh 55s Sw ecb ache wg areal bball 6 waded Rae's bo ose bade ree a Skyco, N.C.
MOOTe, PP TBs eess cocks. baicei Nts ak eie aia + NEES TO ee Washington, D. C.
PROPOR MOO add Cc dk aa cio dea ats Eee Wigs kdeodek oe ere eae cee Fees Hubert, N.C.
IN UN SOOM UME AL S'S cies kb seb a Toe a BOCK hi cae aan bi arg New Bern, N.C.
OM A ss Bten fs FETs Seniesa Re AO Swansboro, N. C.
POPIOU Pres 6600s 5% ‘ir Uipbb ieee Swetets orton. R. F. D. No. 2, Hertford, N.C.
PRS TBs ais ieee gid be vciey h alk viedo Savkleaien eh ee jai igek Pamlico, N. C.
PIU, OS Soak bis SA bigs kas sree Kee acae path headed Hubert, N.C.
yg LAE A 5 ice ORL OOD Ob arent bate ARB se ar aE OK. iy |. Chapel Hill, N. Cc.
STIVOUG We COLE iiss cl bck cheat Tubwdes oad Gace cabin ceery Edenton, N. C.
Dd sig OA ORRIN PR SEAL te SO ge eRe an Cra ere ters arth, Pe eh ras Edenton, N. C.
meObingOn 1), His hc as ees to ee a on each se eeS Supply, N. Cc.
Brae dros Ones, Bs vi css aiiveki tks ules bdo’ ere Perey Mann’s Harbor, N. C.
COR ee ok stu aire let Salt bile kas $4 ¥eeiirn ravers siete 8 Trenton, N. C.
MST MENON Scan. sad s ous ecko Gc cpa ae hia e sees} kak ee vadind epee Bogue, N.C.
Smitherwick, A. W........ techs sbeaevewes cee Siesta Weare Blount’s Creek, N. C.
DOE WHOK S06 oe Sa Hai oka Peis vob eee .--Blount’s Creek, N. C.
BOmMereet. Fo PA 2 ¢ Pikes Moe eiaw es CES Kwa eS Ka enies Seaside, N. C.
PORE NGS UR, dade Sugars Shand pean oc he Li Phew e renee hea ....Washington, N.C,
IIMs: ales outlet Imei coae sty « § bee Heeb Washington, N.C.
ATG Eas ak Lett O05 ove BR 5 AIK bre 5's cies WO MEE Gea Bia On va Mann’s Harbor, N. C.
Toler FONN so 6 Mase coe eedee CdR S gia Pe aee es rh re Matt: .Mashoes, N. C.
GRMN PAG ae ea ODER vclewek HON ce Leah Sina a vacew ess VeEb gwen New Bern, N.C.
RM geisha acces. cl Sale ek Je ia beceet axe eue Edenton, N.C.
DEMO MAM rae Ce ek Gee tis Avo 1 os «Gad 4 peta oa New Bern, N.C.
WERE, MNES oc ale ke oe GRSTE baad Rab Pe dk tes 404 x Cane d hee tae reek Hubert, N. C.
NV EDEN US MS 64 au Kalk 6-0 ood sw ne seaeeitedseebes does ced ve aces ta ernie th
NY SOMBRE Eh trek sick ciate o'wa'eieree'e's'elbe e'ereetd 6 seeeeseeessMorehead City, N.C.
Woods. Giitriccdcecdi EXCEL Loe gawd COANE be cin ha Pe aude e Spec en eeentnEL ve Us
WY WOM PETAR BURMA cd tina vs Gu aol 04 bab bis ilohs Wome eumar bed daca ee ene:
Wood, Julian *..:.. CCdS 66s Keb eces helene oKibes se ...-.Edenton, N. C.
Wood; He Ay. sss Cave eeu es bas Sia een tee eek oo ehy sidre efor rds GENO USER IRE DCCs
"Wooten, Fi Wee eacivs os re ar Lperem ae e% eens c's a nme eet. we Trenton, N.C.

Convention then adjourned until 7:30 p. m.

NIGHT SESSION.

Wepnespay, December 13, 1912.

Chairman:—Gentlemen, it is now in order to have a call of the Con-
vention to see whom each county will have to represent it as vice-presi-

dent. Dr. Pratt will call the roll of fishing counties,

County. Vice-President. Address.
OMTrituck. 005i. s ices eceeesGeo. Cason ..... eure ss Knott’s Island, N. C.
Camden ..... eRe ERE Ppa ee Rs 8.) Be WUBI Fé eect ak ese sev eae Camden, N. C.
Pasquotank ..... Koreeas RRs ie Ry Py ORTON 6 iss caries Elizabeth City, N. C.

POR aT ye

ee

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 35
County. Vice-President. Address.

Chowan ....ccscccess ered ton T. H. Shepard...... digo dm him -....Edenton, N.C,
Gate iden vaneaws GM, Cw SEG Los Fe REOROE) ohh add eb Oa EE +++---Gatesville, N. C.
Herter: .5 sc cess vadeens den D. Cy Barnes... Sepciaaaes Murfreesboro, N. C.
BOTti)S) odo. cdc eepavseees ip a ie a TONS, Moecds bald no's bh vcr en Windsor, N. C.
WURAMWE och oc aceer ess tinate MOMs MAIC 6. ee pes a Plymouth, N. C.
Tyrrell os... see even he GATOR TEOIOUUG oh a dha sn deine *,..Columbia, N. C.
FRVOG a vv deketccudiee Seon cess ahs, Wap OC WV AAIMNNIR 6 6c b.pbhioe ooke pa Ocracoke, N. C.
DATO a cvccdeeecvcse Ase Gia's GHW Os Sie TAMU LUE 'bie0'h Die Sui Svcd dies ans Manteo, N. C.
Pamlico ....seceeee Acbie guess C ORGAN, UBTAWAN <4). 0. eetees tenes Mesic, N. C.
MIGURRONE coon dea ck see es hp dha W.-M PY WORE aes t oss oid s sexs Washington, N. C.
Hdgecombe .....cccccccccces Bi We SERED oc ised beSacshes thous Tarboro, N.C.
RP aavckc ci watepes< vee baae Eres MECN FU ou 0b 8 Coo bee ko Re bes Bruce, N. C,
BORGES 5. os eke Kees i Sickie cece lke. Amen EME Gl Gur «so 97e ok ber 4 oy ieee Kinston, N. GC.
RIT OUON oo och b weed Cee es.oanes Bryvee AUGOrhon hoo. 5 has onan o> New Bern, N. C.
AFCO CS oo 5 ch eee eae Vee es 4.6 Bis ARUN 4 a5 pad 44 ves nia ee 8 Lupton, N.C.
PerawiMane, ox osesd yes e000. PLO OROLY ss sa tues ane 4 Durant’s Neck, N. C.
WONG ind occ ca dbtnas oes woises ah aR  s hikck Foose leah 2 84 et nil Trenton, N.C.
OnslowW icant vedese Seay ah igh piu h ta Are, SOMA s uu 45% ce els dae ee ee Hubert, N. C.
New Hanover .........-. ah hase Meta GaN a dws tou) 6 Hee SAR ho aes Wilmington, N. C.
BUNS WICK. 3b cicciss 006 no0d evens ot ROMO A shies dae) ca aeons Supply, N.C.
Pender: v0 6s.s eve Dinca U ature kn GNah sce hselcc ie Sian 09a ee Ak BIR Ain: dae hee owed ie Ae
Columbus ..... cihealwia'g pa Bieta wea: ake. COPE Sn 6 aa ab wesw hie ....-Chadbourn, N. C.
Cumberland ....... CPE a + wiih ie AMEE Tg bse Spheres Weds R. 3, Fayetteville, N. C.
CeAnvING vic ss ccn ss idee wares JUSO AL We GRADO . occ kedoees Oxford, N. C.

Mr. Markham:—I understood that these vice-presidents were to be
members of the Association. I would state that the vice-president named
for Camden is not here, and is therefore not a member.

Chairman:—The Committee on Nominations considered it advisable
for the counties, as far as possible, to appoint vice-presidents, and if
these counties were not’ represented and thus unable to join the Associa-
tion, that they be notified of their election as vice-presidents and be re-
quested to join the Association. If they do not wish to join the Associa-
tion, why then the President would be requested to appoint a vice-presi-
dent to represent that county.

Chairman:—Any county in Piedmont or western North Carolina in-
terested enough to send delegates to the convention will be entitled to a
vice-president. When we adjourned for supper the question was: What
can North Carolina do to conserve the fishing industry within her bor-
ders? We would now like to continue this question.

Mr. Nunn:—An amendment to the resolution was brought into the
convention this afternoon. I think that the change suggested ought to
be made. I move that this amendment to give the Fisheries Commission
power to make rules and regulations suitable to the various districts be
adopted.

Motion carried.

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

36 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

At this point Dr. Pratt read some letters and telegrams of regret from
delegates who were unable to attend: Messrs. J. H. Currie, W. M. Webb,
John Shannon of Dare, J. E. Church, J. O. Kerr of Pender, B. F.
Etheridge of Dare. Mr. Etheridge’s letter was of particular interest.

Buxton, N. C., December 11, 1911.
Dr. JosepH Hype Pratt, State Geologist.

Stmr:—Yours of the 28th inst. received, notifying me of the fish convention
to be held in New Bern on the 13th and 14th inst.

Under the existing circumstances it is impossible for me to attend. But
by an experience of fifteen years as a fisherman all over the waters of North
Carolina under varied conditions, I have made it a point to observe closely
the forces that help in the destruction of the fish which teem in our waters.

It is a fact that the waters around the cape here (Cape Hatteras) seem
to be a gathering place for shark, porpoise, dog fish, ete. Up the coast north
of here they don’t seem to be encountered in any great number. But on
reaching the waters around Cape Hatteras the large body of fish are met by
the great horde of shark, ete., playing awful havoc with the marketable fish,
preventing the fisherman from catching them, and destroying countless
numters of young fish. By taking the proper action this can be diminished
to a large degree. These shark, porpoise, dog fish, and other scrap fish can
be caught at all seasons of the year and in great quantities. They can be
utilized in guano, tanneries, etc., so that an establishment for the purpose will
not only weaken the destroyers of thousands of dollars worth of fish, but
will enable the fishermen at this point to increase their earnings a hundred
per cent, at the same time paying a handsome dividend to the State or firm
establishing this plant. "

It has been my experience many times to cut open a shark and find more
than a bushel of small fish inside. I have also found as many as six full

grown shad inside one of these monsters.
Right at this point they seem to lay nearer the shore, in fact, right along

the sand, so that it is an easy matter to catch them in almost any quantity
desired. Should this letter be read in the convention, and the matter receive
any consideration, I will state that I will give free of charge a suitable site
for the location of a plant.

Should any further information be desired, I will gladly answer any cor-

respondence. Very sincerely yours,
(Signed) B. F. ETuHeEripce.

Dr. Moore:—I should like to make some comments on that letter,
that is, the utilization of a number of our fishes which now go to
waste. It is a fact that on the coast of New England, and on the
Canadian coast, there are herds of dog fish, shark, and other fish of
this nature. They not only destroy a great many of the edible fishes at
large, but work great havoc on the fishes caught in the nets. These
fishes not only destroy but drive away a great many of the edible fish
and are a very serious menace to the fishes. The Canadian government
has taken cognizance of this fact and for several years has been carry-
ing on experiments in the utilization of these dog fish, shark, ete.; not

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 37

only the utilization of the flesh of the fish in the production of fertilizer,
but the use of these fish as an article of food. I know on some portions
of our coasts there are considerable quantities of these fish which have
proven quite a menace to our edible fish. The United States Bureau
of Fisheries has also been experimenting, and it has been found that
these fish, which are despised as an article of diet, are a very good food
product. I have eaten it and it‘compares favorably with others which
are recognized articles of food. The larger sharks are also valuable
in this respect.. In the waters of the Mediterranean Sea and other
parts of the world the shark is by no means a despised fish. The shark
is no more uncleanly in his habits than a great many of the fish we do
consume. The Spanish mackerel and bluefish feed on the same class
of food as the shark, and the individual fishes eaten are as a rule small.

Q. Is the fish known as the dog fish a species of shark?

A. Yes, but it is smaller than the shark.

Mr. C. H. Sterling, of Beaufort County:—Mr. Chairman and gen-
tlemen, I am a fisherman, also sell fish, and know something about it.
As to the needs of legislation there is no question in my mind that some-
thing ought to be done. We have been up against the fish question for
about ten or fifteen years. I have had occasion to attend all these fish
conventions and also did go to the Legislature in the interests of our
section, to fight what we called bad bills. Now, if anything can be done
by this convention that will help straighten these matters out I want to
do it. I believe we are heading in the right direction. I believe the
organization effected here today will have its weight and if carried on
along the right lines will no doubt work great good to the fishing inter-
ests of North Carolina. As to the pound nets, drag nets, and seines,
some man has said that the pound nets are the root of all evils. I think
he is mistaken. I have seen seines pull in hundreds of little fish that a
pound net would not catch. The same thing with drag nets. When this
commission gets together to make a law, each kind of net will have to
be looked after and each section or district or waters where the fishing
is going on, the commission will have to arrange some rules or regu-
lations that will suit that section, and I believe that they will do this,
and I am willing to give my time and have done it, and if necessary a
little money, to bring this matter about. ;

As to the oysters I want to say that for the last few weeks I have
been down on the oyster rocks. I have no complaint to make against
the inspector, but I was on the rock yesterday in Pamlico sound and
bought about 200 bushels of oysters. Some of them were entirely too
small. I called the man’s attention to it and said, part of these oysters
ought to be carried back into the Sound and deposited, but he said they
were all doing it and unless they sold small ones they would have none

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

38 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

to sell. Now I bought some of those oysters that ought to have gone
back into the Sound. For such a condition as that some regulation ought
to be provided. I know it is mighty hard for a man who lives in that
section to appeal to these people to throw the oyster back. I believe a
bill can be made that will be suitable. There is no reason why it can
not be done. I for one will help to put this thing in such shape that not
only the laws can be passed but enforced.

Mr. W. E. Swindell of Beaufort Cownty:—I would like to emphasize
one point made by the Chairman of this convention, and that is in re-
gard to our inlets. None of the inlets have half the water on the inside
that they had a number of years ago. I think that accounts for the
small number of shad which come into our waters. As a rule, they stay
in deep water. In order to get in Hatteras Inlet they have to go into
water not over 4 to 4 1-2 feet deep. Another thing that we want to con-
sider is this: There has been a good deal of discussion on how to catch
fish—we also have to consider the way to sell them. Shad and herring
fish are sold all during the spring up to the latter part of April, then
they come under the present laws for a closed season. There is no other
fish that can be marketed until the middle of May, so that the dealer is
practically put out of commission for a whole- month and loses his
trade. By that time our trade is gone. I think that question ought to
be gone into by the gentlemen when they take up the question of recom-
mendations, because the fish dealer must be able to get the fish to supply
his customers. In regard to the different kinds of nets used, I think
there is practically no difference from the destructive standpoint.

Mr. Ives:—What Mr. Swindell said about the closed season as affect-
ing the interests of North Carolina and Virginia about the fishing is
also true about the oyster business. As the law now stands and has
stood for a number of years, we are not allowed to get any oysters until
the middle of November. Some years oysters are good in October and
we have calls for oysters, and if we can not furnish them, of course they
go to Virginia; then when Virginia gets the trade there is not much use
in our trying to get it back. It seems to me that the season ought to be
left open to natural causes. I am just going to ask a question of per-
sonal privilege. I want to put myself right as to how I stand with pol-
iticians. I believe in politics, have voted all my life, and I believe

politicians have a great deal to do in the shaping of our laws, and
should have. I admire certain kinds of politicians, but I still contend

that the fishing industry should not be made a matter of politics.
Mr. E. M. Koonce, of Onslow County:—Mr. Chairman, in answer to

the inquiry that the chairman makes about the New River oyster, would
say that they are right there now. It is a well-known fact that an oyster
is bound to catch hold of something in order to live when it is spawned.

Te AE ae oe ee ee ae ee

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 39

He wants to take hold of anything that is not dirty. If we were to save
all the oysters that spawn in the waters of North Carolina they would

stop up all the streams leading out to the ocean. We have a wonderful
territory in Onslow County for the propagation of the oyster.

Mr. E. R. Daniels, of Dare County:—I want to say in regard to the
depth of water in the inlets that Hatteras Inlet, New Inlet, and Oregon
Inlet are the ones that the shad and herring come in. Not many come
in at the lower inlets. Fifteen or 18 years ago we had at least 18 feet
of water on Hatteras Bar. Today I guess we have 4 or 5 feet, and it is
well known that shad and herring will not come in as shallow water
as that. I believe the sea has just as many fish now as then, but
they won’t come in over that bar. The same thing about New Inlet. Z
was told two days before I left home, when I asked the question how
much water could be got on New Inlet at low water—the fisherman
said 12 or 14 inches. Now as to Oregon Inlet; 18 years ago there were

15 or 20 feet of water there. Today I guess there is about 4 feet on the
bar. When the sea is rough that makes the channel break there. In

regard to Mr. Evans’ letter about shark and herring, there are thousands
of them that lie around in the inlet, and they destroy thousands of fish.
The shark, porpoise, and dog fish are the ones. The shark and herring

come in at the last of ebb tide, when the water is the lowest.
Mr. Ives:—I should like to hear from Dr. Moore about that matter of

the inlets.
Dr. Moore:—I have listened with considerable interest to what has

been said about the closing of the inlets as a factor in the depletion of
the shad fisheries in North Carolina. While I am not prepared to con-

trovert these statements I would say in the first place that this deple-

tion of the shad fisheries is not confined to North Carolina. It is a
ast where the shad fishery obtains.

common complaint all along our co
ast there are a number of streams

Now it so happens that along our co
against which no such complaint can be lodged. For instance in Dela-

ware River the same thing obtains and the water is deep. The fish are
not there because they have been caught. There have been immense
seines and immense gill nets which have been built to close up that
stream and catch practically all the fish running up it. You have prac-
tically the same condition in the Hudson, and it is also to be found in
Connecticut. Connecticut shad in colonial times were noted, and now
they are becoming very scarce. So that you see this condition is not
confined to your waters. The same condition is found in the waters of
Canada. The closure of these inlets may have something to do in pre-
venting the fish going up. Judge Graham made a statement a while
sigo which interested me mightily in regard to the shallow condition of
the inlets in 1824. Almost every one here knows a time when the shad

 

 
 

 

40

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

were much more abundant in North
member that fact.

this question of the
Each of these dates
inlets was at a low

Carolina than they are now. Re-
Now, Judge Graham has stated in his address that
closure of the inlets was brought up again in 1840,
antedated the times when the depth of water in these
ebb. The depth of these inlets fluctuates. I wish to
say it is probable and possible to excavate these inlets and make deeper
waters, but I venture to say that an engineer will tell you it is practi-
cally impossible to maintain the depth there.
keep dredging continually. I rather regret that this question of the
inlets has been broached. There is no doubt in my mind that over-fish-
ing and poorly regulated fishing is the cause of the trouble, and I regret
that anything should cloud this main fact in the mind of the convention.

Delegate from Brunswick County :—I was raised to a great extent
mostly an orphan boy. My father died when I was small, and I have
never had any advantage of any education. I have learned to work
hard with ‘my hands and these, of course, answer that question. As I
have heard a good old Baptist preacher say that he had never had the
advantage of rubbing his back against a college wall, and that is mainly
what has happened to me. I was partly raised in shallow water and
partly in the suds of the Atlantic Ocean, catching mullets, so you see I
ought to know how to eat and appreciate mullets. Our facilities for
fishing in Bunswick County only point to the mullet fishing, that is,
so far as our fishing or selling any fish to any amount. We have no
rivers in Brunswick County that afford any other fish to amount to any-
thing except the mullet. It seems that these eastern rivers have great
advantages of different kinds of bottom fish, such as the speckled trout
and gray trout. Our fishing is known principally as the mullet fishing,
which runs down the Atlantic coast. Always in our fishing season he
comes into our waters only from three and one-half to four months, so
it is only in such times we catch him, and if we do not catch him then

we do not get him so far as the plans run in Brunswick County.
Whereas to the outside surf fishing as we call it, the time is Septem-

ber, October, and November, which is all the time we have for fishing
business except our little creek seines, when we get a few fish for our
home consumption, also our hook and line. So mullet becomes our
industry. We have no facilities there of shipping fish whatever, except
salt fish. We have these mullets to clean and salt. During the cold
winter months while there is no outside surf fishing done, there is more
or less fishing with those little nets in those little rivers, and especially
more so when the fish are numb and frozen to some extent, or in other
words in a helpless condition. Consequently in these shallow rivers
where the water is in little holes and the fish are numb and in a helpless
condition, so to speak, they will surround them with one of these little

It would be necessary to

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 41

nets and take out all the fish, and maybe only a few of them can be
eaten. I have seen them make compost out of a great many of these
little fish.

A Delegate:—There are ten men catching fish now where there was
one 40 years ago. They catch good or bad, large or small. And there
are 10 to 20 people eating fish today where there was one 20 years ago.
Taking this into consideration, you may not have thought that fish may
be just as plentiful, yet each man ean catch only so many.

Mr. Privott moves that we adjourn sine die. Motion lost.

Judge Graham:—I wish to tender my sincere thanks for the honor
you have conferred upon me in asking me to act as your chairman today.
I believe that much good has been accomplished by this convention, and
hope that it will result in the passage of laws necessary for the pro-
tection of this great industry.

Dr. Pratt:—I would suggest that the president appoint a Legislative
Committee by and with the consent of the Executive Committee by a
letter ballot.

Mr. Ives:—What objection would there be if this Executive Commit-
tee meets at the Chamber of Commerce rooms to make up that commit-
tee tonight ?

Mr. Sterling:—I think it is a matter which ought to be discussed
very thoroughly by the members of the Executive Committee.

Dr. Pratt:—The resolution says that the Executive Committee should
appoint this committee.

It was moved and seconded that the President and Executive Com-
mittee take up this matter tonight.

Dr. Pratt:—I move that we adjourn until 9 o’clock tomorrow morn-
ing.

Mr. Privott:—I make an amendment to Dr. Pratt’s motion that we
adjourn tonight sine die, and name the committee by using the letter
ballot.

The Chairman :—Gentlemen, you have all heard Mr. Privott’s amend-
ment to Dr. Pratt’s motion.

Amendment and motion earried.

On Wednesday night at 9 o’clock a most enjoyable smoker was ex-
tended to the delegates by the New Bern Chamber of Commerce in the
splendid rooms of the Elks Club. This made a very pleasant close to a

most successful convention.
There was a meeting of the Executive Committee during the smoker

and arrangements were made for the appointment of a legislative com-
mittee.

 

|

wee ee

 

nt
   

42 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 43
REGISTERED DELEGATES. Name. County. Address.
The following persons registered as delegates to the Convention MM eaten ss Solumele sane ea Wanchese, N.C.
Name. County. Address. Os) Mls Danse y ous sie sak DHOE S10, Sas Or ees 3 oad uae he ae bas Wanchese, N. C.
Joseph Hyde Pratt........... MPRA Visas sche oe ce WEEE Chapel Hill, N.C. Theo. S. Meekins............. DATO csc to dk TEV. oe Manteo, N. C
Thos. J. Markham........... PORQUOURER S41 kooks Gan ss Elizabeth City, N. C. Charlie Hancock ...... Ring VAM N NY HOseind oo 4 eiicalawidwsaveo be Manteo, N. C
Hehry D. Aller........ be Wass ORBERNOE LC. os Fe Be es Beaufort, N. C. Re? Abie WRG A bce atee ns ce ges i SPAS SRN See UN TE New Bern, N.C.
John A. Royall.............. Carteret...... Boston, Mass., and Beaufort, N. C. BT SGregOrysscgs.e ea dbvey.ciis Perquimans. .........00004 Durant’s Neck, N.C.
GEL Scarberos. ios coe: aD MRL eat eS Te RE Mann’s Harbor, N.C. Paul Woedend iiss ik ods POMP ING) Site tars ick en Coane’ Whartonville, N.C.
Jesse J. Wilkinson.......... Beautort: ©, saints dese tes eu cau Belhaven, N. C. Re Ge MORON. vs a0 0:65 wdie's seas ORRIN Ay hstnat Sad ss uterine Hubert, N. C
L. N. Midgett...... Kees WAT O 5 eater asides oss oe Skyco, N. C. D. J. Sanders....... has deems ORBIT 6 osu diet ited Vind Waa Hubert, N.C
PODDMTOME re ieee es TIONG). 4a 5 OV co oe Pal ieee Mashoes, N. C. } 8 oe 3! © vveelecies POUND: Fi 5546-5 0 9 hk clare eis ba Pamlico, N. C,
OS Vann 2 cea eed Chewani oi eR a a Edenton, N. C. V5 See MO Sais o nsk. 0 00 Veen deed IE: Leia alesis Cis hoe cees ta eee Trenton, N. C.
EEO OUR Px yo sda CROWES Cite es ae ee Edenton, N. C. he: ee = 0Ts(- $e sinided TO SAAR. capes odo eaew en New Bern, N.C.
Jam: Ge Wool, Tyce hs. b2i5 ORO Wall os 0342, ah sae aos ei Edenton, N. C. Be ONT sts hiss i ca doe kee ERGY Gis s.s'au bee Wh oesikakeeeen New Bern, N. C.
Te WMO widatie ves on bee DAPO ss 6.8604 Li aah ak Mann’s Harbor, N.C. : Co Far Paper oo nde ak bean ois i ORE REE Ee Washington, N. C.
OR Pilcher ss cep ho cul 4 Date forts Ce veehi ccs Ex cana Mann’s Harbor, N. C. W. E. Swindell......... eres BORULOTE 6s ices sees cet eeaee Washington, N. C,
Dhoa: Smite ooo. she cies ean GQRLOTOE dsc ties Seo 5, csainte wie aes Bogue, N. C Ren NO Si sees ea hs 6 cue nda CHOWAN 0... cece ieee ceweseen: soe Edenton, N, C.
Ge We TAG Cane oo oss cee oo CHBIOW Gciaie oa vata. sew d wees Swansboro, N. C. W. K. Jacobson.............. Boaulors 0/6040 co secre neges Washington, N.C.
SWAOM WROU ds fhe cee es cai. MROWAR 5.5, cis at as bec dhe ca eae & Edenton, N. C. Bi Dd WATT in Vine A Wkba kon bd oe STATON: is xalewiieings daneres cake New Bern, N.C.
32H: Robinvon co. cu es Bronawitie: ccs hee ois eee Supply, N.C ARG VOR ice ose bien) Mal, CORTON gies s64 ks enn bales Sakaka New Bern, N.C.
J2¥. Somebaet ness 6 edie BIPUnewWitk © occ ho iaw ag Pi Seek Seaside, N.C. Mi TAB OOB Ng 5 hie sie bpd oek POT GIR IR < i on shi chs pine Durant’s Neck, N. C.
SOUR TOM Ons 55 08 be es 2p PROMS WIR Scab as wh 5 See ewe on Supply, N.C. Mejels PAROS 6. «:5'0 Corey «ois ware POD: via We KP ar ees haan Trenton, N.C.
oe We BOMAGEE es SS Sith. DOSLOREG a4 HW ER van a eibite SURO a oe Ocean, N. C. The IONIC sis spice 5 ake soils OTUOTOL, 60 Ge dadainlis newandauarewes Lupton, N. C.
= GOES A) 2 2 See es, Ce i OMUOT OG Ch. ih swivigdlioins dvsms she aen Beaufort, N. C. W. J. Smithwick.............Beaufort ........ R. No. 2, Blount’s Creek, N. C.
Ce Pe Oy race does vate CARUOROE 67 Sig iis! s\sinis so 4 bya, ge ae’ Beaufort, N. C. eT: Mmithwiok .si5x6 o's decks Beaufort. ».2..3 24. R. No. 2, Blount’s Creek, N. C.
UPR J Sc 1) RR aR eGR Perquimans 22. .c dsc ciewecesees Hertford, N.C. Sie WV ODEON 05.5 idiigs 400 05 ale o FONG Ais sie oliod'e Scuwlea Meas He Trenton, N.C
W, E. J0ness coc Caemed ees’ PRTC 6s o)6 Pics y elk eis celsie wanes Pamlico, N.C. Jesse J. Wickim............. DCMI ONG oes i i4 HAR Belhaven, N. C.
Dy Te: War Acs: ie a says. ass CMMMER Tc het ie es eS ee New Bern, N. C. ye ge FS 4 SEN Nien mre ba HO WON: 5 caits to ooo (Abe wee eeN Edenton, N. C.
J. Leon Williams............ RPA V OR 0 sie biewicid baer ce.y sia New Bern, N. C. FPR Cara wane. cies 66 hkus Ba ae Ree y Oe eee eee eee Mesic, N.C
Walter Goodwin ....... seg, bs OALUOPOLE 4. c4.als s'v.g vos ce eeirn ee mie Lupton, N.C. George H. Lupton............ OME ren OT HESS os Fo We Lupton, N.C.
Ae Wer MAN Sta) oe. ARMM VINEE Beis iere a 10s ois 6 nlegin Vien sk ae Oxford, N. C. Wg Me CROOOWN Ss os ee veh bece CORUORE s BNE is en Sea eee Lupton, N.C
Wa Rye ew Othe is vce sas cans hg CROWN, s oiwkctioivise « 0\e:s A blest’o!gas Wale Edenton, N. C. Biden - WLM yess: aly Vn's) 4 0's POM ONE  PP re ee BEN Washington, N. C.
Wi Bj GhenOlel, 465 ee ocak, oe oe eae Beaufort, N.C. JOST WAAR Sos sons 5 Hoes ie oT rete Sey) tee Harker’s Island, N. C.
Thos, Daniele: si. els canis vs GCFAVOD: «250555 SNe vine,oce dine Gre we New Bern, N.C. Bey TRAPPE So ee vice cuban TEU hoes rigsih's cans Marshallberg, N. C.
Milford W. Haynes.......... Hdgecombe ........scesesseaeees Tarboro, N. C. BEEP MEDONGI GN 5 5's: 's s,s eisig:d ¥ pyib.dle’p SaeENE Gk a oto a eae k ee Washington, D.C.
Me La NVATH «sas akan ny 66 eo Carteret ni. iis b Sas semaines Morehead City, N. C. W. McDonald Lee....... ee ees he eee ee Richmond, Va.
“ -" Epon vi k cases Oa eqn oe , . : : : : : ; carrer x o Many of the delegates who were unable to attend the Convention
3. DMN sss veccbo ac Onslow aS Uy Sess Minuet ace biate Swansboro, N. C. wrote letters of regret and told of their interest in the fishing industry.
Wee UR cas va ccth on CAFENSt oi ereencesesseeses Marshallberg, N. C. The following letters will illustrate the sentiment that has been aroused
E. M. Koonce......... Oepice CODMTOMR Haat eR CERI nt Jacksonville, N. C. throughout a large portion of the State in regard to the protection of
Jordan Carawan ....... enw GPO OD: Wann Ghs chd hp areas tate aes Mesic, N. C. } our fisheries:
J. W. Lancaster......... 5 4p RbaeE ROI Str bee ts ethane. ee Supply, N.C CHARLES A. ARMSTRONG,
WB Waia ds dos Scale ORMEW: Sars Fes dyes Peidid Hubert, N. C. ATTORNEY AND COUNSELLOR aT Law.
By ss ALIN choad a Va lckew t OMMIOW 5 oh buc so sairas es 5 ese s tee . Hubert, N. C. Troy, N. C., November 21, 1911. .,
Vession Simpson ............ APH ROE Si he ses bk cinta Smyrna, N. C JosepH Hype Pratt, Ph.D., Chapel Hill, N. C.
Hellen Brat 6 '4.-0% oe ba Shed CRBVED es. CU ee iver ees New Bern, N.C. My Dear Sm:—Yours of the 18th to hand. The subject matter of your
I FAN RESO PODEOD sali Pes caidcth oes UPBVOR iia shes ctis Opes hated New Bern, N.C. letter is of vital interest to the citizens of our State, and their thanks are
| Me TB hss Poke cheat ARTERIES sis eke oun tay seen Morehead City, N. C. due the Geological Survey for the interest taken in the matter by that body.
i
ian
|| a
i

 

 

: J iy SRE . ~ — = —

 
 

Ab THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

You are quite right in your statement that legislation that tended for con-
servation was met, fought and defeated by and for purely local interests.

I'll be very glad to attend the convention if matters of business do not turn
up to prevent.

With kind regards, I remain,

Faithfully yours, Cuas. A. ARMSTRONG.
ASHLEY HORNE. CHARLES W. HORNE.
ASHLEY Horne & Son,
MERCHANTS.

CuiaytTon, N. C., November 28, 1911.
Hon. JosepH Hype Prart, Ph.D., State Geologist, Chapel Hill, N. C.

Dear Mr, Prarr:—I have just returned from New York and find your letter
of the 16th unanswered.

I note what you say as to whether or not I can attend and take part in the
proceedings of the convention to be held in New Bern on December 13th
and 14th.

In reply, I wish to say that I stand for everything that you have men-
tioned in your letter. I feel an interest in the conservation in which you
speak. In other words, I represent progress, and stand for the progress of
our State in all her various industries. I represented this class of legislation
in the last Legislature, in which I was a member, and I regret that my in-
fluence was not such as to bring more things to pass for the progress and
good of our State than we did. In fact, my energy in boyhood was for the
betterment of myself and divided with my country. As evidence of this fact
I am today an Appomattox soldier, and the passing of time which has sil-
vered my hair, and the responsibility that has come to me through my
endeavors, I am not certain whether I can be with you on the 13th and 14th

or not. I hardly know one day where I will be called the’ next, either in my
private or public affairs.

I will keep you in mind, and if I can be with you I will do so. However,

I think you can get men who would be of greater influence for your cause
than myself.

With kindest regards and best wishes, I am,
Yours truly, ASHLEY HORNE.

MANUFACTURERS’ CLUB,
HIGH POINT, N. ©.

Hiew Pornt, N. C., November 24, 1911.
Mr. JosepH Hype Pratt, State Geologist, Chapel Hill, N. C.

Dear Sir:—In reply to your invitation of November 16th, beg to say that it
will be my pleasure to be present at the Fish and Oyster Commission to be
held in New Bern, December 13-14. Hoping that I may be able to render
some help to this great interest that means so much to the upbuilding of our
State, Yours in the cause, very truly, J. BE. KimKMAN.

Wiimrineton, N. C., December 11, 1911.

Dear Dr. Prarr:—I thank you for your letter of 28th, notifying me of my
appointment as a delegate to the fish convention at New Bern. I regret that
other engagements will prevent me being present, but hope your meeting
will result in much benefit to the fish industry.

Yours cordially, J. O. CARR.

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 45

HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES U. 8.
COMMITTEE ON
REFORM IN THE CIVIL SERVICE,
WASHINGTON, D. C.

At Duwn, N. C., November 27, 1911.
Dr. JosepH Hyper Pratt, Chapel Hill, N. C.

My Dear Dr. Pratr:—Your kind favor in reference to the fish convention to
be held December 13th and 14th at New Bern, North Carolina, has been
received and noted. In reply I beg to state that I am deeply interested in
this work, and I would be glad to attend the convention, but I will be in
Washington at that time. I hope you will lose no time and spare no efforts
in making this convention a successful one, as it is very important. Our
people of the Cape Fear section and especially those at Fayetteville are very
much interested in reformed fish legislation.

Yours very truly, H. L. Gopwin.

OFFICE OF
A. L. QUICKEL,
ATTORNEY AT Law.

LincotnTon, N. C., November 25, 1911.
Dr. JosepH Hype Prart, State Geologist, Raleigh, N. 0.

Dear Str:—Your favor of the 16th received, asking me to advise you if I
could attend the fish convention at New Bern, December 13-14.

I should like very much to be present and hear the entire subject of pro-
tecting the fishing interests of North Carolina discussed, but on account of the

‘distance I live from the meeting place and other business demands upon my

time, it seems impossible for me to arrange to be present. I hope some

measure for fish protection can be devised that can pass into law and be
respected.

With best wishes in your endeavor, I remain,

Yours very truly, A. L. QuIcKEL,
Representative from Lincoln County.

 

 

Fee eager ar cae ee aoe ae - —_ -
 

46 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

WHAT SHALL WE DO WITH OUR FISHERIES?

 

By Joserpn Hype Prarv.

At the Fisheries Convention which was held in New Bern, December
13, 1911, many subjects appertaining to the fisheries of the State were
discussed, the principal points of which that were taken up at the Con-
vention were as follows:

1. That North Carolina instead of being first in the output of her
fisheries as is warranted by the abundance of her inland waters, which
are peculiarly adapted for the maintenance of commercial fisheries,
now holds eleventh place among the Atlantic and Gulf States.

2. That the ascendency of these States, particularly Virginia, Mary-
land, Connecticut, and Louisiana, has been obtained entirely through
the enfortement of such regulations as would allow a reasonable catch
from their fisheries and would preserve a sufficient part of the fish, so
that the supply of each succeeding year would steadily increase instead
of diminish.

3. That the decrease in the North Carolina fisheries is undoubtedly
due to very heavy fishing of all kinds of apparatus, and the violation of
the laws that have been passed to regulate fishing. This applies to both
fin fish and shell fish.

4. That the most noticeable decrease in North Carolina fin fish has
been among her more valuable fish, such as shad and herring.

5. That the oyster industry of North Carolina is at its lowest ebb,
and as stated by Honorable McDonald Lee, Oyster Commissioner of
Virginia in an article on the oyster industry, in regard to the production
of oysters, “North Carolina is hardly in the running.”

6. That instead of the fish industry being worth from $7,000,000 to
$8,000,000 per year, it is worth less than $2,000,000 per year.

7. That instead of North Carolina supplying her home consumption
with fish and oysters she is obliged at the present time to obtain a con-
siderable proportion of them from other States. This perhaps expresses
the awful decrease in the fisheries of the State better than anything else.
We should not only be able to produce all the fish and oysters needed by
the people of North Carolina, but should have a very large export trade.
The following from the Wilmington Morning Star, of December 2,
1911, emphasizes this condition:

The fish, oyster and game problem of North Carolina demands serious
attention and vigorous remedies for their restoration. We hang our heads
in shame when Wilmington restauranteurs advertise Norfolk oysters, while
the once famous New River oyster has practically disappeared from the
market.

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 47

.

However, our Myrtle Grove and Stump Sound oysters would be the equal
of New River’s if the State were to do the right thing by the industry. Fine
oysters and fish, from Currituck to Brunswick, could be produced in such

abundance as not only to supply North Carolina, but other States. Intelli-
gent legislation must be substituted for selfish interests. When Wilmington

buys oysters from Norfolk and soft shell crabs from Baltimore, something
is radically wrong.

There is no doubt that one of the main reasons why the present con-
ditions exist is that our laws are not enforced, and that in many in-
stances fish legislation has been passed purely for local reasons and not
in the interest of the industry as a whole. Just so long as such conditions
exist the majority of the fish counties of the State as a whole will suffer
and on account of the selfishness of a few counties,

8. Another point that was particularly emphasized at the Convention
was that the fisheries of North Carolina belong to the whole State, and
that the citizens of the State at large should be interested in their
preservation and perpetuation.

It is only as the people of the State do begin to realize that the fisher-
‘ies belong to the State and that they all have a right in them, and that
the right to use them should be regulated that the State will be able to
accomplish what is desired. But nothing can be done as long as it is
left to the individual counties and the fisheries question is considered a
local courity or township one. The fisheries of the State ‘can be very
rapidly increased and brought to the point where they should not only
be on a par with the other maritime States, but should exceed them as ig
warranted by the natural conditions existing in eastern North Carolina.

It may be of interest to state what some of the other States have ac-
complished along certain lines in connection with their fishing indus-
tries.

WHAT OTHER STATES ARE DOING WITH THEIR FISHERIES.

In Rhode Island* there were leased last year 5,734.5 acres of bottoms
for oyster cultivation at $10 per acre, and 13,286.5 acres in deeper water

at $5 per acre. This makes a total of $123,777.50 that Rhode Island
received for the rent of her oyster lands.

In Connecticut,+ where the oyster bottoms or lands were sold outright,
there are 74,514 acres listed that are assesséd at $1,073,105.75, which
are taxed like other property.

Alabama has recently passed oyster laws that will regulate the in-
dustry and at the same time make liberal provision for the cultivation
of the oyster. ‘Dr. H. F. Mooret of the United States Bureau of Fish-
eries, has stated that “one of the most valuable assets possessed by the

 

“Report Proceedings Third Annual Convention Nat. Asso. Shellfish Commissioners, p. 27, 1911.
tRe port of Commissioner at Convention Shellfish Commissioners, Boston, 1912.

tReport Proceedings Third Annual Convention Nat. Asso. Shellfish Commissioners, p. 94, 1911.

1

| | |

prone BERTI re era aR ET SLE Te EET I ES ee ee

 

  
 

 

48 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Alabama Oyster Commission is the absolute purity of the water in
which the oysters grow. This section lies in a zone far removed from
any contaminating influences which could possibly defile the oyster
bottoms. The day is not distant when this one feature of the Alabama
situation will be reckoned as a potent factor in the upbuilding of the
industry, and will result in bringing much of the oyster traffic of the
nation to the tidewaters of the State.” The Governor of Alabama* has
interested himself in this industry and in urging passage of the oyster
bill said: “The oyster bottoms owned by Alabama constitute one of our
most valuable assets, and should be properly developed and conserved.
The first annual yeport of the Oyster Commission of Alabama shows
that the State owns 250,000 acres of oyster bottoms which, according to
reliable estimates, should within the next fifteen or twenty years net the
State from rentals many thousands of dollars annually. It is shown
by this report that these oyster bottoms possess unusual advantages,
owing to the fact that the river system of the State brings from the
water-sheds to the tidewaters where the oysters grow the food requisite
for the thrifty growth and the lime necessary for the shell construction.
I would suggest for your consideration the propriety of appropriating
the sum of $15,000, payable in two annual installments for the proper
development and conservation of this important industry, the amount
to be payable whenever in the judgment of the Governor the condition
of the treasury will warrant.”

Virginia has perhaps made the greatest progress of any of the south-
ern States in regard to its oyster industry, and probably also its fin fish
industry. In regard to the former it last year turned over to the State
treasury $81,000 as the State’s income from the oyster industry.

Louisiana has just passed adequate laws for the protection of its
oysters and provided for their cultivation, and last year Louisiana pro-
duced 1,966,677 bushels of oysters, valued at $1,311,118. .

New Jersey has been able, through a competent Commission, to build
up its oyster industry until last year the value of the oysters produced
from the natural beds was $249,000 and from the cultivated beds
$1,120,000, making a total amount from the fisheries for the past year
of $1,369,000. ee

As we realize from the above what other States are doing, it is enough
to make us hang our heads in shame to have permitted our oyster in-
dustry to become almost a negligible quantity. It is not as though the
State was not in a position to protect and build up its oyster industry,
because this can be done. We have suitable waters in which oysters will
grow very abundantly and of splendid quality, both on the natural rock
and in areas where no oysters now exist, but where they can be culti-

*Report of Proceedings Third Annual Convention Nat. Asso. Shellfish Commissioners, p. 92, 1911

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 49

vated. Our waters are very far removed from any contaminating in-
fluences that exist in so many States, due to the large amount of waste
and sewerage, and the question of the oysters being polluted does not
bother the oystermen of this State. It is a serious problem in many of
the northern States, where there is such a large amount of waste and
sewerage dumped into the harbors along the coast. The pollution of
waters that flow over oyster bottoms in other States has increased the
difficulties of making the oyster industry a success, and yet such States
as Massachusetts, Rhode Island, New York, and New Jersey, have made
the oyster industry a very profitable one.

Experimental work, that has been carried on in North Carolina
waters regarding the cultivation of the oyster, has shown that it is
practical and can be made profitable for the cultivator and for the
State.

It is an undisputed fact amongst those who are thoroughly familiar
with the life history of the oyster, that with the conditions as they exist
in North Carolina it will be absolutely impossible for the natural oyster
rock or bottom to restock itself unassisted. There are two ways in which
the State can assist in the building up of the oyster grounds of the State:
first, by passing adequate legislation regulating the taking of oysters,
the culling of oysters, and restricting the season for taking oysters; sec-
ond, by encouraging the cultivation of oysters on bottoms where no
natural rock exists.

The low ebb to which the oyster industry in North Carolina has
reached is well expressed in the following table:

 

 

 

 

 

Catch of Oysters, 1910-11,
State. Seaney at
|
Bushels. Value.
tiene spins nalicnnutietiipedcbtaam teeta ee tals tt 6,000,006 | Os oS. cet
RR tik cents sii distri chaideenstdadaabes tnllns client bibidna Gat emkind sa idee 3,500,000
TP Dalia hind ccna nighigntctih olisinindadencpagpdetaliinastvee stare aid 121,219 24,243
iain icbkiceitieniee ab ibibires nde lias sewn ibeemencesabheal 1,966,677 1,311,118

 

 

Are we satisfied with the above conditions? We should not be, and
the General Assembly of 1913 should be petitioned and urged to pass
adequate fishery laws that will be State-wide and will protect and build
up our valuable fishing industries.

The fin fisheries are also being rapidly depleted .on account of inade-
quate laws regarding the catching of fish. Undoubtedly the only rem-
edy possible is for the State to establish a Fisheries Commission, which
will have jurisdiction over all the commercial fisheries in the State and

4

 

ln Se a are ee

 

a

aaa
 

 

4

50 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

be given specific power to enforce all laws relating to the fishing in-
dustry; to do away with all obsolete laws, and to make such regulations
as are best suited to the various sections of tidewater North Carolina.
This Commission should be non-political and should employ a capable
and competent man as Commissioner, who has had the experience that
will equip him for handling the problem that now confronts the State.

 
 
 
 
 
  
  
 
   
   
 
 
   
    
    
  
   
 
 
 
 
   
   
 
   
    
  

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 51

INFORMATION OBTAINED BY LEGISLATIVE FISH

COMMITTEE APPOINTED BY THE GENERAL
ASSEMBLY OF 1909 TO INVESTIGATE THE
FISHERIES OF NORTH CAROLINA

COMPILED BY THE STATE GEOLOGIST

INTRODUCTION.

For many years the legislatures of North Carolina have spent much
time and effort in trying to solve the various fish problems which have
been présented to them by representatives from tidewater North Caro-
lina. The members of the General Assembly, having no first-hand
knowledge as to the actual conditions in connection with these fishing
industries, and having to rely entirely on second-hand information and
the squabbles of individuals, felt that the time had come when the law-
making bedy of North Carolina should have some actual data on which
to base what appeared to be much needed legislation. With this idea in
view the following resolution was passed by the General Assembly of

1909:

Resolved by the House of Representatives, the Senate Concurring:

Section 1. That there shall be created a committee of five, three to be
appointed by the Speaker of the House from the members of the House of
Representatives and two by the President of the Senate from the members of the
Senate. Of the three members of the House, one shall be from the western
part of the State, one from the central part of the State, and the third from
the eastern part. The President of the Senate shall appoint one member
from eastern North Carolina and one from the central part of the State,
None of the five members of the committee shall be financially interested in
any of the fisheries.

Sec. 2. This committee shall thoroughly investigate the fisheries of North
Carolina, including fin fish, oyster, clam and other mollusca, crab, lobster,
terrapin, etc., and make a report in the form of a bill to be presented to the
Legislature of 1911, which will embody such legislation as in their judgment
they deem best for the building up of the fisheries of North Carolina.

Sec. 3. In order to facilitate the work of this committee, they are hereby
authorized to request the Commissioner of the U. S. Bureau of Fisheries to
detail one of their experts to sit with the committee during its deliberations.
The committee is further authorized to visit and examine any portion of
the waters of North Carolina which they deem necessary in order to fully
inform themselves upon the existing conditions relating to the fishery in-
dustries. This committee is also further authorized to use the State boat
under the control of the Oyster Commissioner in going from one part of
the rivers and sounds of eastern North Carolina to another. The committee
is also further authorized to call in for consultation the Fish Commissioner,
the Oyster Commissioner, the State Geologist, and any other public servant
 

 

 

 

52 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

that they believe can give them any information of value regarding the
fisheries industries. They are further authorized to sit at some central
point in eastern North Carolina after they have visited what places they
deem necessary for the collecting of information, where delegations of fish-
ermen or representatives of fishermen from various portions of eastern North
Carolina can appear before the committee to give information regarding the
fisheries of the State.

Sec. 4. The committee shall be allowed all their actual expenses in attend-
ing to this work and four dollars per diem while in the actual performance of
their duties, but the per diem shall not be for more than thirty days.

Sec. 5. This act shall be in force from and after its ratification.

Ratified this the 14th day of March, A. D. 1909.

The personnel of the Committee appointed by the General Assembly
of 1909, under a general resolution, was as follows:

W. C. Newland, Lieutenant-Governor and President of the Senate; A. W.
Graham, Speaker of the House of Representatives; Senators E. L. Travis of
the Fourth District, and John A. Barringer of the Twenty-first District;
Representatives R. A. Doughton of Alleghany, Harry Stubbs of Martin, J. H.
Currie of Cumberland, and Dr. H. F. Moore, an expert of the U. S. Bureau
of Fisheries, who was asked to serve as a member of the committee.

The resolution also authorized the Committee to call in for consulta-
tion the Fish Commissioner, the Oyster Commissioner, and the State
Geologist; and under this authority the State Geologist was requested
by the Committee to make the trip with them. The Fish Commissioner
and the Oyster Commissioner were with the Committee during part of
the trip of investigation.

1909 TRIP OF INVESTIGATION.

The information given beyond was obtained at public meetings held
at various places in the tidewater country of the State, the following
itinerary having been carried out:

ITINERARY OF FISH COMMITTEE.

Tuesday, July 6—Assemble at Edenton. Spend the day going up Chowan
River, across the sound to mouth of Roanoke River.

Wednesday, July 7.—Public meeting at Edenton. Fishermen from Pasquo-
tank, Perquimans, Chowan, Gates, Hertford, Bertie, Washington and Tyrrell
counties attended this meeting.

Friday, July 9.—Public meeting at Manteo, Dare County. Trip to Nags
Head.

Saturday, July 10—Sail around Roanoke Island, noting conditions at Ore-
gon Inlet, New Inlet, marshes, etc.

Sunday, July 11—Nags Head.

Monday, July 12.—Meeting at Point Harbor, Currituck County. Fisher-
men in Camden and Currituck counties attended.

Tuesday, July 13.—-Manteo to Stumpy Point, to Long Point and to Hatteras.
Meeting at Hatteras at night.

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HE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 53

Wednesday, July 14.—Informal meeting at Hatteras in morning. These
meetings accommodated the fishermen all along the banks from Ocracoke
Inlet to Cape Hatteras.

Thursday, July 15.—Meeting at Swan Quarter in morning for fishermen and
oystermen from Hyde and parts of Beaufort and Pamlico counties.

Friday, July 16.—Meeting at Washington, Beaufort County.

Saturday, July 17.—Sail from Morehead City to Atlantic, examining Core
Sound and Beaufort harbor.

Monday, July 19.—Meeting at Beaufort. For the fishermen and oystermen
from Carteret and part of Craven counties.

Tuesday, July 20.—Examination of conditions in Carteret County and

Government Laboratory.

Wednesday, July 21—Meeting at New Bern, Craven County.
Thursday, July 22.—Meeting at Jacksonville, Onslow County.
Friday, July 23.—Meeting at Wilmington, New Hanover County.
Saturday, July 24.—Meeting at Southport, Brunswick County.

 
a A A

 

 

 

 

 

54 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

REPORT OF MEETINGS

EDENTON MEETING.
Jury 7, 1909.

The meeting was called to order by the Chairman, Lieutenant-Gov-
ernor Newland, who spoke as follows:

Gentlemen :—We are here in obedience to a resolution passed by the State
Legislature, hoping that we might, after visiting the waters in eastern North
Carolina, make some recommendations to the next Legislature that would
be beneficial to the fishing interests of the State. And I would say that in

obedience to that resolution we are here today. The proceedings of this -

committee will be in the nature of a legislative report, and it is earnestly
requested that every citizen here will give the committee all the information
he has, in’ order that we may be informed. This is your meeting and you
are wanted to talk. We are here to hear you, not for you to hear us, for,
speaking for myself, I know nothing about the fishing interests. I came
here absolutely ignorant and unbiased, and we are here to hear you and to

hear recommendations, and I will now ask Judge Graham to give in detail
the object of this meeting.

This was followed by a speech of Judge A. W. Graham, Speaker of
the House of Representatives, as follows:

Mr. Chairman and Fellow Citizens of Northeastern North Carolina:—There
are some people in North Carolina. who think the fish and oyster interests
are mere local matters and that the great body of the State has nothing to do
with it, and that only such laws should be passed as are recommended and
endorsed by the people of that locality. I am one among those who believe
that we all compose one grand old State; that what is to the interest of the
people of Chowan is likewise to the interest of Granville. We are a great
State. There are many industries. in North Carolina that redound to the
credit of the State, and would reflect much more credit to the State if they
were thoroughly prosecuted. The manufacturing interests are more in the
central part of the State, in which I live; also the mining regions are in the
part where the Lieutenant-Governor lives. The agricultural interests pre-
dominate in our State and are of joint interest to us all. The fishing interest,
which I class second to none of them, is peculiarly the interest of this section
of North Carolina, and it is one in which every true North Carolinian ought
to take a deep interest, because we can not benefit one portion of our State
without all of us receiving some influences that tend to the upbuilding of our
own State.

It has been my fortune, some say misfortune, like every other gentleman
of the committee, to have been a member of the Legislature for many years.

 

 

*In order that the information obtained at the meetings held by this Legislative Committee
should be accurate, competentent stenographers attended all the meettings of the Committee and
transcribed in shorthand all that took place at them. The stenographers accompanying the Com-
mittee were Miss H. M, Berry, of Chapel Hill, N. C., and Miss Sophie D. Busbee, of Raleigh, N.C.

 

[HE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 55

I have listened, with great interest, to the discussions of these oyster and
fish problems by the members of the Legislature from this section, and from
my observation and from the information that I have obtained from the
gentlemen from this section of North Carolina, I believe that you have
within your grasp one of the greatest interests of this State. There is an-
other thing that I have observed, though, and that is that the fishermen are
never agreed among themselves. It is a peculiar fact, and some of you would
be struck with the force of the remark if you could go up to the Legislature
and listen to the discussions of the various matters by the gentlemen com-
posing these committees. But for the fact that they are all so in earnest,
you would think there was a regular circus going on at these committee
meetings. If you attempt to carry out the views of one person about this
matter, in the eyes of another you ruin the fishing interest of North Caro-
lina. That does not take place at one session of the Legislature, but at
absolutely every session. It is very difficult to understand why such a state
of affairs should exist. To the men of the mountains and of the Piedmont
it seems almost inexplicable until you study the question and see that the
same law that would be applicable to one portion of North Carolina would
not work and prove beneficial to the others, and also to realize the fact that
some men in certain portions of a district want very stringent laws passed
in regard to the fishing in North Carolina, and they will advocate the most
stringent law possible, and then at the end of the bill they will have another
clause inserted: “Provided, this does not apply to ..........+... County.”
Every fisherman wants the fishing law to apply to the county in which he does
not live. But, I am glad to say, there seems to be more uniformity of senti-
ment; there seems to have been a broadminded conception of the whole ques-
tion aroused in this part of North Carolina. After these matters were thor-
oughly discussed up there and the committees disagreed among themselves—
and, mark you, that nearly every man on the committee was from this section
of the State—it was thought best by those gentlemen that a commission be
appointed in order to investigate these matters and recommend to the ensuing
Legislature such laws as would be adapted to each section of the State and
would not work an injustice to any.

So, upon a motion of a gentleman from this section, a resolution was pre-
sented authorizing the appointment of this committee, consisting of three
members from the House of Representatives, one from the east, one from the
center, and one from the west, and the Speaker and two members from the
Senate, together with the President of the Senate. That is the reason the
Lieutenant-Governor and myself are here today. I will read this resolution.
(Reads resolution.)

Now, gentlemen, we are here by virtue of that resolution. We are unfortu-
nate in not having the services of Governor Doughton of Alleghany. He isa
man of long experience in the Legislature and, you know, was for a while
Lieutenant-Governor. ~He is detained at home, and we will not have the
benefit of his services. Mr. Currie of Cumberland is here; Senator Travis of
Halifax is here; and Senator Barringer of Guilford will be here today. We
come now with no preconceived ideas in regard to it. We are come with our
minds open and unprejudiced, to talk with you, as brother to brother, be-
cause we are all interested in this matter. We are all now, as it were, in one
great partnership. We want every man in this house whether he is a pro-
fessional man, whether he is a farmer, whether he is a fisherman, or whether
he is an everday laborer, we want you all to feel that you have an interest in

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

56 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

this matter, and to express your views freely to us today. Whatever tends to
build up this grand section of northeastern North Carolina will certainly
redound to the good of our State. We bespeak your hearty codperation by
giving advice and assistance, and if any man presents views that don’t agree
with the views of other gentlemen here, let us have a full and free discussion,
because it is by rubbing together our minds that we will be able to reach some
kind of a conclusion.

If you will take the map of North Carolina, examine and compare these
waters of yours with the waters of Virginia, Maryland and Connecticut, you
will see that we have, perhaps, a greater area that could be rendered profita-
ble, if proper laws were enacted, than any one of these States; but, unfortu-
nately, I do not know what the reason is, last year Virginia made $68,000 clear
out of her fish and oysters; with not one-fourth of the territory that you have
here, Louisiana cleared $18,000; and Connecticut, with not one-fourth the
territory that you have, made $38,000, while North Carolina went $8,000 in
debt. Is it in the administration of the law? Is it for want of proper laws?
What is the cause of these things?

I will say, though, that that loss was not in the conduct of the fish part,
because we made a slight profit in the administration of the fish laws in
North Carolina, but in the administration of the oyster laws in North Caro-

lina we are now between $8,000 and $10,000 in debt, while other States have
reaped a harvest.

Chairman:—The Committee will now be glad to hear from any one
personally.

Mr. Pruden:—Our people are not given to much speaking. We
always find it very difficult to get those who are deeply interested and
well informed to express themselves in person. I know a great many
gentlemen here have views about this matter and it will be only neces-
sary to get them to express those views in order to be informed. I am
not a fisherman myself, nor the son of a fisherman. I know there are
many men here who are much more practical than I, who ought to be
heard from on this subject. I know one gentleman who has prepared a
short paper which embodies the views of myself and our people.

Mr. Frank Wood is then recognized and reads his paper as follows:

A thorough understanding by your committee of conditions in the fishing
industry is greatly desired by us, and we gladly offer any information we
have to aid you to that end. The frequent appeals to the State for legisla-
tion for the protection of the industry is as distasteful and burdensome to us
as it can be to the Legislature, and, with a view to avoiding that hereafter,
two committees of practical fishermen met at Morehead in 1906 and 1908 and
labored earnestly to agree upon a measure that would be acceptable to all; each
side made concessions and the recommendations presented are the best obtain-
able. The fishing industry is of great value to our country, and its maintenance
of vital importance, not only because it is one of our chief sources of income,
but because the shad and rock furnish a rare and valuable food supply to
those who are able to pay high prices for delicacies at a season when they
are rare and in best demand, and the herring supplies a good and wholesome
food to our own people and our neighbors at prices lower than any other food

FEE

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 57

of equal value can be bought for. These fish are all migratory and come into
our waters to spawn, and here they find at the head of our sounds and rivers
ideal conditions; they can not spawn in cold salt water, and must reach the
warm fresh water they find here. The legislation we sought for has been to
open the inlets and middle of the sounds and rivers, that these mfgratory fish
may reach these waters, where our national government has liberally aided
nature in maintaining the supply of shad. The recommendations of the
fisherman provide that in all sections the fishing shall be confined to certain
distances from the shore and the inlets and middle water be left open and
free from obstruction. There was no difficulty in agreeing upon these recom-
mendations, except at a few points in front of the inlets and the narrow parts
of Croatan Sound. As can be seen on the charts, old and new, these points
are directly in the line of passage of the fish to the spawning grounds and
are the most important points to be kept open. A very few nets can close
them, and to permit fishing there will be to grant special privileges to a few
and practicaHy destroy the industry for the many. To these points we ask
your special attention.

When the Legislature decided to postpone fish legislation until your investi-
gation could be made, we did not expect any further consideration would be
given to the matter, but a bill was passed, just before the close of the session,
without our knowledge or approval, which repealed the enforcing clause of
the law and practically nullified all the legislation we have affecting the in-
dustry. The forbidden territory is definitely marked by the Vann law, and
that law provided that nets set beyond the limits could be removed by the
Fish Commissioners. But now it must be proven in a court of justice that
the net is beyond the limit (a self-evident fact), and then the offender can be
fined only fifty dollars, while the privilege in many cases would be worth
thousands of dollars to him.

If this committee can aid in the enforcement of the law until the enforcing
clause of the Vann bill can be reinstated, it will be of great service to us.

To further show that our efforts have been for the advancement of the
general fishing industry, I will ask you to note that one section of the recom-
mendations curtails our time for fishing, limits our territory, forbids the
taking of certain small fish, and forbids taking sturgeon at all for several
years. All these recommendations were made by the fishermen, to maintain
and replenish the supplies of fish, as it has become evident to us that the
business is overdone and we will lose all unless changes are made.

Q. When did the Vann bill go into operation?

A. Two years ago, practically. We had no way of enforcing it until
the Fish Commission was created. Since then the law has been en-
forced. We have what legislation that is of vital importance to us.
What we need is the strict enforcement of the laws that are in exist-
ence.

Q. You have been speaking of shad; how about the herring?

A. They have not been diminishing as the shad have. The shad are
caught by gill nets and not pound nets.

Q. How is the herring caught?

A. They are caught in the upper waters in small nets.

Q. How is it done in Croatan Sound?

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58 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

 

 

A. They do not fish for herring in Croatan Sound. They fish with
5-inch mesh.

Q. I notice in reading the paper you stated that a violator of the law
could not be stopped until the fishing season was practically over; that
there was no redress until the next term of court?

A. He can go on and fish by simply paying his fine of $50. We had
a law which made it the duty of the Fish Commissioner to remove any
net fished in violation of the law. A bill was passed at the recent Legis-
lature just before the close of the session, which practically repealed the
Vann bill by omitting the enforcing clause of the law.

Mr. Travis recommends using injunction in cases of this kind, which
suggestion was well received by Mr. Pruden. :

Q. I understand your idea is that you have plenty of fish legislation,
if it were properly enforced, and you had the power of enforcing the
laws already enacted?

A. I think the laws have been enforced since we had the Fish Com-
mission. 3

Q. You think, then, you have sufficient legislation to protect the fish?

A. The Vann bill was satisfactory until practically rendered void.
We deal entirely with the migratory fish and the trouble has been the
conflict between the different sections, the people from Croatan and oth-
ers who have fish merchants buying salt-water fish all the season through
and distributing them through the State of North Carolina. They do
not want to be interfered with and come under the Fish Commission.

Q. Is it your idea that all the fishing interests of North Carolina
should come under the jurisdiction of the Fish Commission ?

A. I believe it ‘would be beneficial to all sections of the State if the
Fish Commissioner himself could study the conditions and advise what
is proper for each section. ;

Q. What per cent of the people of your county are engaged in the
fishing industry ? ;

A. Our county is largely fringing on Chowan and Roanoke rivers and
Albemarle Sound. Everybody, nearly, is directly or indirectly connected
With fishing. There are about 1,171 nets on the Chowan.

Q. Is there a tax on each net?

A. On each pound net, $1; on each gill net, 10 cents on every hundred
yards. We asked the Legislature that they let us bear the burden of the
Fish Commission, so that it will not be any tax upon the State at large.
We felt that the industry was going down and that we would be com-
pensated for the additional tax.

Q. How would you bear that except by taxation?

A. There is no other way. We suggested this way that we might not

burden the other revenue of the State.

Q. Suppose it were possible to induce the general government to join
North Carolina and cut a new inlet at Kittyhawk or Nag’s Head, or
some place along the banks, where the volume of water of Albemarle
Sound could escape into the ocean and thereby provide another means
of ingress for the shad and other fish. Do you think it would improve
conditions in the Albemarle?

A. It would give more salt water. The Roanoke brings down more
water than. all others combined, and it is due to that that we have the
fish at all because they are attracted by the stream of fresh water flow-
ing into the sea. More spawning shad are taken at the Capehart fishery
than anywhere else.

Q. Do the spawning shad enter the Cape Fear or Neuse?

A. In more limited quantities.

Q. Do the shad move up and down the coast during the year?

A. It is a question with the Bureau of Fisheries as to where the shad
stay the year through.

Q. The benefit of the Vann law, as I understand it, was to keep open
the channel at the inlet and on up the sound so that the migratory fish
could proceed up to the breeding ground. Now that permits you to
fish without any restriction at all within a certain distance of the shore.
There is no restriction as to the number of nets that can be put in. What
I want to get at is where is the actual breeding ground where the shad
deposit their eggs?

A. The Capehart fisheries furnish about 8 per cent of the eggs that
go to the hatchery.

Q. Do they spawn a great deal up Chowan River?

A. If the fish is not caught it is apt to go on up Chowan River. If
we stop a shad here we are stopping him from his spawning ground.
All obstructions put in are more or less stoppage.

Q. Are the spawning grounds fished so closely that they are destroyed
while depositing their eggs, making a difference as to where they are
caught? Is there any plan by which the amount of fishing done within
the actual spawning ground could be limited?

A. You could say that those nets could not be fished so close to-
gether.

Q. Do they deposit their eggs out in the middle of the stream, or do
they deposit them mostly along the shores?

A. They deposit mostly along the shores. It was thought that the
fishermen who obtained fish for the hatchery were fishing in violation of
law, but the fishermen had a meeting and consented that the United
States force should fish anywhere for fish for the hatchery.

Q. Should not a shad be protected in his bed and if so, what protec-

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60 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

tion would be practicable and fair to the people engaged in the fishing
industries ?
A. In our consideration of it we have felt the fishermen should con-
fine themselves to the shores and leave the middle grounds to the fish.
Q. It is your opinion that if these nets are permitted to be fished
2,000 yards from shore still leaves sufficient spawning ground for the
shad?
A. I think so. penis
Q. I understood from your reply to Judge Graham’s suggestion of
cutting another inlet to be that there would be danger of admitting so
much salt water as to render the waters of the sound unfit? ©
A. They would have to go up higher. In the spring larger volumes
of fresh water come down.
Q. Do they require absolutely fresh water in which to breed ?
A. They require absolutely fresh water. ‘
Q. Do you have any settled conviction as to whether or not two inlets
would probably attract more fish than one?
A. I have not.
Q. Would it be better to protect the inlets you have than to make a
new one? :
A. I don’t know that that would affect our fishing interests.
Q. What is the width of those inlets? :
A. Oregon Inlet is about three-fourths of a mile wide.
Q. What is the depth of Oregon Inlet.
A. Oregon about ten feet.
Q. Does it seem to be tending to close now?
A. Yes; four years ago it was half a mile wide.

DR. MOORE.

Mr. Chairman, Gentlemen, and Ladies:—I came here to listen rather than to
speak. It seems to me that the questions which this committee has to poe
sider are those which relate very largely to local conditions, and consequently
the information should come at first hand from those who have the knowledge
of such conditions. We might deal in generalities in connection with the
fisheries. The importance of the work of course you all understand. I think
the committee undoubtedly already appreciates that there are quite a number
of interests involved in this question, that they conflict more or less, that you
will not find that the same views are held by men who fish with pound nets as
those who fish with seines or stake nets or drift nets. I for one hope those who
are engaged in the fisheries by these several methods will state their bie
fully, so that we can understand just what conditions arise in each locality
that is visited by the committee. I hope that all the fishermen with whom
we come into contact will appreciate that it is absolutely impossible to say
every one. What it will probably be necessary for the committee to do is to

compromise the matter; to deal with the circumstances in such a way yar a
will be of the greatest benefit to the largest number of persons. Just wha’

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 61

this compromise will be, of course, depends very largely upon what the com-
mittee discovers in the tour of inspection along the coast and also upon the
freedom and directness with which the fishermen along the coast will express
their views to the committee. I think, Mr. Chairman, it would be highly
inadvisable at this time to attempt to make any general statements regarding

the fisheries. I shall be glad to hear from anybody who has anything to say in
regard to these matters.
MR. LEARY,

Mr. Chairman:—I have listened with a great deal of interest and pleasure
to Mr. Wood’s paper. As I understand it, the State has the same jurisdiction
that the national government has, which is about three miles outside, and the
relative sizes of the bodies of water is very small. Some years ago there
was some correspondence in the newspapers about having the nets removed
from these inlets and it was thought at. that time they headed off the fish and
caused them to go out into the ocean again. Of course nature impels and
compels the fish to come up into the higher streams and waters to spawn;
but, if they are headed off either from the inside or outside, we could not hope
to get them up the stream, and it occurs to me that the most important thing
is the fact that the fish be able to get up into the higher streams, because it
is of so much interest not only to the citizens of Dare County, but to the
citizens of every county through which the streams go, and the other citizen
is entitled to have his interests protected, and the only way you can protect
him is by Mr. Wood’s suggestion of keeping the waters open. We have a
large expanse of water in the State, but we only have a few small bodies of
water and these ought to be protected. These inlets are so small and there
are so few of them and the resolution should lie in that direction.

Q. In what position are those nets fished on the outside?

A. As to the length of them or how they are used, perhaps the Com-
missioner can tell something about it.

Q. Mr. Wood, have you any views in regard to outside fishing?

A. Nothing except what I observed myself a few years ago. I under-
stand there is some fishing on the outside for sturgeon and porpoise. I
don’t know of any pound nets on this coast.

Mr. Meekins :—There is no fishing on the North Carolina coast north
of Ocracoke, except a few sturgeon nets. About ten years ago the blue
fish visited our coast twice a year, in September and October, and in
April and May, and they then used a net about 125 yards long and
5 1-4 inch mesh, and they would go out and set that net and let it drift
and catch the fish, but for the last eight years there has been no such
fishing and the only nets now are drift nets. With the exception of two
pound nets at Cape Hatteras, for the last two years they have been fish-
ing there but with very little stakes. As a matter of fact, you can not
fish pound nets on the North Carolina coast from Ocracoke to the Vir-
ginia line.

Q. Practically no fishing on the outside except the large nets for
sturgeon?

A. Yes.

 

 
62 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. When do they stop fishing for sturgeon on the coast?

A. The sturgeon fishing was quite an industry here. For the last
several years we have practically had no sturgeon at all. Perhaps his
statement in connection with it shows that they were fishing out there
and headed the sturgeon off. :

Q. Would you advocate an entirely closed season for five years?

A. I can not answer that question.

MR. PRIVOTT.

In view of what has been said or read in the paper prepared by Mr. Wood
about the passage of this bill by the last Legislature, I feel that in justice to
myself I ought to make some little explanation. There was a committee ap-
pointed by the Governor to meet at Morehead last year. That convention
met and made recommendations, a copy of which I have in my hands. I told
the people all last fall that the only thing I could try to do would be to carry
into effect the recommendations of that committee. One of the members from
the committee, who was sent from this county, came into my office on Satur-
day afterfioon and went over the Vann bill with me, and said: “Now, there
is no change in the Vann bill except to open up one-third of Albemarle Sound
and the other sound down to the inlet and to make some little changes down
at the inlet,” and asked me if I would not do what I could to get the recom-
mendations of that committee enacted into a law. I went to the Legisla-
ture and Dr. Pratt had drawn into a bill all the recommendations of that
pill. That bill, after it got through the hands of the Fish Committee, Dr.
Pratt did not know it himself. Every recommendation that was made for
the Legislature was cut out of that bill. It simply left a few sections that
were not cut out and applied to a few of the waters that did not affect the
lower counties. Knowing that the people of this county wanted the Albe-
marle Sound opened up; knowing that there had been some complaint last
spring about fishing for the hatchery; knowing that they had made a recom-
mendation about that; and knowing that would be important, I took these
recommendations out of the Dr. Pratt bill that had not been objected to by
the other members of the Legislature and the Fish Committee and put them
into a bill, which was passed. Now, the bill that was passed, every word of
it, is recommended by that convention at Morehead. Unfortunately, they
left off the enforcing clause of the Vann bill. Why, I am sure I don’t know.
The members of this committee know about it. I never knew at all that the
enforcing clause was interfered with. Some had intimated that the people
of Dare County had bought me up not to enforce that, and I believe the mem-
bers of the Legislature know how earnestly I fought for the Dr. Pratt bill.

Judge Graham:—In justice to Mr. Privott I ought to make a state-
ment as Speaker of the House, that there was no man in the Legisla-
ture who exhibited greater interest in the welfare of his section of the
State than Mr. Privott. I see the Hon. L. L. Smith, former represen-
tative from Gates. I would be glad to hear from him.

MR. SMITH.

I am not surprised to hear Judge Graham speak of me as having
knowledge on this subject. The people in my county are interested in

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 63

the fishing industries, not as a means of making a living, but as an
article of food. it is the most wonderful provision of nature almost
that I can imagine to look at the map and to think how these waters

were distributed and every body of water ought to be protected.
Q. How far up Chowan River do they catch shad?

A. They catch them up to Bennett’s Creek.

Q. Have you noticed any diminution in the amount of fish that are
caught ?

A. The people complain, but it was a little better last spring. At
the mouth of these streams the herring go up more than the shad.

Q. Do they catch shad there every year?

A. Yes; some every year, but the supply is diminishing rapidly. Our

little town used to be supplied every summer with sturgeon, but for the
past five years none have been seen.

CAPTAIN LUPTON.

I would like to give my knowledge of sturgeon fishing. The inlet at
Hatteras that you people all suppose is blocked up with sturgeon nets
has not a sturgeon net there. There is no fishing down on the coast
They have disappeared in numbers beyond anything that you could ~
pect. A few years ago there were numbers of boats bringing in quanti-

ties of sturgeon, but today they have disappeared’ all along the coast.
The sea fishing is done mostly out of the jurisdiction of the State. I
don’t want you gentlemen to think that my people on the coast are en-
tirely to blame. The scarcity of sturgeon in your water is not due to
the fact that the inlets are blocked up, for they are not.

Q. What would be your idea of a law for a closed season of five years?

A. I would not suggest any closed season. There are people who are
looking to that for a livelihood just as much as the herring and shad in
this sound. When a man can’t find a fish in the rivers and along the
beaches and he has the nerve to go into the Atlantic and fish, why I sa
let him have it. Bios .

Q. How many people are engaged along the coast in sturgeon fishing?
A. Not more than fifteen.

Q. What was the catch of sturgeon in these waters last spring?

A. Sturgeon fishing is practically nothing in North Carolina.

Q. I notice in the report of the government for 1902 the catch of
sturgeon in North Carolina was 134,125 pounds. You say it amounts
to practically nothing now? What would be your idea, Mr. Meekins
as to any legislation for the protection of sturgeon fishing in ikaw
waters? ;

A. I think the proper idea would be to restrict the fishing for stur-
geon as was recommended by the Morehead Committee.

 
a

 

 

64 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. How many counties were represented at that Convention ?

A. It is given in the report. : ne
Q. Why did the recommendation provide for the liberation of stur-

geon under five feet and not for those over?

A. It was thought that those over were of much more value and there

was a kick against getting those past.

Q. If it was the purpose to protect and increase the sturgeon, _—,
not liberate the large ones which produce the greater abundance of eggs?

A. The effect would be better for increasing the sturgeon. The stur-
geon are incidentally caught and they want the. privilege of marketing
these while prohibiting a man from going out and fishing specially for
sturgeon. The rational plan would be to stop it entirely. The sturgeon
that are caught incidentally are caught in pound nets, but when so
caught you have to hook him with a harpoon to keep him from tearing

the net, and when so caught he will not live.
Dr. Moore :—I would like to inquire of those who are here, who have

in the past five years? (Makes count.)

gon 0 uate we Aen the records of the catch of thirty-five
sturgeon in the last five years. Of these eighteen were caught 7 a oe
in a regular sturgeon net and two in a pound net. Of these ot a a
were reported, were they caught in pound ‘nets or were they caught in

ial sturgeon nets?
ee ace sturgeon in five years caught in pound nets. Of
course a full roe sturgeon is a pretty valuable fish, but it would sPpees
that the catch in all the pound nets which we probably have er
here is practically insignificant. I would like to have an monet a
opinion as to the advisability of having an absolute closed season in

inland waters.

A. This can not be done with those caught in the pound nets.

Q. Would you have any objection to having a closed evanon for five

years? es
A. It would be best to remain as it 1s.
Mr. Wood:—When you fish for sturgeon with sturgeon nets cas ge
reduced and in 1895 it was estimated that there was $50,000 worth o

sturgeon sold here from town to the coast.
there has been little fishing for sturgeon in sturgeon nets.

Dr. Moore:—In the fisheries on the Great Lakes I was rather sur-

prised to have the statement made that comparatively few sturgeon had
There was a time on the Great Lakes

lue and so many were taken that they

been caught in the pound nets.
when the sturgeon were of little va

hauled them on the beach and could only dispose of them by burning
them. The question has arisen in my mind as to whether,
geon are more abundant, they would not prove destructive.

The last five or six years

if the stur-

—————

a ae

ee

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 65

Mr, Shepard:—There is one other thing; Mr. Privott’s recommen-
dation he spoke of affidavit by person. That would be a mistake. It
takes too long. I think this would cover it more promptly; that the Fish

Commissioner and his deputies are hereby empowered to remove, ete.
(Reads from Morehead Convention report.)

RESOLUTION INTRODUCED BY J. OC. B. EHRINGHAUS.

Resolved, That it is the sense of this meeting that the enactment of a law

prohibiting the shipping of oysters out of the State, except barrel stock,
would be to the best interests of the industry.

CAPTAIN WHITE, A PRACTICAL OYSTERMAN,

Q. What would have been your condition or others if such a law had
been passed ?

A. When you stop oysters from going out of this State in the shell
you kill the whole business. Last season I worked up until the middle
of December and oysters that were worth 50 to 60 cents per bushel I
sold for 15 and 25 cents. After the 15th of December I caught oysters
and carried them to Virginia, and by that means I supported my family
and paid license for the privilege of catching oysters. I could not make
enough selling oysters at home to pay the State for the privilege of
catching oysters. I heard one gentleman this morning suggest making
a new inlet at Nag’s Head. The greatest thing the State could do for the
benefit of the fish and oyster industry would be to deepen the water at
Oregon Inlet. If that swash inside the inlet was dredged out it would
let more salt water come in, it would give our waters more active
water, which is the greatest pullback to our waters. States north of
us have the advantage of deep, broad inlets, that floods the water in and
keeps it going quick and that carries food to the oysters and supports
them. I believe also it would cause more fish to come in our sounds,
shad and herring, especially. But, in regard to stopping the oysters
from going down the sound, I believe it would be best to stop the oyster
business entirely. In other words, it would be dead already when you
stop them from going out of the sound. We only have a few packing
houses in this State, and when we have no boats coming to take the
oysters out, the packing houses are not justified in working.

Q. Where were the oysters shipped from Belhaven? Did they go to
the canneries?

A. The oysters are shipped out in buckets. Most of them were used
in the interior part of this State last season. Seasons heretofore they
have shipped oysters to Baltimore and Norfolk.

ERIE gene ee ee ee eee
 

}

  
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
  
  

 

66 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Afternoon Session.

Q. What do you think would be the best law to pass in order to pro-
tect the fish and thereby increase the number of fish?

A. One thing I think is a great damage and that is the people fishing
drift nets clean across the sound. For the last five or six years we have
not been catching many shad. This last gone year it has been better,
but nothing like it used to be, and we would be mighty glad if it could
be kept open one-third of the way from the inlet, giving everybody the
privilege to fish on each side, but keep one-third open. In regard to the
sturgeon nets, I think everybody would be perfectly willing to have the
20 yard nets, but the long drift nets make a total sweep as they go.

Q. If you were to fish the short gill nets now would you catch any-

thing?

A. If,the length of the nets were cut down it would amount to prac-
tical prohibition of fishing.

Q. Suppose you were permitted to fish small nets, don’t you think
you would catch any sturgeon for a while? Some gentleman said you
could get rid of them without harpooning them.

A. That is not true.

Q. Is the spawning season of the shad and sturgeon the same?

A. No.

Q. Where do the sturgeon spawn?

A. I do not know where they spawn here, but they did spawn on
gravelly bottoms in the rivers.

Q. How would it do to pass a law prohibiting the fishing for sturgeon
after the shad nets are taken out?

A. I don’t know.

Q. Do you get many ‘small sturgeon in your pounds?

A. No great. quantity.

Judge Graham:—I would like very much to hear from Mr. Capehart.
(Gone to Hertford.) I would like to ask Captain Bond to give us his
views.

CAPTAIN BOND.

I know one thing: We had better open up the sound; something is
the matter below.

Q. Do you think that is due to the obstruction in the inlets? ;

A. Yes, and another thing is that the facilities are greater for catching
fish than ever before. ao

Q. How much has been the increase in dutch nets within the past five
years?

A. I don’t think any, taking it as a whole.

PE EE a saa ING. gUereUeaERNACE

ears eS 5

<<

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 67

Q. Was there an increase in the taking of eggs at the hatchery begun
after the Vann law was enacted ?

A. Yes,

Q. Have there been more violations of the law in regard to keeping
the open-way for the passage of fish from the inlets since the enforcing
provision of the Vann bill was left out?

A. It was so late in the season that it did not affect us this year.

CAPTAIN LUPTON.

We have had some nets removed in the lower sounds; some in Chowan
river, but the people as a whole here, as well as everywhere else, when
they realize they have got to do right they are really glad to do it. But
now to take out that clause out of the Vann bill and have me sent out
by my Chief to enforce the law, you had just as well lower my boat and
say, Captain, go to the West Indies, Now, the only thing in my judg-
ment that the Committee can do as regards to fishing in that part of the
sound covered by the Fish Commission is to reinstate that, and as for
the Vann bill, I agree with my Chief, that it was the wisest bill ever
passed. The late law that was passed I don’t know nor never found
out who was the author of the bill. What we want, gentlemen, is to
give us power to enforce the law. We have law enough; enforcement is
what we need. That class of fishermen found by our Saviour on Galilee
has long since passed in their checks, and you will find on our sounds our
fishermen just fishing for fish.

Now, gentlemen, I must recommend no change, only to reinstate that
enforcing clause embodied in the Vann bill and enable us to do our
duty. 5

Q. What suggestions have you to make as to Roanoke Sound?

A. Well, that river or that sound is closed up for the reason that there
is no law by which we can move or take any nets from that sound, and
for two years only 30 feet passway has been left on the main thorough-
fare. At all seasons of the year, and every spring there is a run of
shad through that sound. The biggest haul of fish I know of this year
was by Mr. Joe Hayman and was 1,900 fish at one time. The bulk
of those was caught from nets stretching across Roanoke Sound.

Q. What would be your idea of leaving a certain portion of all
the streams, sounds, and rivers unobstructed by any kind of net?

A. Is that in the Vann bill?

Q. I don’t think it is. I think it was recommended at Morehead
City.

Chairman:—I see Mr. Woodard and would like to hear from him.

 

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

68 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

MR. WOODARD.

I think the sound should be partly left open all the way. The Vann
bill as we had it originally was all we wanted. From the inlets clear
up to the heads of the rivers should have a free channel left open.

Q. Don’t you think that some restriction should apply to Roanoke
Sound ?

A. First, the inlets should be protected, and this should apply to all
the streams all the way up.

Chairman :—Are there any further remarks to be made? Any infor-
mation that you desire?

A. I think all the inlets inside and outside ought to be protected.
There has been some report that it was recommended that all the set
nets and pound nets should be taken out by the 5th of April. If that
law should pass in our county, Tyrrell, it would do us a harm. We
‘want the time extended beyond the 5th of May.

Q. Was there any increase in the catch of fish in Tyrrell County this

ear?

4 A. Yes; a good increase. Last year it was some better than this
year for blue fish and shad. Shad fell right smart below this year.

Q. Was there any increase in herring?

A. I think they increased some, too. ;

Q. What effect do you think the building of this bridge is going to
have upon the fish? 2

A. I have always thought it would ruin the shad fishing.

Q. What are your reasons? aad
A. My reason is, where it crosses at Tunis, before the building of

the bridge the shad went beyond Tunis, but after the bridge crossed the
shad do not go by.
Dr. Moore:—I don’t believe the bridge will have a very serious
effect unless rubbish will lodge against the piling. In that case it
would possibly deter the shad from passing up. I don’t believe from
what I have seen of bridges in other places that it will have a very

serious effect. Local conditions may cause a lodging of materials there.
Q. Don’t you think fishermen ought to be prevented from fishing near

the bridge?
A. I think it would be a good idea.

Q. What is the longest span of the bridge? tae
A. One hundred feet on each side. Distance across, five or six miles.

Q. Would it not be very much better for the fishing interests if they

had two or three of those pivot draws?
A. I think it would, but those can not be had. We have one or two

spans on each and they draw about 30 feet.

 

 

 

~ lls OE RR eg

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 69

Q. What effect would the vibrations of the bridge have upon the shad
fishing ?

Dr. Moore:—I have never made any observations on the shad, but in
the case of sea-herring such questions as that would have very little
effect. I believe it is equally as shy as a shad and as liable to be scared
away by unusual noises. I found in the case of the herring, vibrations,
such as the rumbling of vehicles over wooden bridges, explosions, both
from gas and from blasts, and similar noises, had very little effect; that
the fish would temporarily shy away from the source of the noise, but
would speedily recover their confidence and return. It is my opinion,
and only a mere opinion, that the bridge across the sound, unless it be-
comes choked up by means of travel, would not have a very serious effect
upon the run of shad above the bridge. Of course, the matter is one
that can only really be determined by experience, and that is yet to
come.

Q. Could you give an explanation of why shad have not been caught
above the bridge on Chowan river?

A. I have not enough knowledge of local conditions to say, and of
course there are usually a number of factors entering into a matter of
that kind and without a very close examination into the conditions it
would be rather rash to venture an opinion.

Q. Doctor, though they may not be frightened, the shad is a very
timid fish; he would be frightened by the shadows and deterred from
passing through on that account. Would he not?

A. I think not. You have a shad entering pound nets, where you
have shadows; but this depends largely on the location of the pounds.
If the water is discolored as it is now they would not.

A Fisherman:—The bigger the mesh of the pound the less shad you
eatch, and you catch better in clear water than when the water is muddy.

Dr. Moore:—I have seen fish swim around in an enclosure where

‘there were holes through which you could pass barrels, and yet a herring

less than a foot in length would swim past that opening without attempt-
ing to go through. On the other hand they would lead immediately
into the brush weir. The weir is essentially a pound net with the mouth
opening the whole depth of the water, but, instead of being constructed of
netting it is made of brush and eventually that net will become covered
over with marine vegetation and will make practically a closed fence.
Of course, on such a structure the bright daylight throws a very strong
shadow and the water in those regions is very clear and the shadows
would be very perceptible.

A Fisherman :—The lighter the net the more open it is, the more shad
it will catch. *

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

70 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA.

Q. Regarding the bridge, do you know the distance between the
benches ?

A. Twelve foot centres here. At Tunis they are closer together. The
plan provides that they should be 12 feet from centre to centre.

Q. Are there any shad caught above the bridge at Tunis?

A Fisherman:—I was down there on two occasions this spring and
there were a lot of drift nets set on this side of the bridge. I asked why
they did not set on the other side, and they said that they could not
catch any on the other side.

Mr. Vann:—I don’t know that this is practical, because the bridge is
there, but my opinion and experience differs widely from Mr. Smith’s
and Mr. Pruden’s. I feel now, as then, that it would be very injurious
to the fishing industry in this section. I inquired at Tunis what effect
the bridge would have upon the shad fishing; they thought that it would
only be an accidental shad that would get through at all. One and two
shad ata haul was what they caught, and sometimes none. They said
that fishing was nothing like what it had been before the bridge was
constructed. I asked, especially, why the drift-net people did not fish
their nets between Tunis and Winton. They said it was no use to try
to catch fish above the bridge with a drift net.

Mr. Privott:—It seems to me the Committee wants to decide whether
the people should be restricted in fishing a certain distance from the
bridge. From Mr. Currie’s question, I think that the Committee wants
to know if there should be any restriction near the bridge.

Mr. Woodard:—In my opinion no nets should be fished within a
mile of each side of the bridge.

Mr. Hoffler:—We are interested, to a certain extent, in Gates County,
but unless protection is afforded us lower down we will be left out en-
tirely. I think, in connection with the work of the Fish Commission in
the enforcement of the Vann law, that there should be some definite
location as to the mouth of the Chowan river and its tributaries. There
is some doubt as to the true mouth of the Chowan river, and you will
become acquainted later on as to the advantages and disadvantages of

not knowing the mouth of that river. ;
Chairman:—Judge Graham has a resolution he wants to introduce.

RESOLUTION.

Resolved, That the thanks of this committee be tendered to Mr. George W.
Goodwin for the use of his launch, which he so courteously placed at our
disposal to visit the U. S. Fish Hatchery this morning.

Mr. Pruden:—What do you think would be the propriety of leaving
some of the counties out?

 

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 71

A. It is merely a question of whether some particular local matter
shall be applied to a particular county. There may be cases in which it
might be just to except a certain county. As to the legality of it I have
no doubt in the world as to the legality of these laws in respect to the
different counties.

MR. VANN,

I think the Committee, as well as everybody who has heard what has
been said today, feels that the Fish Commission has been efficacious in
protecting and carrying out the laws for promulgating the fishing in-
terests, and that is the important feature of this matter. The original
bill has run the gantlet. For the next season we will be without any
enforcing clause, by an unfortunate oversight when it was left out of
the bill drawn up by Mr. Privott. I would like for this Committee, if it
can do so, to pass some resolution to recommend that the Governor call
an extra court in any county where the Fish Commissioner would be
powerless to carry out the law, on account of the bill as it now is: I
say for this season, because we don’t know what may happen. There
ought to be some way by which the people could feel that they would
be protected if the law is violated.

Q. What do you think of the jurisdiction of the Fish Commission
being extended to all the counties of the State?

A. I think it should be done. ‘

Q. What do you think of the advisability of consolidating the oyster
and fish commissions? They are both similar and still they are admin-
istered by entirely different departments; would it not be more econom-
ical?

A. I am uninformed as to the oyster interests, and can not say.
There are certain people who believe in uniting them, and others do
not. There was a sentiment abroad that the Oyster Commissioner was
not as efficient as he should have been; and, perhaps, that had as
much as anything to do with dividing the two Commissions. There
seemed to be some feeling between the two interests. It is singular to
say that those fishermen who have oyster and fishing interests together
do not unite with us in our efforts to protect the fish.

Mr. Meekins:—Not so much. So far as my experience goes, Dare, at
the one end, and Chowan, at the other, have about come together.

Fisherman from Tyrrell County:—Some counties pay their taxes
and others do not. That is unfair and unjust that one set of fishermen
should pay and others should not. In the end we have to pay that tax
in addition to the other taxes. I think it would be a good thing to let
the tax come from the general treasury of North Carolina. Five cour
ties do not pay any taxes.
 

   
  
 
 
   
   
  
  
 
  
  
   
  
    
 
  
  
 
   
     
   
  
   
   
  
   
 
 
  
  
  
   
  
   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

72 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Judge Graham:—This has certainly been a very interesting, and, I
hope, a very profitable day. Our committee has very greatly enjoyed
being here. I, for one, am very favorably impressed with the people
who have been here today. And I want to introduce a resolution that
the thanks of the committee are hereby tendered to the people from
Gates, Chowan, Tyrrell, and other counties who are here today, for
giving information to the committee.

Resolution passed.

MANTEO MEETING.

Juty 9, 1909.

Meeting called to order by Chairman.
Mr. Meekins called on Mr. Crisp, who, while not a fisherman himself,
has been among them long enough to have practical ideas. *

"4 MR. CRISP.

It is true I have lived in this county over thirteen years, and its principal
occupation is its fishing industry; but at the same-time I am not familiar
with the methods of catching fish. I have had some experience in the legal
questions presented to our court of last resort by Mr. Vann that we thought
was unconstitutional and undertook to get the Supreme Court to say so. The
purposes of that bill are good. There are a good many things in regard to the
different interests in the fishing section. I think Mr. Vann bit off a little
more than he could attend to in this bill. I think that section of the Vann
bill which provides for the confiscation of the property of the citizen is in
violation of the property rights of the citizen as contained in the Constitu-
tion. I think that is one of the evil features of the bill. It suspends the
action of the court in trying property rights and puts too much power in
the hands of the individual, and the complaints in that case provided that
that proceeding is to be insisted upon. I think a careful study of the present
Vann fish bill in some of these respects will develop the fact that it is based
upon a misconception of some of the evils it was intended to correct. In
our waters the fish are not on their spawning ground, but on their way there.
They have business and they are going to attend to that business. They go
to the head waters of Albemarle and Croatan sounds; it is necessary that
the passage way should be kept open. This is conceded by all. At the same
time it is not necessary, in order to keep that passage way open, that all the
privileges of our people should be curtailed. I don’t think that is the pur-
pose of the Vann Dill, but I think that by reason of a misconception it is so
construed. In other words, they apply the knowledge that the shad has
gained up there on their spawning grounds to our waters when he is on his
way there, and the rule will not apply. There is no doubt to my mind, with-
out having given to it the scientific study of the experts or without having a
practical knowledge, that the supply of fish has decreased. And there is no
doubt but that destructive methods have much to do with it; but we have

already restricted ourselves. At one time it was seriously reported that we ‘

shut the inlets by putting nets across the inlets. But a little study will

    

    

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 73

show that men setting nets across the channel would have them carried out
to sea. It is impossible to absolutely close the sounds, and it is nearly im-
possible to stop the fish when he is on his way to his spawning grounds. I
have always contended that the only fish stopped in our waters are those
caught in the nets. With a reasonable channel left open there is no doubt
but that the fish will go into the interior waters. I think a large percentage
of the diminution of the quantity of fish should be attributed to destructive
methods of catching them on their spawning grounds, catching them in pound
nets in the deeper waters up the sound. The spawn deposited under these
conditions will not mature. I take it that it is impossible but that there
should be legislation connected with the fishing interests; I take it that the
present legislation is unsatisfactory, that it works inequalities, or else there
would not be efforts put forth to better conditions. I would make this sug-
gestion: that geographically we are the Ishmaelites of the fishing industry.
The fish, to get to their spawning waters of the interior, must pass through
our county. In different localities they fish different materials. Up the river,
the head waters of the Albemarle Sound, and in our waters the interests are
to some extent complicated, and in discussing this question before the legis-
lative bodies we are the Ishmaelites because it seems that the hands of all
the other fishermen are against us, and that our welfare and our interests
to some extent conflict with theirs. I take it that your purpose is to con-

sider what is justice to our people and others and to reconcile these in-
equalities.

Q. What method of punishment would you suggest for a fellow who
has violated the law and fishes in prohibited territory? Now, I under-
stand in the case that you spoke of that it is unconstitutional to confis-
cate the nets. What would you suggest as to the remedy?

A. I would suggest the same punishment to all violations of law and
in the same way. It was good enough for our fathers when they gave us
laws and provided for offenses in the criminal law, and it seems to be

good enough in all parts of the world except for the Dare County fish-
ermen.

Q. Is it only for Dare County?

A. It applies only to Dare County.

Q. Is it not general?

A. There is a big majority against us in the territory connected with
the fishing interests.

Q. The reason I asked the question was that I heard it discussed at
Edenton and some one advanced the idea that if the authorities did not
have the right to at least take up the nets, that with the punishment
prescribed, say $50 (and he would not give up his season’s fishing for
$50 unless the authorities had some way of stopping him), he could fish
the whole season and not feel such a small fine.

A. The difference between stopping his operations in fishing in viola-
tion of the law and taking his net out of water, and advertising and sell-
ing it, and putting the money into school funds is a good deal. These

     

 
   

 

 

 

 
 
 
  
 
  
   
 
 
  
 
  
 
  
 
  
  
 
  
 
  
 
   
  
 
 
  
  
   
  
  
 
  
 
 
   
  
  

74 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

people actually mortgage their homes for money to get fishing material
with. So far as the punishment is concerned, I don’t recall what it is.
That could be obviated very easily by increasing the punishment. If the
measure is not sufficient to deter them, why make the measure bigger.
One of the inequalities of this bill, and the one that we justly complained
of at the time, is the fact that there is absolutely no way to determine
whether he is fishing in violation of the law. He is limited by yards.
The only way to determine whether he is fishing in prohibited territory
or unlawfully is by one individual, the Fish Commissioner. It is almost
impossible to determine distances on water. A man may, in perfect
good faith, put hundreds of dollars worth of material in the waters
and extend them to a place he thinks he has a right to go. The Fish
Commissioner, to the best of his ability, has made his survey, and the
United States authorities have codperated with him in making his
survey.

Q. Can he not make an actual measurement from the shore?

A. They are a difficult matter. The difficulty is in establishing per-
manent marks in the waters, by which we can be governed, unless it is
by fixing marks on the shore. We can locate the distances by a system
of triangulation, but there should be a means of establishing more per-
manent buoys than has so far been practical.

Q. Since this survey has been made has there been much complaint
because of persons violating the law and going upon territory where
they are not permitted to fish?

A. I have heard nothing except in a general way. I have heard some
complaint of different individuals; I have never heard any of the
details.

Q. Have there been any prosecutions in the past year or two in re-

gard to it?
A. Yes, there have been some prosecutions in our justice’s court.

They did not arise because of the Vann bill, but on another question
entirely. The question that arose was as to where Croatan ceases to be
Croatan and becomes Pamlico.

Q. Can you give us any information as*to the relative eatch of fish
in the past two years and what it was prior to that time?

A. I think the fishing conditions are getting worse all the time.

Q. You think the catch was smaller this year?

A. I think so. There are some individuals who make very good
catches, but as a general rule fishing conditions have grown materially
worse. When I came to this county they used gill nets and the ship-
ments of fish were much larger than they have been for the past four or

five years.
Q. Was that so this past season ? ft

 

cee ata ae cus, 4! 7

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 75

A. I don’t know that I can answer that with any great degree of in-
telligence. I suggest one of the causes of decrease in the quantity of
fish itself. I think it is attributable largely to catching them on their
spawning grounds up the sounds. I think that if the time will ever
come when the United States, as a whole, will prohibit, absolutely, the
using of pound nets for catching fish, the fishing interests will improve.
Of course it will be useless for one locality to prohibit the using of
pound nets when others engage in it.

Q. To what do you attribute that decrease?

A. I think these nets catch up large quantities of fish that are not
marketable, fish that would grow to be marketable afterwards; I think
fishing in deep water a much larger number of fish get in these nets
and spawn in them, and that the spawn does not mature. There has
been a large decrease in the fish in this locality. Last year I had some
occasion to investigate some comparative statements as to the shipping
from the agents of the freight lines, and estimated the number of boats
that were taking fish to Elizabeth City, and I found there had been a
great decrease. My first acquaintance with the fishing industry in this
county was in 1896 and, I believe in 1900, there was a report of the ©
United States Fish Commissioner that was based upon the fishing opera-
tions of 1897 and at that time (and I went over.that report very care-
fully)—at that time the operation of the gill nets in this section was
very different from what it is now, much fewer pound nets being
fished. And I don’t think that any one will controvert the statement
that, taken as a whole in the sound section, there has been a falling off
of the fishing interests of this section. It is in proportion to the increase
of the pound nets. The enlarging of the meshes of the net will have
some advantage. I am not well enough acquainted with them to say
just what.

Q. Why is that more destructive than the other methods?

A. They are migratory fish. ;

Q. I understand your remarks to relate especially to the shad. Have
you ever seen or heard of any large quantity of shad or herring being
taken in pound nets?

A. They catch large quantities of herring in pound nets in all sec-
tions, I suppose. ;

Q. Did I understand you to say that your general objection to the
pound net was that it killed the little fish?

A. I don’t know.

Q. Do you think that the pound net interferes more with the spawning
operations than any other net that is used?

A. I don’t know that I could answer that. I have never seen but one
net fished and that was a bluefish net at Nag’s Head, on Sunday.

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

76 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Do you think that the pound net causes the fish to turn back and
not continue up the streams?

A. That was one of the objections; that, and the interference with
the natural spawning operations of the fish.

Q. Do any of the fish that get into these nets ever get out?

A. There are quantities of fish that get into these nets and work
their way out of them.

Q. Do you think the pound net has any more deleterious effect in
the sound than in the rivers?

A. I.don’t think it has as much, because the sound sweeps them on
toward their spawning grounds, but the rivers are operated in a lim-
ited territory.

Q. You stated that the Vann bill was based on the observations on
fish higher up in the waters of the sound and that these observations
were not a criterion for regulating the fisheries in this region. Oan you
give us some idea of why this is true?

A. I was advancing this idea, and I was only speaking for myself and
not with a practical knowledge; I supposed, from the place of residence
of its author and the influence that had it introduced, that it was based
on the habits of shad and herring in that locality, at the headwaters of
Albemarle Sound and along the rivers emptying into the waters of
Albemarle Sound. Necessarily there is a difference in the fish’s nature
when it is on its way to the spawning ground and after it abides. It is
strictly on business when it goes into these inlets, and it is headed for the
waters of Albemarle Sound; it takes something more than a fish net to
turn it back and make it go to sea. When it gets to these upper waters
it has arrived at its destination. It is much more apt to get into the
pound nets in circling round than when on the run and there are more
chances of getting a larger number in the pound nets. The same spirit
that animates the fish when it is in our waters is not found when he
is under different circumstances and on his spawning grounds. You
have to scare him very bad to make him go back to the Atlantic Ocean
when he is on his way to see Mr. Vann. :

Q. You mean the destructive means of catching fish in these upper
waters is tending to decrease the spawn hatched? Are these means of
catching fish different from what they were ten or fifteen years ago?

A. I suppose not. I suppose it was owing to the increased number
of nets. I should say these people have a better chance to catch up

there than we have here. :
Q. Do you think that the seine is the most destructive means of

_eatching fish? I believe there is only one seine in operation in the

State now. ie
A. I should take it to be so. It operates in a more limited area;

 

a ta

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA T7

they only sweep the shore for a mile or so along the shore. Its de-
structive effects are limited to the part operated by the seine; that is,
where a man would operate his seine on the spawning ground.

Q. Do you think the diminution of the fish is attributable to the
seine ?

A. Not exclusively. It is one of the causes. I think the destructive
appliances for catching fish is causing a diminution of fish everywhere.
Of course it is natural that there should be a decrease in the quantity
of fish if the pound net is a better appliance for catching fish than the
gill net. When you take a detour, extending for a mile or two in the
sound, a fish coming along has a bare chance to get out unless he works
around. That is one difference in the fish net used in our waters and
those of Albemarle Sound. When he strikes that net or lead, if he gets
around the first pocket he strikes another that leads him, and the
chances are pretty good that he will get caught. It is only those that
stray off that get to their spawning grounds. There is a difference in
the ease and facility with which the fish can be caught under these differ-
ent conditions.

Q. Speaking of the decrease of fish, do your remarks apply only to
shad or to all classes of fish?

A. I have no means of knowing anything except about those from this
county. I can only judge from the financial condition of the county
now, as compared with what it was thirteen years ago, and the gradual
changes in the financial condition of the people.

Q. How do you think the catch of herring is? Is that catch as large
as it formerly was?

A. I don’t think so.

Q. You think it has decreased ?

A. All kinds have decreased. The fishing here has been a practical
failure for the last three or four years. There has been no successful
fishing since 1897. In 1902 there was very good fishing, but there have
been intervals of two or three years of comparative failures.

Q. Does the depth of the bar change from year to year and is it
deeper at one time than another?

A. I don’t know. ,

Q. Do you think the depth of the water on the bar on the inlet has
anything to do with the fish that come in?

A. A large number of the fish that come up here come in from Beau-
fort, Hatteras, New, and Oregon inlets. I don’t know whether the
depth of these has anything to do with it or not.

Q. How long has the pound net been used down here?

A. I don’t know. The first I saw of them was back in 1892. When
I first came few were here in the upper portion of the county.

     
  
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
  
 

 

 

78 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Is the use of these nets increasing or decreasing?

A. Increasing.

Q. How long have they been -increasing? ;

A. I think there has been a gradual increase in the quantity used. I
know there has been a gradual increase in the territory in which they
are used. ;

Q. Is there any difference in the number of persons engaged in fish-
ing in this county now and in the number engaged in it ten years ago?
Has the number increased or decreased ?

A. I should say it is practically about the same. The people from
adjoining counties come in and fish during the fishing season.

Q. Nearly everybody in the county is engaged in fishing ? : ;

A. There has been an increase only in proportion to the increase in
population. The people that come from other counties and fish in our
waters have caused an increase in quantity. There has been a natural
increase’ in population and it is the source of support of the people in

i ty.

Gon tink that, as the population has increased, the number of
people engaged in fishing has ere: and the individual catch of fish
i Iler than it formerly was ‘

‘ ree think the eects of fish shipped from the county is decreas-
ing all the time. I have never heard any one say, who was in a position
to know, but am only judging from the financial results; and, a seat
ago I got an opportunity at Roanoke Island to see a freight agent’s

report. : ;
0. Can you give us any suggestions whereby you think the interests

of the fishing industry can be improved here?
yea! & dont think that I ean. I don’t know that I am sufficiently in-

formed on the practical: workings of the fish industry to be 0 be —
any practical suggestions that would be of value in detai ; s =
judge, in a general way, there ought to be a general See ne ee
suggestion comes from a concensus of opinions) of the ra Fis 7" ‘
so as to make it practically comformable to the recommen ng m <
by the Convention of Fishermen that was held at Morehead an =.
I understand, a compromise measure of the conflicting interests #
various sections in the fishing industry. As to exactly where ines
should run I would say that the people of this county have a right -
expect that in establishing lines of prohibited territory that - ae
might be kept open, but not to prohibit the use of any more of : e we
waters of our people than is necessary to give a chance for t — .
of the fish to the interior sections. Our contention is that the ma

body of the fish pursue the channels and the channels are not obstructed -

and can not be. It may be that there have been some nets set 1n places

rs hg gua
5 a

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 79

that are objectionable. In adjusting these lines it has been contended
that there is some territory now prohibited that could be left open to the
public engaged in fishing. The lines ought to be marked with something
fixed and immovable.

Q. What, in your opinion, has been the effect of the establishment of

the fish hatchery at Edenton upon the quantity of fish that come through
these waters? ;

A. I should think it would have a tendency to increase the supply, but

I don’t suppose it has been sufficient to take the place of the fish that
were once here.

Q. You stated that your county was the Ishmaelite of the counties;
will you please state how that is that you should be the Ishmaelite of
all the waters of North Carolina? What is the reason that your hand
is against every other county and every other county’s hand against
yours?

A. We want to catch as many fish as stray into the shores of our
waters, and we want them to catch what they can, but we claim they
want to catch them all.

Q. Then you think the Vann bill is a good bill in its intention and
that it should be changed in some of its details?

A. Yes; there are practically some little features that might be
changed. '

Q. This is an acknowledgment that you were wrong in opposing that
bill in toto.

A. We did not oppose it in toto; we offered a compromise bill that
was intended to accomplish the same purposes. What I am protesting
against today is the idea that we down bere are blocking up the sound,
so that the fish can not get by.

Q. Is it the opinion in Dare County that too wide an area is left
open in the sound?

A. Opinions vary. It is the opinion of those above Pamlico Sound
that they would like to see it as wide as possible.

Q. In regard to that locality, what is your idea as to the proportion
of the sound that ought to be prohibited?

A. I don’t know that I could give an intelligent answer to that, but
I should think that it would differ in a narrow sound. If you give
one-fifth in Pamlico, at places thirty miles wide, the width ought to
vary with the width of the sound. I believe the present law is one-fifth
of Croatan, leaving three-fifths open. I have no objection to that law.

Q. What do you think would be the best proportion ?

A. The distance in the sound to which the nets are extended should
be different in proportion to the width of the sound. Due regard should
be taken in each locality to keep open the channel for commerce and a

a ae ra

—eseeeamawteeeaneen

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80 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

reasonable passage for fish. Notwithstanding that I claim that there
is a diminution of the quantity of fish in existence, I think and have
thought a very small percentage of the fish that come into the waters
are caught. ;

Q. Do you think that this fish law ought to be applicable to all the
counties in the State and not just to those in this northeastern section ?

A. Yes. I don’t see how it is possible to devise machinery for the
protection of fish unless you make it apply to all the waters.

Q. Do those people who are in the unprotected waters come over 1n
Dare County and fish?

A. I think they do, to some extent. :

Q. Your county, I believe, was interested in oysters to quite an ex-
tent. Have you any suggestions to make in regard to an oyster law
that would be more efficient and make that industry pay for itself and
not be a tax on the people?

A. No. I have saa given the oyster industry any thought what-
ever. Not much oystering done for the last few years. — There has been
a decrease in the supply, due, I should say, to excessive dredging. I
would say that they have already taken some wise steps in regard to the
oyster industry. It is true that people have not been educated yet up
to the effect of that. It takes several years to test laws of that kind. I
think these are steps in the right direction and will give the oyster a
chance. There are some beds of oysters that I think would be profitable
if they could be dredged and broken up and scattered. oe

Q. I believe the statistics show that, in 1905, $27,000 were —
by the State from the oyster licenses, and last year not more th we
$10,000. Can you give any reason why there should be such a terrible
decrease ? é

A. I don’t know. ‘I am not familiar with the oyster industry and
have not kept up with the recent oyster legislation. I don’t know the
recent statutes. .I would say: enforcement of the law, protecting the
plants from the excessive use of dredges and serapes until the oysters
have had time to recuperate. Assuming that the present law has pro-
vided for the proper limitation of that, the only thing would be to see
the law enforced. : :

Q. Do you think that there are aye — engaged in carrying

fully from these waters to Virginia
coe hep eae a bt ht
. Do they go that way to Elizabeth City? :

: They pet" have vis by Elizabeth City, and I think that pro-
vision for inspection would prohibit the taking of them. The oyster
section of this county is principally below here.

 

 

La LOT BIE TOD SRNR LT EE SIE ET TT a

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 81

MR. DANIELS,

Q. Will you give us your idea of any grievances that you have or
your views as to how the fishing can be improved?

A. I think if our inlets could be made deeper it might help. Ten or
fifteen years ago, when we were catching plenty of shad and herring
here, there were eighteen to twenty feet of water at Oregon Inlet. I don’t
know what was at New Inlet. I think the inlets being filled up has lots
to do with the fish not coming into the waters. I believe we have just
as many shad now as we ever had, not in these waters, however, because
of the filling up of the inlets. That New Inlet was a great inlet for
shad. I guess now a man could nearly wade across. A fish does not
come in an inlet that a man can wade across.

Q. When they come in the inlet do they go through the deeper waters
of the channel, or do they go through the shoals?

A. They go up the channel.

Q. The fish in the neighborhood of these inlets is on the shoals?

A. They follow the channel as far as they can.

Q. Do they fish in these channels?

A. It is impossible for them to fish in these channels.

Q. Simply for the mechanical reason that the nets can’t be hauled
through ?

A. They can not haul the nets in the channels.
Q. Do you think that if the channels were dredged and deepened
they would improve?

A. I think if we had more channels and deeper ones we would have
more fish.

Q. Suppose the general government can be induced to make an inlet
from Kitty Hawk, and the water from Croatan Sound might be diked
across, do you think the volume of water coming through Albemarle
Sound would be sufficient to keep the inlet open? If you had a pretty
big inlet at that point what would be the effect on the fish and oyster
industries of this State?

A. I think it would have a very great effect; there would be a great
increase of the oysters and a great increase of salt water fish. I think

our shoals now, where we have any, would be covered with ducks and
wild fowl.

Q. Did you know there was formerly an old inlet at Nag’s Head?
A. I could not answer that question. I suppose there was. A man

can go up Currituck Sound and see where there used to be oysters, the
shells are there, but the oysters are gone.

Q. How many years since that inlet was closed?
A. I don’t know. ;
6

 

 

 

 
 

 

 

82 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Is there a tradition in the country that there was a time when
oysters were more abundant than they are now?

A. I think so. That would have to be periodically dredged to keep
it open.

Q. How long since the water of Oregon and New inlets began to be-
come more shallow than it is now?

A. I can remember when there was from eighteen to twenty feet of
water on the bar at the shallowest place; I should judge there might be
twelve feet now at Oregon Inlet.

Q. What is the width of New Inlet?

A. Four miles.

Q. There are only two openings from these waters to the ocean ?

A. Yes. There are two inlets that the fish can get in our waters.

Q. What is the average width of the banks from Hatteras to the Vir-
ginia line?

A. About a mile; in many places it is much narrower and in some

places wider.

Q. What do you think concerning the Vann law upon the fishing
interests of the State?

A. It is hard upon our people in some ways. It has driven our peo-
ple ten miles down the sound to fish their pound nets, and many have
had to give up fishing for lack of boats. We think ten miles is too far

for the fishermen to have to go down to set their nets.
Q. You speak of that ten miles below the lighthouse on Roanoke

marshes ?

A, Yes.

Q. What provision in the Vann bill?

A. That there should be no pound nets within ten miles.

Q. They still fish along there on both sides?

A. Yes. It looked as if ten miles was too far.

Q. Do you think there ought to be any fishing in Roanoke Sound,
between Broad Creek and Ballast Point, where the inlet is so narrow?

A. I don’t think that it makes any difference whether there is any
fishing there or not; they don’t have many fish.

Q. The fish all seem to go on the Croatan side?

A. Most of the fish go on the Croatan side.

Q. Can you give any reason for that?

A. The only reason I can give is that they have deeper water.

Q. There is some fishing down at the lower end of Roanoke Island,
over on the Roanoke side?

A. Yes; some fishing there.

Q. What success do they meet with?

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 83

A. Some years they do fairly well and others not, owing to the con-
dition of the winds and weather.

Q. Are these nets so set that the fish can not come up Roanoke
Sound?

A. I could not tell you about that; I have not been there when the
nets have been set.

Q. Can you give any suggestions as to what sort of law we could
pass that would be of benefit to the fishing industry down here?

A. If the laws were repealed and no others made I think we would
be better off than we are now.

Q. The fisherman, in order to catch any shad, must go as far as Ore-
gon Inlet?

A. Yes. Ther ‘o catch them up above. This is very much below
Oregon Inlet. I believe we have just as many fish in our waters, and I
have had thirty-two years experience, but I don’t think they come up
in our inland waters because the inlets are shallow. I think that that is
the great trouble. I think they go on up the beach and go in some of
the deeper inlets.

Q. Where do you think they go? In the waters of the Chesapeake
there is said to be less fish than there have been in years.

A. Perhaps some go up there. I do know that when we had deep
inlets we had plenty of shad.

Q. Do you think a greater quantity of salt water would tend to
make the shad go farther up in the fresh waters?

A. Indeed I do. He would go on until he found the fresh water.

Q. How would that affect your fishing industry? Would the only
fish you catch be those as they go up the rivers? Don’t they linger
here?

A. No; they don’t linger here, when he strikes our inlets he is on his
way to his spawning grounds. One day we will hear of a man having
good fishing down below and the next day we will hear of good fishing
farther up.

Q. Have you any knowledge of the character and method of fishing
carried on by those who fish on the spawning grounds farther up the
sounds ?

A. I think that that’s a part of the grounds that ought to be left
open. I think that if there’s anything destroying the fish that is the
place they are destroyed. That is the only place where the fish is lin-
gering around, and he is more apt to be caught there than if he were
hurrying through.

Q. Have you any definite information as to what portion of the

spawning ground is unfished ?
4. No, I have not.

i *
” LTT LT TE ELE I LT cL SET OR TT SE ITE ET . -

 

 

———
 

 

84 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Have you any definite knowledge as to what character of water
they spawn in?

A. I have not.

Q. Do you know any one here who has knowledge of these matters
out in the sound or near to the shore?

A. I don’t know. I expect Senator Vann could tell you. We have
been told by the fish hatchery that it was in from six to eight feet of
water.

Q. What do you think of the sturgeon fishing? Has the catch in-
creased or decreased in the past five years?

A. It is about the same as it was. It is not very profitable here.

Q. How far out do they fish from the inlet?

A. I was never out where they fished.

Mr. Holman:—They generally set them two or three miles.

Q. According to the statistics, published by the National Govern-
ment, there were 57,000 sturgeon caught in North Carolina in 1902?

A. They were caught along this coast on the outside. The only stur-
geon caught in this sound are caught in the pound nets. Occasionally
you will hear of a man catching a sturgeon in a pound net, but that’s
seldom.

Q. Are they caught in pound nets on the outside?

A. No.

Q. How far out are these sturgeon nets set on the outside?

A. I should say the most of them are set four miles.

Q. How was your catch of herring this year, as compared with that
of several years ago?

A. Very few of our people fish that kind. Most of our people fish
what we call a 4 1-2 inch net, and herring go through that. You see
we turn all the small shad through; we don’t want to catch them.

Q. Will they go through those nets?

A. Yes; they will go through if the herring go through.

Q. Some years back 1,000,000 pounds of herring were caught in Dare
County. Do you think the catch this spring amounted to as much as
this?

A. No. Then we were fishing a small mesh net which will catch the
herring. I don’t know of a dozen small mesh nets being fished over
the section where I fish.

Q. Why is it they don’t try to catch the herring ?

A. They find it more profitable to let them go. And they think they
can handle the nets much better just to catch the shad.

Q. How early in the year do you commence fishing for shad?

A. The first of February.

Q. How long does the shad season continue with you?

 

 

ern.

Ea : PLT Fe EE TNC ES ET ee

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 85

A. Until about the first of May.

Q. Is it kept up until the 10th of May?

A. Yes; until about the 10th of May. Very few are caught the first
of February, but the fishermen begin to put their nets in and that is
kept up until the first or tenth of May.

Q. What is the difference in time when you commence to catch them
and the time they begin in Chowan River?

A. Sometimes we hear of their catching up there before we do. We
think that fish pass us before we put our nets in.

Q. Do you think it would be wise to have any legislation in regard
to the time to commence fishing?

A. It doesn’t make any difference about that. I do think it would
be well to have a time for all nets to be stopped.

Q. What dates would you suggest for that?

A. I should say, about the first of May have all the nets out and give
lots of fish a chance to go up. We say the 10th of May they commence
taking out, but there’s plenty of times our nets are in up to June, and
they catch shad.

Q. Do you think that would tend to increase the fish?

A. I think if we had them all out by the first of May it would be a
good thing for the increase of fish.

Q. Would you be willing to sacrifice your present interests to that
extent ?

I think so.

How many pound nets do you control?

Sixty or seventy.

How long would it take to take up that many nets?

Six or eight days.

How many men does it require to take up a net?

It takes two men to take up a net. Two men in a boat can take
up six or eight nets in a day.

How many men do you have to operate a net?

Two men, sometimes three, to operate a net.

Do you fish up above the Roanoke marshes or below?

Mostly above it.

What is the width of that sound above the lighthouse?

The narrowest spot is about three miles and the widest part,
above that, is about four and a half miles.

Q. I believe the limit now is about two thousand yards?

A. Yes.

Q. Do many of those people come from unprotected territory into
your territory ?

A. Not as many as some years ago; we have very few.

POPOPOP

POPOPSO

 

EL LLL LE TE a a AE
 

86 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Does the Vann bill tend to keep those people away?

A. I don’t think it does. I think that they have just simply found
out that they can have just as good fishing at home.

Q. What do you think of the law as it now is, leaving some of the
counties out? Do you think they all ought to be under the same law?

A. I think all ought to be under the control of the same law.

Q. There seems to have been a decided increase of the shad in the
upper waters and, you gentlemen say, there was a decrease in these
waters. How do you account for that?

A. The only way I can account for that is that we had lots of south
winds and when the shad came in our waters they did not tarry, and
when they struck the salt water they made a bee-line for the fresh
water.

Q. To what height does the tide rise here?

A. It varies with the wind. The difference from the inlet would
make a difference of two or three inches.

Q. How far, in a direct course, from here is Oregon Inlet?

A. About nine or ten miles.

MR. SCARBOROUGH.

I was impressed with what was said in regard to the inlets along the
coast and the suggestions with regard to Croatan Sound, and the ques-
tion that was asked about the volume of water and that it would require
periodical dredging. I don’t believe it would. I believe if Croatan
Sound were diked and Roanoke Sound here, there is a sufficient volume
of water forced up by westerly winds to deepen and widen Oregon and
New inlets. If that could be done you would not only have an inlet at
Nag’s Head, but you would have much better inlets at Oregon and New
inlets. Living here, as we do, we understand the way the waters work.
We are dependent entirely on the winds for the rise and fall of the
water. But if there is not much wind you can’t tell the difference.
Take a north or a northeast wind and it blows the water from here
down to the lower Albemarle Sound and up those rivers, and this water
up here follows it. It takes a northwest wind to force this water down
and it will run through Croatan and Roanoke sounds, but if there was
this inlet the water would seek its level by going into the ocean, and by
that means we would have a vast territory up here, where there used
to be millions of oysters. Take Currituck Sound; the bed of that sound
is a bed of oyster shells, and there are rocks that are very nearly out of
the water where oysters used to be, but there are no oysters there now,
simply beause there is no salt water. But, if there is a volume of water
let in above, you will have oysters. If we have a salt season or two the

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 87

dead shells will take a new start, and we will have a lot of little oysters
north of Roanoke Island.

Q. Upon what does your season depend ?

A. The season depends here on the salt water.

Q. Upon what does the salt season depend?

A. We are governed here, or affected rather, by the volume of water
that falls in the upper part of the State and in Virginia, that comes
down the Roanoke and Chowan rivers and, I remember, two or three
years ago, we were doing splendid fishing and a freshet came down
Roanoke River and we did not catch any more fish at all. And that’s
the main reason why you caught the shad last season, We had salt
water here and there was not enough fresh water above to come down
here and interfere with our fishing. Take a salt season and the fish
will go up the sound and you catch them as they pass. We can hear
tell of a catch of fish today being made at Hatteras, and about the
second day they will strike way up the sound. If we have strong tides
on the south end our gill nets don’t get any fish, simply because the force
of the tides cuts the nets from the bottoms and the fish go on under
them. The nets are held on the bottoms by means of bricks, and that
brick has a string to it about eight to ten inches long and they are five
yards apart. The lines between these bricks must be as much as two
feet or more above the bottom of the river or sound, as the case may be,
and there is no chance for the fish to pass under. The weights on our
pound nets are from six to eight feet apart and the force of the water
lifts this line up the sound and the fish go under. We can’t catch fish
much down here in strong south winds. People up the sound don’t have
the tides to contend with and will catch more fish than in this locality.
As to the effects of fishing the waters limited from Oregon Inlet to New
Inlet (five miles, I believe), the last Legislature passed a law to change
that inlet. That is a mistake. That takes out right much of the gill-
net-fishermen’s territory. It may be better for the pound-net-fishermen,
and gives the shad a better chance to go through that inlet. It will
benefit a few men for that law to be changed, but it will benefit many
more for that law to remain as it is.

Q. Can you suggest any changes in the Vann bill?

A. I think the Vann bill does very well as it is, but it would give
many fishermen some advantage to move Vann bill up five miles. It
works a hardship on many fishermen to make it ten miles.

Q. You are fishing below Roanoke marshes?

A. I am fishing at Roanoke marshes. Within 500 yards of Roanoke

marshes. I fish on the marshes at the other end of Roanoke Island.

Q. Do you fish pound nets?
A. Yes.

EN Re re

 

  

See Coenen = nee

pa eee
   

 

 

88

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. It has been suggested that the government should keep open an-
other inlet, say at Kitty Hawk. What effect would that have, say upon
the oysters in Croatan Sound and Roanoke Sound?

A. I think it would increase the oysters.

Q. Would it give you more salt water in Croatan Sound ?

A. Yes.

Afternoon Session.

MR. SCARBOROUGH.

We were talking of the effect of cutting an inlet at Kitty Hawk. To
dyke these waters across Croatan and Roanoke sounds, I believe, would
work a hardship on the people of this island.

“Q. If a larger quantity of fish come through New Inlet would not
people fishing in that section transfer their operations to the other sec-
tion? _

A. The principal part of the fishing is done from Long Shoals River
to Hog Island.

Q. Is there any fishing out in front of Durant’s Island?

A. I don’t think there is much.

Q. Where is Long Shoal Island?

A. (Answered by pointing to map.)

Q. There is not much fishing below that?

A. Not much. Up to a couple of years ago there was scarcely any
fishing done in the sound below that.

Q. Would that be an indication that the fish do not come in above
Hatteras Inlet?

A. Yes, Hatteras and Ocracoke inlets.

Q. You were speaking of the effect of deepening that inlet and how it
would affect the waters. What effect would it have on the island? Some
gentleman expressed an opinion that it would flood that island.

A. You mean on the fishing industry of the island? As far as the

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 89

north to Kennekeet Inlet. It was evident there had been an inlet there.
One old lady at Stumpy Point remembers crossing that inlet when she
was a girl. She is over eighty. This was just north of Kennekeet.

Q. What about sturgeon fishing?

A. The sturgeon fishing in this sound has stopped. About eight
years ago or eleven, I went up Albemarle Sound with four crews of .
sturgeon nets and did not catch any sturgeon. I went home and into
Pamlico River and I shipped out of that river sixteen kegs of caviar,
and the next year it decreased, and so on. These sturgeon are a good
deal like sheep; they go in droves.

Q. Do you think it would be advisable to have a closed season and
prohibit the catching of sturgeon for ten years?

A. I think so.

Q. Where do they spawn?

A. They spawn in brackish water to fresh water. They go up to
where the warm water runs out of the creeks and rivers. The majority
of them spawn next to the shores on the sound.

Q. I believe the shad has to have fresh water?

A. Not much.

Q. Have you seen much of the spawning in this place?

A. No, I have not. I have caught now and then what we call a ripe
fish.

Q. Have you seen them killed while depositing the spawn ?

A. I have caught fish at sea and I have caught fish in the sound, but
you don’t get any ripe fish in the salt water; you do pick up ripe fish
in the rivers and heads of the sounds.

Q. You base your information merely on not catching the ripe fish?

A. I do not. The people here hardly put in early enough in the
season. Most of the people who fish for sturgeon are engaged in the
shad fishing, and they don’t want to leave that until the run of sturgeon
passed and we have what we call a trash fish that breaks them up.

Q. ‘When was that old Nag’s Head Inlet stopped up? Was it within
your recollection ? : The last quotations I got a keg of caviar would bring about $202;
A. IT don’t know. There have been inlets all down those banks. I $2.50 a pound.

remember, four or five years ago, there was a gentleman through here Q. How many sturgeon would it take to fill a keg?

looking up some old records on the lower banks. In 1712 there was a A. The sturgeon that IT caught on Pamlico would run about three to
map made by one Spencer commencing at Spruce’s Creek and running

What would a keg of caviar bring?

island goes it would not have any effect on that. We used to have a Q; What is the:catch ‘of sturgida on fw ebiidle eam yoart
natural blockade across the south end of Croatan Sound. The reason A. A few are caught.
| Nag’s Head Inlet filled up was because the force of the water washed the 1 ‘Tare there Tabacsdeck seetiaaba civaghil jut sab ssees Wide Senate?
| marsh away and washed it through. Take west winds, we have a low aes
sea and that makes a great difference in the water; makes it lower on Q. Were they ripe and ready for spawning?
the outside and higher on the inside and it will run out. < k.
| a
A.

 

 

 
 

 

 

90 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

the keg, There have been a few caught in the sound this spring that
checked the man who caught them over $100 each.

Q. Is it possible to liberate the roe sturgeon from the pound net?

A. Hardly.
Q. If required by the law would it work any hardship on the fisher-
man?

A. Yes.

Q. To what extent?

A. The man would have to damage his pounds and turn out a ~ of
shad to turn out a sturgeon, and it would be quite a money loss to him.
The catch of sturgeon is so small in the pounds that it does not amount
to anything.

Q. In regard to the oyster industry, what suggestions and advice can
you give us?

A sibel the best thing to be done for oystering would be to ee
dredging for a number of years and not permit any dredging :
around the south end of Roanoke Island because the balance of the
sound is dependent upon that place for oysters.

. Where is that place?

. You see those oysters are on rocks and are very small. In sar

spring of the year we have strong tides and it takes the oyster spat an
arries it down the sound and deposits it.
; Q. Do you mean to say that the oysters down the sound are not
spawned ?
th Not so much so as these, because these have the _ water.
i his line?
_ Have you made any observations along t : :

i Yes. 1 have seen buoys up around the head of this sound with
millions of oysters adhering to them. Sometimes there would be a —
piled up on each other. You don’t see it that way further down the
sound. The stakes in the sound will collect more oysters up this way
than down the sound.

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. Several reasons for that:

oysters and the quantity of oysters caught in the Chesapeake. When
they have a good season our season does not amount to much. For the
last year or two the demand down here has been very poor.

Q. Is the flavor of the oyster as good here as in the Chesapeake?

A. Yes; in some places. It will average as well. Most of the
oysters in the Chesapeake are cultivated, while ours are not, and we

can’t cultivate as well as they can, because of the tide waves.

Q. If an inlet should be made, or the government should undertake
to keep open these inlets, would that cause more tides?

A. Yes. That would be beneficial to the oysters; the more tide waves
the better oysters,

Q. What is the cause of the disappearance of the oysters in Croatan
Sound ?

A. Fresh water coming from Albemarle Sound. Some seasons the

freshets will kill the oysters around in Croatan Sound and the north end
of this island, sometimes they will kill right many on the south end.

Q. Whai causes the salt water to disappear in the Croatan Sound?

A. Fresh water coming down the Roanoke and Chowan rivers and
driving the salt water ahead of it.

Q. Why didn’t it do that before?

A. That has been the condition ever since I have known anything
about oystering.

Q. It is just every now and then that you have oysters?
A:*Yes:

Q. What suggestions would you make to us about the oyster industry,

and what do you think would be best to recommend ?

A. To stop the use of dredges for a number of years.
Q.° What length of time?

A. Not less than five years.

91

The main reason is the low price of

We have not enough tongers in this
State and in this county to affect the supply of oysters. Moderate tong-

ing does them good. Take a natural rock, what we call a hard-shell
rock, and the dredging does not hurt the oysters so bad as where mod-
erately soft. The dredgers will go for the oysters and when you catch
oysters the next year there will be some dead ones half-full of sand. It
is not the oysters they take so much as the oysters they kill.

Q. Are there any dredgers in this county?
A. Not now. We had a good many.
Q. Have you, yourself, ever dredged.
A. I have dredged for six or seven years.

Q. Do the dredges hurt as ordinarily worked on soft bottoms?
A. “Yes,

Q. To what would you attribute this — in the oyster catch in
i eight or nine years?

ss haneaie era the people here have caught many fer
and carried them out of this State. We have a cull law, but De n .
to impossible to enforce it. The buyers will pay ate ° eye
twenty cents for oysters unculled. I know a rock atthe sou - I Paso
has been cleaned off a time or two and left dead shells on it. ? p
should have remained to catch the oyster spat to take a set for another
Che statisties show that in 1901 the State received eg tv
the oyster industry and last year it did not reach as much as ,000.
How do you account for that?

 
   

 

 

   

92 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Do they work on that in preference to working on the hard-shell
bottom ?

A. We don’t have very much hard-shell bottom here; where the
oysters are scattered on the softer bottom they command a better price.
The oysters on the rocks around the other side of this island are not
caught except to sell to planters. There is some mention made of a

closed season for shad.
Q. About what would be the best time to take out the nets?

A. There is no doubt but that our shad fishing season extends too
late in the season. I fish pound nets on the south side of this island,
and about the first of May we begin to catch the back-runners, those that
are returning to sea. The nets should all be taken out of the waters of

North Carolina by the first of May anyway.
Q. Is it not a practice to put the down-run s
A. Yes. . Many people do it in farming sections. In ’72 I went to
the fisheries at Sunrise Point, Sandy Point, and Drummond’s Point,
and Mr. Peter Warren told me then that he estimated his catch at

500,000.
Q. Has that been the case of late years?

A. That has not been the case of late years,

so numerous now as then.
Q. Have you any way to estimate
are put on the farms?
A. No, I have not.
ther up. It does not occur he

nets out of the water very ear

that day I turned loose as many as 200 shad.
Q. Do you think that the great destruction of fish that are on thei

way to the spawning grounds is the

fish ?

A. I think so.
Q. Can you state definitely that the people up the so

catch them during their spawning season ?
A. IT can not. But I presume they catch th
and rivers as the shad go to spawn.

catch more on the spawning ground
the sounds and rivers the shad come to spawn

could not catch more in proportion than we do.
Q. Do they catch any other kind of fish in these po

shad?

A. Very few.
Q. What are done with these other fish?

A. The marketable fish are shippe

had on the farms?

because the fish are not

the number of down-run shad that

T should estimate there is a large quantity fur-
re, because, as a general thing we take our
ly. I had mine out the tenth of May, and

 

Sahn it ren

saa

principal cause of the depletion of

unds and rivers

em as far up the sounds

T don’t see why they should not
s than we catch. On each side of
I don’t see why they

und nets, except

d. We pick up now and then carp,

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 93
(3)

a few rock, but our principal fish now are shad. A few years ago a good
“ng Me Poni nets were fished in these waters and caught a lot of

erring. e price of herring went so low th

at we found it m

SS to use the large mesh nets than the small ones. By Sree
of having these nets of larger mesh and by tarring them, the
lighter and easier to handle. ns

Q. Do many of these small shad go i

ad go into the nets with t

Do you catch many shad six inches long? agli saraty

A. Yes. We used t ri i
a sed to catch right many when fishing the small mesh

Q. Do they go through the large mesh pound nets?
A. You never think of seeing the small shad now in the pound nets.
: Q. - 1902 there were over half a million pounds of shad estimated >
ave been caught. What kind of nets were they mostly caught in?
A. Part were caught in pound nets and part in purse ce That i
net that is on two small boats, and it is towed by a larger i t tas
Q. Are many of these used here now? ada Ne
A. No; I don’t think there was a crew out last year.
Q. What is your opinion of that method of fishing?
= = Ree see that = has any more effect or is any more injurious
an an i
sa oe i ee “ < I think that the small mesh pound nets are

CAPTAIN NELSON.

While he is a fisherman, I am an oysterman. I have been in the
eas business for twelve years. There is very little tonging done in
State. Some at Stony Point, but most is done in Carteret County

en you stop the dredging you stop the market, and there are not

enough tong oysters caught to supply the market. We have been culti-

“4 oysters and now they are worth from 50 cents to 75 cents a

1 hee panied been getting that for the past two years for the
reason that everything else has failed. In the past seas
: 0

glad to get 25 cents a bushel. eh acai

Q. Why was that?

, A. One reason was the warm season; another reason was that they
a plenty of oysters on the beds; then there was the lack of demand.
es people eat oysters, and poor people were out of work.
. Are you from Carteret County? How long since h
ing in Carteret County? : : et
" eh remember, but about since 1900.
: a i ing i
Sas m not mistaken you don’t have any dredging in Carteret
A. No.

 

 
 

 

 

 

if
|

 

94 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

. Where do the dredgers work?
ie In Neuse River and around Point of Marsh. Carteret ss
like other counties that provide for their tongers. The on eet
we have in Carteret County are around Portsmouth, around t = 8 st
and through Core Sound. All of the dredging ground in - eS
County is now being worked. Take a line rine ag ei a
iver; hen a line from Har
house, the whole of Neuse River; and then | ay , 5
ightheuse to Southwest Point; and you take in all the dredging groun
that there is in Carteret County. :
Q. What effect does this dredging have upon the supply of dane
A. The most of our oysters were killed in the coast storm 0 Se a
Q. Do you think to continue dredging would materially affec
increase the oysters?
ee dredging, if the oysters are culled, will help. miter
eoakiains taking everything there is, it will not. Another oe a
by experience: When you stop dredging, some eS ee etre 7. pa
i i he law says to begin the firs
he law, while others will not. T
ait They begin the first barrel they can sell. The ie _ eh
shall stop the 15th day of March; they stop when they find they
sell any more. We practically have no closed on
Q. Does the oyster commissioner look after that? ae
A. The oyster commissioner is not the man to ~ a per sa =
is not authorized by the Legislature to pay 2 man tor se - ada
oyster season. The men at Elizabeth City are glad to ot ee
eat are caught after the season closes. The inspector : La poy
not been paid to look after this for several years. They ade ee
ning coon oysters from Carteret County up to So ape cay ae
spector in Elizabeth City has failed to get his pay. © * Pigoes
Q. I suppose on the 15th day of March, when his pay stops,
tion stops? oi
Bs Tet peeks the 19th day of March; I get pay up to the 15th
dge right on after that. 2 :
a eal = ia go on dredging after that? What suggestions woul
law? ;
ke as to the enforcement of the
aoe ssl not tell, with the present means. If WD peter 2
stout pay to start the force in by the first of September a

i first of May.
= niet think it auld do to consolidate the fish and oyster

head?
d issions, and have the two under one “
Tk Yheard the gentleman speak of that at Manteo, a ee 2
Hanan. that the oyster commission did not protect the fis By a aay
had it. We would feel like telling him that the fishermen

the oystermen to look after them.

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Do you fish any?
A. No.

Q. You have had opportunities to observe the fishing industry all
your life; have you any suggestions you can make in regard to this

matter?

A. I can not. I would like to see the oysters protected and the cull
law rigidly enforced.

Q. You say you are one of the oyster inspectors?
A. Yes.

Q. You say your duties stop on the 15th of March, and still the
dredging and tonging goes on?

A. The last Legislature passed an act so that we will not have any
inspectors in the sounds.

Q. Are all the counties in the State under the oyster commission ?
_A. Except two.

Q. Do you think the law ought to apply to these counties?

A. I am not acquainted with that. I don’t think the people want
any law. Since I have been in the business I have taken about one
hundred oyster tubs. The law says larger than the prescribed size shall
not be used. So far as it has come under’my observation I have tried
to enforce the cull law.

Q. At what point is the inspection of oysters carried on?

A. All over the sound, anywhere where we can find anything going
wrong.

Q. Are they inspected on the grounds and also at the cannery ?
A. Yes.

Q. And with all that you can not enforce the law?
A. The planters and canners in Virginia do not want them culled.

Q. But are not the oysters inspected before they go out of the State?

A. They are inspected in locks with a hundred bushels of culled
oysters on the front.

Q. Are they carried out in bulk?
A. Yes, in 500 bushel lots or more.

Q. Have you any suggestions to make as to how the inspection of

these oysters can be improved? Are there any regulations that can be
made that would bring that about?

A. Put on more force in the planting season.

Q. Would that obviate the difficulty when a man puts his unculled
oysters on top and his culled oysters below?
A. We have a law that there shall be an inspector aboard each boat

and he can not get through the locks without presenting a pass from the
inspector.

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

96 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Then the trouble comes in the carrying out of the law. You have
not the force to put the law in operation?

A. Have not the force to put into effect the pr

Q. What is the character of the grounds on W

done?
A. There would be no difficulty if the inspector was on the
Q. How deep is the water on these oyster bottoms?
A. The deepest is twenty-five feet.
Q. In what part of the sound are t

character ? :
A. In the middle of the sound there are soft bottoms with hard

j i i iddle of the sound.
lumps. I should judge it was ten miles to the mid
Q. Do the oysters occur on the hard lumps with intervening areas of

soft bottom ?
A. In some places there are lar

and died, some 4, 5 or 6 feet high.
Q. What is the effect of dragging t
that? What is the effect on the oysters
A. Where you drag the dredge on t

scatters them.
Q. Doesn’t the dredge drag a

bottom ?
A. I expect it does.
Q. Is it practicable to carry on
A. It never has been.

. Why not? : He eee
re The water is so deep and rough, and if there is much wind it is

very rough. When you have a lot of small boats you ae i violate the
law by dredging inside because you can not get out to dredge.

Q. In that deep open wate
not work and at such a time t

A. Yes. The oystermen told me t
more oysters than they had had in five years,

poor.

ovisions of the law.
hich the dredging is

ground?

hese bottoms and what is their

ge rocks where they have grown up

he dredge over such bodies as
2
he hard rocks it improves and

lot of the oysters down on the soft

tonging on these boats on the sound?

he dredger can work?
his past season that they had had

but the markets have been

DR. MOORE.

. . k-
In regard to the market for oysters of last year, to which ~ i
ers have referred, the market for ordinary oysters all over

in
Atlantic seaboard during the past two years has been pT 88
There has been a glut on the market, not because of the nu

for
duced put because the demands have been lessened and the reasons
?

i i 8 in the
this are two-fold, one of which is brought out here, +. Pe ‘pris Ses
season of both years was rather warm weather when the shue

+ the sea is often so rough the tonger can _

re

i}

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 97

not handle their stock on account of the danger of decomposition. The
principal reason, however, was that the business depression of the two
years had destroyed the demand for that class of oysters. The persons
who could buy the higher grades of oysters were quite capable of doing
so, but those who ordinarily bought the shuck stock found themselves
confined to the absolute necessaries of life. They could not buy the
luxuries and consequently the oyster trade suffered. There was also a
second factor in the so-called oyster scare which threatened the oyster
market in the north for the last two years. Certain planters had laid
down oysters in the close neighborhood of the mouths of sewers and had
succeeded in contaminating their oysters with typhoid germs. The
health authorities discovered that and it got into the newspapers and,
although there were but one or two cases it was worked up into such
sensational stuff by the papers that the people got the idea that all
oysters were infected, which resulted in the low prices. Not an over-
production, but an under-demand brought it about.

P. T. MEEKINS.

Q. Do you think the fact that last winter and winter before were
warmer had anything to do with the oysters?

A. They were warmer earlier in the season. I have been an oyster-
man for twenty years and the time has come in Dare County when you
can not make a living at it. Fifteen years ago a man could take a crew
and go in Pamlico Sound and come back with a good load of oysters.
The time has come when something should be done in regard to the
taking up of what we call plants and selling them out of the State. I
don’t think there is a bed in Pamlico Sound that could have paid ex-
penses by catching lawful oysters and selling them; hence they get
unlawful oysters, load the vessels and carry them to Virginia. Our
oyster rocks practically belong to individuals in Virginia, and unless
dredging is stopped the time will come when we will have no oysters at
all. I would propose to stop dredging altogether.

Q. How long a time would you recommend to stop?

A. Oysters are something that grow very fast. Two years would be a
big advantage. Four years would be more,

Q. Would you prohibit dredging on all the rocks of the State? You
would prohibit those in the middle of the sound as well as those that
are reached by tongers? :

A. Yes. In the middle of the sounds, as Mr. Nelson spoke, we oyster-
men, the tongers, do their tonging in the middle of the sound. On the
rocks that are dredged you can not catch them by dredging nor tonging;
the oysters are not there.

7

» Se a eS a a ee |

    

 
 

 

 

 

 

98 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Do you think that dredging of itself is an evil or that it is an

evil simply because the dredgers have been allowed to take unculled
stock ?

A. The dredging at the present time in the condition that the rocks

are is an evil. If the laws had been regarded from the first we would —

likely have plenty of oysters in spite of dredging.

Q. In spite of dredgers? :

A. The tongers run a very small business. The large boats are very
careful in buying. They would not bother with a lot of small tongers
because they want to get a load quick. I have known of them coming
this way, catch a boat load, keep them on the same boat and carry them
to the mouth of North River and on to Virginia. For small tongers to
load a boat would probably take a week; hence they depend upon the
dredgers entirely for the small oysters.

Q. Are the tongers particular in regard to their culling?

A. The marketable oysters are taken by tongers because they don’t
want small oysters.

Q. That is for State consumption? Of course the market oysters are
taken entirely by tongers and they are carefully culled. Are you in
favor of prohibiting the shipping of these small oysters for planting
purposes? ‘

A. Yes. I think they ought to be kept on our oyster rocks. ;

Q. How would the men make a living if you prohibit the taking of
market stock for five years?

A. Oystermen would have to tong and sell nothing but marketable
oysters.

Q. How would you suggest that we can best enforce the law?

A. I don’t know of any better suggestion than the force we have had,
unless the State sends out an army.

Q. Are there many who dredge without paying license ?

A. No doubt there are many who dredge without getting out license.

MR, MEEKINS.

Q. Are you engaged in fishing?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you think that the fish laws are sufficient that you have here?
A. I don’t know of any improvement, upon the law that I would sug-

gest right now. :

Q. What would you say as to the date of taking the nets out of the
water? ,

A. I think we ought to have a time for taking the fish out of the
water, and it would be a benefit to the fishing industry, although it

would prove a hardship to many people. I fish in the upper part of

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY 1N NORTH CAROLINA 99

Pamlico, and the lower part of Dare County, and for those people who

fish in Croatan such a date would prove a hardship, yet, to the industry
at large, I think it would prove a benefit. :

Q. You think it would be a hardship to your section?

A. Yes. The reason why we close when we do is because the fishing
season with us is up; while they catch shad later up the sound than we
do. If it is closed with us and these people are allowed to fish in the
upper sound, it would work more harm to the fishing industry than if
we were allowed to fish.

Q. If a date is fixed for the taking out of the nets do you think the
same date ought to apply to all the counties?

A. If it is going to make any improvement I would recommend it.

Q. What do you think of the advisability of putting the fish and
oysters under one commission ?

A. If there is going to be more force put on to make the taxes higher
I think the people have enough burden now.

Q. Would not it be more economical?

A. It might be. I think the oyster commission will have to be con-
solidated with some other to support it.

MR, PUGH.

Q. In what part of the county do you live?
A. On the island.

Q. What do you think would be a proper time for taking out the
nets?

A. I think, for the benefit of the industry, the first of May. Of
course it would be a hardship for a lot of people.

Q. Would not the increase in fish be sufficient to justify the change?

A. In the end I think it would.

Q. Are you engaged in oystering as well as fishing?

A. I don’t know anything about oystering.

Q. What has been your observation as to the practical working of
the Vann law? Has it been a benefit to this section?

A. I think it has, to a certain extent. It has been a hardship to a
great many; but it has been a benefit to the industry.

Q. Could there be a law that would not work a hardship, necessarily,
to some?

A. I don’t think there could.

Q. What do you think of putting the whole State under the law and
having no- counties excepted ?
A. I think that ought to be, by all means—have no counties ex-

cepted. I think there might be some little changes in the Vann bill
that might be beneficial.

 
 

 

100 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. In what way would you suggest that these changes be made?

A. I would suggest that it be made five mile limit from the inlet. I
would suggest that it remain as it was, only extend to the main channel
in the sound. That would leave an open space from the inlet to the
channel which leads up into the sound. Heretofore, under the Vann
bill, it only extended to Oregon Inlet?

Q. What difference would that make? What would be the effect of
the change?

A. I think it will really be better for the industry if it is eonnected
with the main channel which runs straight through. If you run it out
of that southwesterly course it conflicts with the gill net fishermen.

Q. Do the gill net fishermen, down below this point, fish all over the
district ?

A. They fish all over the sound, from the shore to the channel.

Q. Do you think to retain the course of that strip to the west would
be a benefit to the industry? (Points to map.)

A. I think it would be a benefit to the fishermen and to the industry
both.

Q. What is your idea as to the effect of the inlet fishing upon the
catch of fish? :

A. We have deep water only in one narrow place where the bar used
to run, probably east; now it runs south, and a fish coming up by this
inlet, keeps along the shore and when he gets up the shore, to strike
deep water they have to turn back and run a south course to get in
there. : (1's

Q. Does that apply to New Inlet?

A. I don’t know about New Inlet.

MR. MIDGETT.

I am a Croatan fisherman. As to the line from Fleetwood Point
to the five hundred yards limit on Roanoke marshes I would ask that
that be straightened. It leaves a bow in it on Callahan’s Creek. It
will work no hardship to any one, and only be of advantage to a few
fishermen.

Q. Over what width of the sound do the fish run?

A. About two-thirds. When they are going up the sound they turn
over that west line.

Q. To what do you attribute the decrease of the fish in these waters?

A. Too many nets is one thing. There being so many pound nets up
the sound; the fish go up there and they will go in those pound nets
and spawn, and the pound net will set there a month. The stakes are
full of moss, and just about the time they begin to get ripe the nets are
pulled up and they fall to the bottom and are lost. More fish are

 

 

=

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 101

destroyed in one week about Edenton Bay and the mouth of Chowan
River than are ever caught in the sounds.

Q. How do you account for the destruction of the spawn around
Edenton ?

A. The fish go in that still water and will get into the nets when the
nets are full of moss and will spawn there. Probably the next day the
egg is ripe, and it gets into a condition that when they pull up the nets
they all go to the bottom and stay there, and do not develop.

Q. To what sorts of nets do you have reference?

A. Pound nets. I am not talking about the fish that have gone in
the nets, but the fish that are drifting around to deposit their spawn.

Of course when they go in the nets and find an easy place they spawn
in there.

POWELL’S POINT MEETING.
Jury 12, 1909.

MR. HAMPTON.

Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of Currituck County:—In the Legislature
of North Carolina there seems to be some trouble arising from down in
Albemarle Sound regarding the tax placed upon the nets in Currituck County
and all over the State of North Carolina. I, being your representative and
desiring to represent my people, take the liberty of saying to the General
Assembly that you people don’t want it. But I am glad the committee was
appointed and, as we could not have our meeting at Currituck court house, I
desire that you express yourselves upon this matter. I do not desire to be
your spokesman now. The gentlemen are all present. If you were to run up
this sound until you reach the Virginia line and see the nets that we have
in the Currituck waters, you would not feel that our people should be op-
pressed by a tax. We go up into Currituck Sound and come up with fifty
pounds of fish, two men working all day. But I desire that the people ex-
press themselves relative to that matter. We ought not to have a tax placed
upon us. We are burdened with taxes now in Currituck County. We are
not able to help the poor Confederate soldier, and yet the Legislature wishes
to tax these people who are not able to support themselves. In making up
your report to the Assembly of North Carolina, don’t add Currituck to that
part of the list. We are behind in our crops. You are now in the garden
spot of Currituck County. Now what we need is to be let alone. We are
protecting ourselves; we are enforcing the law; and we don’t need the guards
to guard for us. But just let us alone. We are quiet and happy and con-
tented. The people have asked me to come down here and represent them.
I shall always endeavor to do my best. It is altogether different. You have
different kinds of fish here. You don’t need the laws regulating them as they
do in Dare County. To come down here and place upon these people a tax—
they don’t need it. If any man wants this law or thinks it would be bene-
ficial, I want him to say so. I don’t see it. I am not a fisherman, but I look
at them who do fish, and they feel sore about the Legislature trying to im-
pose a tax upon them. We have got a Democratic county, and I am proud
of it. I am living among Democrats, and I want to say this: Let us alone.

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102 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

We are contented and satisfied and happy. They pay about half the tax that
was paid in Dare County. I just want you gentlemen who want a tax placed
upon you—I want you to sit down. Any man who is in favor of placing a
tax upon the people of Currituck County, please stand up. (Nobody stands.)

I wish to say that you have some of the truest Democrats in North Caro-
lina right here, and they are gentlemen. There is not a member of this com-

mittee who is not a gentleman, and they will do what is right. They are fair
and square and impartial men, and they will do their duty.
One and one-half inch mesh nets—none ought to be allowed to be set in

Currituck Sound smaller than that. As long as they use the small mesh
nets, they catch up the small fish.

Q. Is there a scarcity of fish in your sound?

A. Yes, they are scarcer than ever known.

Q. What sort of fish do you catch in this sound?

A. We catch white perch and the robin and the shad, and black bass
and the carp. A few years ago, Lieutenant Winslow was going to fill
the sound,with white shad, by turning loose a lot of them, but we have
not seen any shad but have been eaten up with carp.

Q. How many shad do you get in this sound?

A. Few, and on the other side.

Q. In a report of the U. 8. Fish Commission for 1902, giving statis-
tics for Currituck County, they allowed 168,000 shad, valued at $8,635
How do you account for this?

A. They were caught on the opposite side.

Q. Are there any pound nets set in Currituck Sound ?

A; Yes.

Q. What do you catch in these pound nets?

A. They catch perch mostly; we have a great many herring in the
spring of the year.

Q. To what do you attribute the scarcity of shad?

A. I don’t know about the shad.

Q. Do they ever come up in this water?

A. They never did, except in Albemarle Sound.

Q. Why is it that there is no shad in these waters?

A. On account of the number of years of over-fishing at the inlets
where the shad come in before there were any restrictions by law there.
Up to a few years ago the fishing around the inlets was not restricted
and was carried on where might made right.

Q. Suppose the inlets were kept open and the channel kept open,
then do you think shad would be profitable in Currituck Sound?

A. No. Shad will never be profitable in Currituck Sound; it is not
the right kind of water for them to seek.

Q. Why not?

A. The upper ends of the sound are not salt. Currituck Sound

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 103

almost closes at the point called. the “Narrows,” from this on there is
salt water that comes across at a place called Rudy’s Inlet, and that
water flows down through this section and makes it brackish.

Q. How is the channel at the “Narrows?”

A. It is about the width of Albemarle and Chesapeake Canal.

Q. What do you mean by the “Narrows?”

A. There is a little “Narrows” and a big “Narrows.” The little
“Narrows” is twenty-five feet wide, and the big “Narrows” is a quarter
of a mile wide and not over two feet of water; it is covered with marshes
up here. The shad fishermen who have nets in Currituck Sound can not
hold a shad in, on account of the tide and the drift grass. Water in
Currituck Sound is high in one section sometimes and low in another.
The northeast and northerly wind makes it low at Currituck Sound.

Q. How much does the tide rise here?

A. It is not affected by the rise and fall of the ocean. In the case of
a severe storm it does come across and pours immense quantities of salt
water into Currituck Sound.

Q. What kind of nets do you use in Currituck Sound?

A. The average net used in Currituck Sound is a net 150 yards long
by five feet deep, hauled up by men from the stern of a small fishing
boat. It is true that in the spring of the year they will put two or three
of these nets together and fish along the shores.

Q. Is there not a law to govern their fishing?

A. Yes. I want to say to this committee that Currituck County de-
pends for its money crop of fish on the black bass. That one species
pays to the average fisherman what he gets from fishing. Close the
season for six months and we will conscientiously obey the law.

What six would constitute the closed season?

. From the 15th day of April through.

. When do these fish (black bass) begin to spawn ?
. In the month of May.

A

Q

A

Q. You have seen them in the month of May?
A. Yes.
Q.
A.
and

©

How do they behave at that time?
The ones I have caught in the spawning state were up the creek
along the coves in Currituck Sound.
Q. Were they on nests hatching their eggs?
A. I didn’t suppose they made any nests.
Q. In what kind of a place do the black bass spawn?
Dr. Moore:—They usually spawn in the small streams, running up
into the creeks, and the large mouth bass, which I suppose is the one
common here, frequently spawns around the edges of the marshes. Both

 

 

 

 
   

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104 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA
the large mouth black bass and the small mouth black bass are among the
few fishes that construct nests. They form the nests by fanning away
the soft mud on the surface until they come down to a bed of gravel
which gives a firm foundation, and the eggs are then deposited on that
firm foundation, and not only that, but the fish act as guards until they
are hatched. What I want to know is to learn if there is any one who
has seen them when they were spawning, as that would indicate the
season which should be closed.
Is there anybody in this party who has seen the fish on their nests?
I have seen them in the early spring.
At what time?
From the last of May until some time in June.
What is the round robin?
The round robin and the mud perch and the sun perch are dif-
ferent local names. I could show them there today, at work, with the
nests rounded out and concave like saucers. I have noticed it myself
for five years. It seems to me like the question is whether Currituck
should be taken in under the Fish Commission and be taxed, or not. We
want to show you why we should not. We want to look at it impar-
tially and—

Chairman :—We want to find out what you need to benefit your fish.

A. What we need is the establishment of a hatchery for black bass.
To begin with, we give ourselves ninety days more protection than any
other county in North Carolina. Should we be taxed by the Fish Com-
mission for protection of what we had already given ourselves before the
Fish Commission was ever thought of? For the last ten or fifteen years
the Representatives from Currituck County have passed wise and efficient
State laws. I believe that I voice the sentiments of Currituck County
when I say that they would willingly be taxed if the rest of the State
gave the same protection to the same class of fish that we do. But the
black bass is spawned, reared, caught and shipped from Ourrituck
Sound and never go out. He is not a migratory fish, but is to the man-
ner born.

Q. Is there not a limit fixed upon the size of the mesh by law?
A. No. ,

Q. Do you think it would be advisable to have the size of the nets
fixed by law?

A. If the Legislature passes a law saying that no net shall be used in
Currituck County smaller than a 1 1-2 inch mesh you will confiscate
people’s property and take it away from them. I don’t know whether
it would be a wise recommendation or not? I think if there was a law
passed that a man in Currituck County should not fish a net less than
1 1-2 inch mesh it would work a hardship upon some of our citizens.

POPOPO

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA : 105

Q. How long do these nets last?

A. A pound net will last about four years; the haul nets and seines
about two.

Q. Would there be a hardship in passing a law which would limit the
size of the mesh in the future?

A. Now you are coming to a reasonable point. If the legislature
will enact a law that no net smaller than a 1 1-2 inch mesh shall be
fished in the waters of Currituck Sound and give from two to four
years for it to go into effect, it would be a good thing. It will not be a
wise law to confiscate what property they have today.

Q. What are you going to catch your herring in?

A. I am not referring to herring, but talking about black bass.

Q. In what kind of a net is a herring caught?

A. He is caught in a 1 3-8 inch mesh net.

Q. When does the herring come?

A. Herring comes in the spring of the year, when the other fishing
is over with. We have the herring the first fish we catch in the.spring.

Last year, the end of February, the people were making nice catches of

herring.
MR. TATE.

>

The catch of herring is made here in the latter part of spring, some-
times as late as May. I am not speaking about the pound nets in Albe-
marle Sound. There are dozens and dozens of fishermen from this point
who don’t fish out in Currituck Sound, but out here. The most of them
fish in Albemarle Sound, and Mr. Moore’s report, when it refers to the

large amount of shad caught in Currituck Sound, it was by these men.
Some of them fish in North River.

Q. Do they run to head of North River?

A. Very few.

Q. Do they spawn in North River?

A. I think not. Of course the water is black in there; that water and
the water of Currituck Sound does not suit the shad.

Q. You say that you are not personally engaged in fishing? Is seven-
tenths of all the money that is made in this county made out of fishing?

_A. I am indirectly engaged in fishing. I said there were fishing com-
munities. These people are farmers and fishermen, but there are cer-
tain communities where fishing is a great industry.

Q. What does the game industry amount to in this county?

A. I should say that the ducks and geese in this county average from
$60,000 to $120,000 per year.

Q. Does that include the game shipped out or sportsmen coming to
hunt here?

A. It includes the game that is killed and sold.

 

     

 

 

 

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106 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. How many club houses are there in the county ?

A. Four or five; possibly six or seven.

Q. How many persons are in the county engaged in hunting for a
living?

A. I would say 350 to 400.

Q. It is not so large an industry as the fishing?

A. No. More people are engaged in fishing than in hunting.

Q. Have you any idea of the number of pound nets used in the county ¢

A. That has been disputed once. You could not consider it Currituck
County when you get out in Albemarle Sound. The nets are fished in
Albemarle Sound, four or five miles from here; from here up the sound,
very few.

Q. Are these pound or gill nets fished out there at that point?

A. Pound nets and gill nets both.

Q. How far from the shore are these nets; how many miles?

A. Quite a way out. Sometimes they are set half-way out in the
sound. I have passed along when they were two miles from the shore.

"Q. Do the majority of your people want any change in the law?

A. The majority of the people of Currituck Oounty don’t want any
change in the fishing law. We think it is a local affair and the people
don’t like to shoulder any extra burden of taxes.

Q. What would they think of the law being repealed entirely ?

A. They would not have the laws repealed.

Q. Why? Do they do what the law says, when two thousand yards
from the shore is the distance they should fish their nets?

A. Because they think they have the best laws they can get. The law
says two thousand yards from the mainland is the distance they can fish
their pound nets.

Judge Graham:—I wish to make a statement. We have not been
sent here to look into any question as to whether you should be taxed
or not taxed. This commission was instituted for the purpose of seeing
what were the best laws to pass to protect the fish and oyster industries
in North Carolina. We are sent down here to talk to you face to face.
So it is not a question of taxation, but to see what is best to build up our
grand old State. We want you to express your sentiments and you will
receive equal consideration and we will be thankful to have you help 8

work out this problem. If there is a law in existence which you don’t
like, express your views as to why it should not be.

Q. What law should you think should be passed ?

A FISHERMAN.

We people were under the impression that this committee was to sie
here to discuss the question of taxation. We had no notice at all. It

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 107

came to us in this way: that this committee was coming here to place a
tax upon the people of Currituck County. We are all opposed to paying
that tax. I am very glad that gentleman made that assertion more plain.
We were laboring under the impression that this committee was coming
here for the purpose of establishing a tax. I have not been able to read
the acts of the last Legislature regarding fishing. I claim to be a life-
long fisherman. I have fished dutch nets in Currituck Sound. The ques-
tion has come up in regard to the size of mesh of nets and of herring.
It is immaterial to me. If my people in the county agree that 1 1-2 inch
bar net should be used I will cut my nets that same size. Perch, herring,
and a few shad is what we catch.

Q. How many pound nets do you suppose are used in the county ?

A. I should say 150 pound nets are used in the county.

Q. What kind of nets are principally used in this county?

A. What we call the drag net. As the chub is the main fish in this
county, if there could be a law made whereby these could be increased it
would be a good thing.

Q. What is your experience? Has the supply of black bass decreased
in this county?

A. Undoubtedly so.

Q. To what extent ?

A. I will say two-fifths.

Q. To what do you ascribe that?

A. I can’t tell. Some lay it to the salt water coming over from the
the beach; some lay it to what is called the carp eating the spawn, and
others say there are so many more fishing than ever before.

Q. Do you think a larger proportion of the people of the county are
engaged in fishing?

A. Yes, indeed.

Q. What has been the increase in the number of people who are en-
gaged in fishing and the number of nets in the last five years?

A. I suppose 150 would not be over-estimated.

Q. How do you think this supply of black bass can be increased ?

A. By establishing a fish hatchery.

Q. Have any black bass ever been deposited in these waters?

A. There were a few put out about twelve years ago at a place called
Black Waters.

Q. Did you know that the United States government will not establish

a fish hatchery in any county which is not under the control of the State
Fish Commission ?

A. I didn’t know that.
Q. Don’t you think that is right?

 

 

 
 

   

 

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

MR. CURRIE.

You have a law here which controls your sound and yet you com-
plain of a depletion of fish. We have a law which controls the Cape
Fear River, and we used to have lots of shad, but we haven’t them now.
We are not under the law and the government won’t put the fish in the
river. I would like to say right here that I think the welfare of North
Carolina is hanging in the balance. So far as having a general law is
concerned I think we ought to have a law in North Carolina by which
every stream that is worth anything should be under the control of the
State, so that we could draw from the United States government part
of their patronage. If this is worth anything it ought to cost us some
thing. We ought to look at it from both sides. We don’t want to make
any pledges. So far as I am concerned I would say that I am in favor of
a general law which will help every fishing stream in North Carolina,
and I am in favor of being in such a position as to call upon the United
States government and say, we demand your fish; I don’t want the Cape
Fear or the stream on which I live to be cut out because we are not under
the law. If a law is worth anything to you it is worth something to me.
It is just this: We can’t have a selfish law that will benefit one part of
the State without helping the other; we can’t be cut out. At the same
time we find some of the counties that want to be a law unto themselves.
It may cost us something if we have a general law. Some people think
that we ought to have a State Commission, like a Railroad Commission,
and there ought to be men to see that the law is enforced and control the
whole matter. In that way, without doing violence to anybody, we would
save the people from themselves.

MR. SCARBOROUGH.

The last Legislature we had a meeting in our township to have a law
passed asking for a chance to begin our fishing for the rock and white
perch. We can catch them in September and it would do a lot of good
to our neighborhood on the banks if they could fish then. We can not
commence fishing now until the 20th of October, and by that time they

have gone out. If they could fish in September and October it would be

a big benefit to these people.
Q. If you were permitted to fish for these fish, could you catch black

bass at that time of the year? ;
A. Mighty few. We catch mighty few black bass. The vee a
heavy and they are a fish which sets in the grass and you can t hau
them out. I have been living there forty-five years. We fish in the fall
for mullets and we usually catch lots of perch, but we never eatch any
chub. We only catch them during the last of the fall, when the grass

begins to tear up.

 

 

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   
     
       
   
   
     
       
   
   
   
   
   
     
    

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 109

Q. What kinds of nets do you use for this fishing?
A. It would be a haul net, a drag net.

Q. Is it a net from which you could get the other fish and throw them
away ?

A. The perch and several salt water fish.

Q. What is it you want to fish for in September?

A. It is against the law to catch any in September.

Q. You would catch some other fish that it is against the law to catch?

A. They would throw them away at that season of the year. At the
next Legislature I think it would be good to pass a general law, and I
hope you people will think about it more and more. Why have we not
a hatchery in this stream? The United States government don’t consider
that we are interested enough in the fish ourselves to protect them. So,
why should they help us?

Q. What about the closed season? Do you think that the laws are

_ Satisfactory as to the time of beginning and stopping fishing?

A. I think it is. I have not heard any complaint and so far as I am
concerned I am pleased. We need some rest.

Q. About what time do you stop?

A. We stop the last of April.

Q. Probably about one-third or one-half of the value of the catches
from this county consists of rock fish and white perch?

A. I say it would only take about one-fourth.

Q. Are there any special measures which you would like to recommend
to the committee which would be necessary to protect these fish?

A. When you speak of the white perch and the striped bass, Septem-
ber is the most valuable fishing month. Neither are in the spawning

season and at that time they are leaving the sound.

Q. Are you allowed to catch them then?
A. No.
Q. Do you think it would be a good idea to catch the fish at that time?

A. I think if the law would allow us to catch them that month of the
year the fishermen would derive more benefit. They don’t catch

many of the black bass and the people would be greatly benefited be-
cause they have no farms.

Q. If we extend the law and-allow you to catch these fish, would you
throw away the others which you would get?
A. Anything from the first of September to the 15th.

Q. How early would you want to begin that fishing in order to make
it profitable?

A. As early as the first of September.
Q. And take it how long?

 

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110 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. Up to the 15th of April. We are willing to quit the first of April,
if the law should be that way. :

Q. If it began that early would you stop before the end?

A. Possibly so. cs

Q. Would you think that law ought to be extended along the bank up
to the Virginia line?

A. If they want it. Atlantic Township was all that asked for it.

Q. Would it be efficacious for the other townships?

A. I think there are some people here from the upper part of the
county. If they could fish in September they could fish without boats
and oilcloth, and if they wait until later they have to work a month to

pay for their rig.
MR. BRINSON.

I am a fisherman myself and have been for several years, and I be-
lieve that*this September fishing would be beneficial to us, as there ~
a great many fish that come in and go out before we begin fishing.
think it would be best to let it apply to the waters of Currituck County,
as our waters are small and whatever fishing law is made et - =
applied just to the waters of Ourrituck County. The oe : id
think, would be caught in the warm season. I have noticed “ e ‘
five or six years that there used’ to be plenty of black bass in : e su :
and no carp; since that time there are no more nets fished an they “a ‘
constantly decreasing and the carp are increasing. And it is my opt
ion that they must be ences g3 sc spawn.

hey spawn in here

rs “haga ent pie I have been told the et was up here.

ime is it you commence fishing now

rs becca ie 20th of October and close the 15th of April.

Q. How would it do to change it to the first of October? orn

A. I think if you are going to make a change you had better make ms
the 15th of September; a change in the closing season would se a :
much difference. I don’t think the fish begin spawning before the firs'
of May. I notice there are a good many black bass along the shore on
sy hart fishing as early as the first or fifteenth of Septem-
ber would that have any effect on the price of the fish ? ses

A. It may be, because there are not so many fish caught, on om
noticed in the last of September that they are worth more than when :
season begins. We can catch the fish today and put them on the marke

tomorrow. are S :
Q. Is not that due to the fact that the fishing is prohibited until the

15th of October and only a limited supply of fish can go on the market ?

 

  
   
    
  
 
 
 
  
  
  
   
  
  
   
 
 
 
  
   
 
    
   
  
  
  
  
   
    
    
  

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 111

A. I don’t know. That may be the case. There are lots of salt water
fish that go on the market at that time.

Dr. Moore:—I don’t think the catch from Ourrituck County would
have a serious effect on the fish market.
Q. Where do you market your fish?

A. Norfolk, Baltimore, Philadelphia, New York, principally Norfolk.
Judge Graham:—I suppose you have heard the discussion here in re-

gard to the change of the limitations for the beginning of fishing. I
would like to hear your views upon this subject.

MR. GREGORY,

A. My views are based on eight or ten years experience.

Q. In what part of the county do you live?

A. Just above Poplar Branch.

Q. Do you think it would be advisable to change the date of beginning
the fishing from the fifteenth of October to the first of September ?

A. I think if it were changed the other way it would be beneficial.

We people in Atlantic Township ask for the law to be extended and we
have no objection for others to do as they like.

MR. LUARK.

Q. I would like to ask if there is any one here from the “Narrows”
and on the bank side, and what they think?

A. I agree with Mr. Brinson and I live on the beach side. We have
the sound on one side and the ocean on the other side. I would like to
have a law beginning on the fifteenth of September. But fish buyers
are not fishermen. I want the law so I can catch the fish. If we can
have the law extended it will just suit me.

Q. Do you think that that would have any injurious effect upon the
numbers of black bass?

A. Not unless they get thicker than they are with us. In fishing
three hours we will probably catch one. Whenever you haul fish up in
the warm season of the year you can’t put them overboard. I believe
these carp are eating up the spawn of the other fish. They tear up the
grass and dig the holes and devour the spawn. I have seen them work-
ing around in the marsh like hogs. There ought to be a law to kill
the carp.

Q. Do you catch any carp in the spring of the year?

A. Yes. We catch a few in the spring. They are bad to handle then
because they don’t come in very close. In September is the time when
we can get hold of them.

Q. Is there any information by which you can suggest that we can get
rid of these carp?

 
 

 

 

 

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112 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. I don’t know, unless we catch them at all times of the year.

Q. Do you think that you could get more in September than any other
time of the year?

A. We get about as many in September as any time.

Q. What would you get for them? :
A. We would get three or two and a half cents per pound. Since we

have had the carp I have noticed that the black bass have been grad-
ually working away. :

Q. How long have you had the carp with you?

A. About eleven years. :

Q. What would be the best means of increasing the number of black

bass? ae :
A. I don’t know. I think the fishing season 1s Just right.

Another Fisherman:—They want the fishing season open until the
gunning*season begins; then they gun it and they have two seasons.

MR. O'NEAL.

I don’t know as to the time for fishing. Of course we catch some
perch, carp and rock. As to the black bass, the sea tide injures eters
than anything else. Once in every three or four years it comes an “
hundreds and thousands of pounds; just as-well kill them as let the salt

ter kill them. :
3 You don’t think it would be advisable to make any change in the

date of beginning the fishing?
A. Only for perch, and rock, and carp.
Q. If we made that change, would not that take all sorts of fish

A. They would have to get all sorts or thro

then they would die. . :
Q. You don’t think they would catch many black bass in September?

A. Not very many. You catch more perch in September than in

November and December. ane
Q. You don’t think it advisable to change beginning to the middle of

September ? :
a: T am satisfied if the majority wants it. It would benefit me.
Q. How would it affect the fishing industry down here?

ink i i he carp.
A. I don’t think it would affect anything, only t
Q. It would not have any bad effect to put it the fifteenth of Septem-

ber?
er No. If the Fish Commission would send something and dynamite

i fited.
the sound and kill all the carp we would be bene :
Chairman:—I would like to take a vote on this question as to the

change of date from the twentieth of October to the fifteenth of Sep-

tember.
Ayes, 61; noes, 17.

w them overboard; and .

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 113

MR. T. G. DOWDY.

I have very little to say. A law that would give us some protection,
by keeping the waters open, would be some benefit. Mr. Meekins wrote
to us for to pay him some licenses and he sent a man up here to find out
how many were fishing. He also referred us to the section that pointed
out the fine for commencing to fish without licenses, but we learned from
our Representative that you at Morehead were silenced in saying any-
thing about it, so we knew that taxation without representation was out
of the question. I believe to keep these waters open for all here and to
enforce the Vann bill to its full extent will be of benefit to shad fishing
in Albemarle Sound. I, as one of the shad fishermen that fish in Albe-
marle Sound, am willing to pay a reasonable tax to keep up the office of
Fish Commissioner. But the law (the present way it reads) says you
shall apply to the sheriff for licenses and our sheriff has not any. Now
if the law applies to fish in certain waters I would like to know what I
have to pay for. It does seem to me like the height of foolishness for
the government to haul fish and put them in our waters and let the
small mesh dutch nets destroy them by the hundreds and thousands be-
fore we can catch them with gill nets.

Q. How was the catch of fish here this year, as compared with pre-
vious years?

A. It was not very good with us. The condition of the water has
something to do with gill nets catching shad. The shad have to come
in from the south. People twenty or twenty-five miles north of us had
better shad fishing than we had. The cause of this is that the salt. water
coming in from the inlets makes the water clear and the gill nets don’t
catch when the water is clear. The water coming down Roanoke River
and the other rivers is the water the shad is hunting for spawning, and
the consequence was that the shad passed right by our nets, went on,
and the people living up the sound made a good catch.

Q. Are you a pound net fisherman or a gill net?!

A. I have no interest in the pound net fishing.

Q. Are there any changes that you can suggest that would make the
Vann bill more efficient than it is?

A. I don’t think that I can. I would just say, give the shad all the
room that is fair and reasonable with the other people.

Q. How many thousand yards of gill nets are fished from Currituck
County for shad? :

A. Not a great many. I suppose there might have been 50,000 yards.

Q. What is the length of these gill nets?

A. We have two classes of gill nets; one, the stake net about eighteen

8

 

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114 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

yards long and will stand in about fourteen feet of water. Another class
is the anchor net, about 150 yards long.

Q. Do you fish both kinds in Currituck Sound in about equal numbers?

A. The anchor net is getting a little the lead. Now, understand me,
it seems to me to tax anything in Currituck Sound would be unreason-
able.

Q. Suppose, by their getting in the Fish Commission and having to
pay a small tax they could get the United States government to stock
the water here with black bass, how would you favor that?

A. I favor very much what Mr. Currie said.

MR. TATE.

You might establish a fish hatchery and three days of a northeast

storm would catch the last one. eae :
Q. Has Currituck County made any application to the United States

government to have any black bass put in these waters?
A. I, personally, made an application for a small supply of black

bass. We found out we could not get them, because we were too far
from the Fish Commissioner’s messenger’s car to keep them alive.
Dr. Moore will make a statement in regard to the fish hatchery.

DR. MOORE.

The statement which was made by Mr. Currie, in regard to the attitude of
the Federal Government towards those States and counties which have re-
mained outside of the jurisdiction of the Fish Commission, is perfectly cor-
rect. The United States Government, for over thirty years now, has been
hatching fish and distributing them broadcast throughout the country.
While we have had the power to hatch the fish, and while they have been
received with gratitude, we have not had the power to protect the property
we were creating. The United States Government, except in two or three

very restricted areas, has no jurisdiction over the fisheries proper. It could

not pass any legislation which would be effective in protecting the re and,
consequently, in a great many cases the money expended has been perce
away, because the fish put in the waters were not protected by the Sta
Two or three years ago this question became so critical, in connection w
the shad especially, that we were practically unable to secure eggs for Pe
purposes of artificial propagation. The fisheries in the lower waters, be ce
the shad enter the fresh water streams, became so dense; the nets were sé’
so closely together; that by the time the schools reached the upper waters
they were so reduced in numbers that the number of ripe eggs secured —_
*not enough to warrant the operation of the hatcheries. It was a ree
by several persons connected with the Federal Bureau that we could probably

secure some favorable action on the part of the States, by refusing to plant
in unprotected waters any fish whatever. This policy has, with a few ex-

ceptions, been followed for a couple of years. I think it has, at least, at-
tracted the attention of the States to the necessity of protecting the waters.

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 115

So long as we were able to obtain eggs and hatch them, while there was a
decrease in the shad fisheries, there was no danger of their being utterly
obliterated. The shad was in no danger of being commercially exterminated,
but, since the time came that the fish were prevented of themselves from
spawning on the natural nest and we were prevented from collecting the
eggs, very soon there began to develop a very strong probability that the
shad of the whole fisheries of the United States would be destroyed in a
very short time.

We have heard a great deal as to the reasons to be assigned for the de-
crease in the shad fisheries. The man who fishes one kind of gear, tells us
the man who fishes the other kind is the offender; another tells us it is due
to the closeness of the inlets. That the fish have not sufficient avenue to gain
entrance into the interior waters of your sounds and rivers is undoubtedly
true. As a matter of fact, I am of the opinion that it can be substantiated
by facts, gathered all along the coast, that the decrease in shad and some
of the other fish which run up our streams is due entirely to over fishing.
There has been reckless over fishing in all quarters. Pound nets have not
only been set in places where they ought not to be set, gill nets or stake nets
or anchor nets have not. only blocked the streams, but there are too many of
them all. It is practically impracticable to cut down the whole of the nets
fished, but it is up to every fisherman to see that nets are fished under such
circumstances and in such places that they will do the least harm ; that is,
where they will do the least harm to the maximum of fishermen.

One measure by which this can be brought about is, to have as much area
as possible under one supervision; not to have one county fished for itself
and the next county under the supervision of a man who has very stringent
ideas and enforces the laws unreasonably; but to have the whole State (in
fact, it would be preferable to have the whole United States) under one
general supervision; not to have unanimous laws for every locality, that
would be failure; but to have the laws everywhere enforced in the same way.
If you are going to have laws, they should be enforced; if you are not going
to enforce them, they should be repealed. That seems to me the most im-
portant consideration that this committee has before it.

We have heard considerable about the blocking of the inlets and their
effect on the fisheries. If there were not other regions than the coast of
North Carolina to consider, this might be a good reason for supposing that
the depletion of the fisheries, the reduction of the shad, was due to the very
small inlets through which the fish have to enter. But it happens that we
have along our coast very important shad fisheries which are not dependent
upon the small inlets; for instance, there is a particularly broad sweep of
water between Cape Cod on the north and Cape ...... on the south, twenty
miles across. What do we find in the shad fisheries of that region? They
became depleted until the hatchery at Brown’s Point hardly gets enough to
warrant its being opened. We find that the Potomac River and the shores
of the Chesapeake are lined with nets of all classes. Between Old Point
and the mouth of the Potomac there are fished no less than twenty-two
hundred pound nets, and then there are the gill nets. In the Delaware we
find the same state of affairs. There, too, you have a broad opening, the
whole distance between Cape May and Cape Henlopen, while the fisheries of the
Delaware River have fallen off probably more than here. In the Connecticut
River we have the same conditions. I am saying this largely for the benefit

 

 

 

 
 

 

 

116 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

of the committee, not so much to the individual fisherman of Currituck
County. I want to emphasize the fact that if you want to have your fisheries
here, however isolated they may appear to be, you can not act alone; you
have to get into agreement with the rest of the State and under the same
general method of administration. I hope you will all lend your best efforts
to bring this about.

Question by a Fisherman:—What would a hatchery cost us if we
wanted to have one ourselves?

A. What a hatchery would cost? It is impossible to give an estimate
of the cost of a hatchery without careful investigation of the grounds;
ordinarily a Pond Culture Plant, such as is necessary for the black bass,
would cost from $20,000 to $25,000 to establish, and how much it would
cost to operate it each year would depend upon local conditions. You
can not treat it in the same way as shad. You can not collect the eggs
in the open and fertilize and hatch them, but you must collect the fish
and allow them to spawn in practically natural conditions and hatch the
eggs.

Q. Would not that be the most practical way of increasing the num-
ber of fish in Currituck Sound?

A. I am not at all sure. I should say offhand that I rather doubt it.
The chief utility of black bass culture is in introducing the black bass
into regions where it did not before occur or introducing it into depleted
streams and allow it to spawn naturally and get the benefit of the fish
there. The black bass in Currituck Sound are not indigeous there.
They possibly drifted in from other waters; they have been introduced in
ponds, or, as is probable, a special plant of black bass was made there;
but in most of the waters of this region the black bass was not a native
fish. Without that inlet was there I should say, without a knowledge
of conditions at that time, that it would be absolutely impossible for the
black bass to maintain itself in Currituck Sound. I want to say here
that the idea that the salt water is an enemy of the black bass is cor-
rect. The salt water has a much more fatal effect than all the carp,
and, while speaking of the carp (I would say that that was uninten-
tionally introduced) I am not absolutely certain but reasonably certain,
that the Bureau of Fisheries, which brought this fish into this country,
did not introduce this fish into Currituck Sound.

As far as their eating the spawn is concerned, I don’t think the accu-
sation is entirely just. We have made some investigations in regard to
that by a man who labored for three or four years in his study of the
habits of the carp. He dissected a great many of them and only in a
very few instances did he find the black bass eggs in the carp. It is
only a very large carp that can eject a spawning black bass from the nest.
The black bass is a fighter from the start, and especially while guarding

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 117

the eggs. A big fellow could do it by simply his weight. When the carp
once gets into a community he generally stays there. The carp is not
without value, however. If there are many of them here it will pay you
to catch them at three cents per pound. In New York they bring a
considerably higher price. When I made an investigation of Lake Erie,
not so many years ago, I found that carp, in many cases, sold in the
New York markets, wholesale, at practically the same price as the black
bass. There is a market for carp in New York and in any cosmopolitan
city you will find all kinds of people who want all kinds of things.

MR. HARRIS,

Q. Have you ever heard of people catching oysters at any time in
Currituck Sound ?

A. None in my day. But there are shells now in the sound and my
father remembers when they had them. I heard ex-Governor Jarvis’
father say that he came in and out in a vessel and there were oysters in
Currituck Sound then.

MR. SCOTT.

I was in the oyster business in Pamlico Sound, dredging for oysters.
It has been four years since I dredged any oysters. When I first com-
menced dredging for oysters they were no trouble to catch anywhere ;
that was under the administration of Mr. White, who was Shell-fish Com-
missioner. There was not any culling done whatever. When I first
commenced to dredge oysters a man could get $300 worth right away.
If the oyster industry had been as well protected when I started as when
I quit there would have been plenty of oysters now.

Q. What do you think of an entirely closed season for five or six
years? What effect do you think it would have?

A. When the dredging was allowed (I think there was a mistake
made when they didn’t allow it any at all) the boats from the closed
counties would go through and catch them up in the counties which were
not closed. Carteret County doesn’t allow dredging, but licenses boats
to fish in other counties.

Q. Do you think dredging is injurious to the oysters?

A. I think too much dredging would have an injurious effect upon
the oysters; dredging of oysters has been a benefit to the oyster
industry, provided it has been judiciously handled. The nature of
oysters is that when cultivated and stirred up they get better. When I
quit dredging oysters there were rocks which before that you could not
get ten cents a bushel for, that I could get a dollar for when I quit. I
think dredging is beneficial and makes better oysters. If you allow the
oyster to lie still it will never improve. They need cultivation. There

a

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

118 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

are numbers of acres of bottom in Pamlico Sound today that could be
cultivated.

Q. What would be your idea to have a law that no oysters can be
shipped from North Carolina except in barrels?

A. That would make a hardship. I don’t know of but one or two
places in North Carolina that will produce barrel stock. Down at Swan
Quarter there is a place where, if you will allow the oyster to stay long
enough, it will make barrel stock.

Q. What is your idea of protection? What recommendations have
you to make to the committee?

A. Make a strict cull law and see that it is enforced. Have the shells
of the small oysters put back on the beds and you will have plenty of
oysters. :

Q. Would you have any restriction as to the time of oystering or
permit it to be going on for eight months?

A. Oystering commences about November first and stops April first,
before the spawning season. The spawning season is the month of May.

Q. Would you suggest any restriction upon the shipping of oysters
from the State?

A. I would suggest to allow no oysters to be shipped outside the State
under a certain size.

Q. What do you think of a three inch limit?

A. I think a three inch limit would be a good one,

Q. Don’t you think that 2 1-2 inches is too small?

A. I rather think so. Now that the rocks have been worked I think
three inches will be small enough. I don’t think it wise to allow dredg-
ing in one section and not in another. The men from one section will
go to another where dredging is allowed.

Q. Have you stopped because it was unprofitable?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you think that the ideas that Mr. Currie gave expression to of
general regulations of the oyster interest would be very much prefer-
able to local legislation ?

A. If you are going to have dredging at all, have it State-wide.

Q. You think that the oyster beds of the State should be opened to
dredging and that there should be no county limits?

A. I am in favor of the oyster beds being under State legislation.

Dr. Moore :—I think it would be a very wise thing if you would apply
that both to the oysters and fishing.

Mr. Scott:—I think if you would pass a law, to be effective in three
or four years, to take out all pound nets, it would work the greatest
good to the greatest number of people.

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 119

MR. EVANS.

I don’t suppose there is a man here who will not admit that a fish can
hear, but he is badly mistaken; he don’t hear any more than a brick-bat.

Q. What would-be your opinion as to the best thing to do for the
fishing industry ?

A. I don’t know. I think the suggestion of doing away with the
small mesh nets is the most important suggestion. I have seen men haul
up fish and cull out one barrel and leave the balance to spoil; and this is
on account of the small mesh nets. If they catch so many little fish
there are not so many to make large ones.

Q. What size mesh would you suggest?

A. I think one and a half inch mesh; nothing smaller than that.

Q. You mean for all kinds of nets?

A. I mean for the fishing in Currituck Sound. I don’t mean shad

Q. What nets are used in Currituck Sound?
A. Drag nets, pound nets, and seines. I don’t fish myself, but think a
great many people who use small nets will be benefited.

MR. ERNEST CAHOON.

I have been fishing for nine years, up and down the sound. I want
to say that the small mesh bar is what is ruining the fish today. It
catches-the small fish that can’t be used for commercial purposes. Do
away with the small mesh bar and have the large, and fishing will
increase within the next two years more than it has lost in ten. If you
will take away the mesh bar pound net, you will find that the fishing
industry in eastern North Carolina will prosper. People up the mouth
of the Scuppernong River are doing away with the small mesh bar. They
are using large bar. The small mesh bar pound net has done more harm
in the waters of Albemarle Sound than anything else that could be placed
there. The people on Hatteras are using large mesh pound net and,
therefore, I deem it necessary that the greatest thing that can be placed
before the people of eastern North Carolina is that of the large mesh
pound net for all kinds of fishing.

Q. You don’t have any sturgeon here?

A. No sturgeon up here at all.

 

 
 

 

 

120 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

HATTERAS MEETING.

Jury 18, 1909.

MR. NEWLAND.

Gentlemen of Dare County:—We have come through what seems to us a
great tribulation. To mountaineers like myself and my associates we thought
we had a pretty hard road to travel. While we look considerably sunburned

now, we were beautifully white about that hour and we all had a feeling of
uneasiness.

We are here, gentlemen, in obedience to an act of the Legislature, passed
at its last session, appointing a committee to visit the waters of North Caro-
lina and to converse face to face with the fishermen of this State. This
committee is composed of Judge Graham, Speaker of the House; Mr. Dough-
ton, Mr. Currie, and Mr. Stubbs, on the part of the House; and Senator Bar-
ringer, Senator Travis, and myself, on the part of the Senate. We also have
with us an expert from the Bureau of Fisheries from Washington, Dr. Moore,
who will talk to you tonight.

This is your meeting, not ours, etc.

MR. MEEKINS.

A year ago there was passed the Laughinghouse bill, which act took
the fish net down to 1 1-2 inch mesh, which was a great detriment to the
people here. We don’t use these nets in the spring of the year. The
small nets we use in the summer time and catch such fish as blue fish,
mackerel, etc. We use pound nets here pretty nearly altogether.

Q. What size net are you using now?

A. Inch bar, two-inch mesh.

Q. What size do you think it should be?

A. I think that it should be no larger than that. I think you save
fish by it, because you can take the large fish out and turn the small fish
loose.

Q. Is it practical when you fish your pound nets to separate the large
from the small and throw the srnall fish back in? Do they die in the net?

A. No; very few. Of course it is impossible when you catch many
but that you would kill some of them. Most always the people here re-
turn the small fish to the water. We generally contract here to sell to
different markets, Norfolk and Washington, and we generally have a
contract to sell a trout not less than 10 inches long.

With whom is that contract made?

Among the fishermen and the fish buyers.

What fish do you catch this time of the year?

Mackerel, trout, blue fish, ete.

What size nets are you fishing with now?

Inch nets or two inch mesh. Mesh means the long way. The

POPOPO

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 121

Laughinghouse bill made us fish 1 1-2 bar or three-inch mesh. With
these nets a fish that weighs a pound will gill into it, and one that
weighs three pounds will gill into it. We hardly caught any mackerel
last year, because they spoiled in the net.
~Q. When you fish a large mesh will the small fish pass through?

A. No; the mackerel forces the net worse than any other fish.

Q. The practical result of increasing the size of the net then is to
destroy the fish?

A. Yes. It destroys lots of them because they gill in the net.

Q. Are any fish caught here for fertilizing purposes?

A. No; none at all.

Q. How much would the refuse fish that have to be discarded amount
to in each year?

A. I can hardly tell; very few though, because you can turn most of
the fish loose if you want to, at least the small fish.

Q. Can you, when you have a very heavy body of fish in the net?

A. Yes. You have to dip them out with a small dip net.

Q. Do you think a man engaged in sorting out the fish as they are
turned out in the boat would take the trouble to throw the small ones
overboard alive?

A. We generally do it when we are dipping them in, and lots of times
men get down into the boat and throw them overboard. It is practically
impossible but what you will kill some of them; I don’t care what kind
of a net you have you will smother some of them.

Q. Is it not that the larger the quantity of fish the greater proportion
of small fish you kill?

A. Not all the time. It is according to the kind of fish you are catch-
ing.

Q. Do I understand correctly that you fish one size net during the
spring and another in other parts of the year?

A. Yes. Sometimes they have one or two small nets, but it never pays.
You catch more fish by throwing the larger mesh net. We use anywhere
from two to two and a half inch bar; the larger net is deeper and that
is a consideration.

Would the herring gill in the net?

No, they go right through.

How many pound nets are used in this town?

I don’t know?

Do you use principally pound or gill nets in catching shad?
Principally pounds.

How near are your pound nets set to the inlet?

We don’t set within two miles of the inlet. There was a limit
made by the Vann bill that covers certain grounds.

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122 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. I suppose you go to the full limit of that bill?

A. Yes, we set as close to the limit of that ground as the law permits.

Q. Have you any suggestions to make as to how near to the inlet
these nets should be set?

A. The laws of nature prohibit us from going near the inlet.

Q. How deep is your inlet?

A. I think it is about twelve to forty feet on the bar; of course it is
deeper than that in places.

Q. How wide is the inlet ?

One and one-third miles.

How is it as to oysters? Is any dredging done in this section?
Not here; very little oystering done here.

Those who catch oysters; do they use dredges or tongs?
Tongs; practically no dredging done here.

Why is that?

A. Hardly enough oysters here to pay.

Q. Was there ever any dredging done?

A. There has been a little in the sounds. We had a law that they
should not dredge inside of these rivers.

Q. From your observation do you think that there has been any
perceptible décrease in the fish that have been caught here during the
past five years? ‘

A. In some eases I think there have. In others I think there have not.

Q. In what fish has there been a decrease?

A. There has been a decrease in blue fish. There have not been any
large ones here in fifteen or eighteen years.

Q. Have you ever heard of a time when there were any blue fish here?

A. There are always some here; that is, in their season. We have not
had any large ones in over eighteen years.

Q. How do you account for the decrease?

A. I can’t tell. Some think the pound nets run the fish off.

Q. How is it with the mackerel? Is the supply as much as it was ten
years ago?

A. Why, yes. There were some ten or fifteen years ago. They either
go by us or to some other place; they don’t come here on the inside and
some years we catch more than we do others.

Q. Do you catch any black bass in these waters?

A. Very few; ‘none worth speaking of.

Q. When you speak of black bass you mean sea bass? That is a
different fish from the fish caught in Currituck County.

A. Yes, I mean black sea bass.

Q. Do you catch these on the inside or out in the ocean?

A. Now and then; occasionally one is caught on the inside.

OPOPOP

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 123

Are there many herring caught here?

Very few.

Has there been any decrease in the catch of herring?

I don’t think so. They never have caught many herring here.
What is the principal fish you catch here?

Butter fish and trout.

Do you see any decrease in the amount caught?

No, not as a general thing. There have been more trout caught
here this year than a year ago. One year they will miss and the next
year you will catch them again.

Q. Have you any suggestions to make of any particular way in which
the law should be changed or amended ?

A. I don’t have any at all.

Q. Have you any suggestions for the closed season, or do you think
the time for catching should be limited ?

A. I think there is a law in the statute book to that effect.

Mr. Meekins:—No special time as to when they shall fish.

Q. Can you suggest any time to stop catching shad?

A. I don’t think so here. Our fishing is about up by the time they
begin to catch above. Our fish are gone by the middle of April.

Q. Is there any sturgeon fishing from here?

A. None worth speaking of.

Q. Has the catch of sturgeon decreased here? Did you ever catch in
years gone by more than you catch at the present time?

A. They never fished for them here, at least not worth speaking about.
Once in a while they would catch one in a pound net.

Q. Why do you not fish for herring here?

A. I could not tell you, unless it is because the water is so clear that
they leave the nets and go on up the sounds, where they strike the fresh
water.

Do you fish a net of sufficiently large mesh to liberate the herring?
Yes; most of them.

Will they get out after they enter the net?

Yes, they will get out.

Will the shad do that?

Herring are the only ones that go out through the mesh.

Are there any other fish that will do that?

During shad fishing season we don’t fish for any other fish much.
. What is your view about putting all the counties under the same
law?

A. I am not able to say because I don’t know the conditions in the
other counties.

Q. Have you seen any benefit from the operations of the Vann law?

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124 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. No. I can’t say that I have.

Q. The fishing is about the same?

A. Of course it opens a place through here and lots of the fish go
through, and it acts as an aid for navigation.

Q. Has there been any increase in the number of shad taken here in
the last two years? Are you using more material than you did two
years ago?

A. No; there is not, according to the materials used.

Q. Are you using it in practically the same places?

A. No. We use small nets; ten years ago they did not fish any shad
pound nets out in the open sound; they fished them all inside the reef.

Q. Do you think that that has had any effect on the movements of the
shad in the upper waters during the spawn season ?

A. No. The law prohibits us from going any further from this reef
than 2,000 yards.

Q. Do these nets out there catch any more shad in proportion to their

size and length than they did before?
A. I don’t think so. They have longer stands of nets there now.

MR, W. L. GASKILL.

Q. Were the nets fished any nearer to the inlet before the passage of

the Vann bill than they are now?
A. No; I think not.
Q. What can you tell us about the oyster?

A. I never catch any oysters.

Q. Any oystering done from this place as a business ?

A. No.

Q. Have you any suggestions to make to us by which you think the
situation can be improved?

A. I don’t know of any.

Q. What is your view about making the same law apply to all the
counties of the State?

A. I don’t know much about the other counties.

Q. Do you ever fish in Carteret County?

A. No.
Q. Do the people from the other counties come into this county to

fish? ;
A: No. They don’t come in this county; they go in Hyde on the
other side of the inlet.

Q. Is Ocracoke or Hatteras the dividing line?

A. Hatteras.

Q. How long have you been fishing?

A. About ten or fifteen years.

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 125

Q. Do you see any decrease in the number of fish that are caught in
these sections?

A. Some years there’s a decrease; other years there’s a gain.

Q. How was the shad catch this season ?

A. The shad fishing this season was not quite as good as a year ago.

Q. Do you think the enforcement of the fish laws of the State should
be under one jurisdiction or be left to each county? Should all the
counties be under the control of the State in the enforcement of the laws?

A. That is a question I do not know how to answer.

Q. Do you think that the Fish Commission should have jurisdiction | )
over all the counties?

A. Yes, I think they should.

Q. What kind of nets do you fish?

A. Pound nets.

Q. What do you think of using the larger mesh nets? Do you think
that it would help matters? fk

A. Yes. I fished 2 1-2 inch mesh nets last year. ik |

Q. Suppose you were to use a two-inch mesh; what would be the
result ?

A. You would not catch any fish.

Q. What! would the fish pass out through the net?
A. Yes, they would.

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Q. Do you endorse what was said? Is there anything with which you
feel obliged to disagree?
A. Nothing at all. I think if we are allowed to have small mesh nets
in the summer season it is the only way we can get a living in fishing.
Q. Are you not allowed to fish with what you regard as the proper
size net in the summer?
A. We are allowed to fish an inch mesh net.

Q. T understand that you simply object to any change in the present
regulations in that respect?

A. Yes.

Q. You think the present law is satisfactory and don’t wish any
changes?

A. We object to any change in the present regulations.

Q. Do you yourself engage in fishing, or do you simply own the nets?

A. I don’t fish myself; I own the nets. I have fished them a year
or two back.

Q. Can you give this committee any information as to the movements:
of the shad in this vicinity? What part of the sound do they pass up?

A. It is hard to tell. I think the majority go up the North Sound
up to the north of Croatan.

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126 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Do you believe that the majority of the shad pass up outside the

reef 2

A. I think the majority pass outside.
Q. Can you give to the committee your reasons for that belief?

A. Well, the deep water leads out in the sound and I think they follow
that across on the shoals. :

Q. Are there any gill nets fished about here?

A, A few. :

Q. Do you catch considerable numbers of shad?

A. No great number.

Q. What is the reason that there are not more gill nets fished here ee

A. We have clear water down here and you can’t catch shad in gi

nets in clear water.
Q. The gill net is not effective in these waters, whether the shad are

here or not?

A. No.
Q. What has been your experience with the large mesh nets during

the summer months?
A. It meshes the salable fish and destroys more fish that we might

than the small mesh nets. : :
og Conld you give the committee any idea of the proportion of fish
that you kill that way?

. No, I could not. :
- How much additional labor would it entail on you or your fisher

men to remove these fish from the nets?
A. Iam not able to answer that question.

j : ,
. Would it be very expensive to fish that way
: It would be more expensive, because the sharks eat up the nets.

Q. The sharks will attack the fish in the nets and, in eating them, will

the nets? : ;
se Yes, The sharks will attack the fish that are gilled in the nets

ill destroy the nets.
ge you ie of any occasions where the small mesh nets have been
fished during the shad season ?
Four or five years ago, yes.
Has it been done during the past two or three years?
T am unable to tell. : :
Will you state that it has not been done during that time?

No. I am not sure.

What is your belief?

. I think some have been. i

_ Is it an uncommon practice or is it done very frequently?
_ No. I don’t think it is done very frequently.

rPOPOPOPOP

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 127

. Is it done frequently enough to work any harm to the fisheries?
No.

-Are you engaged at all in the oyster business?
No; I am not.

Is there any one in this house engaged in it?
I think not. We get very little out of oysters here,

POPOPS

MR. GASTON.
I plant some oysters.

Q. Will you be kind enough to tell the committee what you are doing

in the oyster business?

A. I am not doing much in the oyster business, I buy a cargo or so
once or twice a season to carry through to Norfolk.

Q. Do you plant any shells?

A. Yes, perhaps 150 or 200 bushels a year.

Q. In what locality do you plant these?

A. Right over here about a couple of hundred yards from this building
in a creek,

Q. In a creek?
A. Yes.

Q. Is there much bottom in this neighborhood which can be used for
planting the oyster?

A. No.

Q. If you could find considerable bottom in this neighborhood, do you

think it could be made a profitable industry ? :

A. They do as well there as anywhere in the State.

Q. Do you plant only in the creek or do you go to the bottom outside
the reef?

A. Only in the creek. In the sound there is so much grass that it

covers the oysters up and kills them. On the outside the oyster boats
dredged some years ago.

Q. Why? What is the character of the bottom?
A. Yes; it is a pretty good oyster bottom out where the rocks are, but
then it is no bottom for planting. The bottom is a kind of soft clayey

bottom. There are hard ridges out there, too. I think the shells seem
to pile up on the reef at times.

Q. Is this muddy bottom at all suitable for oyster culture?

A. I think so. It looks like the same bottom used in Virginia.

Q. What is the character of the oyster on the natural reefs out there?
Do they get fat and grow well?
A. They get fat out there.

Q. If oyster bottoms were leased from the State there, would it be
profitable ?

A. Yes. They grow pretty well there.

 

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128 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Would it be advantageous to dredge these grounds?

A. I don’t think so.
Q. It would not be possible for dredgers and tongers to go on these

grounds without a knowledge of the sound 2
A. I don’t think any one down here will try to plant any oysters out

there.

Q. For what reason?

A. There are not many oyster men around here.

Q. If experiments were carried out by the United States government
which would show that the bottom was suitable for oyster culture, do
you believe there would be any men in this county who would be likely
to take it up?

A. No. I don’t think there would be.
Q. You don’t think the experiments would be worth while?

A. They don’t seem to pay much attention to it. I think the State
had a load of shells put out in the sound twenty years ago. I don’t

know whether they amounted to anything or not.
Mr. W. W. Gaskill:—Do you have any recollection of any one trying

to see whether the planting of these shells was a success or rot?
A. Lhave no recollection of any one trying to see whether the experi-

ment was a success or not.
Mr. Moore:—I would like to ask Mr. Burroughs one or two questions

about the pound nets.
MR. BURROUGHS.

Q. How long a lead do you use in this neighborhood ?
A. Two hundred and fifty to three hundred yards.
Q. What size mesh do you use in the lead?

A. Five to eight inches.

Q. What do you use in the heart of the pounds?

A. About five inches.
Q. In setting these pounds, do you set them with both sides of the

heart open? Does the leader lead to the center of the pound of the heart?

A. In the summer season we do. In the spring, for shad season, we
have one side closed, generally the north side.

Q. You vary it according to the time of the year?

A. Some have both sides and some don’t.

Q. In setting your stands, does your leader ever overlap the pocket
and part of the heart?

A. As a general rule we start out from the corner heart stake.

Q. Is the summer fishing done with pound nets or with gill nets?

A. With pound nets? ;
Q. Do you think all the counties should be under the jurisdiction of

the fish commission ?

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 129

A. I hardly know what to say, but I do believe it ought to be.
Q. Don’t you think all the counties should be put under the same laws
and bear the expenses?

A. I think so. I don’t think they ought to be treated any worse than
any of the rest.

Q. You don’t think you ought to be treated any worse than any of
the rest? Do you think you are badly treated ?

A. No; not very bad. They came down on us last season by making
us have a larger mesh.

MR. GASKILL,

Q. You have not attempted to do anything in the way of cultivating
oysters?
A. Yes. When the water is only something like 1 1-2 feet deep I

‘have planted seed oysters and not shells.

Q. Were the oysters you spoke of buying in Carteret County eating
oysters or seed oysters?

A. I bought them for edible oysters, but I sold them to a party and
he bedded them.

Q. Is there much of that bedding done between Carteret County and
Lynnhaven ?

A. I guess those were the first load that has ever been carried to
Lynnhaven.

Q. What size were those oysters when you planted them ?

A. All sizes.

Q. You would not know how much they increased in growth in the
course of a year?

A. They don’t much more than hold their own. There is some mud
there which smothers them. Sometimes they grow as large as your
hand.

Q. How much would you say they increased ?

A. I would say they increased 1-3 in size.

Q. Is it a fact that the oysters were from two to three inches in size?

A. I mean they were the size like those which grow out on the rocks.

Q. As a rule, not much more than three inches long; after they have
been growing a year what size are they?

A. They would go from four to four and a half inches.

 

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130 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

SWANQUARTER MEETING.
Jury 15, 1909.

Meeting called to order by the chairman and object of meeting ex-
plained by Senator Barringer, who said:

Mr. President and Friends and Gentlemen of the County of Hyde:—You
doubtless know that the last Legislature passed a resolution appointing a
committee to come down in eastern North Carolina and to meet the fishermen
at different points, so that it might acquire information about the fisheries
in the eastern part of the State. We began the other day at Edenton the
investigation the Legislature has imposed, and then went to Manteo, to
Powell’s Point in Currituck County, to Hatteras, and from Hatteras we have
come to Swan Quarter. We are appointed because of the fact that we have
neither any information or interest in the fisheries. We are here to get
information from you, not to give information. We have a gentleman from
Washingtorl, Dr. Moore, who is an expert in the fisheries business, and he
may give you some information today. But we are here today to hear you
and to get you to give us some information about fishing in this particular
locality. The committee has never been in eastern North Carolina before,
and I confess to you, on my part, that it is a revelation to me. That these
waters are not filled with fish of every kind I can not understand. It seems
to me that you have every conceivable place where fish would swim and
raise their young. For some reason the fishing industry in North Carolina
is on the decline, and the Legislature, to increase the catch and the industry
in every conceivable way, appointed this committee to come here. We want
to hear from you. We care not whether a man is a speaker, just so he will
rise and give us all the information he has concerning this particular point
so that we can report to the next General Assembly. I will ask Senator
Mann if he can’t call out some fisherman to lead off, as he knows all the

people in this locality.

Senator Mann:—I once heard my distinguished colleague say that
what I don’t know about fish would fill a book. I came here more today
to hear Dr. Moore. After he has spoken I would suggest Mr. G. I.

Watson.
DR. MOORE.

It seems to me you are putting the cart before the horse. I would like to
hear from the men who have had practical experience in fishing in Hyde
County before I say anything at all. I must confess I know very little about
the local matters except about Beaufort. I have more or less acquaintance
with the fisheries along the other parts of the coast, but it is rather difficult
to make an application of general information without you know the par-
ticulars of the locality which you attempt to discuss. I think possibly that
the oyster industry of this region is or was quite an important one. I think
possibly I might say a few words when the oyster question is taken up. I
wish you to understand that anything I say is of general application; that I
have made no specific study of the conditions here; but from hearsay I apply
my general knowledge to such conditions as I understand exist. The oyster

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 131

fishery of all countries and of all States in which there has been an industry
which would amount to anything commercially, has gone through a process
of evolution. In the first place, there has been an abundant supply on the
natural beds. These beds, established many years ago by nature, in the first
settlement of the country were always very productive, although in a great
many cases the product of the beds was of inferior quality. The oysters grow
in a unique way, each successive generation being deposited in the waters
upon the generations preceding, which has resulted in piling up on our
natural oyster reefs a great body of oysters many feet in thickness. When
these are first worked of course an abundance of oysters can be readily ob-
tained. After a while they become reduced in quantity, it is more difficult
to secure a cargo in a very short space, but, on the other hand, the individual
oyster becomes superior. They become of a better shape because they are
not so crowded. There is not such a struggle between the individual oysters
to obtain the food which is floating about in the water. This food consists
of microscopic animals and minute plants, each of which is enclosed in a
small space. These little organisms have the power of floating in the water.
They can not swim well or very far. They can only sustain themselves so
far above the bottom and the current distributes them broadcast over any
general region. Where the currents are strong and the -bodies of oysters are
more or less isolated, the production of oyster food is sufficient to make
oysters of excellent quality. Where the number of oysters in any given
region is very large in proportion to the area of the bottom, naturally each
individual oyster obtains less food and the individual oyster is poor in
quality and inferior in value.

This happens in the history of all States and countries, for the oyster is
found in Europe, in Asia, in Australia, on the coast of South America, and in
various other parts of the world, not all exactly alike, but the history of all
these places is that wherever there has been a good market, the natural
supply has become depleted. In some of our States, such as New York, etc.,
the beds have become exterminated. There are a few beds in Connecticut
from which seed oysters are obtained. In New York the sites of the natural
beds can be determined solely from the shells on the bottom; the oysters are
practically gone.

Now, I wish to say to you that while it is important to protect the natural
beds, to do everything possible to make them last as long as you can, the
time will come when these beds will no longer be sufficient; they will gradu-
ally become depleted in spite of anything you can do. If they are carefully
guarded and the cull law is enforced, they will not be exterminated, but the
time will soon come when they will not supply the demand. Under such
conditions there is but one resort, and that is a simple one: the beginning
of oyster culture under private ownership, the State retaining its ownership
and deriving a revenue by renting out such places as are suitable for the
growth of natural oysters to those enterprising citizens of the State for the
purpose of carrying on the business under private enterprise and private
supervision. On those grounds seed shells or oysters may be planted. In
the beginning it is quite certain that the seed oysters will be better, because
they are soon ready for the market. Later on the supply of seed from the
natural beds will be found to be deficient.. In Connecticut the waters for a
dozen miles about are drawn upon to supply the seed, and yet they can not
get enough. Under these conditions it is necessary to deposit in the waters
the materials on which the young oysters or spat can collect. This is a very

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132 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

simple process. It involves merely a careful selection of the bottom, to see
that the shells will not become covered with drifting grasses dropped from
the water, and mud and, in addition to this, you should see that currents
flowing over these beds are sufficient not only to supply them with food, but to
carry to the new shells the minute fry or oyster in the first stages of its career.
An oyster in the first few days of its career is 4 swimming organism, covered
with numerous little hairs which, by waving around, help to move it about
feebly. It is more or less under the control of the currents and is carried
far and wide. We don’t know how many miles it will go, but I have suc-
ceeded in getting a set of spat on shells when, to the best of my knowledge,
there were no oysters within five miles. Now, this business has, in many
States, become an important one. In Connecticut practically all the product
comes from the planted beds; in New York the same thing can be said. The
few natural beds which New York had are depleted. They never have found
oysters in such quantities as are found in the South and in North Carolina;
but, as I say, today the oyster industry of New York stands at the top.
Maryland, which was endowed with a wonderful wealth of natural beds, has
fallen far behind in the race because she failed to recognize that these natural
beds would not be able to sustain the demand upon them. Little New Jer-
sey, with nothing like the productiveness of Maryland and Virginia, is today
an important oyster producing State.

Now, you are going to come to that in North Carolina. Undoubtedly all
of you here know that the beds of North Carolina have become sadly de-
pleted. Part of this is due, I believe, to the very reckless way in which they
have been fished. You have in the State a very good cull law. This law is
difficult to enforce, and in a great many cases is practically disregarded.

Now, in consequence of this you have taken from your natural beds not
only the oysters which would yield a good revenue, but you have taken the
young oysters and the shells, you have taken up the rich bottoms and carried
them in many cases to other waters. Now by the enterprise of a few persons,
in the beginning, and I hope there will be some in Hyde County who will
take advantage of it, this oyster industry which is waning can be brought
back not only to its primitive condition, but to a value far exceeding it.
There are bottoms on which oysters are capable of being produced which
never have produced them in a state of nature, because the bottoms in these
cases are composed of comparatively soft mud and the young oyster’s fry is
deposited in the silt. They are barren bottoms merely because there were
no hard bodies lying on the surface of the mud to which they could become
attached. These bottoms may be taken up by individual lessees with very
great profit to themselves and with corresponding profit to the State, for the
State’s profit lies in the welfare of her substances. All that is necessary is
to have some one go into this thing to succeed at it. A great many persons
will hold back until somebody else has reaped some of the harvest. I know
that the development of an oyster industry in this State is inevitable. I am
anxious to see its development come as early as possible. There is a market
for good oysters. Poor ones in many cases are canned. During the last two
or three years there has been a glut from the natural reefs, but those from
the cultivated grounds can readily be sold at a high price. Now, to show
you what can be done on a barren bottom, in a place where no oysters ex-
isted, I am going to relate some experiences of the United States Bureau of
Fisheries in Louisiana. About ten years ago we made an investigation down
there, and as a result published a report making certain recommendations.

patent: Atte Jcaad ina ictencrcre ia i i AT AT LOE NAGE GT LDA LLL LOO ET

 

PTT, NE A) FRI R  RES Ee Ap Mie ST AY a SRN «TT EO eta ie alia aa

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 133

At that time their laws were mere apologies for laws. The jurisdiction was
under local officers. Each parish (they call their counties parishes) regu-
lated its own fisheries. About the only thing that they ever did was to
impose some taxes on the fishermen. The taxes went into the general parish
fund and were lost sight of in the flood of taxes that came from other
sources. Nothing was done for the welfare of the fishermen. One of the
principal remedies was the changing of that system; to put it under one
control; to have the laws, if not uniform for the entire State, to be uniformly
enforced; to have one body reponsible for the enforcement of those laws.

This recommendation and the others, particularly those which were de-
signed to encourage oyster culture, were made effective by legislative enact;
ment in 1904, after six years of hard fighting on the part of the advocates
of the improvement of the law. The law was further amended and improved
in 1906. As a result of these laws, the oyster industry of Louisiana has
increased from 1904 to 1909 a little over one hundred per cent. In 1904
there were marketed from Louisiana waters approximately 1,600,000 bushels
of oysters; in 1909, the season just closed, there were marketed from these
same waters 3,600,000 bushels, an increase in five years of approximately
2,000,000 bushels of oysters.

Now, immediately upon the enactment of the laws which permitted of the
leasing of the tidewater bottoms of the State for the purposes of oyster
culture, a number of men took up leases, some small and some large. The
average was not more than twenty-five or thirty acres per lease. In 1909
there were about twenty-five hundred acres taken up in this way. All of
these have not been made productive, but from these bottoms which were
leased in the last five years, the oyster production is greater than the entire
oyster production of the State at the time when the law went into effect.

The people of Louisiana have been benefited to that extent. They have
been benefited to the extent of four or five thousand dollars per year. The
natural reefs are better protected than when under the old local jurisdiction,
and they are almost as productive now as they were ten years ago. When I
made an examination in 1898, I was convinced that many of these beds would
be absolutely depleted in less than five years unless something was done.
Some of them have disappeared, but most of them are in practically the same
condition that they were before. Now, with that in mind, the State of
Louisiana called on us to make some further experiments. They wanted
their people shown how to grow oysters. We went over the ground and
selected three localities; one in the extreme eastern end of the oyster region,
one about the middle, and one at the western end, so as to distribute the work
along the entire oyster producing region of the State. The local authorities
objected to the middle locality on the grounds that there were no oysters
there, but our rejoinder to that was that we wanted to show that we could
develop them there.

The conditions in Louisiana are probably a little better than here in
North Carolina. Inside of one year, or in about one or two seasons after
planting, we had marketable oysters. They were fat, deep shelled and round
in contour. The people of the locality were quick to appreciate what this
meant to them. They are an enterprising people, although they are not
generally so regarded. They are the descendants of an old French people
deported by the English from Nova Scotia. There was nothing slow about
the way they took hold of this proposition. They immediately made appli-
cation for leasing the bottoms and closed in on us so closely that at the last

 

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134 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

we had to go in on private bottoms. Last year sixty thousand dollars worth

of oysters were shipped from this area, which was before entirely unpro-
ductive.

The men who are doing this kind of work of planting oysters are worked
no harder today than they have been all the rest of their lives. When. they
began this work they were in debt; it was necessary for the banks in some
cases to advance the money to pay for their leases, and they had to borrow
the money necessary for them to have in order for them to begin work.
Today they are independent; they have their bottoms in productive condi-
tion. Some of them have been able to buy boats. I know one of those who
was to go over to another part of the State to buy a boat which was to cost
him seven hundred and fifty dollars. The merchant who gave me this in-
formation told me that some of them who, previous to the introduction of
this industry, were always in debt, were now loaning him money. Now that
shows what ean be done. It is going to require somebody to determine that
the thing is feasible. Somebody will have to make a beginning, but the man
who makes a beginning will make, if not a fortune, at least a competence.
That is one of the things I want to see the people of North Carolina take up.
I want to see them not only do all they can to protect their natural beds,
but I want to see them go into oyster culture, to have something permanent
that they can depend upon instead of being dependent for their livelihood
upon the precarious fishing of public grounds where everybody is free to
come in and despoil them if the patrol boat is not by. The oyster fishery of
North Carolina has, in my opinion, a future that is capable of the greatest
development. It is a future that will bring wealth to the people of the State
when its possibilities are understood.

Now, I want to say further, to those who want to obtain additional infor-
mation on this subject, that the Bureau of Fisheries at Washington, D. C., is
always more than glad to give information and advice to those desiring same.

MR. WATSON.

I have no direct interest in the oyster industry except just us the main
industry in which our people are interested in this locality. I live in a
section where these oyster, beds are quite large and the greatest com-
plaint which I hear is that these oysters are carried out of the State
into Virginia and Maryland. The trouble seems to be to regulate the
taking of these oysters. The oystermen who go into this industry go into
it for the money that they get out of it to supply their personal needs
and let the future take care of itself. I live in a section known as Gull
Rock. Most of the members of the past session know something of Gull
Rock. That section has been largely developed and they have no pro-
tection, and the gathering here today is satisfied that what we now have
will only last a little while.

Q. Does that law apply to all the oyster beds?

A. No, it only applies to those lying south of that line.

Q. Would you recommend that it apply to the whole county?

A. I am not prepared to say whether I would or not. The people
that I live among have been very desirous of having that restriction, but

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 135

I understand that the people who live in this section are not favorable to
it. I live at Wysocking and we are very anxious for it.

Q. Do they want to restrict simply the dredger or the dredger and
tonger ?

A. They want to restrict dredging; drive out the dredges.

Q. Are those who want the restrictions dredgers or tongers?

A. They are dredgers and tongers too, but most of them are tongers.
What I have said so far has been in relation to the public grounds. We
have some private grounds, but they have not been a success. Some of
those that have been planted have mysteriously disappeared. We can
not control those. I am not charging this as any lack of performance of
duty on Mr. Webb’s part and we can not control it until there is a
public sentiment of the whole people to obey the public laws; if one man
is allowed to take his oysters unlawfully and go free, another will do it.
Every man feels that he is protected -by his neighbor’s guilt. I don’t
think that it is uniform, but there is a great deal of it.

Q. What remedy would you suggest to that?

A. A better moral sentiment.

Q. What do you think this committee can do in regard to that?

A. I don’t think that you can legislate morals.

Q. Don’t you think a strict enforcement of the law would favor better
public sentiment ?

A. That is the question; whether a better enforcement would. The
question is getting a better enforcement.

Q. Have the punishment greater and have more men in the field?

A. That would make them more diligent to evade. You know these
whiskey distillery men have a great many friends who help them to
evade the law; it would be the same in the oyster business.

MR. BURROUGHS.

I can only endorse what Mr. Watson says, except our oystermen want
dredging; the fishermen are opposed to it.

Q. Is there a larger proportion of oystermen in this county than
there are fishermen ?

A. In my section there are more fishermen, but more of our oystermen
are dredgers.

Q. Do they also engage in fishing?

A. No.

Q. Do they have to dredge out in the sound at a great distance from
the bank, or near the bank?

A. They go out in the sound.

Q. Where do tongers get most of their oysters?
A. Around on the shore rocks, Gull Rock, ete.

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136 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Is there not a law which restricts the dredger to the lower water?

A. I think so.

Q. Are oysters increasing or decreasing there?

A. I have heard sound men say that there are more oysters there now
than there has ever been, but they are more scatterd.

Q. The statistics show that in 1901 the State received $27,000 for the
oyster licenses and most of it was expended in the payment of officers for
the protection of the industry, and this past year only $10,000 was col-
lected. Can you tell me why this was so?

A. I could not tell you why. I only know this much: the past season
there has been very little market. I was told that the supply of oysters
from the Chesapeake Bay was very abundant. The only demand was for
plants. In 1901 I don’t know what the condition was, whether it was a
scarcity of marketable oysters or not.

Were there any oyster canneries in this county at that time?

No. °

How long since were they here?

Closed six years ago.

Are there any near here?

There is one at Belhaven.

How many oysters do you suppose they canned last year?

The amount they canned was very limited, for canned goods has
been lower than for a number of years. I don’t know how many cases
but the output was very limited.

Q. Do you think it is possible that the demand for canned oysters
would be satisfied by canned fruit?

A. I don’t know.

Q. Do you know why there was so little demand for it?

A. The condition of the’ country; we had a surplus of oysters and no
market for them.

Q. Was the demand satisfied from Virginia ?

A. Not in this State.

Q. Are there many oysters shipped from this State in violation of
the oyster law?

A. If I had known of any I would have reported it.

Q. Having been in the business and taken an interest in it for some
time, can you tell us whether there was any shipment of oysters last
year for such purposes?

A. If there was I did not know it. I frequently heard there was. Mr.
Webb has an inspector at Elizabeth City who goes aboard the vessels
and inspects the cargoes there.

Q. I don’t suppose that any one would suggest that Mr. Webb had
been guilty of any non-performance of duty?

POPOPOPOS

 

 

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 137

Mr. Mann:—The only reports I have heard have been from oyster-
men who have been caught and punished for violation of the law. I
have repeatedly offered my services if they would furnish me evidence of
those who had violated the law. The charges have been from men who
have been convicted of violations themselves, and they would excuse
themselves by saying: “Why don’t the commissioner catch those other
fellows who are carrying seed oysters outside of the State?” I want to
say that I do not believe these charges, and I said: “Get me evidence and
I will see that Mr. Webb is impeached.” That evidence has never been
furnished ; it is, of course, hearsay. I have seen Mr. Webb in regard to
it myself, and told him if it was due to the laxness of his inspectors he
ought to attend to it.

MR. BRINN.

The ground has been pretty well covered by these gentlemen. I have
not been engaged in the oyster business very extensively. As far as the
dredge law is concerned I don’t know anything about that. What would
satisfy the people one day would not satisfy them tomorrow.

Q. Do the fishermen object. to dredging because the dredges interfere
with their nets?

A. I think that is the reason, and, too, they want to save the oysters
for themselves until they are through fishing. The tongers object be-
cause the dredger gets them all.

Q. The tonger objects because the dredger gets all of them?

A. Yes.

Q. Does this dredging have any injurious effect upon oysters; does it
kill a good many ?

A. I don’t think so. Captain Lupton is one who has dredged a good
deal and he says they are improved; where the young oysters live until
the succeeding season they are much larger and get to be of a much better
quality.

Q. To what is that scattering due?

A. To dredging.

Q. Does he cull them anywhere else except on the rock?

A. Yes,

CAPTAIN LUPTON.

The oysters that have been planted on Rose’s Bay have succeeded very
well, and, too, I want to agree with Dr. Moore that most of our beds are
depleted. Dredging hard bottoms practically digs them up and the only
thing to do today is to go into planting. I think that we have lots of
ground that should be taken up by the planters.

Q. Can you suggest any means by which we can get people to take
up these bottoms?

 

 

 

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138 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. Pass a law and put a gunboat on the grounds to keep people from
stealing them.

Q: Do you think that there ought to be a more strenuous patrol?

A. It would take a pretty good one.

DR. MOORE.

I want to say that the history that North Carolina has had in this
respect has been the history of the early experiments in other States. I
don’t know of a single place where oyster culture has been introduced
that people have not been molested. The people think that because the
oysters on the natural beds have been free the oysters anywhere should
be free to them. Even persons who are ordinarily conscientious will
think it is no crime to steal oysters. In a great many places even now,
in spite of the fact that there is a strong sentiment in favor of oyster
culture and against depredation of these cultivated beds, it is necessary
for these men to occasionally patrol their shores with rifles on their
shoulders. It is done even on Louisiana beds. There are always some
black sheep in a neighborhood who have a little beach, which they use
as a blind. He sells an incredible number of oysters from an acre of
bottom, holding this little lease as a reason for getting oysters from other

places.
MR. COHOON.

I don’t know anything about oysters. As far as I can tell about the
fish the laws we have suit all right. All we ask is to get the inlets open
and the narrow sounds, so as to give the fish a chance to come in.

In what part of the county do you live?

Right here.

Do you fish pound nets?

Yes, pound nets.

How would you recommend that the inlets be kept open?

T don’t know, unless you have a law to stop it.

Has an attempt ever been made by the county officers?

I believe they claim they try to keep them open. ;
How has the catch of fish been the past season, as compared with
that of two or three years ago?

A. We did not have any shad here during the past season. I don’t
suppose there was more than half as many.

Q. Any worse than it was two years ago?

A. Over half.

Q. Was it worse than it was the preceding season ?

A. I think so. I believe our inlets are getting filled up so that the
shad can’t come in.

OFOrOPOPO

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 139

Q. Would you suggest that some more fish laws be passed trying to
keep fishermen from fishing too near the inlets?

A. Yes; they are fishing too near the inlets. The bulk of the nets are
in front of the inlets, and when the fish come up they turn back and go
out to sea. This applies to Ocracoke and Oregon inlets.

Q. Does it apply to Ocracoke and Hatteras, too?

A. There is just no place left open.

Q. Are the channels blocked up with nets in Ocracoke and Hatteras?

A. I don’t know for certain.

Q. Is the inlet at Hatteras blocked more on the Hatteras side or the
other side?

A. I don’t know anything about it.

Q. Whichever one is more blocked do you think it ought to be opened
up?

A. I think the inlets ought to be opened up and give plenty of room
for the fish to get on the inside.

Q. Do you think the cost of getting these inlets opened should be
borne by just the county in which the inlets are or by all the counties
of the State?

A. There would not be much cost about it. Just draw a line and pay
for it. ;

Q. What sort of fish do you catch principally up here?

A. In the spring, shad.

Q. Do you catch any blue fish?

A. Very few.

Q. Do you know of any shad or herring being caught at Ocracoke
Inlet?

A. Not very many; they do catch some.

Q. Has there been any decrease in the kind of fish you have been
talking about?

A. Yes, for the last two or three years it has been on account of the
fresh water. We had lots of rain, which has run the water out of the

swamps into the sounds. There are more fish there now than there have
been for the past two or three years.

Q. Are there any shad in Pamlico River?

A. Yes, a good many.

Q. Do they go up there to spawn?

A. Yes.

Q. Do the nets in that river affect the run of shad up the river?

A. I don’t think so. I think the drift nets have something to do with

the fish. The river is very narrow and nets drift up the river all day
and night too.

 

 

 
 

 

- 140 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Do they keep any passage-way open?

AyY es,

Q. Do you believe it would do any good to plant any young shad in
Pamlico River? Do you think it would benefit you if the shad were
planted in Pamlico River, and do you know if the United States Bureau
of Fisheries have planted any young shad in the river ? :

A. They say the shad will go back where they hatch, and if so it
would be a beriefit.

Q. Do you think that you should have more fish laws?

A. Yes, I think it would be a benefit to us. a

Q. Would you be in favor, in order to replenish the shad in these
waters and other waters of the State, of putting the control of these
waters under the State Commission?

A. No. Be
Q. Dot’t you think they ought to have a law providing that the laws

be enforced and that these inlets and rivers should be kept free and
open for the passage of fish ?
A. I think the narrow sound should be kept open and the rivers

where the fish go to hatch. We ought to have at least one-third. Com-
mence at Bath, the river is narrow there and the fish, when he gets

through, is making his way up to the fresh water to hatch. When he
gets there he ought. not to be bothered. There is plenty of water down
below, the sound is wide, and when he gets up there he ought not to be

bothered.
Q. Do you, or do you not, know whether one-third of the channel of

Hatteras, New and Oregon inlets, and the section of waters up the
sounds, have been kept open, or whether nets have been set further than
they have ever been set before, during this past season 4

A. Very few nets are set in Pamlico River.

Q. Do you know whether the nets in Pamlico River have been set

according to law?

A. I think not. EE,

I am neither a practical fisherman or oysterman, but there is one
thing that I would like to call your attention to, and that is in regard
to the planting of oysters. In 1905, when I was in the House, we got
through this bill authorizing the raising of oysters, and we contem-
plated then that it would be a great industry in the State. We still
think it will be, but it will be necessary for the State to protect these
oyster bottoms, and when the State leases a bottom to a man she ought
to protect that man. Give better control to the waters than they have.
There is not a sufficient number of inspectors to control these industries.
If the State will guarantee to protect the oyster bottoms when it leases

 

 

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 141

them, I believe the people of this section will be interested in planting
oysters, and I believe the people from other sections will come in. In
regard to fishing I know absolutely nothing, and can not speak at all.

DR. PRATT.

I might say here that they might have refused to guarantee a lease
in 1907; now they do guarantee you a lease after it is once taken up.
After you once take your lease from the State there is no chance of any
one taking the ground away from you.

MR. BRINN.

I believe that the people now observe the law closer than they have.
I don’t believe that we will have the same trouble in the future that we
have had. :

Q. Has anybody been convicted of taking oysters out of the beds
when they should not?

A. I think so; but I think there has been a disposition on the part
of the officials here to be too lenient, on account of the sentiment of
helping those who were convicted. The people feel that the oysters
belong to them, and do not feel that they are violating the law when
they take oysters from the bottoms, and, for that reason, the officials
have not imposed the punishment they should have. If they had been
a little more severe with those, the conditions would have been im-
proved more rapidly.

Q. Do you think they make the way of the transgressor hard enough?

A. I would advise a better enforcement of the law, and I believe the
conditions would justify that now.

Q. What do you think of the idea of consolidating the oyster and
fish commissions? Don’t you think we could have a more efficient con-
trol of it than when we are divided ?

A. It would seem to me that it could be done with less expense and
would be better for the people. I don’t know anything about the work
of the fish and oyster interest, but it seems to me that there has been an
improvement here in the sentiment.

Q. Are there any suggestions you can make to us as to any amend-
ments to the present law?

A. I have thought very little about it. I have been interested only
as a citizen. I would think that a better enforcement of the law would
be the only thing needed.

MR. CRADLE.

Q. What about the enforcement of the law?
A. IT don’t know; I think if we had more inspectors we would be in
better shape to handle the oyster industry.

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142 HE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Are you an oysier inspector at present ?
A. No, sir. ;
Q. What do you think about the increase in the catch of oysters in

the last five years?
A. We have had the oysters, but no market. I believe we have as

many oysters as we ever had.
Q. What do you give as the cause of the stopping of all the can-

neries in this section?
MR. MANN.

One of the things that I refrained from saying has been brought to
the front and emphasized, and I want to add one more word. Mr.
Currie’s idea as to the duty of the State to protect its lease is exactly the
same as the landowner’s to protect his tenant. When you plant a crop
and invest your labor and such other investment as is required for the
proper working of the crop, -when trespassers come the tenant should
not be compelled to go to the court to enforce his rights, but should go
to the landlord. Whenever the State undertakes to protect the oyster
bottoms and leases in just such an independent manner you will find
that the oyster industry will be one of the most profitable industries
in the State.

Q. Would it not be difficult for a landowner who had fifteen or
twenty tenants and one of them had violated a law and been indicted

and the others were sympathizing with the other fellow, would it not

be difficult to enforce the law? Ay
A. Tt would, but landlords have these difficulties, and it 1s a poor

landlord who would not right the trouble.

Q. Is not a local interest making it difficult to enforce the regula-
tions?

A. It would be, sir, and therein lies the difficulty of making these
enforcements. The people don’t feel any moral turpitude in violation
of these statutes from the fact that previous to the enactment of these
statutes the people felt that they had a right to these. This is not due
to any inherent remissness on the part of the people.

Q. You think there is a more healthy sentiment in regard to it?

A. I am sure of it, and I am sure that the less responsible people
who have violated these laws can charge up some part of that to the
part of the community who ought to have frowned down these things
instead of giving tacit encouragement. So long as my firm held aloof
from serving the State in this matter a conviction was never brought
about. Since we have taken it up, however, I am positive there has not
been 10 per cent of the violations that there were before that time. I
want to say one word in regard to the fish. One of the conclusions that

ancy NCC, an

 

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 143

I draw from the small attendance is the fact that our people are gen-
erally satisfied with the conditions as they are. We are not quarreling
among ourselves. If you will get the inlets open and the narrow sounds
are not blocked with nets, I think our county should bear its propor-
tionate part of the expense. I am not sufficiently familiar with the fish
law to say what it would be. The jealousies that have existed hereto-
fore have been in the Albemarle Sound and the people of Dare County.
And I want to say, in passing, that the Dare County fishermen are the
keenest people I ever saw; old Brother Smith, who is dead, was the best
lobbyist I ever saw. It is my observation that our people have been very
well satisfied with the Vann bill: they are dissatisfied at the emascula-
tion of that bill by the repealing of that part of the bill providing for
the confiscation of nets. They think there should be a means provided
for the enforcement of the law. There is complaint that the men who
have the enforcement of the law have discriminated in favor of
certain interests. “Our people are very well satisfied with the regula-
tions. They have heretofore sent their representative to the Legislature
telling him to keep us out of the taxes. I think whatever protection
comes to us through the enforcement of these laws our people should
bear their proportionate part of the expense. We have less reason of
complaint than the people who have narrower waters. As to the uniting
of all these interests under one general head, I think that is a good
suggestion.

Q. How would it do to pass a law establishing a Bureau of Fisheries,
similar to the Bureau of Agriculture, with the power in this board to
establish such rules and regulations that may best suit the different
localities and let them appoint a sufficient number of inspectors to look
after these oyster interests?

A. I think your suggestions are admirable, and, if carried out in the
spirit in which made, it would be all right, but this oyster commission
especially has been the football of politics in this section. There is
some feeling that Hyde County is not treated right if it does not get
the commissioner. The same condition exists elsewhere. I believe that

. if the State will undertake independently the enforcement of the fish

and oyster laws and regulations of the nets, so that the old and expe-
rienced fishermen can’t take advantage of the new ones coming in, that
it would be a great help.

Q. Is there a law here that you can dredge for oysters in part of
your sound, but cannot in another part?

A. Yes.

Q. When fellows in the prohibited territory come up on the terri-
tory that is not prohibited is not there going to be some trouble?

A. No, our people have never had trouble about that. I want to say

pS area a aaa eae Na v poor

Se

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144 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

for the Dare County people that they have never made any kick on our
people going up as far as Roanoke Marshes and setting their nets. You
can’t pass a law that will keep people from going from one locality to

another to catch fish and oysters.

WASHINGTON MEETING.

Jury 16, 1909.
Meeting called to order by the Chairman and object explained.

CAPT. DAVE GASTON.

I don’t know that we can do anything more than we did at More-
head. I really think, though I do it myself, that fishermen ought never
to be allowed to leave a stake in the river after the fishing season is
over.

Q. Is that on account of navigation or on account of fisheries?

A. On account of navigation. It is right much trouble after you
have fished a whole season and have not done anything to pull those

stakes out.
Q. What kind of fish do you catch here ?
A. We catch everything that will go in a: pound net; shad, herring,

rock, mullets, trout, ete. :
Q. How was the catch of shad last spring as compared with the catch

of previous years? 4
A. It has been smaller every year for three or four.

Q. How do you account for that?
A. I think there are so many catching them that they have caught

them up. Where there used to be one or two nets twenty-five years ago,
there are ten today.

Q. I presume we cannot remedy that, but have you any recommen-
dation to make as to how far the nets shall be from the shore or how
far the channel shall be left open ?

A. No. If you go down in Pamlico River where my nets are set you

could not tell I set any. They go out from 600 to 800 yards.
Q. How is it with your neighbors? Do they go out any farther than

you do? ‘
A. No, about the same.
Q. What is that point?
A. Small’s point.
Q. How wide is the river at that point?

A. About two and a half miles. No deep nets used at all at this

point of the river.
Q. How far do you go out in the river?

 

FEO RE ERI RE NTN IIE ELT SS RIF ETE I RE TE TL OME ES PT EET Stones

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 145

A. We go out from 600 to 800 yards.

Q. Do they fish on the opposite side of the stream to the same length
as that?

A. Yes, about the same.

Q. What sort of nets do they use upon that point?

A. Nothing but small mesh nets.

Q. How has the catch of shad and other fish been during the past
few seasons?

A. It has been the best catch I have known of rock and white perch.
We would not have made our grub this year if it had not been for rock
and white perch.

Q. How far above here is it to the spawning grounds of the shad?

A. I think they spawn all along as soon as they get in the river.
It is owing to the freshness of the river.

Do you catch ripe shad at your fishery?

The latter part of the season.

The eggs will run from the shad that you catch?

I don’t know. We happen to get some they call run-down.

Did the Government put any shad in this year?

. No: My idea for the increase of fish is to make everybody quit
fishing at a certain time, say the 20th of April. That is the time the
spawning season comes.

Is there any rule set here for the time at which to stop fishing?
They say the 10th of May. We get out by the first of May.

Are all the nets pulled out by the 10th of May?

I think they are. I don’t know of any after that time.

Those are simply the shad nets?

Yes.

Do you think they ought to be stopped before that time?

Yes.

How about having the closed season begin the 20th of April?

I think the 20th of April would be advisable.

Would you recommend that you have any closed season for shad?
I don’t know much about the other kind. I fish up the river and
the others come in the sound. I don’t know what spawning season the
trout and other fish that come in have. I know we don’t catch the
trout we did ten years ago. We have had salt water up here and they
don’t come and sturgeon have played out entirely.

Q. How long since you have got any sturgeon in these waters?

A. It has been six or seven years.

Q. How far below here is it before they begin fishing for sturgeon?

A. IT don’t know. They commence about the 1st of July, but I have
not seen any this season.

10

POoPOPO

POPOPOPOPOPO

 

 

S55 ART PUNT TRI LNT I ND A
 

 

146 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

How far below Washington are the sturgeon nets set ?

They are set all down about six or seven miles.

In the last six or seven years you have not had any sturgeon ?
None at all.

Are there any shad caught below the Tar river bridge?

More caught above the bridge than is caught below.

What becomes of those that are caught below Washington ?
They come to Washington.

How far up do they catch shad?

. They go clean to the Falls, Rocky Mt.
Q. This season, how far up is the farthest that you have heard of

their being caught?
A. I don’t know. The men that buy them say they come from way

up the river.

Q. They are building a bridge across the sound and some of the
fishermen think that the bridge interferes with the shad going up the
stream. What effect do you think these bridges have on the shad going

up stream ? :
A. I don’t think a fish would stop for a bridge unless there was

some noise. +
Q. One gentleman said that the fish could not hear, What do you

think about that?

A. I know they can hear. :

Q. You do not think the bridges interfere with the passage of the
fish ?

A. No.

Q. Do you think there ought to be a closed season for mullets and
fish of that character? :

A. I don’t know. I don’t fish for that kind, but I think there ought
to be. The trout comes in the river along about the first of June for
that purpose.

Q. You thought that the recommendations of that Convention at
Morehead were very good?

A. I thought so.
Q. Some of them asked that their county be exempted from that

bill. Do you think we ought to have a fish law applicable to the whole

State?
A. T don’t know. I was not over there, but I thought they did about

as good as they could do.
Q. What about the size of the mesh ?
A. I think everybody ought to be allowed the same size net and

everything. Every man should have the same size mesh.
-Q. What can you tell us about the oyster ?

POPOPOPOPO

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 147

A. I don’t know a thing about them except that they are good to eat.

Q. You are not engaged in oystering at all?

A. No.

Q. What would be your idea as to the best means of promoting the
fish industry in this part of North Carolina?

A. Only quit catching them.

Q. You think there should be a closed season ?

A. Yes. I think it ought to be a State law. Not for us to stop, but
for all.

Q. Would your idea be that the law provide for a closed season to be
applied to all the counties of the State?

A. All the counties in the State so that all might be treated alike,

Q. Have you any idea of the general sentiment of the other fisher-

men of your county? Do they believe the same?

A. I think they do.

Q. What season and what time of the year and how long would you
suggest that the closed season be?

A. Anyway a month, especially for shad and herring.

Q. Do these other kinds of fish spawn at the same season that the
shad and herring do?

A. I don’t think they do. We have a red fin that spawns earlier than
that. He is a native fish of this river. He is like a white perch except
his fins are red.

MR, HAWKINS.

I beg to be excused. Part of Mr. Gaston’s talk I think is all right,
and with part I differ. I think that by fishing these 3-inch mesh, I
think it is against us. We destroy more fish than we would by using
1j-inch mesh. A law was passed several years ago for a 3-inch mesh.
Most of us did it, some didn’t. I think furthermore it would be better
if you would make them all take out the pound nets the last of April
or the 1st of May and not set any more until along in the fall. Let the
fellows at the inlets comply with that.

Q. What do you think of a law that was passed this year keeping open
and free from all nets the inlets for a mile on each side, and one-half the
width of the sounds and the bays and rivers leading into the sounds?

A. Two miles at our inlet don’t do any good. Two miles is not any-
thing. If you cannot put them away 8 or 10 miles it will do no good.
There are tributaries which they will take advantage of. Of course
they have the channel open.

Q. Have you ever fished in the inlets?

A. No.

Q. Have you been there at a time they have been fishing?
A. No.

 
 

 

 

  

148 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. You have not a personal knowledge of what you state?

A. Not a bit.

Q. Would you tell the Committee upon what you base these state-
ments?

A. From what I have read. These men go to work there and set
pound nets, catch the fish; then they will at the season of the year they
have to take out, along the latter part of August, they will pull out
their nets, but, if you understand me, they go to work and hedge up
such places. We cannot go in the channel and they can’t go in the
channel in the inlet, and we go just as close as we possibly can.

Q. You think, then, that there ought not to be any pound nets set
within 6 or 8 miles of the inlet?

A. No, sir.

Q. You think there ought to be a free passage clear on up the sound.
No nets,,either gill or pound nets, ought to be set there?

A. Yes, a free passageway up the sound.

Q. You think that one-third of the sound and river should be kept
free for the passage of fish?

A. I think one-third of the sound and river should be kept free for
the passage of fish.

Q. Has there been an increase or decrease in the catch of shad for
the past few years?

A. A decrease.

Q. To what do you ascribe that?

A. In regard to shad and herring, we have been catching up to the
last four or five years right smart.

Q. Are there many more persons engaged in fishing now than ten
or twelve years ago?

A. Yes, I think so.

Q. How many would you say?

A. I think there are some more.

Q. How many more nets are used now than there were ten years ago?

A. In regard to pound nets, I don’t think in Pamlico River there are
as many, but for drag nets, ete., I think there are more. I don’t know
anything about the sound.

Q. The drag nets are what some of us call seines?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the length of those nets?

A. From 150 to 300 yards. Most of them you will say upon an aver-
age will go about 200. Some that they use in the ereeks are shorter.
When you see them in the sounds and rivers they are longer.

Q. Have you any experience in fishing upon the bridge?
A. None.

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 149

Q. What can you tell us about oysters?
A. Not a thing.
Q. Do you think it would be advisable for all the counties to be
under the same law and under the control of the Fish Commission ?
A. Yes, I think so.
MR. BRINSON.

Q. How long have you been engaged in fishing?

A. About thirty-five years.

Q. Where are you fishing?

A. I am fishing in the river and sound.

Q. How far below the town do you fish?

A. I fish anywhere from here to about 50 or 55 miles in the sound.

Q. What has been your observation as to the increase or decrease
of the fish within the past ten years?

A. The increase of some different fishes is better than it has been
for the last ten or fiteen years, and the decrease of some others is noticed.
Shad and herring are scarcer.

Q. What fish have increased ?

A. Rock, chub, redfin and robins have increased some.

Q. Can you suggest any means by which we might increase the num-
ber of those fish and promote the industry?

A. I think we ought to have a spawning season from the first of May
to the first of September. There should not be any fishing at all in
the Pamlico River.

Q. Do the shad spawn in these waters earlier than they do in Albe-
marle Sound?

A. I could not tell you.

Q. As far as shad are concerned, do you think it would be fair to
take the shad nets out by the 20th of April?

A. I think the shad nets have but very little to do with it in these
rivers. I think it is where they are caught up at the inlets before they
get here.

Q. Do you catch many shad in these waters that are ripe and ready
for spawning?

A. No, we don’t catch very many she shad that are ripe.

Q. Where do you think the spawning grounds of the shad are in
these waters?

A. It depends upon the condition the shad is in when it strikes the
water.

Q. How high up do you think the majority of them go before they
spawn ?

A. It depends upon the water that is in the river when they come in.
As soon as they strike good fresh water they begin to spawn.

 

 

 
 

150 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Do you think there is more spawning above the town than there
is below?

A. I think so.

Q. What do you think about the management of the fish industry?
Do you think it advisable that all the counties of the State be under
the same law?

A. It is a hard chance to make a law to suit all classes of fish. Fish
are like every one else; they have certain times of the year to do their
spawning. What would suit one fish would not suit another.

Q. Do you think it would be best to have all counties under the same
aw?

A. Yes, I think so.

Q. Do you think the shad industry would be helped if the Govern-
ment would put in from 5 to 10 or 15 million fry in the river?
‘ - I do not think the Government does one bit of good by planting

sh,

Q. What became of the shad that were put in?

A. There was about 68,000,000 planted in front of my house about
three years ago, and I think they have been getting scarcer ever since.

Q. How about the shad that are spawned up here?

A. I don’t think that they do. We catch a plenty of shad that has
been in Neuse River.

Q. Do you mean there is no certainty that they will come back to
this river?

A. Yes.

Q. From which one of the inlets do you think most of the fish come
into these waters?

A. I could not tell you.

Q. Do you fish on the north side of the sound?

A. Yes, mostly.

Another Fisherman :—I should think Ocracoke.

Q. Do you think there are any ways in which the number of shad
can be increased except by stopping the fishing at the inlets? You
don’t think the fish hatchery does much good?

A. No, I don’t.

Q. How long since the last fish were deposited by the hatchery?

A. I could not tell exactly. Year before last there was a boat around
here, but she did not do much work.

Q. For how many years had that been going on?

A. I could not exactly say. Not many years. In and out for the last
eight or ten years.

Q. Do you think that the length of the nets or the distance which

they are permitted to go out into the sound ought to be restricted ?
A. Yes.

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 151

Q. How far do you think they should go out ?
A. In what part of the Sound?

Q. In any part?
A. I don’t think we ought to have a stand of nets stationary off shore

more than 300 yards, beginning so many feet from the mainland. If
you give so many feet from the depth of the water they will go on out
in the river as far as they want.

Q. Do you mean that the nets should not extend more than 300 yards
from the shore ?

A. 300 yards from where deep water begins.

Q. What is the width of the river down there where you speak of?

A. I guess it is about two miles; from that to four or five.

Q. What kind of fish do you fish for?

A. I fish for any kind I can catch. I fish the year through for a
living.

Q. What kind of fish do you catch now?

A. This season we catch a few speckled trout, a few rock, a few
redfin and a few chub. We don’t do much on the fresh water fish
on the river shore.

Q. Do I understand you to say that you think it would be best for
the fishing industry to take out all nets from the 1st of May to the 1st
of September?

A. Yes, our drag nets, set nets and drop nets ought to be kept out of
the tributaries of the Pamlico River from the 1st of May to the 1st
of September. If you turn them loose inside of a month after they
spawn they tear up the grass, which destroys the eggs, and will mean
that you will have no fish. Our inlet fishing ought to be made to come
out by the last of March and not go back until the last of August.

Q. Don’t you know that is the only time they have to catch the salt
fish down there?

A. No, they catch them there in the fall of the year.

Q. What time of year?

A. I don’t exactly know. >

Mr. Meekins:—The men fishing there begin the 1st of May until the
1st of September.

Q. Do you get any large number of down-run shad in your nets?

A. I don’t think I have caught a down-run shad in two years in
my net. I don’t use anything but a 200-yard drag net.

Q. Do they get them in the pound nets?

A. I don’t think they catch many run-down shad in a pound net.

Q. What is your idea in regard to the closing of the creeks? How
long ought they be closed?

A. I think from the 1st of May to the 1st of September, and they

«
a Tae a a at ae eR Ria Sa a a Ro

 

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.

 
 

152 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

should be open the balance of the winter. My idea in these creeks is
to close them up the 1st of May. That don’t cause the fishermen to go
into one set of creeks and fish them to death.

Q. What would you recommend to protect the fish that go up Pam-
lico River ?

A. You can only protect one or two kinds of fish—the shad and
herring.

Q. Don’t you think at certain times the channels ought to be open so
that they could have a free passage up the river? :

A. The channel is open. There is not a net fished in the channels
unless it is a little set net.

MR. E. B. MOORE.

After leaving Washington and getting up above here where the river
is narrow you will see that the Pitt County fishermen every one fish
a seine entirely across the river. They keep the whole river shut up
most'of the time. They fish with a seine that reaches entirely across
the river. The whole waterway is shut up day and night, and I have
heard on Sunday. Sometimes they have two nets playing in the same
hole. When one comes out the other goes in.

MR. BRINSON.

Q. Do you think in Tar River there ought to be a regulation that
_there should not be but so many hauls a day and that the nets should
only extend a certain distance in the river?

*A. I don’t know how you would go to work to change it. Lots of
times he makes a lot of hauls and don’t get any.

Q. How would you suggest that a regulation could be made to let
a portion of the fish pass on up to the higher waters?

A. I think a portion of them already goes up there. We have only
a small portion here. If a hundred shad are going up the river and
50 fishermen get one apiece, then the other 50 go on up the river. We
don’t have many shad and herring in our waters, and they have not
been here for the last eight or ten years. The cause of it I do not know.

Q. Have the herring decreased in the same proportion to the shad?

A. I think they have. Our shad and herring increased some this last
spring. I think probably a third.

Q. How wide is Tar River where they throw the nets all the way
across ?

A. I suppose 200 or 250 yards.

Mr, Moore:—One hundred and fifty yards, or in some places not 150
yards.

Q. If you cannot have a law to keep them out of the river, how

Sony ee

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 153

would it do to have a law that you can fish every other day for six
days?

A. It would be a great deal better if they were not allowed to fish
every day in the narrow waters.

Q. How would it do to have a law saying you could not fish in these
narrow waters say from Friday night at 6 o’clock until Monday morn-
ing?

A. I think that is about as near as you could get at it. The people
down here only fish about one-fourth of the water, I think from Satur-
day morning to Monday morning.

Mr. Swindell:—There is a law now to that effect.

Q. What is the extent of the fisheries in Pitt County?

A. Not very many. ;

Q. What is the number of fishermen engaged ?

A. I think there are about six seines fished in Tar River.

Mr. Meekins:—In the spring of 1908 I visited all the seines of Tar
River, and there were nine.

Q. Are those seines fished by farmers or by men who make a living
by fishing?

A. Fished mostly by farmers. They only fish for about two months
in the year,

Q. During these two months do they depend on fishing for a living?

A. They fish and farm together. The farmers who have fishing
shores along the river employ labor.

Q. The farmers who live along the river employ fishermen?

A. The largest fishery above here is J. O. Proctor’s of Grimesland.
They fish during the shad season when the water is not so high. They
have a little seine and I will guarantee they will catch more fish in it
by the day than are caught below here in $5,000 worth of seine.

Q. What is done with these shad ?

A. They are very valuable.

Q. Have you any idea as to the value of that fishery ?

A. I have no idea, but they supply all up in our country. That fish-
ery is located just below a bend in the river, and it makes the river
very narrow, and it is a place that has always been noted for its fish,

Q. Suppose that the proposition was made that fishing be closed on
Monday and Wednesday? Would those men who catch the fish lose
their employment for that time?

A. I don’t think the men up the stream are entitled to everything.
The people below are entitled to something.

Q. You think that that would be wrong for the hired laborer?

A. Yes.

Mr. Swindell:—They have always contended that we have caught the
   

 

 

8 TERR ART TA POON ONGC AIT IMENT AAT TEST RET

154 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

fish down here. As a matter of fact, the fisheries in Tar River above
Washington pay five times better in proportion to the money invested
than they do in Pamlico River. So far as their fishing is concerned,
they have a right to fish five or six days in the week, as they do down
here.

Mr. Cotton:—After you pass Mr. Proctor’s there is no pay in it.

Mr. Swindell:—Mr. Proctor made as much money a year on an in-
vestment of $500 as some parties fishing in Pamlico River with an in-
vestment of $10,000.
: MR. SWINDELL.

Q. Do you think that pound nets ought not to be fished any farther
than 300 yards from the shore? Would you like to be limited in that
way? é.

A. Yes, if that is the law, I would.

Q. Could pound nets be profitably fished with this limit?

A. It depends on the limit.

Q. Are you willing for such a limit?
A. I am willing to be limited if everybody else is. I don’t know

but that we will have to do it anyhow. On the whole, I don’t see any
improvement that we can make except possibly in allowing them to
fish these salt water creeks during the winter.

Q. Just as well take out the nets. You know they are greatly de-

creasing; what would you suggest as a remedy ?
A. The decrease is not only in North Carolina, but in the United

States. It does not do us any good for them to catch up the fish in
Virginia. I saw a statement the other day that more herring were
sold to the fertilizer factory in Virginia than are caught in North
Carolina. No use for North Carolina to protect the fish and let Vir-
ginia catch them. —

Q. What fish that you would protect here’would be caught in Vir-
ginia ?

A. Shad and herring and salt water fish.

Q. What basis have you for that statement?
A. I base it on the fact that I don’t know of any reason why shad

and herring come specially back to the place they spawn at; neither do
I know about trout, blue fish or others; I think they play up and down

the coast and come in where it suits them.
Q. If the fact that you state can be substantiated it would be of great

value to the Committee. Upon what do you base that statement?

A. I don’t know where they go to. :
Q. Have you any reason for believing or disbelieving that when

the shad leave these waters they go into the deeper waters and when
they spawn they move up in the fresh water to spawn ?

FEE eB Ry GET PIL POE TT ATL SERN BOO ETM

menemersthc?

 

 

PS corer

EE EEE LE ESL RI BP CTE ATT LT RPT I TN RT

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 155

A. Not much; none of us know much about it.

Q. Do you think it safe to make a positive statement about the fish
playing up and down the coast when you know nothing about it?

A. I think it is safe to say so. The weather conditions and the con-
dition of the water have lots to do with it.

Q. Did you say that Virginia uses more fish for fertilizer than are
caught in North Carolina?

A. I saw the statement in a Virginia paper.

Dr, Moore :—As far as that is concerned, the statement is probably cor-
rect. I do not know absolutely. They catch large numbers of herring in
the waters of Virginia, and there is a very poor market for them. The
supply of herring is greater than the demand. It is quite possible that
we could improve this condition if these herring were properly pre-
pared for export, but our fishermen seem not to have the desire or the
knowledge as to how to prepare them. In certain parts of the world
and in some of the West Indies there is a very large demand for
herring, which is supplied almost exclusively by the sea herring of
Scotland and Norway. I don’t believe that the sea herring is very
much superior to the herring of these waters, but it is prepared in a
superior way. That trade demands that the eggs shall be packed in
a certain way and in certain sized packages, but there are fishermen
and fish dealers who are very much like our manufacturers when they
come into competition with foreign markets. They think they know
better what the consumer wants than he does himself, and refuse to
pack them according to the desired qualifications.

Are you a fisherman?

Yes.
Where do you fish?
I suppose you might say we fish anywhere from here to the ocean.
Do you engage in the pound net or gill net fishing?
Both.
How long have you been in the business?
I have been in the business about eighteen years.
Are you a fish dealer in addition to being a fisherman?
Yes.
In your opinion, can any means be devised whereby the number
of fish in these waters can be increased ? ;
A. I don’t know of any except regulating the size of the net. I think
that is an important thing.
Q. How many years have shad been deposited in these waters?
A. I do not know.
Q. What was the last year that you remember?
A. Two years ago.

OPOPOPOPOPO

EL PL LTT Le

 

 

 

 
156 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA dain tintehs: Dead ta dill ae is?

 

 

 

Q. Prior to that time had there been a regular time to deposit ?

A. I don’t think they put them in regularly every year. Sometimes
for two or three years in succession, and then skip a year.

Q. About how many were deposited each year?

A. I do not know.
A Fisherman:—Probably 250,000 to 300,000.

MR. SWINDELL.

Speaking of the decrease of shad, I went over my books of 15 years
ago and we caught more shad in Pamlico River last year than we had

15 years ago.
Q. You mean you have had poorer seasons in the intervals between

this?

A. We have had better seasons since 1895 than this year. In the
year 1895 less shad were caught in the Pamlico river than this year.

Q. Have you increased your interest in the fish business?

A. So far as catching shad and herring in Pamlico River, I have

not.
Q. Is there any more gill nets employed for catching shad than

there use to be?

A. I think not.
Q. Is there an increase in pound nets and a decided decrease in gill

nets and seines?
A. I think so. There may be a few more pound nets, but there are

less gill nets.

Q. How do your books compare for 1900 and 1909?

A. There is more in gill nets than seines. We have caught more shad
for the past two years than for the four or five years previous.

Q. Do you attribute that increase in any way to the inlets having

been kept open in the past two or three years?

A. I don’t know what to attribute it to.
Q. Do you think there is as much fishing apparatus as there was five

years ago?
A. Yes, I think there is more.
Q. What do you think about the application of the fish law to the

whole State? Ought we to have the industry under the control of the

Fish Commission or let each county have their own laws?
A. I think the Fish Commission is a good thing. T find a good many

fishermen that are opposed to the tax.
Q. Those that are opposed to the tax, don’t they think it is a good

thing?
A. I do not know about that. In my opinion, the Fish Commission

is what we need in the entire State.

 

Q. How do you think it would suit the fishermen to say we are going
to repeal all-the fish laws? What do you think of that?

A. TI don’t know what would be the consequences then.

Q. Are you in favor of more stringent laws?

A. I think the laws are stringent enough.

Q. When do you think the closed season ought to begin?

A. For shad, I think we ought to have a closed season beginning
about the 20th of April for shad nets only. The nets that are fished
for herring, I don’t think it is right to take them out.

. Don’t you fish the pound nets for shad and herring both?

. You will catch some shad, of course.

, : there any way to liberate them without injuring the fish?

. Qo.

. Then it is practically the fishing for shad and herring both?

. There are a good many nets fished entirely for shad, as gill nets,
and also a good many pounds. The pound nets that are fished in the
sound are large mesh nets.

Q. Would that argument affect any of the pound nets in Pamlico
River?

A. Affect some, yes.

Q. Would the people affected be willing to exchange their pound nets
for gill nets?

A. I think so. Most of the pound nets in Pamlico River are small
mesh. There are a good many gill nets fished in this river, and they
fish as long as they can catch shad.

Q. You stated that the number of gill nets had decreased. Why
is that?

A. Because they do not find it profitable.

Q. Would those who are fishing gill nets continue the use of same
unless they found it profitable?

A. I guess we handle more gill nets than any one else in the river.
Take an average for the last five years, I don’t know whether we have
made a dollar out of it or not.

Q. Suppose that this county were put under the Fish Commission and
you were called upon to pay a small tax that would be necessary to sup-
port the Commission, have you any idea of what proportion you would
have to pay of that tax?

A. I expect I would pay a third of it. It might be more than that.

Q. From your observation, where do you think the spawning grounds
of the shad are in these waters?

A. Mostly above us in Tar River. The water conditions have some-
thing to do with it.

Q. Don’t you know that without you are under the Fish Commis-

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158 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

sion you cannot get the United States Government to plant your waters
with shad? And don’t you think that is right?

A. Our waters have been protected for years. While we have not
been under the Fish Commission, we have very stringent laws, and
they have been pretty well enforced.

Q. Are they enforced now?

A. Not much.

Q. What can you tell us about oysters?

A. We handle some oysters.

Q. Has there been a decrease in the oyster industry as well as in the
fish industry ?

I think so.
To what extent do you think they have decreased?

I don’t know much about oysters.
How long since the cannery was in operation?
I don’t remember.

How long did it operate?
. I don’t know that. I think in regard to the oyster business, we

need a law that will protect planting as much as possible.

Q. If they had a law of that kind, do you think there are many men
in the county that could be induced to go into the business?

A. Not in this county; this is not an oyster county.

Q. Did you know that the cultivation law that we drew up at More-
head had been passed ?

A. I did not know it.
Q. Have you had some experience with oyster fisheries in other coun-

ties? Have you come into contact with the oystermen so that you are
somewhat familiar with their sentiments?

A. Yes,

Q. What reason do, they give as to why oyster cultivation has not
been in demand in North Carolina?

A. Because they have not had the protection.
Q. The present law to which Dr. Pratt refers overcomes that diffi-

culty. In regard to the cull protection or policing of those boats, what

do you think could be done?
A. It seems to me the only way would be for the planters themselves

to come together and have a watchman.
Q. You think that if a number of planters could locate in a given
territory they could afford to have it policed?

A. I think so.
Q. Do you think it would be possible for the State to patrol the oyster

beds if they were scattered all over the State?
A. I don’t think so. I think it would take too many boats.

bPOPOPOP

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 159

MR, DAUGHTRY.

Too many people dredge. Oyster business is something like farming;
a good season and the water is just right and the oyster grows, and if
it is not, it don’t grow. Of course, a good many catch up the oysters,
and as to those planting, there is no ground that I know of that is en-
tered except where the oysters have always grown.

Q. How long prior to the entry do you mean?

A. Not over four or five years ago.

Q. How much could you make a day oystering?

A. When the season was good I would average a couple of dollars a
day at a place called Judith, in Hyde County. That is really the only
place that I know of in Pamlico Sound that a man can plant oysters.
There is a little place in Far Creek they can grow, but that depends on
the amount of run they have. If they have two or three years and the
right kind of seasons, they will grow.

Q. To what extent have the beds in North Carolina been destroyed?

A. They have not been destroyed. They have been improved by
dredging. I mean that with cultivation the oysters will grow faster. I
know of beds that I have caught from 200 to 300 bushels of oysters a
day on that I got from 10 to 15 cents per bushel for, and now I will
get ten to twenty bushels and get $1 a bushel. I believe dredging is a
good thing, but I believe the oysters ought to be culled and the small
oysters thrown back. This ought to be looked after strictly.

Q. To what extent is that cull law disregarded ?

A. They regarded it pretty well for the past year or two. We had the
best oysters last year we have had in a good many. The oysters were a
pretty fair size and good meat.

Q. You think that the natural beds in this State are in good condi-
tion? Then have you any suggestions to make as to any changes in the
oyster laws?

A. Not a bit, except allow no fellow to catch them at an improper
time, and take beds that are natural.

Q. Do you know anything of such oysters being carried out of this
State into Virginia?

Not of my own knowledge.

When you cull your oysters, what do you do with the shells?
Throw them overboard.

Where?

Right where we catch them.

Does your dredging operations ever get ahead of your culling?
We can strike beds of rock that it will.

Then what do you do with them?

Have to take a longer time. Have to keep them out of the way.

POPOPOPOP

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160 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Then it is necessary for you in the course of your operations to
deposit your cull on the rock?
A. I think so.

Q. Do any of them get off?
A. In some places you will find little oyster rock that will not be over

ten feet. It may be a long time afterwards, and oysters appear eight
or ten feet deep on it, and you will find places with little oysters on the
edge, on the middle nothing but shells. When there is mud around it,
it will be a poor oyster, and when it is on the hardshell bottom there
is a nice, fat oyster.

Q. Do you know of any oyster beds in the State that have been de-
stroyed ?

A. No.

Q. Do you think that the oyster law is being observed ?

A. I think that our people who are trying to get their living from
catching oysters are learning to throw the shells back and to observe

the law.
Q. Who is the Oyster Commissioner for this county?

A. Oaptain George Hill.

MR. STERLING.

I ami satisfied with the law as it now exists, with the fish law, but I
believe that for the best interests of fish we should have a closed season
during the spawning of the shad. I believe we ought to have a closed
season on shad, say from the 20th of April-to the fall of the year. Take
the salt water fish, trout, croaker, they spawn along in May and June.
Personally, I like the law as it is, but they ought to be protected. You
catch thousands and thousands of them full of spawn, and they are not
marketable; you can not sell more than a third of them. While I know
it is bad for my friends on the other side of the sound, still they are full
of food and spawn and are not marketable. I believe we should have a
closed season, say May and June, on all kinds of fish. Take the fresh
water fish. I believe that Mr. Brinson’s idea is right on closing the
creeks, but I do believe they should be open after the 1st of September.

Q. Why is that?

A. The law.

Q. What was the aim of the law?

A. The law was passed by petition sent to the Legislature, not only
this last, but the two former ones, by the people living on the crecks.
They were absolutely opposed to drag nets going in there. They called
it their fishing grounds.

Q. Do you have no fishing there?

A. Yes, closed to every one except hook and line. Take, for instance,

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 161

on this river, there is Bath Creek and Goose Creek, Lee’s Creek, North
Creek and South Creek, all of those creeks are closed. Practically the
entire tributaries of this river are closed, and the drag netters make their
living out of those creeks.

Q. The creeks are supposed to be closed to everybody?

A. Any kind of fresh water fish. I think Mr. B. is perfectly right
as to a closed season for part of the year, through May, June, July and
August, but I do think it would be right for these creeks to be open.

Q. Don’t you know that the reason the creeks are closed is so that
those people can fish there with their hook and line?

A. I do, sir. That is the whole thing in a nutshell. The people liv-
ing on these creeks are jealous and don’t want drag netters to go in
there. If we have a dry season and the water gets salt it will kill all
those fish.

Have you the black bass down in this section?

Yes.

Where do you find them?

In these creeks.

Are they very numerous?

Right much. In the winter time we ship a great many to northern
and western markets.

Q. How do you get them if they are not allowed to be fished?

A. We don’t catch many since the creeks have been closed. A feller
can take a hook and line and catch $2 and $3 worth a day.

Q. Do you think there ought to be a limitation as to the distance that
they can fish up these creeks?

A. They can only fish so far because they are stumpy. All these
creeks more or less are full of stumps, and especially up toward the head,
and there is not a certain location on these creeks where you can haul
a drag net.

Q. At what time of the year do you propose closing these?

A. During the months of May, June, July and August.

Q. Do you know at what times the black bass or chub spawn?

A. I think they commence the latter part of April. I have had them
in the house and dumped them out of a bag and the spawn would leave
them.

FS Have you ever seen them depositing spawn at that time on their
s%

A. Yes.

Q. Do you think that they possibly spawn earlier?

A. They might towards the latter part of April. They don’t do it
until the water begins to warm up.

Q. Possibly you are not aware that these black bass make a sort of

11

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162 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

a nest by clearing away a space at the bottom of the streams. Have you

ever seen the black bass on these nests?
A. TI have never seen a black bass on its nest earlier than the 1st of

May in my life. A great many times the chubs will eat the robins.

Q. What do you think of the advisability of consolidating the fish and
oyster industries in the same commission, and give the Board of Fisher-
ies powers similar to that of the Board of Agriculture to pass laws in
the different localities to suit the different kinds of fish?

A. I think that would simplify matters greatly.

Q. Are there not a great many matters of great interest taking place
during the vacations of the legislature for which the law does not pro-
vide, which could be handled by this board?

A. Ido. I do not think one boat could do the work. I do not think
one boat can do the policing for the oysters and fish, too.

Q. Would not that simplify matters?

A. No question about that, to my mind.

Q. Can you tell us anything about oysters?

A. I don’t know a thing in the world.

Q. Don’t you think all the counties of the State ought to come under

the control of the Fish Commission ?
A. I do. In my opinion, the recommendations made at Morehead

were about all I can suggest, except as to a closed season. Something
was said there as to a closed season, but we don’t agree fully. I cer-
tainly do think we ought to have a closed season on fresh and salt water
fish, Carteret County started a fight on the Fish Commission.

Q. Does Carteret County go over into Hyde County to fish?

A. Yes; they go all over the State. You know, the Carteret County
people don’t allow pound nets fished, and they come over in Hyde, Beau-
fort and Pamlico and fish their nets. One great trouble about Carteret
County water is shallow. That is the reason they don’t want pound nets
fished.

Q. What do they fish in Carteret County?

A. They fish drop nets and drag nets.

Q. How about the water in Neuse River, and don’t their men go from
the river on the south shore in Carteret County to the north shore in

Pamlico County?
A. I think they do. The Carteret County people in the last legisla-

ture were the cause of most of the trouble.

Q. If it were necessary to impose a tax to carry on the operations of
the Fish Commission, have you any idea of the proportion of that tax
you would be required to pay?

A. I suppose possibly 25 per cent of it.

Se oi ah

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 163

MR. HOWARD.

It has been several years since I have been down there. Our oysters
were destroyed ten years ago by the hurricane. Since then the packers
have gone south, and that ruined our market. We have just as many
oysters now, in fact, we have an increase from what it was then.

That was in what county?

Up over the sound.

When did you say that was?

In the August hurricane, ten years ago.

Were they covered up by sand?

They were rolled up and covered up. There were plenty of places
they worked out afterwards.

Q. Are there not quite a number of beds down in the sound that are
raised two or three feet above the sand?

A. Yes, I know of rocks that are nine feet from the bottom.

Q. What kills the oysters on these largest rocks?

A. The freshets.

Q. Are there not high beds out in the middle of the sound?

A. No; they are over two or three feet, but nothing like eight or nine
feet, as you find them in this river.

Q. Were the beds that had a two or three foot rise destroyed as well
as those lower down?

A. No. Those in the mouth of the river were not destroyed.

Q. You mean the marketable oyster ought to be loaded and shipped
out?

A. They were destroyed, too, by the hurricane. And then the cull
law is not observed. Oysters come here to this market all during the
season any size, and I think the oysters ought to be allowed to go out of
the State after they are culled. Plants and shells and culls ought not
to be allowed to go out.

Q. To what extent are plants carried from this State into Virginia
and other States?

A. Some years it is greater than others. I don’t know exactly what.
Last year there was not so many as the year before. Up to that time
there had been a good many. They go to Ocracoke and Portsmouth,
Long Shoals, Wysocking, Gull Rock and load them and carry them out.
They have a great way of capping, taking a few good oysters and putting
them on top.

Q. Do you think we need a more efficient execution of the present law?

A, I do.

Q. Do you think it would be accomplished by having more inspectors?

A. If you would make provisions to pay these inspectors and get the

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AE aN EL CE OI ET LT A IN A IN EET TN AINE SP

164 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

proper ones, it would have the right effect. The Oyster Commission
does not collect enough to sustain itself.

Q. You think they ought to be allowed to sell the little oysters?

A. I don’t think the little ones ought to be allowed to go out of the
State. :

Q. How long since the cannery was abandoned here?

A. It has been about five years ago. The reason of that, all those fel-
lows have gone south and established canneries, and use the coon oysters,
which they can buy for 10 or 15 cents per bushel.

Q. When those canneries were there, did they take oysters of all
sizes ?

A. All sizes, mussels and all.

Q. Do you think that had a bad effect on the beds?

A. Not at that time. It would have had a bad effect on them if they
had kept on at it. At the time they were taking them they were noth-
ing but a lot of mussels. The bed was overcrowded. I should think the
tonging season should open sooner, say the 1st of October, and the dredg-
ing season, it would be better to give another month in the year. If you
want any of the oysters to go out of the State for planting purposes, let
them be properly culled.

Q. Do you know of any beds that have been destroyed by this neglect
to enforce the culling law?

A. No, not of my own knowledge. Here and down around Ocracoke
and Pamlico I know they have caught them up at times and carried
them to Morehead City. The cull law has not been observed down that
way at all.

These vessels which take these oysters, how do they go?

They go through the canal.

We are supposed to have inspectors at these canneries, are we not?
Yes.

What about fish?

. Iam no fisherman. I think a closed season for the salt water fish
from the 1st of May to the 1st of September would be a good thing.

Q. From your experience in the oyster business do you think it would
be possible for an inspector to detect unculled oysters if they put culled
oysters on top of a great many barrels?

A. If he knows his business he would. If he was down around in that
country he would know the way the dredgers were doing, and how they
were handling them.

Q. Would it be possible for him to go aboard the boat and detect it
without any amount of labor?

A. It would take some little labor, but he could detect it.

POPOPO

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 165

Q. If he could shove ten or fifteen bushels from the top he could de-
tect the unculled oysters?

A. Yes, usually.

Q. Do you think that a law compelling the master of the vessel to
turn over his cargo for inspection would answer?

A. I should think he would have a right to inspect the last one of
them if he wanted to.

Q. What is your opinion as to the success of those planting oysier
beds?

A. We have very poor planting lands on account of the current. We
have a few places down on the coast. There are a few places that planted
oysters will grow.

Q. Are there any places where oysters have been planted where they
were not already growing?

A. Judith’s Ferries was a natural oyster rock ever since my recol-
lection. That is about the only place I know where oysters have been
planted on a natural oyster rock.

DR. PITT.

We have not got any shad down where I live. They have been get-
ting less and less for the last ten years.

Q. To what do you ascribe that decrease ?

A. They catch them up before they get there. Up in Tar River
they catch them with the seines. When it is high water they will go
clean up beyond the falls. They spawn in those creeks. There is a creek
running right back of my house where they spawn. It has not been
over two weeks ago they caught two she shad up above Tarboro ready
to spawn.

Q. What do you think of making the closed season longer; instead of
taking from Saturday morning to Monday morning, have it from Friday
morning to Monday morning?

A. Tam in favor of a closed season. I think it would give all a better
showing.

Mr. Swindell:—Mr. Sterling says he thinks there ought to be a closed
season for salt water fish. As a matter of fact, there are more salt water
fish caught during the months of May and June. If you go to work and
deprive the fishermen in the sounds from fishing during those months
you take away all their profit in fishing. :

Q. What time do croakers spawn?

A. They don’t spawn here at all.

_Q. What time do trout spawn?

A. May and June.

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 167
166 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Have not those fish been scarcer in the last four or five years?

i : BEAUFORT MEETING.
A. That is true, and we have had more fresh water in the last four

 

or five years than ever before. ; Jury 19, 1909.
Q. Don’t you think that they spawn during the months of May and Meeting called to order by Chairman, who explained object of the
June? Me
2 ting.
A. Mostly. es

MR. JAMES M. CONGLETON.
Q. Then why not protect them then?

AV ing?
A. If you don’t catch them then you don’t catch them at all. How long have you been fishing ?

All my life.

You fish with a small net?

Small net.

How large is the net? —

The law allows us to fish 225 yards.

What size of mesh?

All the way from an inch to as large as you want it;
Anything smaller than an inch?

No, that is the law.

What class of fish do you catch?

We catch all kinds of edible fish.

Any fresh water fish?

No fresh water fish.

Where do these fish breed ?

Breed in,the sea; some in Newport River.

Do they have any special breeding season that you know of?

MR, LATHAM.

I am not a practical fisherman, and know but very little of fish inter-
ests. All that I have been able to know about it is what I have heard
the citizens say. I have been instrumental in the closing of four or five
creeks in the county for five months in the year.

Q: What creeks are they?

A.*Blount’s Creek, Wright’s Creek, ete., during March, April, May,
June and July. All the fishermen are willing and want a closed sea-
son. ‘Fhe only difference is in the time. Most of the creeks on the south
side of the river are closed during the entire year. As far as I have
been able to understand, it has given satisfaction.

MR. TAYLOE,

I know very little about fishing except this: I am impressed with

one fact today. I do not think I ever saw as many as three fishermen Yes; I think I can define some of the different classes of fish.
or dealers who agreed, but today they all agree that the State ought to What would be the result of having a Fish Commission established
protect the fish and oyster industry. I could not say anything that could in this county ?

OPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPOPFOS

 

add to what has been said. I believe that the people of this county real-
ize the importance of obeying the fish laws, and they realize that the
State should help them. The people in Edgecombe and Pitt counties do
not depend upon: fishing for their livelihood. We have hundreds of
people on the banks of the Pamlico who make their living out of fishing.
Another proposition is the bridges. When I was a boy growing up it
was a great sight to go down on the bridge and see them catch two or
three sturgeon every day. It seems strange to me that a fish as large
as a sturgeon should be turned back. They have the best farms in

the world in Pitt County, and they should farm and leave their fishing
to us. é

alia paid cares

A. TI think it would be beneficial to our county.

Q. How would you suggest that you have it?

A. I don’t know.

Q. Do you think a tax ought to be raised on nets?

A. T don’t think we ought to pay taxes at all. Let it stand just like it
is rather than have a tax.

Q. Where do you do your fishing? In what part of Carteret County?
In Newport River, North River, and Core Sound.
Do you catch shad in season?
Very few; we don’t have any nets for that purpose.
You have gill nets down here?
We used to, but don’t now. We use cotton altogether. We use
haul nets and a two-hundred-yard seine.

Q. Do you use that net hauling up on the beach?

A. No; somethimes we haul to the sound. When we haul mullets

we generally haul to the sound.

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168 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. What has been your observation? Has there been any decrease
in the number of fish caught in these waters as compared with ten years
ago?

A. No, I don’t think so, I think we have more mullets this summer
than in ten years.

Q. How is it as to the shad?

A. We don’t fish for shad.

Q. How is it as to the menhaden or fat-back?

A. I have fished for them for ten years. Some seasons we have a
plenty and others they are scarce.

Q. You think there has been any perceptible decrease?

A. No, I don’t.

Q. What are the principal varieties of fish caught here?

A. Trout, hogfish, spots, bluefish, sheepshead, mullets, flounders, ete.

Q. You don’t fish especially for the bluefish and trout? The same
parties catch all kinds of fish?

A. Yes. A variety is caught in each net. Sometimes we catch nearly
all varieties at one haul.

Q. What time do you commence fishing?

A. We fish on the tide all the year round.

Q. Why did you leave out the winter season formerly?

A. We made our living in the nine months, and now it takes twelve
months.

Q. You did not fish during the winter because of the hardship in fish-
ing?

A. Yes, because of the hardship of the winter.

Q. Don’t you get more money for the fish now than you used to get?

A. No, I think not; not for the fish we catch.

Q. Would you recommend a closed season any part of the year when
there should be no fishing in this county?

A. I don’t think I would, but there are some places that I don’t think
they ought to be caught at some time of the year.

Q. To what places do you refer?

A. Around the inlets in the spawning season. At Beaufort Inlet
there are quantities of fish caught that would spread over in the sounds
and rivers, but they don’t get there.

Q. In what kinds of nets do you catch the fish?

A. Haul nets.

Q. Can you haul these across the inlets—along the shoals inside?

A. Not across the inlet, but along the beach.

Q. How close to the inlet can they fish these, and how close do they
fish them ?

A. Right around the point.

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Is the law enforced at the inlet?
I don’t know what to say.
Are you willing to say that the law is properly regarded?

According to my best judgment, it is not.
What is the sentiment about the enforcement of the law? Do the

fishermen want it enforced, or do they wink at the violation of it?

A. They would do it.

Q. Do you think it would be to the best interest of the county and
the fishing if the law was enforced ?

A. The fisherman is the violator. I think the intent of the law was
to cut out what we call targel seines. We have no system about our nets.
What is a targel seine? _

It is a seine hauled to the beach by men, horses, ete.
Are they no longer fished in this county?

No.

How long are your lines?

I suppose half a mile.

That net would sweep half a mile from the shore?
Yes, half a mile from the shore.

Is there any limitation placed by law on these?

No limitation placed by law.

Is there any tax imposed on these nets?

No.

Is there any tax imposed on the fishermen ?

Not for fishing.

What is the life of one of these nets?

It is owing to the season that we put them in the water. . Start a

net in the summer season, it will last sometimes two and sometimes seven
months. In the winter season, sometimes twelve months.

What is the cost of one of these nets?

They cost from $30 to $75 and $100.

Do you catch any considerable number of small fish in these nets?
No; we generally have a haul net one and one-fourth inch bar.
Are they the same mesh the entire length of the net?

All the same size, length and depth.

. If you catch a considerable number of fish in these nets, are they

small ones?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it ever necessary to liberate them?
A. As a general rule, if the fishermen haul the fish to the shore, they

generally throw them on the shore.
Q. In hauling them up on the beach, is there a large proportion of

them killed?

OPOoPreo

POPOPOPOPOPOPOPOS

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a a aad
 

 

170 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. No; sometimes you get a peck, sometimes a bushel.

Q. What is the smallest size fish that is marketed ?

A. What we call an inch bar, an inch fish.

Q. About how long would that fish be?

A. About six or seven inches.

Q. What would you think of a law that would prohibit the purchase
of a fish that size?

A. I think it would damage the poor people of Carteret County.

Q. Don’t your small fish bring a very small price?

A. We get the same price for the small ones as for the large ones.

Q. What do you get for mullets?
A. From $2 to $2.50 a crate of 100 Ibs. In this season of the year

they are smaller than later on.
Q. Do you use these nets for beach fishing?
A. Not for beach fishing, but for sound fishing.

Q. By beach fishing you mean on the outside?

A. We use them on the inside, too, in what we call stationary fishing.
They generally go out by the middle of August and set until the middle
of November.

Q. How is the supply of bluefish? Is there any appreciable differ-
ence from what there was ten years ago?

A. Yes, I think there is.

Q. Do you get any large ones in these waters?

A. Yes; get some two and a half feet long.

Q. How is it with the sheepshead? Is there any difference in the

supply of these?
A. The sheepshead is a scarce fish with us anyway.
Q. Do you think there are as many here as there were ten years ago?

A. I don’t see why there should not be. We catch about the same.

The pound has something to do with taking up the sheepshead.

Q. I believe there are no pound nets allowed to be set in Carteret

County ?
A, No, we have no pound nets.
Q. Do you fish pound nets in other counties ?
A. I am unable to answer that.
Q. Do you know anything about oysters ?
A. We catch oysters sometimes.
Q. Do you dredge?

A. No. I have heard the oystermen talking about it last year. I
heard them say last year there was an increase, and they laid it to the

fact that the Legislature shortened the time.
Q. Are there any sturgeon caught in these waters?
A. We catch some inside.

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 171

Q. Are there any regular sturgeon nets fished on the outside?
A. No.

MR. M. L. LEE.

Q. How long have you been engaged in fishing?

A. I am a natural born fisherman, both fin and shell. I have two
things to put before you. I am directly interested in the fishing in east-
ern Carteret County. I want to say to you what is going on now and
what would be best for us. As you are all aware, Oregon and Hatteras in-
lets control our fish. All the fish we get comes in those inlets. All the
fish we have come from the sea. In respect to the fresh water, we have
the pound net fishing, the purse seine fishing, the drop net fishing, the
set net fishing and the haul net fishing. I will speak of the pound nets
first. Today at Oregon Inlet, I suppose there are just 100 pound nets
set across the mouth of the inlet and-within five miles of the inlet. There
is where they set an inch bar.

Q. Is that under the Fish Commission ?

A. I was speaking of Oregon and Hatteras inlets. Five miles, I
think the law is. Those channels need five miles from the inlets where
the nets are set.

Q. Is there any law prohibiting that fishing?

A. I will show you later on. The law that we have now they say is
to set the small mesh nets, and the fishermen claim that they can not
set the larger mesh, not for the reason that the little fish get in. These
nets are there and they are taking about one-tenth of the whole eastern
part of Carteret County and monopolizing the privileges of nine-tenths.
In other words, fifteen years ago, or even ten years ago, the fishermen
fishing the hand nets and drop nets could make wages; today they can
not make wages. At that time they were making four and five dollars
a night and now they can not make more than 50 cents or a dollar. There
is a great decrease in the®fish. What I want to say about the fish, they
come in the spring time and they are after them even in June and July,
and in the spawning season. They are taking everything from the bot-
tom. I was there one time on one occasion, about six years ago, and a
boat came alongside of my boat with a boat load, and they would take
a big dip net and bale out a few and throw the rest overboard. This
was in the pound nets and they are breaking up the other common fish-
ermen all along the coast. On the other hand I think it would be a
good thing to prohibit the pound from setting there in the springtime
and make 1 1-2 inch mesh and let those pound nets come up in the
broad waters of Pamlico Sound. I think not more than three nets should
be allowed to set in a row. Take one man with one net whose cost was
not more than $300 and another man with a bank of three nets will

 

 
 

 

 

 

172 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

come in and crowd his net right up close to the man with one net and
this causes a wrangle all the while. They cut off the rivers and tribu-
taries and everything. If they stop up these places we can not get any
fish on the inside. That is the condition which pound net fishing is in
today. We are willing to be taxed if there is a law to see that every
man fares alike. It is not worth while to make a law of that kind
unless you put a man to preside over it. You make 1 1-2 mesh and
they will use that for, say six months, and pretty soon a fellow is in
with 1 1-4 inch mesh. We think these pound net men ought to be made
to come up in the sound and give the other fishermen a chance. Bring
him up here, or at least stop him from fishing at the inlet. If you
catch up the young fish we can not have the older ones. It takes four
times the little fish to weigh equal to a big one. He should be left
alone. As to the drop net fishing and the set net fishing I don’t know
any amendment to be made to that. I think they ought to be able to
fish thoge all the year round. The fyke net sets in the fall and catch the
blue fish and trout. That class of fishing never can break up the fishing
on the inside of the inlets. So far as the purse seines are concerned, I
don’t know anything to say about that. We have a decrease of all
kinds of fish today.

Q. Are there any buoys or marks by which these fishermen are
guided ?

A. Yes.

Q. Do they change them?

A. They are guided by shores, islands, ete.

Q. Neither the State nor the county has established any marks?

A. Nothing more than what we have on the shores.

Q. There has been no boundary marked out by the Fish Commission

A. None at all.

Q. Do you think there ought to be a closed season as to the time when
these nets should be taken out?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. What time would you suggest?

A. T don’t think we ought to fish in May, June, or July. I think

the fish ought to be allowed to come on in during those months. This
as regards the pound nets.

Q. Do you think they ought to fish gill nets or any other kind of nets
across the inlet?

A. They ought not to fish any kind at the inlet.

Q. Do you think that it would be to the interest of the fishermen
along that section if, the State were to establish buoys all along that
section and then see that they were observed ?

A. T do.

eee

 

f

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 173

Q. Don’t you think you ought to be willing to pay for this?

A. I do. I think we ought to be willing if it is carried out.

Q. What is your idea as to why the laws have not been carried out?

A. The people, I don’t suppose, have taken the interest they should.

Q. You think there should be a special officer with a sufficient num-
ber of deputies charged with the enforcement of these laws?

A. I think so. I think there ought to be some individuals to go
around the shores and see that the laws are carried out.

Q. Would the pound netters be benfited by the way you propose?

A. They would. —

Q. In what way?

A. As it is now they have a wrangle in fishing all the time. Take a
man with two or three nets and let another man come in on each side
of him with two or three rows of nets, and he can not fish. They have a
law now that they should have a certain size mesh net. There is nobody
to look after it. Some want to obey the law and some want to violate it.
The ones who want to obey are taken advantage of by the ones who want
to violate. I think they would all be better satisfied to have protection
along that line.

Q. Is there any law that nets can only be fished a certain distance
from the shore? I understand that a number of Carteret County fish-
ermen fish pound nets in Pamlico County?

A. Yes, they are not allowed to fish pound nets in Carteret County.
I think it is a thousand yards out they fish.

Q. If that law was enforced the man with only one net as well as
the man with three pound nets would have the privilege of going out
the thousand yards from the shore? If that thousand yard law was
enforced every fisherman would have just as much privilege as an-
other ?

A. The fish run off from shore to a certain extent. If you block the
way with a lot of nets, way out in the sounds, then the man just above
you doesn’t have any chance, espeially when the first man has the best
place.

Q. Your idea is not to fish more than three nets in a line?

A. My idea is not to fish more than three nets in a line and then you
don’t cut off the whole thousand yards.

Q. Suppose you increase and double your lead?

A. They will not lead that far. It gives the boatman a great priv-
ilege, too. A boatman can not go across the pound nets without cutting
them up, and they go out in the middle of the river.

Q. Don’t you think it would be better to change your number of
yards from the shore?

&. If you don’t fish more than ‘three pound nets from the shore, you

 
 

 

 

174 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA
could not get on the fishing bottom. The distance of a thousand yards
is all right with three nets in a row.

Q. Do you think that pound nets ought to be

Carteret County ?
A. I think Carteret County people ought to have some limited terri-

tory to fish pound nets in.

Q. You don’t think it is any worse for a Carteret County man to fish
a pound net on the east side of Neuse River than it is for him to step
over and fish in Hyde County?

A. I don’t think so. I would suggest the eastern part, the Pamlico
Sound borders on the eastern part. You don’t want any pound nets set
along the coast from Portsmouth to Harbor Island. There are shores
in Pamlico that you could set the pound nets without damage.

Q. What proportion of fishermen fish pound nets?

A. About one-tenth.
Q. Gan not one pound net catch as much as twenty fishermen could

with a small net?

A. It would catch considerable more.

Q. Don’t you think it would be the proper thing for all the fisher-
men to put a small and equitable tax for the benefit which all should

receive from the law?
A. I do, but I don’t suppose that the real drop net fishermen would

think so.

Q. If a man is assured that he will have proper protection he ought
to be willing to pay a small tax for that protection?

A. If they can see the point where these pound nets would be re-
moved from the inlets and keep them from catching the small fish,
they would be willing. These people in the eastern part of the county
have spent their all in the pound nets and to take that privilege away
from them entirely would be too much. I don’t think we could have
any market for fish if it was not for the pound nets, especially in warm
weather. The thing to do is to limit the fishing.

Q. Do you think that without the pound nets they would not have
proper refrigeration to get the fish on the market?

A. No.
Q. On the other hand, would they not be willing to pay half of the

value of the property rather than lose it all?

allowed to be fished in

MR. ABERNETHY.

The trouble about it is this, gentlemen, and TI want the commit-
tee to understand my position. We have a great class of people
dependent upon this class of fishing for a living. My idea is if you let
these little nets run after these little fish—I can readily see where

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 175

you have these large fisheries where a man can go and undertake to
regulate these and enforce the law, but the trouble is we have probably
in this county one-tenth of the fishermen who are pound net fishermen
who fish out of the county. The sentiment is so strong that no man
could stay in this county and fish a pound net. When you go into these
people’s pockets and take their bread and meat, you come very close to
them. There are a great many people in this county who have this
idea, that the waters ought to be free altogether. It is not right, as we
see it, to tax people to support one man. Before they had the Fish
Commission in the other counties they would take a pound and put
in the sound and put a lead clean across the sound. The point I want
to make is the difference between the different kind of fishing. There is
no disposition on our part to take the privilege away from any one, but
the thing we most seriously object to in this county is that aay are
calling on nine-tenths to support what one-tenth has.

Q. Do you think that a good many find on the first of June that the
nets are worn out and not worth listing?

A. The fishermen are a class of people that list everything they have.

Q. Could you give me an idea of the number of nets in use in this
county ?

A. No, I could not do that.

Q. How long is the average of the nets that are fished by these small
fishermen ?

A. I suppose not over 150 yards.
fish over 225 yards.

Q. What would be the tax on a net 225 yards long?

A. I don’t know.

Mr. Meekins:—There would be no tax on any seine under 300 yards.

Mr. Abernethy:—If you don’t bother these small netters nobody
could raise any objection. The point that does affect us most seriously
is the small ones.

Q. How would it do to establish a Fish Commission and a Board of
Directors and allow them to make rules and regulations for the differ-
ent counties?

Mr. Abernethy:—The trouble about that is, you see, we are way
down here in one end of this fishing territory and whenever that Board
of Governors get to voting, they can out-vote us.

Q. Would it work a hardship to the people in the lower part of the
county to allow pound nets in what we call the upper part of the
county ?

A. Yes, it would work several hardships. If you would ask our
people they would say, why not take them out altogether? When you go

The law does not allow them to

 
 

 

i ’ a == —=—_——————————EEEEE EE _ EE _ ==

 

176 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

down and see a pound net in actual operation you can see how they
bale out the fish.

Q. Would you suggest how Pamlico and Albemarle would do their
fishing if you took the pound nets out?

A. They have abandoned them because they had to. It is a case where
the big fellow swallows up: the little fellows.

Q. You know as well as I that there is a diversity of interest and
opinion about the fishing industry in eastern North Carolina. A law
that would be suitable for Chowan and Pamlico and Beaufort might
not suit Carteret. Now what are we going to do about it?

Let us alone.
Is not the Fish Commissioner similar to the Oyster Commissioner?

Yes.
How long has the present Oyster Commissioner been in office?

Eight years.
. Didn’t Carteret County have a law passed that there should be no
oyster dredging in Carteret County?

A. Yes.

Q. I understand that you object to the abolition of dredging in this
State?

A. We think from the oysterman’s point of view it would be a good
thing. As fishermen down here we are opposed totally to any proposi-
tion that allows one man to have more chance than any other man.

Q. Have you any idea how this State differs in that respect from
other States along the seaboard?

A. I have not.

Q. Don’t you regard this matter of the fish and oyster interests as a
State matter rather than just a local industry? Don’t you believe that
it would be a good idea to establish a Bureau of Fisheries and give them
the entire charge of these matters and while you pass general laws in
regard to the subject, give them the power to make particular laws for
each part of the State and to maintain the general law to suit the differ-
ent localities?

A. We have the great Agricultural Department. That is not sus-
tained by a specific tax on the farmers. You can not build up an
industry by taxing a weak thing to build it up. The trouble has been
that our Oyster Commissioner, the Oyster Commission has not sus-
tained itself because the State, instead of coming out as a great State
and protecting this industry, they put a tax on the oyster that is
going down, and the result was that it was put in a hole. It is not
“because the law is not enforced, but it is because you can not raise
sufficient revenue to maintain a Commission. If you gentlemen would
recommend to the State of North Carolina that there be a department

ePoPer

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 177

made in this State where you have a Fish and Oyster Commissioner
combined and get some man like the Commissioner of Agriculture or
Secretary of State or some other department of State . %
The oyster industry is not what it used to be is admitted. It is not
because of the fact that we have a Commission, but it is because of the
fact that you have undertaken to raise money from a thing that is
being depleted. The thing that would make more oysters in North
Carolina than anything else would be to plant. shells throughout the
waters. It undertakes to lease these oyster beds. If the State would
spend its own money for it and go ahead and cultivate that ground like
a farmer, you could rent it out for enough to maintain it. I can readily
see why it is better to have some man at the head of these various
institutions, but when you undertake to put it on the little fellow RAR:
Our taxes in Beaufort are over 2 per cent right now.

Q. Don’t you believe that it would be a good plan to take the money
from the general treasury, even if the industry could not support
itself ?

A. I don’t know except if we had a Civil Service. The trouble about
it is this: we have the political side to consider.

Q. Don’t you think that the people of Carteret County ought to be
permitted to set pound nets within certain distances of each other and
in certain parts of Neuse River and don’t you think that the majority
would agree to that?

A. I don’t believe they would. I have asked some of the bitterest
opponents of drop nets in this county if there could be any objection
to setting pound nets on Neuse River from the first of January to the

first of May, and not a single one would object to it.
Mr. Lee:—There never has been much of a contention about the

pound nets in Neuse River because they are so far removed from our
fishermen as a rule.

Q. Do you know-just when the south shore of the Neuse was cut off
from Craven and made a part of Carteret County? Was the Neuse
River a part of Carteret County when the law regarding pound nets

was passed ?

A. I think in ’87.
MR. LEE.

I came a distance of thirty miles and left a sick child to put this story
before you.

Q. The State having control of these waters, how do the fishermen
decide among themselves as to where a man shall place his nets?

A. They don’t have any decision, only what they make themselves.

Q. If a man places his stakes at a certain point, do all the fishermen

consider that he is entitled to fish there for the balance of the season?

12

 
178 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 179

|

 

 

 

A. They should, but they don’t regard it that way. Some cut him off. : | A. No; I think not.

Q. I suppose then when a fellow has put in a net and another fellow
comes along with say three nets and puts them in on either side of the
fellow with one net, it causes a contention ?

A. That is exactly what he does, which causes a wrangle amongst
the fishermen. In regard to the pound nets the point that I have been
speaking of is the difference in the different precincts. One neighbor-
hood is opposed to another. We people in the eastern part of the county
are entirely dependent upon the fishing. We don’t do any farming.
We are more interested in fishing than any people in eastern North
Carolina. We have people who want a higher living than just the
common drop net fishing, and by using the trap net he can make a better
support. He devised it and should have the privilege of using it. Take
the waters that I spoke of on eastern Carteret County, the shoals adjoin-
ing the mouth of Neuse River, it is not detrimental to any fishing that
we have in that section of our waters. If you give them 1 1-2 inch
mesh, have three nets in a row, and require a good, salable fish all the
‘ while and limit their fishing to certain months, the industry would be
improved. Say, beginning fishing the first of January and take them
out the first of May.

Q. Your remarks would apply to all that part of Neuse River above
Core Sound ?

A. Yes, we don’t want Core Sound blocked up; but neither do we
want the inlets blocked up. Let the fish come in and spawn in the
sounds and rivers and tributaries and give everybody a chance. The
way we have it now, you know the waters of Pamlico and Core are
pretty close to the shoal I spoke of, and from Bay Point it extends out
very near Panama(?) shore, and they are allowed to go on the Pamlico
side. and set off 800 yards to the point I have reference to, and still you
can not set on the opposite side. It is not fair. I am speaking directly
on bread and meat. From Atlantic to Ocracoke the people are inter-
ested in pound nets. I suppose one-tenth of them are, about 800 in
Atlantic, 200 in Hog Island, and some in Ocracoke. Those people are
interested in pound nets and they want some privileges in Carteret
County to set them, if you will limit them as to the size of the mesh
and make a time for setting them. So far as to making the Fish Com-
mission, it would be much more satisfactory if the State would provide
for that.

Q. What do they pay the day laborer. for fishing?

A. For fishing the trap nets, about $30 per month; some more and
some less.

Q. Is there a large business done in this county of parties furnishing
nets to fishermen to be fished on shares?

 

Q. Do you catch shad?
A. Not many white shad. These fish come more on Hatteras than

Ocracoke. Last year they did pretty well in Ocracoke channels during
one time. It is a new fish there.

Q. I suppose the shad that go in Ocracoke go up Neuse River?

A. Yes; up Neuse River and Pamlico. What I know about the
oyster is this: I have dredged oysters in Pamlico Sound four years and
I have oystered twenty years more than that. The present oyster law
is very good if we had the means to carry it out, but like it has been
for the past two or four years the patrols have gone on at the proper
time and the season for oystering is pretty well laid out and if we had
those laws executed to the extent of the law it would be very good;
but not having the means to hire men to put on the patrol and duly
patrol the oyster beds has been very slack. The Oyster Commission
comes off the 15th of March and then the people turn to the oysters
and catch anything and everything from the bottom that they can, car-
ries it in different little creeks and there he kills a lot by putting them
in; others carry them to market after the law expires. The Virginian
comes in here and carries our oysters to Virginia and the people start
in anew after the patrol is taken off. There should be a patrol, in my
judgment, all the year, looking after the industry before the time and
after the time. I think the oysters should be culled properly. Two
years ago they were allowed forty days to plant after the oyster season,
and they would take the little oysters off the beds and put them in on a
private bed. They say they might just as well sell them as for a fellow

to put them on his private beds.
Mr. Webb:—I would say to the Committee that under the present

law, even if we had the means, it does not allow us to keep the patrol
on after a certain time.

Mr. Lee:—Stop dredging at night for two years. We should have
some dredging. When I went into the business the oysters were just
about 1 1-2 inches long and were no good, and we got from eight to
fifteen cents per bushel. We worked on them four or five years and
when I quit dredging we were getting forty, fifty, and seventy-five cents.
We, the natural oystermen of North Carolina, oyster and cultivate
those oysters, keep the little ones down, throw him back on the bottom
and let him mature and sell the big ones, and we can make more out of

it than we can if we stop dredging for two years. eg
Q. Is there any territory in Carteret County where it is practicable

to dredge that any one has been prohibited from it, say for the last
six years?

A. No.

 
 
    
   
    
   
     
    
    
    
    
    
   
    
     
   
    
    
    
    
     
    
    
   
     
    
    
     
     
     
     
    
    
     
     
     
     
   
     
   
     
     
     
     
     
       

 

180 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Is there any conflict in this county between the dredgers?

A. None at all.

Q. The statistics show that in 1901 the State of North Carolina
saved something like $27,000 from the oyster industry. Since then
there has been a great decline. Can you tell us why there has been a
decrease in the receipts?

A: The decrease is in the oysters and the demand for the oysters.

Q. Why is there such a decrease in the oyster?

A. We have caught practically everything off the bottom, shells

and all.
Q. If you think they catch everything off the bottom of the sound,

do you think it would be advisable to have a closed season for two or
three years to prohibit the catching of oysters?

A. No, I don’t think so. There are enough oysters on our rocks now
that would come up in a little growth, and they never make anything.
You have io continually cull the oysters to make anything out of it. In
two years time forty or fifty oysters will come on one and smother it
out.

Q. If the bottom has been cleaned off, how do you propose to protect
the oysters?

A. There are enough left there for seed and there are still some
shells. What I meant by cleaned off, I didn’t exactly mean all.

Q. You mean that you had stripped it of the marketable oysters?

A. Yes.

Q. How did the catch of oysters this past season compare with the
catch of the past three or four years?

A. I think it was a little bit to the gain. I think we had more oysters
this season than for the past. three or four.

Q. Can you tell me something about the prices?

A. The prices have ranged this year all the way from ten to twenty-
five cents. -

Q. How do these prices compare with those of ten years ago?

A. I think they compare pretty close.

Q. How do the number of oysters caught now compare with the num-
ber caught then?

A. There was ten to one.

Q. What do they get now mostly off these natural beds?

A. Shells, mussels, and little oysters that are no good.

Q. Do you know of any oyster beds in this State that have been
absolutely wiped out so that there is no possibility of their being re-
seeded ?

A. Yes, I do.

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 181

Are there many such places?
Some few.
Are they of considerable area?
Anywhere from 100 to 500 yards square.
What, in your opinion, ought to be done with such a bottom ?
I think it ought to be filled over.
Q. If the State were to re-seed that bottom, what assurance would it
have that it would not be destroyed again ?
A. They would if it was not protected by the State.
Q. Under the present arrangement, you think it is impossible to

protect those beds?
A. The vessels from other places slip in here through the canal and

they go on the rock and tack and tack so as to make you think they are
not getting oysters, and that night they will go out in some tributary of
the sound and make you think he is dredging too.

Q. How do they carry these oysters out of the State if it is contrary
to law?

A. This is after the law expires, certainly.
Q. If the Oyster Inspector were on that reef he would be able to

detect that?
A. No, not at all. We have one oyster bottom or bed in Pamlico

Sound that almost the whole of Atlantic used to oyster on. That has
been bringing valuable oysters for the last forty years and now I don’t
suppose you could get two bushels a day on it and I have worked a boat
there and got 400 bushels a day.

Q. Is there any reason except from lack of means as to why they have

not carried on this inspection ?

A. I don’t know.

Q. What causes that depletion in the oyster industry?

A. They take them up, shells and all. The citizens suppose they
dredge there during the night. The citizens of Atlantic go over in
Hyde County and bring over shells and put on the bottoms for their
own support.

Q. What amendment to the law would you suggest to protect and

foster the oyster industry in this State? 3
A. I should recommend a patrol for twelve months. I think that a

man ought to be equipped with a gasoline boat and that he patrol cer-
tain portions of water; from Piney Point to Portsmouth, say. That
may be very easily protected by one patrol boat.

Q. Do you think that if the State kept up a sufficient patrol it would
be enough protection so that there would be an increase in the oysters

there?

rPOoOPOPO

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182 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. Ido. In three years time they can have all the oysters that there
is any demand for.

Q. Are there any men who have planted private oyster gardens in
this county?

A..I don’t know about the private bottoms. Down at Portsmouth
they have some planted bottoms.

Q. Suppose the State were to plant shells on the exhausted bottom
and only a few would go there and dredge the oysters planted; would
that be fair to the others?

A. No. We want this especially for tongs; do not want any dredg-

ing done. Want a protection there to keep them from bothering these

oysters within a term of three years, and then have the cull law en-

ore You have to have a man to preside over it to see that he does
0 lt.

Q. If the tongers are allowed to do business on this bottom, then the
State would be planting these oysters for the individual. What license
ought the tonger to pay for that privilege?

A. They ought to pay a license of not less than $2.50 to the man in
the boat.

Q. You think that it would be fair if the State were to pay for plant-
ing these oysters for these people to-pay a license for oystering there?

A. They would be the proudest people in the world to do it.

Q. You were dredging about 1902. What did you have to pay at
that time on the dredge hook?

A. I paid about $2.50 on the gross ton.

Q. Since 1904 that was reduced to $1.50?

A. $1.50 in 1904.

Mr. Webb:—The license tax on the tonger from 1903 was reduced. I
want to say for the benefit of the Committee, the past season I think
the total of the licenses issued to dredgers was somewhere between $850
and $1,000, and in this county alone in 1903 I think I’turned in about
$1,000 in one month, the opening month of the season. Now it is down
to about $1,000 for the whole State. That has been caused largely by
the demand. There is a law that required a man to procure license
from the clerk of the court in the county in which he lived so that we
could tell how much each county paid in. Mr. Meekins was clerk of
the court in Dare County at that time. They had to pay the clerk
twenty-five cents for issuing the license.

Q. Do you think it is better for the clerk of the court to issue the
license ?

A. I don’t know as it is any better. The twenty-five cents license on
the tonger went to the clerk of the court prior to 1903; since that time
we have been issuing the licenses, which went into our revenue. I be-

29 GT NR NT NE ATA LRAT eA any Sa gD A Gin IRON CS Nt RR OR RTT g acs

 

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 183

lieve it is expensive for the State to issue these licenses, because it often
costs more than twenty-five cents to find a fellow.

MR. RANDALL,

I think the State of North Carolina needs a Fish Commission, and
needs it for the whole State. I moved to Morehead City in 1870 and
went into the fish business. In fact, I was the only one started at that
time in the business. I have been handicapped by these local laws all
my life. One fellow wants to keep the other fellow from doing what he
wants to do himself. The fishermen themselves have their nets and

_ double them. One part of the county wants one thing and another part

wants another, and while I was in the Legislature of 1905 it was a con-
tinual wrangle. My opinion is that we need a general law for the whole
State. Take the people down east, these fellows say you can’t set drop
nets here and go over in Pamlico County and set their nets.

Q. What is your idea about that? Do you think it would be advisable
to allow them to set pound nets in certain parts of Carteret County in
certain times of the year?

A. I don’t know how you are going to suit our people at all. I am
in favor of drop nets myself. Our people don’t want them and they
have to be educated before they do want them.

Q. Do you think we ought to have a closed season as to fishing for
any particular fish in these waters?

A. Yes, in my opinion, a fish that hatches in the rivers and lakes can
be destroyed if not protected. The mullets that spawn at sea and blue-
fish, I don’t think you would destroy them at all.

Q. What could you tell us about oysters?

A. In my opinion, ever since the Oyster Commission has been estab-
lished they should require every man who takes a bushel of oysters out
of the sound to put back a bushel of shells.

Q. What method of enforcement would you have for that? S

A. I do not know.
Q. What do you think of the suggestion that where these bottoms

have been exhausted the State should undertake to replenish them?

A. The State ought to make the people who have the privilge of get-
ting the oysters replenish them.

Mr. Webb:—It seems to me the shell belongs to the one who buys the
oyster.

Q. How would it do to say, provided a man returns so many shells

to the bottom he shall be exempted from the license?
A. I don’t know. That would suit me. Down at Portsmouth I

thought at one time there were enough shells for me to ship shells for
iwenty years. It is a blowing sand shoal now.

 
 

 

 

184 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Can you make some suggestions to the Committee as to what they
should do regarding these matters?

A. I recommend that you people get together and make this thing a
State affair.

Q. Do you know whether many fish go through Ocracoke Inlet that
are kept down in Core Sound? Do you think any of the fish that are
caught in Core Sound have come through Oregon Inlet? Would the
protection of Oregon Inlet be of interest to the fishermen ?

A. I don’t know. I think the fish that come out of Ocracoke Inlet
not only go up Neuse River, but up Albemarle Sound.

Mr. Lee:—We get all our fish through Hatteras and Oregon Inlets.

Q. The enforcement of the law relating to the matter of keeping open
Oregon and Hatteras inlets would be of interest to the fishermen in the

extreme eastern part of Carteret County and also to the fishermen on
Core Sound and up Neuse River?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you think it would be of any advantage to the fishermen in the
northern part of the county who live on Neuse River if the government
should place in the Neuse from five to ten to fifteen million shad each
year?

A. Yes, it is bound to benefit the people, even down here.

Q. You think that the hatchery is a pretty good thing for shad?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. Coming to your statement as to the enforcement of the law in
other counties outside of Carteret and the putting of young shad in
their streams outside of Carteret, would it not be of benefit to Carteret
County ?

A. It is bound to be. What is a benefit to your county is bound to be
a benefit to Carteret.

Q. Do you think it would be fair to ask the fishermen of Hyde, Pam-
lico, and Craven to be taxed so that we could get a hatchery on Neuse
River and yet leave Carteret County out? Do you think it would be
fair to tax one set of people for the benefit of another?

A. I am willing to bear my part of that tax.

MR. POTTER.

I am not a fisherman. The fish business or fish interests are as
diversified as any other business of North Carolina, and a law that is
applicable to Carteret could not be made applicable to Chowan or Pas-
quotank or other counties to the south of us, Carteret County has not
the depth of water in it that others have and yet it extends over about
ninety miles of water. I have been engaged in the fish business for
thirty years. I commenced before the first pound net was set in North

 

 

 

fi

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 185

Carolina and was instrumental in putting in the first pound net. I
have seen that pound net destroy more fish than have been caught in
North Carolina since. I have seen them brought in and carried to the
guano factories in loads. They did away with pound nets down here
and then started long seines. Since that time they have instituted
another kind of fishing called purse seines. I have seen these bring in
fish that would have been worth a lot of money if allowed to grow.

Q. What mesh would you suggest?

A. I would not suggest any, because I don’t think you can make a
law to be enforced against it.

Q. What in your judgment would be the proper mesh?

A. I don’t know. I think the idea would be the establishment of a
Department of Fisheries with the Fish Commission, appointing with-
out any reference to party lines, and let the employees of that depart-
ment be under Civil Service and then require atiy man or prohibit any
man from having in his possession any fish under a certain size or
width. I got Mr. Bowers to send me 500,000 young shad. I put them
up in Newport River the next season. I can’t tell you what number of
them were brought back of that (measuring hand) length. They were
brought back as herrings. We had some few shad the next season after.
Mr. Bowers wanted a report on it and I told him the results. He agreed
with me in saying that the shad we had that year were not from the
fry that we put in the year before, but that it was a sporadic run. I
have no objection to the small mesh net, but I should say they should not
eatch a fish of a certain kind under a certain size. We have a law
which says you can’t catch fish within the three mile limit; it is a good
law, but how would you enforce it? It looks to me as though the prob-
lem might be solved by regulating the size of fish caught and making it
applicable to the whole State. I have listened to Mr. Lee’s statement
with a great deal of interest. All migratory fish that come in this
sound go through Pamlico and Albemarle sounds and their tributaries
to spawn during the summer months, and the only time they are caught
in Carteret County is when they are going through. If the weather is
seasonable or warm’ the speckled trout come in in February, but the
other fish come in in March or April.

Q. You were speaking of not permitting a man to have a fish under
a certain size in his possession. If a fish goes into his net under this
size what is he to do with it?

A. They could avoid it to a very great extent. Some would be killed
but the quantity would be very small as compared with those killed now.
In a pound net the number destroyed is so very great.

Q. Suppose they have a mesh of four or five inches?

 

 
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186 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. It has been said by the fishermen that they could not use them
unless they used a very small mesh, because of the fact that the sharks
would destroy the nets.

Q. If it were made unlawful to have a fish under a certain size in
your possession, would that not have a tendency to make them use nets
of a larger mesh?

A. It would do it and you would have a better supply of fish than you
ever had.

Q. If he can not dispose of the small fish they would just be a trouble
to him?

A. He would not catch them. That would put every man on a par.

Q. What would you suggest as to your idea of the proper sizes of the
different fish that would be allowed to be used? i

A. A trout ought not to be caught under 13 inches; as it is he is
caught 8 inches. A butterfish is a small fish that does not grow over
six qr eight inches long. Spots and gray trout, same size for each. I
don’t know as I ever caught a spot over 6 inches. Mackerel, not under
thirteen or fifteen inches. Croakers, it is too common a fish to be reg-
ulated. Bluefish, about the same as the trout; might run 12 inches.
Sheepshead, one weighing 3 pounds. White shad, five to six pounds.

MR. DYE.

I am in menhaden fishing and fish mostly on the outside.

Q. What is your idea in regard to permitting pound nets to be set
on the south side of Neuse River in Carteret County?

A. I am not a pound net fisherman. My experience is that they are
destructive of fish.

Q. Do you think that was caused by the manner in which the fish are
taken from the nets?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you handle any other fish at your factory besides menhaden ?

A. No.

Q. None are offered there for sale now?

A. No.

Q. What suggestion can you make as to the amendment of the law
so as to foster and protect these industries?

Q. For the menhaden ?

A. Yes. We don’t like to take the small menhaden. We stand
against our own fishermen catching them. We did have a law passed
not to allow anything less than a 2 inch mesh, but Brunswick County

had it amended so that they are exempted and they come up to our door
and take the small fish.

 

ANE EES I TTP TT TOT RPO Ls A

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 187

Q. Do you think that law ought to be repealed or apply to all the
counties ?

Aj Tedo.

Q. You think really for the best interest of the fishing industries it
ought to be repealed ?

A. Yes. No, I think the law ought to stand, but the exemption
should be taken from Brunswick.

Q. You are of the opinion that there ought to be a general State !aw
in regard to fishing?

A. Yes.

DR. PRATT.

There is a resolution I would like to introduce before this meeting
closes. It is on account of the boat we have been having from Edenton
to Washington. I would make a motion that the thanks of the Commit-
tee be extended to Captain Nelson and the other three members com-
posing the crew of the Atlantic for the courtesy shown the Committee.

Judge Graham:—I move a similar resolution to Commissioner Webb,

through whose instrumentality the boat was furnished the Committee.
The following resolutions were passed:

Resolved, That the sincere thanks and appreciation of the committee be
extended to Captain John A. Nelson, Mr. Thomas R. Nelson, Mr. James
Roberson, and Mr. T. C. Willis of the Atlantic for their uniform courtesy
during the trip from Edenton to Washington.

W. C. NEWLAND,
Lieutenant-Governor.
A. W. GRAHAM,
Speaker of the House.

Resolved, That the thanks of the committee be extended to W. M. Webb,
Oyster Commissioner, for his courtesy in placing at the disposal of the com-
mittee the Atlantic, belonging to the Oyster Commissioner, and for his court-
eous treatment while in Morehead.

W. C. NEwLanp,
Lieutenant-Governor.
A. W. GraHAm,

Speaker of the House.

Resolved, That the sincere thanks of the committee are hereby extended

to Mr. Theo. S. Meekins for the valuable services he has rendered the com-
mittee during their trip.

W. C. NEWLAND,

Lieutenant-Governor.
A. W. GraHAm,
Speaker of the House.

 

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188 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

NEW BERN MEETING.

JuLy 21, 1909.

Meeting called to order by Chairman and object explained by Senator
Travis.
MR. R. A. WOOD.

Q. How long have you been engaged in fishing?

A. Ever since the surrender. When we began fishing around here
there were seventy-five or eighty drag nets and we had plenty of fish.
If we had bad weather we could not catch fish. All stationary nets
fishes all night and catches them gwine and coming—that is, pound nets.
High tides we can not draw a haul net and fish have a chance to go.

Q. Do you think the pound nets have done the damage?

A. When pound nets were put in this river we got all broke up.
There used to be fifty or seventy-five boats with drag nets, and now
there are not over fifteen.

Q. Are pound nets fished in the waters of Craven County?

A. Pound nets are not fished in Craven County, and have not been
for some time, but in Pamlico. They are now fished according to law
from the mouth of the river to Wilkinson Point.

Is there any limit as to how far the nets can be fished?

I don’t know.

Your idea is that pound nets ought not to be fished?

Pound nets ought not to be fishéd at all in the small river.

How about in the sound?

In the sound they won’t hurt so bad. Set forty or fifty of them
pound nets in a narrow river and they catch the fish when they come
up and when they start back. It also kills thousands of them and they
are thrown away.

Is it practicable to fish a pound net without killing the small fish ?
Yes, if they use big meshes.

I mean, after they are in the pound?

Yes, throw the little ones overboard. A

Doesn’t it necessarily destroy a good many of the little fish?

Yes.

. Could that be effected if the fishermen would take care to get the
smaller fish out? .

A. Yes, we could get the small fish in and put them overboard, but
after they get in a pound they seem to get addled.

Q. What kind of fish are you referring to?

rPOrPOPSO

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to go and examine each pound.

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 189

A. All kinds of little fish: spots, croakers, bluefish, mackerel, shad,
herring, ete.

Q. Is that done to any extent?

A. I believe they have stopped that awhile.

Q. Is there compost made out of the fish in this county ?

A. No, not in this county. Don’t catch anything now to make com-
post out of.

Q. What recommendation have you to make to the Committee that

would in any way increase the supply of fish? What laws would you
recommend and what changes of laws?

A. None; if you make them take them pound nets out like we fel-
lows do. We have to take our nets out several days in the week.

Mr. Green:—On the Craven side you can not fish a pound net at all.

Q. Is that the law in Craven County? Have you a law in Craven
that prohibits fishing certain times of the year?

A. Sometimes the weather prohibits fishing all the days of the week.

Q. In your opinion would it be well to prohibit fishing certain days
in the week?

A. That would be about right. You should give them two days.

Mr. Green:—I think we have an old statute dating back in the 70’s
that prohibits fishing with a seine from Saturday evening at sunset
until Monday morning.

Q. Is that law generally observed ?

A. Not observed at all.

Mr. Green:—We had a law that no pound nets should be fished in
Neuse River, and then they had a law that they could be fished on the
Pamlico side during certain days of the week, but I found out from
some people who live down there that that law is not regarded at all.
They stay in all the week, although the law said they should be fished
only certain days in the week.

Q. Does that apply to pound nets?

A. Yes.

Q. Is there any practical way of enforcing that provision of the law?
A. I do not know.

Q. Would it be necessary to have an inspector there every day of
the year to see that it was done?

A. Yes.

Q. How could you go about that?
A. I don’t know.

Q. Could any one passing along, without actually examining the
pound, tell anything about it?

A. It is simply a question of dropping the funnel. He would have

    
   
   
    
   
   
  
  
  
  
  
  
   
  
  
  
   
 
  
  
  
   
    
   
   
    
   
  
    

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190 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Are your waters under the supervision of the Fish Commission ?

A. I don’t know.

Mr. Green:—No.

Q. Do you think it would be advisable to have the Fish Commission
supervise each county in the State?

A. I think we ought all to be treated alike, not let some fish big mesh
nets and others little mesh nets, and some catch little fish and put them
on the market and reduce the price for others. I fish 1 1-2 inch bar
and can not catch little trout and bluefish and herring.

Q. What is the size of your net?

A. Thirty yards in the lead.

Q. What is the size of the pound nets that are fished down in the
sound ?

A. About 1 3-8 or 1 1-4 inch.

Q. What kind of fish do they catch?

A. .They catches all kinds, grey trout, bluefish, croakers, spots, mack-
erel.

Q. Are they the same pound nets that they fish for shad?

' A. Same ones.

Q. When you say 1 1-2 inch, do you mean 1 1-2 inch extended? That
is, in your seine?

A. We fish 1 1-2 inch bar now, 3 inch stretch. Gives what we call
a bunt of 30 yards.

Q. Do you fish these pound nets all the year round?

A. Yes. Fishing down below catches them all in the pound nets,
down below at the inlets. Fish don’t have much chance anywhere.

Q. What would you think of a provision preventing any one from
having in their possession a fish of a certain size?

A. That would hardly work out. If you put them in the boat they
won’t live; if you take them out and throw them overboard, it will be
different.

Q. Suppose it was against the law for a man to buy or sell a trout
below 9 inches; would they fish a net that would catch any smaller
than that size?

A. Yes, I think it would be better to have a law to regulate the mesh.

Q. Wouldn’t it be troublesome to the fishermen to catch these fish if
they could not sell them? Wouldn’t they use a larger mesh ?

A. Yes, you catch the little mullets with the small mesh, but with a
larger mesh you would catch the larger ones.

Q. You said something about the gasoline engines. What effect do

they have on the fish? Do they have any?
A. I don’t believe they do. They fish around the docks here with

hook and line and catch them. I have been through schools of mullets

 

Ss ERLE IN SS STATS STEM AL TL Te a ae TTT NT EE RR STIS A AMOI EMT TER RE ETRE TE OMI SF

a

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 191

after a boat has passed. There is not but one thing that it is right to
fish in our river and that is what we call drag nets. I fish only three
nights a week with mine. I give the fish a good chance.

Q. Do you fish it now?

A. Yes; I fish a drop net. You can not catch them moonlight nights.

Q. Do you fish a gill net?

A. I fish gill nets and sometimes you can catch them along shore.
When they get blinded you can catch them any time. He has a film that
comes over his eyes to protect them and when this comes you can catch
them any time.

Q. What width in the stream ought you to allow for the fish to come
up the river?

A. When a fish starts up the river he goes along the shore and the
middle of the river too. Maullets go along the shore.

Q. What is the length of the net used by you?

A. I use 200 yards length.

Q. Is there any law in this county prohibiting the length of net to
be used?

A." No.

Q. How many nets are used in the river above New Bern?

A. There used to be a great many, but now the fish are ketched down
so. When the bridges get across they put these set nets in so thick you
could not catch any shad at all.

Q. Are there any men living on the river above New Bern that en-
gage regularly in fishing?

A. Only in the spring.

Q. How far up do they engage in herring fishing?

A. All the way.

Q. Do they catch any herring between New Bern and Goldsboro?
A. Used to, sometimes.

Q. To what extent do you think the fish have decreased in the waters
during the past ten years?
A. Pretty near all; not many left.

Q. What would be your suggestion as to the best way to increase the
fishing in these waters?

A. Take the pound nets and set nets out of the river. Sometimes we
don’t fish for three weeks.

Q. There are no pound nets used on Craven or Carteret sounds?

A. No; only down at the inlets and the fish have no chance to get up
the river at all.

Q. Have you been down to Ocracoke Inlet in the last year or two?
A. No.

 
 

 

 

192 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Have you any reliable information in regard to the pound nets

there ?

A. No.
Q. Do you think that the pound nets used on the Pamlico side are so

numerous as to affect the fishing up the Neuse River?

A. It has been my experience from fishing that more fish travel the
north shore than the south shore, that is more salt water fish. The fish
want to come in the river when the water is salt.

Q. Which way do the shad come?

A. Come right up Neuse unless there is something to stop him; since
the bridges have been here and so many nets set along the posts, they
don’t come up.

Q. What effect have the bridges on the fishing ?
A. When a shad starts up he sees these nets and the bridges and

turns back.
Q. Do you think the nets should be kept away from the bridges?

Re Yea.
Q. If that were done, do you think the bridge itself would interfere

with the catch of the fish up the stream?

A. No; he will go through all right. Nothing stops him except nets.

Mr. Ives:—The trouble is that the men set their nets in close prox-
imity to the bridge and when a fish is backing up in the night time and
comes in contact with these posts he will dodge back and get into the
net. Some of the fishermen tie their nets to the bridge.

Q. How far do these nets come out from the shore?

A. They are set clean across the river.

Q. What distance would you think would be the best in which to say
that no net should be set across Trent and Neuse rivers?

A. Three miles or one and one-half miles or two.

Q. Do you think there ought not to be nets within three miles of the
bridges? ;

A. One and one-half, or something like that. When you get right up

in the narrow part of the river and the nets are so close, a fish can not

get by at all.
Q. How wide is the river at the bridge?

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 193

Q. What do you think of this law that was passed during the past
session of the Legislature (chapter 906, Acts of 1909) limiting the size
of the fish that can be caught? Do you think that is a wise law? Have
you seen any in the market here any less than those dimensions?

A. A spot never grows five inches long.

Q. Have you seen any of these other fish less than those dimensions
on the market at any time?

A. Sometimes, but they mostly come from down below.

Q. Have you had any experience in fishing pound nets?

A. No; never fished a pound net.

Q. Have you ever seen them fished ?

A. Have seen them at a distance.

Q. What would you think of a provision of the law, instead of pro-
hibiting the fishing of pound nets, restrict them to certain parts of
the river—prevent them from extending so far out in the river?

A. Not much, because a fish, when he starts up the rivers, he works
along shore and will get caught just as well as if the nets extended way
out.

Q. From your personal knowledge could you say how far out in the
river these pound nets extend at the present time?

A. Five or six hundred yards from the edge of the shallow and I
guess sometimes the shallow is 150 to 200 yards in from deep water.

Q. That would be 700 or 800 yards from the land?

A. Yes; from the land. A shallow sometimes makes a half mile in
the river and you can stand out in the water.

MR. H. H. HUFF.

Q. Have you any recommendations that would improve the fishing
industry of your county?

A. Pound nets are the cause of our scarcity of fish. Nothing else in
the world. They have destroyed our fish. They catch them going and
coming. They set them half a mile off shore and have four or five
pounds in a lead.

Q. Do you think that the pound nets ought not to be fished in any of
the waters of North Carolina?

 

 

 

 

 

 

A. Almost a mile. The bridge is a protection to the nets and they
can be put in there as thick as they want to. The boats will not tear

them up.
Q. From your observation, where do you think is the spawning ground

in this river? Where do the fish that come up the river deposit their

eggs?
A. Eight miles above and up is their natural spawning ground, where

the water is noways salt.

A. I think they ought to be taken out of all waters.

Q. What is your suggestion, after what we have heard, that if you
prevent the fishing of pound nets, that the other nets are not sufficient
to supply the market?

A. They would be if we had fish like we used to have them. We
used to have more fish than we could sell. I have seen the pound nets
drawn in and the shad would be lying all along the docks, and they

  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
     

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194 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

would give them away and use them for compost. They actually used
the fish down in Pamlico County on their farms. Now they can not
catch them to eat.

Q. In fishing the pound nets, can they liberate the small fish, or does
it necessarily kill a great many?

A. It necessarily kills a great many. If you make the meshes large
the fish in the pound will force the pound. I have seen nets when they
would have to get a lot of men to go down and help lift the pound up
with the little mackerel meshed in the nets.

Q. In bad weather when you can not get to the pound nets, doesn’t it
happen that a great many fish die?

A. Yes; they drown. We had plenty of fish here until the pound
nets came in use; shad were plentiful. I have sold Mr. Ives plenty of
shad for twenty and forty cents apiece. Now you can not get a shad
for less than a dollar.

Q. Would you recommend that the entire waters of eastern North
Carolina be placed under the supervision of a Fish Commission and
Board and let them make rules and regulations as they see fit to govern
the different counties?

A. Yes. :

Q. If they had a small tax, do you think it would be better to let the
conditions exist as they are now or to have a Board of Fisheries to make
rules for the different counties? Wouldn’t that be the best means of
furthering it so as to have a proper enforcement of the laws?

A. Yes.

Mr. Green:—In the event that a small tax had to be levied on these
men, I would like for Dr. Pratt to state about what that would be for
the year.

Dr. Pratt;—About $1 on each net. Some of your fishermen would
not be taxed over thirty or forty cents.

Mr. Huff :—Right here I would like to say we have a law here regard-
ing the size of the mesh of the net. Our county has the proper size net.
Pamlico County uses 1 1-4 and 1 1-8 inch; Carteret County does the
same thing. I think we ought to abide by the same law. Carteret
county catches hundreds of fish to our one. Those people fish from 3-4
inch to 1 inch and all sizes. I think we ought to have a little tax to
enforce this law.

Q. Would it be better to repeal all laws or to have a law to protect
the fish? Don’t you think there ought to be a tax to pay for this pro-
tection ?

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 195

Q. (Dr. Pratt gives rate of tax). These are the licenses and tax fees
imposed ; do you think they would work a hardship on the fishermen ?
* A. They look pretty reasonable.

Q. What kind of net do you fish?

A. We fish a drag net.

Q. Do you recommend any change in the size of the net that should
be used in this county?

A. I do if other counties are going to fish small mesh nets.

Q. You think that Craven ought to be given the same privileges?

A. The proper net is 1 1-2 inch and the law says 1 3-8 inches after
tarring.

Q. What is your idea of the proper net the fishermen ought to use
in these waters?

A. That is the proper net, 1 3-8 inch mesh. That would not catch
the little fish. A drag net is so different from a pound net; a pound
net catches everything, from little sizes up to sturgeon. Take a drag
net, it goes down the river and makes three hauls probably in twenty-
four hours. These pound nets are in the river constantly, never taken
up except once a season, catching all the time, and they will destroy
the seed fish unless something is done.

Q. How often do they fish these pound nets?

A. Every day.

Q. If they do not fish them in three days are many of the small fish
destroyed by the large fish?

A. Yes; sometimes they do. I don’t think that amounts to anything.
You see they take those nets, bundle them down and get the fish in a
bunch, pull them in the boat, little and large together, and while they
are picking out the big ones the smaller fish die. They destroy thou-
sands and thousands. I think over 15,000 pounds of small fish are
brought to this market every year. It used to be that you could not sell
the little ones, but now you can sell anything.

Q. Do you live in the city?

A. I live in the city. There is something else I would like to explain
about the bridges. They are setting nets close to the bridges and when
the water is clear at night they catch them. When the water is yellow
and the tide is running hard the set nets do not catch shad; when the
water is slack they catch them. I think a great advantage to the shad
business would be this: that no shad shall be caught after the 15th day
of April. We have shoals and in the middle of April the shad are
washing out there and I don’t think they ought to be caught at that

time. Before the pound nets came there were two shad nets to one now
and we had plenty of shad. TI have seen it so a little boat could just get
between the nets. We had thousands of shad up Neuse River then.

A. I think we ought to have a law to protect the fish and that we
ought to pay a tax, but not too much.

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196 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

When the tide is slack they catch; when running, they don’t catch.
With the pound net they catch them all the time.

Q. How much of the river do you think ought to be left open in which
no nets should be fished ?

A. I don’t know. I don’t see that the way we fish destroys any fish at
all. We don’t catch anything but salable fish.

Q. Don’t you think that the people above here ought to have an oppor-
tunity to catch the fish? In order to do that a certain portion of the
river ought to be left open? What proportion do you think ought to be
left open?

A. Yes. If the people will take pound nets out of the river, in the
course of five years the people up the river will get more shad and
herring than they know what to do with. We used to have a number of
wood boats run up this river. When those pound nets first came in the
river they had to take those boats and charter them to carry shad and
herring.

Q. How long have these pound nets been in use?

A. They have been in use about fifteen months in the rivers, but they
they have been in use fifty years in the sounds. I have had some experi-
ence in pound net fishing. They have destroyed the sheepshead in Ches-
apeake Bay. The northern part of this river used to be our principal
fishing ground, and now you can not catch them at all. I have actually
had to quit the business.

Q. The south side of the river is fished from here on down to Pam-
lico Sound and on the north side the nets are set; what is the difference
between the catch on the south and north side?

A. Two-thirds difference.

Q. Is the fresh water more on the south side of the river than the
north? ;

A. Yes; the fresh water often confines itself more to the south side
of the channel than the north.

MR. IVES.

I went into the fishing business in 1874 at Beaufort. In those days
there were large quantities of fish caught in close proximity to the docks.
It was not necessary to send any boats away. There were more caught
than needed. There were probably many more fish shipped in those
days than now. In fact, in North Carolina New Bern and Beaufort
were the principal fishing points. This section furnished nearly all the
fish consumed in the south. It was no trouble for the dealers to get at
that time all the fish wanted. The waters were teeming with fish. They
were furnished to the people in the city at very low prices. If the same
twine was fished in the waters today as was fished in those days I am

———— _

 

 

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 197

satisfied that the Atlantic and North Carolina Railroad could not carry
the fish away. ‘Today it is almost impossible to get fish enough to
supply the local markets. Norfolk and some other points in Virginia
today ship more fish into North Carolina than are furnished by the
dealers in North Carolina, when thirty years ago we furnished all the
country. ‘

Q. Do you think that is by reason of the completion of the railroad
from Norfolk and Edenton and Elizabeth City, and giving the people
in these waters closer communication with Norfolk than their own
State?

A. That has something to do with it, but it is more the quantity of
fish that they get through our local trade that affects the quanity we get
here. We have good trade and good orders, but can not supply them.
I have bought, principally for my own trade, which is now very small,
fish caught mostly in Carteret County several years ago, and now I
only do a small business in here and I presume I now get one-fourth of
my supply from Norfolk. I used to buy herring here for fifty and
seventy-five cents a thousand, and during the last two years they were
$5 a thousand. That is the condition.

Q. That is the condition; what is the remedy?

A. Thirty-five years ago the fishermen of Carteret County fished
large mesh nets. I do not know that there were any nets fished there
less than 1 1-2 inch. They didn’t want to catch anything but salable
fish. They sold then mostly trout, there being very little sale for gray
trout, large spots and hog fish, large mullet that were salable. Small
sized fish were not salable at all in those days. They did not catch them.
They have been getting their nets smaller and smaller. Some were in
this county, some were in Pamlico County. In fact there was no fishing
in Pamlico County until the last ten or fifteen years. Then they all
used good-sized mesh nets. They have it now down to about mosquito
net size. I am getting at the opinion now with Mr. Huff in regard to
different counties fishing different sized nets. Four or six years ago
the Legislature passed a law making a certain size net for Craven
County. Carteret County wanted to be exempted, as she usually does.
They have always opposed dredging in their own county and fishing
pound nets and yet they want to go in every other county and dredge
and fish pound nets. Years ago I had a very valuable property at
Cape Lookout in the open ocean. I was interested in setting pound nets
in the bay, but the Carteret County men got up in arms and sent Mr.
Dunean to the Legislature. He worked up the prejudices of the fisher-
men to send him to regulate fishing. They passed a law prohibiting
pound nets from being fished in Carteret County, even in the open
ocean, but they go to other parts of the State and fish pound nets and

 

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198 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

dredge oysters. There were probably more men from that county dredg-
ing oysters and fishing pound nets in other counties than all others
combined. Four years ago, when this law was passed regulating the
size of the mesh, of course the representative from Carteret County
wanted his county exempted, as usual. The fishermen here observe the
law. I think all the fishermen in Pamlico observe the law. .I have
bought a good many nets for the fishermen and those fishermen in Pam-
lico County at great loss, had to destroy or sell their nets at a small price
and purchase large mesh nets in order to conform to the law. I think
in nearly every instance the fishermen conformed to the law in spite of
the inconvenience. Result: Carteret County was exempted; their fisher-
men come through the waters of Adams Creek and fish pound nets and
any mesh net in other waters. Carteret County borders: largely upon
the waters of Pamileo and Neuse River. They have quite a large
stretch of water in their county on these sounds. So their fishermen
came through and were not satisfied to go in Adams Creek, but fished in
* * ¥*, They caught thousands and thousands of small mullet after
this law was passed. I have sent some to the Legislature to show what
these people were doing. They sold them to some of the dealers here at
fifty to seventy-five cents a box. ‘These mullet grow very rapidly.
One of these small mullet caught in the winter, if allowed to grow until
next fall, would be a marketable mullet. They grow so fast that I have
seen mullet in the spring of the year that would not be over 1 1-8 inches
or 1 3-4 inches long that would have doubled in size and value by the
fall. Those caught and sold in the spring at fifty or seventy-five cents
per box, by the next fall would have been worth five times as much.
They catch anything they can sell. If they had not been allowed to
sell these or dealers not allowed to buy them, they would not have caught
them. In the winter time they school up in these rivers and creeks and
they throw these nets around them and catch them in great quantities.
If the fishermen from Carteret County can come through that they
would catch $20 or $25 worth of fish, and if they had been allowed to
stay in the water until the next winter they would have been worth
$1,000. That is about the condition. The whole thing is a selfish bus-
iness, and always will be. Mr. Wood is opposed to pound nets; so am I,
unless they can be largely restricted. I don’t believe the pound nets do
the damage that many fishermen think, if properly set. I don’t think
they ought to be allowed to be set in this river above Wilkerson’s Point.
I don’t think they ought to be allowed to be set within twenty-five miles
of the inlet. If used with large size mesh I don’t think they do a great
deal of harm. If the pound netters are allowed to set their nets way
out in the river and near the inlets, they will destroy a great many fish.
They do more damage, in my opinion, in the fall of the year than in the

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 199

spring. Shad and herring are spawning up in the narrow parts of the
rivers then. As to what part of the river the fish are in at any given
time depends a good deal on season. If you have freshets at a late
season the fish are kept down the river and many spawn down the river
at the mouth of the creeks.

Q. If pound nets ought not to be set above Wilkerson’s Point ought
pound nets to be set in other rivers of the State?

A. I think they ought to be restricted to the wide part of the rivers.
As I was about to say, Governor, I believe the pound nets do more
damage in the fall than in the spring. These fish that are spawned by
the shad and herring stay in the river until fall and then they get up a
fairly good size. When going out to sea they are apt to be caught up
by those nets that are set in the narrow parts of the sound and the
pounds catch them and destroy them in great quantities. That is where
I think the pounds do a great damage. I believe if set in the wide part
of the river and in the open sounds and under the proper restrictions as
to size of mesh, they would not do much damage. “As to the haul seines
I do not exactly agree with Mr. Huff. They all do damage. As he says
they use 1 3-8 inch mesh the long stretch of the net. That is just the
same as the lead of the pound. The four inch mesh will stop the fish.
They lead along the four inch fish until they get him into the pound.
Then there are the drag nets which catch a large amount of small fish.
To prove that the fishermen of Carteret County don’t use anything but
drag nets, but they destroy more fish than anybody. This summer I
have had fish consigned to me by Mr. Wallace so small as to be almost
unmarketable. He has done more to encourage the destruction of fish
than any one I know. He has consigned to me fish this season that I
could not sell on the New Bern market at $1 a barrel. I was in Phila-
delphia two or three years ago and I saw fish there from Morehead,
consigned at fifty cents per barrel, and the freight was $1.25. They
have shipped thousands and thousands of boxes of fish from Carteret
County that have had the same fate. They have done more to destroy
the fishing industry and encourage the smaller catch than any one else.
I think the whole trouble in North Carolina and Virginia is getting to
be the same. Last year the Virginian-Pilot had several editorials about
it, saying the Virginia waters were being literally cleaned up by the
small mesh nets. My idea is that they all do it. Whoever uses the small
mesh nets helps to destroy the fish. Ever since I have been in the bus-
iness it has been hard to get any legislation passed that would be bene-
ficial to the industry on account of politics. I believe it should be
taken out of the hands of the Legislature. Carteret County and Dare
County, and it has gotten so in Pamlico County and Hyde, that you
can not send a man to the Legislature unless he votes with the fisher-

 
 

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200 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

men. Representatives from these counties who go to the Legislature
are usually put on the fish and oyster committees. If it is right for the
Legislature to regulate the oyster industry it is certainly right for them
to regulate the fishing industry. When these men are put on the com-
mittees they go immediately to work to see that their counties are not
hurt. The consequence is there is very little practical legislation en-
acted that really benefits the fish interests. There is not one in a thou-
sand of the laws on the statute books that is observed today.

Q. How many men have been indicted in Craven County in the past
five years for violation of the fish laws?

A. I don’t know of one. Every fisherman in Craven County today
is breaking the law; I am breaking it myself. You can not blame these

men. ‘They went to work and tried to comply with this law by making |

their nets the size the law directed. They go down the river and come
in contact with these nets of Carteret County with their small mesh
which catch up the small fish and glut the markets.

Qs How can the Carteret County men come up here and fish in these

waters with smaller nets than Craven County men and not fish in viola-
tion of the law?

A. They come through Clubfoot Creek and fish.

Q. Why are they not indicted?

A. They simply violate the law because no one is specially charged
with the duty of enforcing it.

Q. And that is because nobody is charged with the duty of enforcing
the law? Is it because the only way to indict these men is by one fish-
erman informing on another?

A. They don’t want to do it. Now, gentlemen, in my opinion the
only thing to be done is to pass a law and make all counties conform to
it. It is not right to make Pamlico and Craven use certain size nets
and let Carteret County use other nets to glut the markets, or even to
come into our county. It is not right to say that pound nets can be
fished in Pamlico and Hyde and let Carteret men come and fish them
and not fish them in Carteret County.

Q. What do you think of permitting pound nets to be fished in Car-
teret County on the waters of the Neuse River?

A. I think they ought to be fished in Carteret County in certain
waters.

Q. What waters in Carteret do you think they should be used in?

A. On the waters of Neuse River and in the ocean, They fish them
in all the northern States. I don’t think of another county in the United
States where pound nets are not allowed to be fished in the ocean as in
Carteret County.

Q. Is it not a fact in these States that you mention that the same

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 201

complaint of the seine as is made against the nets that are fished in
the waters of this State?

A. Probably so. I think you will always find complaints made by
certain fishermen against other fishermen regarding the fishing of cer-
tain size nets,

Q. What would you think of the proposition to permit the fishing of
pound nets on the lower part of Neuse River and Pamlico Sound?

A. I don’t see why they should not be allowed to fish on one side as
much as the other. If it is right for them to go across Pamlico and
fish in Neuse River, it is right for them to be fished on Carteret side.

Q. What is the extent of the shad fisheries at the present time? Can
you give us any idea of the quantity of shad caught?

A. Yes; I can. For instance, twenty years ago I had three large
shad and herring seines on this river. I think at that time there were
about a dozen of those seines being fished below New Bern. Today
there is but one fished two miles below the city and it used to be the best
shad beach on this river. I don’t think this last year we caught over
fifty shad a day, making four or five hauls with a seine 300 or 500 yards
long. :

Q. That was unusual at that time?

A. It was not unusual at that time to take 260 shad at a haul.

Q. Are there many shad caught in other nets than seines?

A. Yes; a good many are caught in set nets. Two or three pretty
good catches were made last spring with set nets, but on the whole the
season was very poor. I suppose one-fourth as many were caught as
five or six years ago. :

Q. Have they ever caught a very great number in pound nets? *

A. I have caught in pound nets, but no great quantity. I have never
known any true pound nets to catch over 100 or 200 shad to a crew.

Q. To what do you attribute the decrease of the number of shad in
this river?

A. I think it is very largely due to the pound nets being set in the
mouth of the inlets. I think that there has been more destruction of
fish in the fall of the year than in the spring. I think they catch the
small fish as they go out.

Q. Through what inlet do you think your fish enter the sound?

A. I think most of our fish come in at Ocracoke.

Q. Do you know of your personal knowledge that the nets catch a
considerable number of young shad and down-run shad?

A. I could not say of my own personal knowledge. It would be a
very difficult matter to select out the young shad, but they do catch an
enormous quantity of small fish, and these are destroyed.

Q. How large are these fish that you suppose to be young shad?

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202 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. I suppose a young shad in the fall of the year, if he was spawned

early, would be about the size of a small herring.

Q. How many inches in length?
A. Two or three inches; about the size of a small herring.
Q. Do you think that the fishermen at that time could distinguish

between the young shad and others?
A. I think they could if they would take the trouble. They don’t

take the trouble, but dump everything out.

Dr. Moore:—It is a very difficult matter for anybody, even after a
careful examination, to distinguish between a shad two or three inches
long and a young herring.

Mr. Huff:—You can tell them by the under lip.

Mr Ives:—We sometimes catch small shad in the spring of the year.
Some years you don’t see them. I think they get mixed up with the
herring and come off with them. ;

Q.,. You can not distinguish them without careful examination ?

A. Not unless you are pretty expert.

Q. What is your opinion as to the usefulness of planting shad in the
Neuse River?

A. I think it is very useful.

Q. Do you think-that would be efficacious in continuing the supply of

fish ?
A. I think it would be, but it is largely a waste of the government’s
money and everybody else connected if they are allowed to be caught
by pound nets at the mouth of the inlets in the fall of the year. I
think if the fish could be protected after they are up in the river, as
they used to be, it would be a good thing.

Q. I understand the prime necessity is to keep open the inlets?

A. I think so. .

Q. What do they do with the run-down shad that they catch?

A. If they catch them in quantities large enough they put them on
the land. Two or three years ago the pound net fishermen at the mouth
of the river and at the inlet caught enormous quantities of small butter-
fish or starfish. They would send them up on the boats on certain days
and sell them. They call them overcoat buttons. They would sell
them at twenty-five cents to fifty cents a box. I understand there were
thousands pf boxes dumped on the land. Since the Legislature passed
its law four years ago making pound netters use larger mesh nets I have
not heard of a similar occurrence.

Q. Have you been at the inlets yourself and seen these nets set?

A. I have passed by there.
Q. Do you know as a fact that they set within less than two and one-

half miles of the inlet?

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 203

A. No, I doubt if they are set within two and one-half miles. That
is a very short distance. Two and one-half miles, for instance, Would
be just the distance of the Beaufort Inlet.

Q. We want to get your ideas as to what distance they ought to be
limited to.

A. Not less than ten or fifteen miles. You see these channels often-
times marsh up with sand bars that work down and come to a head.
Oftentimes they run out from the shore, particularly from near the
inlets. It is this way at Beaufort and Ocracoke inlets. These often
make the channels very narrow, so that the pounds set near the inlets are

in a regular funnel. They ought to be set back ten miles at least from -

the inlets.

Q. What distance would you suggest—a distance of ten miles north-
east and southwest as well as straight out in the sound?

A. Yes. Draw a ten-mile radius and exclude the nets from that en-
tire area.

Q. Would you prohibit all fishing in that sound or only the pound
nets?

A. No; I think a radius would be proper.

Q. How about the gill nets?

A. Only the pound nets, because they set all the time. The other
fishermen, those who fish drop nets and those who fish drag nets, prob-
ably during the whole fishing season would not be over one-half or two-
thirds of the time taking fish anyway. The stormy weather and heavy
winds interfere with their fishing, but the pound nets fish all the time.

Q. Do you think the gill nets ought to be prohibited from this re-
stricted area ?

A. There is a law on the statute books saying that gill nets should be
taken up on Fridays and put in Mondays, but it has not been observed.
I don’t think any gill nets ought to be fished anywhere near the inlets,
because they obstruct the passage of fish.

Q. Do you think there ought to be a closed season for all nets?

A. That is the thing that I wanted to speak of. I think there should
be a closed season for shad, commencing earlier up the Cape Fear and
following on up the coast as the season advances. I think no shad
should be allowed to be caught after a certain day, say the 15th of April,
in the Cape Fear; 20th of April in this river, and then, perhaps, a little
later as they go north. Another thing, the only way you can regulate
the size of these fish is to not allow a fish to be in the possession of any-

i body below a certain size. If you regulate the size of the mesh a great
many small fish can be caught in a large mesh net. If you regulate the
size of the fish you can certainly prevent these small fish from being
caught.

 

 

 

 
eel en ll i TI te ie

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

GRO TE S  ERPEE  P,

204 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Will you say whether you agree with this law that was passed in
the last Legislature? (Chapter 906, Acts of 1909, limiting the size of
the fish.)

A. I think something of this sort ought to be done. We should not
use any bluefish under eight inches long. That is the way they have
regulated it in the northern markets.

Q. From your observation and experience, what do you think would
be the effect of increasing the size of the net? Would there be any in-
crease in the number of fish gilled in the small net and in the large mesh.

A. No, there would be a decrease, of course.

Q. Can you explain that?

A. The fish would pass out through the meshes.

Q. Would you think that regulating the size of the mesh in that way
in regard to danger of gilling would be preferable to regulating the size
of the fish?

A. I think both.
Q. If you were to increase the size of the fish there would be a large

number that would gill in the waters, especially if the nets were not
fished every day. Would they be fit to be marketed?

A. I don’t think there would be a large number. I think most of
them would go out.

Q: Have you had any practical experience in that line that you
could relate to the Committee?

A. I was interested for several years in some large pound nets at
Cape Lookout. I have also talked with the fishermen in Pamlico that
have used the large mesh nets and they like it. They don’t get anything
for the small fish and their nets cost them less money, and while the
fish go into the pound and are swimming around, the small ones will
go out again. If the pounds are fished with the small mesh large quan-
tities of small fish go in and ean not get out, and get jammed all up
and die.

Q. You have never actually fished a pound net?

A. I have been there when they were being fished.

Mr. Huff :—It doesn’t make any difference if the pound net is four
inches large, when the water fires the fish can not get out. That is only
at night. That is the time they kill up the small fish. You can not
catch the fish in the daytime because they see the nets and won’t mesh.
Consequently, it does no good to regulate the size of the mesh in a

pound net.
Q. What proportion of the fish that you buy come from the nets

fished above New Bern? ‘
A. A very small proportion now. There was a time when we got a

large proportion during the shad and herring season.

 

;
1

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 205

Q. What proportion do you get now?

A. During the spring season I get about one-twenty-fifth of the fish
that I have above New Bern. About twelve or fifteen years ago I
leased two beaches up the river, above the bridge, for a term of years.
They belonged to a colored man and I paid him $200 apiece. One year
we fished four nets, two on each beach, and kept them going. Our
profits from these two beaches, just our shares, took one-sixth of the
beach rent, and I think we had two shares from each net, and as I
recollect, our profits from these two beaches was nearly $1,000.

Q. You are a large fish dealer in New Bern.

A. Mr. Wood had some nets just above our place and I expect he did
as well. For the last five years those beaches could not be rented for a
cent. I have taken them on shares and tried to get some fishermen to
fish them, and I think those men probably got fifteen dollars rent.

Q. Please tell us something about oysters. What has been the de-
crease in oysters in these waters within the past ten years?

A. I doubt if there has been much decrease in ten years, the decrease
was before that time.

Q. Do you think there are as many oysters shipped from New Bern
as there were ten years ago?

A. Not one-fourth. Fifteen years ago, one year we worked seventy
to seventy-five shuckers. For the last two or three years we have only
handled from a dozen to twenty-five, and got 2,000 shell oysters in a
day. For the last three years I have had from three to five shuckers

and have probably as many oysters all winter as I formerly did in one
week,

Q. To what do you ascribe that great decrease?

A. About the same way about the oysters as the fish. The oysters
were scraped up by the dredgers and tongers and the dredgers would
cuss the tongers and the tongers would cuss the dredgers. The State
employed a man to inspect the oysters and see that they were properly

culled and the laws enforced, but this does not seem to have been carried
out very well.

Q. What remedy. would you suggest to that?

A. Put it in the hands of a commission. Take it entirely out of the
hands of the Legislature.

Q. Do you think we ought to have a board with powers similar to
the Board of Agriculture?

A. That, or leave it with the United States Fish Commission. As
long as you are going to have this thing in politics you will never have
these laws enforced.

Q. Do you think that setting these nets close to the bridges has any-
thing to do with the decrease of the catch of fish?

   

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

206 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. I think it has a great deal to do with it.

Q. How close do you think they ought to be allowed to got :

A. I think the law passed in the Legislature is about right. At the
confluence of the rivers about 1 1-2 miles below the bridge.

Q. Do you think that would be satisfactory ?

A. Yes.
Q. What is your observation of where the spawning ground of the

shad is in these waters? ;

A. In normal seasons, when the water is clear, they go up as far as
they can, but in years when we have the heavy freshets they spawn
lower down.

Q. Do you think that the cutting of that canal at Adams Creek
would have any effect on the amount of fish that would come into these

waters?
A. I think so. I believe there will be a good many more fish caught

in thése waters.
Q. Don’t you think that the width of that canal would have a ben-

eficial effect on the fish that come into these waters?
A. I think we would have a lot more salt water fish.

MR, ANDERSON.

Q. Are you a practical fisherman?

A. I have been fishing since 1855.

Q. What recommendations have you to make to the Committee to
increase the fish in these waters? _

A. T don’t think of but one thing that will increase the fish, and that
is to remove the pound nets. I have been fishing since ’55, and up until
the time the pound nets were started in we could not destroy the fish
caught. Since then the catch has fallen off 10 per cent. I was talking
to one of the pound net fishermen and he told me if they were allowed
to continue, in five years he would have to quit.

Q. Do you recommend the removal of pound nets from all the waters?

A. I would recommend the removal out of the whole waters of North
Carolina, if possible.

Q. But they certainly ought not to be in the rivers and sounds?

A. They ought not to be in the rivers and sounds. I would suggest

they be taken out of all these waters.

Q. How about the stake gill nets—anchor gill nets?
A. They ‘are an obstruction to the fish, too. Three-fifths of the fish

caught in the gill nets are a total loss. They catch a great many little
fish in Pamlico Sound. There is no chance to let them live after being
caught in the pound net. They are dumped in a boat’ and before the

others are taken the little ones are all dead.

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 207

Do you think you could get most of the small salt water fish out?
No; could not get them out. I have experienced that part of it.
Do you think pound nets are worse than the gill nets?

Yes; four times as bad.

What length net do you use?

Two hundred to 250 yards. My seine is about 250 yards long.

. Would you recommend that any part of the river should be kept
absolutely free from obstruction by nets?

A. I think two-thirds of the river ought to be kept free from station-
ary nets. In running seines they have always been allowed two-thirds
of the channel.

Q. Don’t you think there ought to be some portion of the river in
which no one ought to be allowed to fish?

A. Not for running nets. They are out of the water about three
times as much as they are in the water.

Q. Do you think there ought to be any season in the year in which
there ought to be no fishing whatever ?

A. I don’t think so.

Q. Don’t you think if you had that closed season that within a year
or two you could make in one month more than you had made in ten

months?
A. I don’t think so.

OrPOoOrPoreo

MR. BREWER.

I think it has been thoroughly ventilated here that the pound net is
destructive to the fish. Any stationary or stake net is destructive to the
fish. Very few people are able to have pound nets. The fish dealer as
a rule furnishes individuals with these and they work for very little and
they kill great quantities of fish. I investigated this matter in Janu-
ary, 1897. I met a gentleman from Ocracoke and he told me that they
put out their pound nets in the fall and did not take them up until the
spring, and he had seen very great quantities of young shad thrown out
upon the shore. These nets usually stand three months. I don’t see
that there could be any argument produced to continue these pound nets.
As for shad nets, I have been a shad net fisherman myself. I used to
catch from 300 to 400 shad a day. I worked some set nets and I think
I killed about four or five shad to every one I caught. It was food for
catfish and eels. It is all right for a man to set nets if he could get the
fish and put them on the market, but as it is they are destroyed and I
think the young ones ought to be protected. Take out all the stake or
stationary nets and let them use the gill nets, drag nets and seines and
everybody would have a showing at the fish.

Mr. Huff :—Take it from Johnson’s Point down the river and the eels
don’t bother the shad. Whenever a fellow gets a lot of eels in his net, it
shows he is lazy and don’t fish his net.

 

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208 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Mr. Brewer:—I believe if you could get all the fishermen together
and they would say what they think, none would be opposed to taking
out the stake or stationary nets.

Mr. Huff:—We never had any scarcity of fish until we had pound
nets. Shad accumulated with the regular shad nets.

JACKSONVILLE MEETING.

Jury 22, 1909.

Meeting called to order by Chairman and Judge Graham explains the

object of the meeting.
MR. KOONCE.

I am profoundly grateful to Judge Graham for his kindly remarks
of what I have done in the Legislature, and I desire to express my
appréciation of his regard before my people. You people expected this
Committee to be a huge monster to do some damage, but they are your
friends. They are sent out here to investigate conditions. I have
always fought the idea that we, having only an inland lake, should not
come under a general law; but we should settle the question so as to
promote the industry. I am glad the Judge has gone into this and let
all of us be free and easy about the matter. I can not introduce to you
men who have made it their life work. The people in this county do not
enter into it as a life business. I will give you men who can tell you
how much they make out of it. The mullet we get from the ocean and
the trout from New River are all the merchantable fish we get here.
We have some fish though at all seasons of the year, but it is only enough
to supply the local demand and if a man gets more than he can eat him-
self or give to his neighbors he makes compost out of them.

MR. E. 8. SMITH.

Q. How long have you been engaged in the fishing business?

A. I have never fished any myself.

Q. Are you a dealer?

A. No, I don’t buy fish. I have a piece of a beach and get some
little shares for the use of it.

Q. What fish do you catch up here?
A. Catch mullet on that beach; sometimes trout, spots and others of

that kind.
Q. Do shad ever come up this high?
A. I never see any shad... Have seen one or two in New River at

the time.
Q. Where is your beach?

GLIA MNES ANE Tei %
saad t PNR. ART 3 +: 6g

 

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 209

A. My beach is what is known as Brown’s Inlet fishery.
Q. How far from here?
A. It is about twenty-five miles. It is thirty-five by water.
Q. Has the supply of fish decreased in the last ten years in the
waters here?
I think so.
To what do you attribute it?
I have no idea.
What kind of nets do you fish in this county?
We fish gill nets, cotton and linen nets.
Do they fish any pound nets?
I don’t think they fish pound nets.
What size mesh ?
They fish from 1 1-4 to 2°inch bar, 4 inch mesh. it
. Have you any recommendations that in your opinion would im- |
prove the fishing industry? |
A. Certainly not. I don’t know anything about it.
Q. What size mesh do you think is the proper size to be fished in 1
these waters?
A. I don’t know. We have all kinds of fish and the fishermen use
all sizes of nets.
Mr. Koonce:—They are allowed to fish for menhaden with an inch
bar, 2 inch mesh. i
ii
|

OPOrPOoPOPOPr

Q. Have you a law here regulating the size?
A. Yes, for shad and menhaden.
Q. Where do they catch these menhaden or fatbacks? ih
A. Catch them in the ocean. il}
Q. Where are they shipped to? I
A. Some are shipped to a factory on the Cape Fear and some to Ahh
Beaufort.
Q. Do you have any in this county?
A. No. 1)
Q. Are any of the Onslow County men fishing for these or do any ‘a
men from other counties come down here to fish?
A. They come off shore. The Onslow County men fish very little
for menhaden.
Q. I understand you to say that others are fishing for the fatback?
A. Men from Carteret, New Hanover come up, but they fish on the i
outside. .
Q. Do you catch any of the white shad? \
A. I don’t think so; very few. i
Q. Do you catch any herring in these waters? f
A. Some. |

14

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Pn F 7 oe ET SAEED iti A a Tk TON Ee

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

210 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

‘ Q. Are there more people in the county now engaged in fishing
than there were ten years ago?

A. I don’t know. There are a good many people who attempt to
turn a few dollars in fishing when they get their little crops done and
a good many people catch a good many fish that are not regular fisher-
men.

Q. To what extent do you think the supply of fish has decreased in
these waters?

. I don’t know.

. Have you any interest in the oyster business?

. I have some oyster beds.

. Has the supply of oysters increased or decreased ?
. They have decreased very much.

. To what do you ascribe that decrease?

A. Several years ago a good many oysters were planted and I take
it they were not planted properly and the mussels took charge of the
beds and killed them out. A good many people lost money and others
lost their labor, and since that time there has not been many oysters
planted.

Q. Are there any natural beds in these waters?

A. Some down near the inlet. There used to be a great many nat-
ural beds, but they have been pretty nearly broken up.

Q. How were they destroyed?

A. They were destroyed by clam tongs digging them up and in
various other ways.

Q. There were no natural causes; they were destroyed by the acts of
men?

A. I think so.

Q. Are there any natural beds now that produce oysters that are
put on the market?

Yes; some few.

Where are they located?

Down near the mouth of the river, say four or five miles.

Do they need any protection?

Nothing there to ‘protect now.

You mean there are no oysters on the beds now?

Now they are mighty small.

Your supply of oysters comes almost entirely from private beds?
Pretty nearly.

About how many men in the county have planted oysters—own-

ing beds from which they derive their oysters?
A. I don’t know.

Orporopr

OPOrPOPOPOP

TAME ENP Bs LEG IA ARTLINE TO BET LS REC Nhe SAE RAE RIOT PEAT TEE IE ET

 

rg

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 211

Q. Are there any dredges used for hoisting in this county?

A. No.

Q. Have there ever been any ?

A. No. I have seen one or two little dredges two or three feet long
being used.

Q. Are there any oysters shipped out of this county for seed oysters
to plant in other counties?

A. I think not.

Q. Do you know of any being shipped to Maryland and Virginia
for this purpose?

A. I do not know.

Q. What do you think would be best to increase the supply of oysters
in this county ?

A. We have been talking about that for-a long time down in my sec-
tion and one man will arrive at one conclusion and another at another,
and no one seems to know.

Q. What is your opinion about it?

A. I don’t know that I have one worth giving. I don’t know enough
about oysters.

Q. Is there any recommendation that you could make to us in re-
gard to this matter?

A: No, I have no suggestion to offer.

Q. Are there planted beds here? Are the oysters planted here on
what was formerly oyster bottom, but which has been destroyed, or
have they been planted where oysters never were before?

A. There are very few natural oyster beds taken up. Some few men
might have taken up small oyster rock. In getting ten or fifteen
acres he might have gotten a small part of an oyster bottom. The
Shellfish Commission tried to look after that and did not allow a fellow
to enter an oyster rock.

Q. What is your opinion in regard to entering natural rocks on
which the oysters have been destroyed? Do you think it should be per-
mitted ?

A. I don’t.

Q. Do you think an oyster bed should always be regarded as such?

A. If you had some proper legislation I think a good many of them
might rebuild.

Q. What proper legislation would you suggest ?

A. I don’t know. Some say if the oysters were culled up to a certain
size and the small ones left, it would build up the rock. Some say if
you would keep off at certain seasons of the year they would build up.

Q. Have you any idea of the value of the fish that are shipped out
of this county?

A. Not the slightest.

 

 
    

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

212 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

MR. WALLACE LEWIS.

Q. What is your business?

A. Fishing, farming a little, but mostly fishing.

Q. Do you think the supply of fish has increased or decreased in
the past ten years?

A. I think that the supply of fish has decreased.

Q. What do you think is the cause of that decrease ?

A. I could not answer that without so many people fishing and nav-
igation runs them off.

Q. Is the mouth of your inlet closed up now?

A. No, we have no inlet, only what was cut through by a dredge
boat. We have more salt water than used to come here. Winter fish
put up mostly in fresh water. The mullets are very much less.

How is it with your white shad?

Mighty few comes in this river.

How is it with the trout?

Some winters a mighty few trout and some winters hardly any.
What is the principal fish you catch in these waters?

Mostly mullets.

What sort of nets do you use in this county?

They use gill nets mostly, what we call drop nets.

What is the length of these nets?

A. From a hundred to some 150 yards, but most of them will not
average over 125.

Q. Do they have any over 200 yards in length?

A. Not often do you ever hear of one 200 yards in this river.

Q. How is it down at the mouth of the river?

A. Down at the mouth of the river you can not have them as long
on account of the. tide. No haul seines or anything of that kind is
used in the river.

Q. Are there any people in your county interested in the menhaden
or fatback fishing?

A. No. They can not get out of the inlet to catch the menhaden.

Q. Are there any boats from other counties engaged in that business?

A. No; never see anybody but the shad company that fishes from the
Cape Fear River.

Q. How many boats do they use in that business?

A. Sometimes two steamers and sometimes three.

Q. What season of the year do they fish?

A. Mostly in the fall season. Once in a while you see them passing
along in the spring.

Q. In what part of the county: do they fish ?

A. Right at the mouth of the river.

OPOoPrPOoOPoPrO

a®

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 213

Q. Where do the people in your section ship their fish to?

A. The fishermen ship mighty few of the fish they catch. They sell
them to hucksters about.

Q. Do boats go out from Wilmington, New Bern, and Morehead
City ?

A. None from Wilmington; some from Morehead City.

Q. You have been in the business for quite a while. What do you
think would be a fair estimate of the value of the fish shipped out of
this county in the past year?

A. I could not answer that question.

Q. They are all engaged in farming too, are they not?

A. As near as I could come to the truth I would say three-fifths of
the fishermen do not make enough to pay for their tackle.

Q. How many men are there in the county that follow fishing ex-
clusively for a living?

A. Not all of them.

Q. What do you think is the cause of the falling off of the fish?

A. I don’t know. Used to when there were not many fishermen it
was like hunting, but now that so many fish are not caught and so
many to catch. I have seen the time when I could get a lot of fish for
which there was no market.

Q. Do they pay any license for fishing in this county ?

A. No, I don’t get out any particular license? Our lands are valued
pretty high on aecount of water privileges.

Q. There is a tax upon the land and not upon the fishing ?

A. I have not known any one taxed but an oysterman.

Q. What size mesh do you use in your seines?

A. They use from 1 1-4 inch to 2 inch bar. They use the small bar
in catching mullets and the large bar in the spring for roe mullets. We
do catch herring here in the river.

Q. That is the only way that the fish can come into New River?

A. Yes, and the inlet is so small that anything will turn them out.
So many are fishing on the outside they keep them out.

Q. Do you think that if the inlet was dredged out and kept open
that the supply of fish would inerease?

A. The inlet is open enough but fishermen from other places come
in and fish on their side and keep the fish out.

Q. Do they set any nets on the outside of that inlet?

A. I have heard of them setting there, but I have never seen any of
them.

Q. Do they use pound nets or dutch nets out there?

A. They use what they call deep sea nets. Sometimes on smooth

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

ELLA LOS: TIRES TELLERS OL LETTE ES TEGO NET BL LEE

214 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

nights I have heard of them setting their nets along the beach to catch
trout.

Q. How far out do they set these nets?

A. Down the bank the length of the net.

Q. How close do they fish to the inlet?

A. They fish all in the mouth, anywhere the water will float the
boats. :

Q. Is there any law against setting nets in the inlet or mouth of the
river ?

A. They tell me there is a law prohibiting the hauling of seines
within a quarter of a mile of the inlet.

Q. Do they pay any attention to that law?

A. No; they don’t regard it.

Q. Have you ever heard of any one being indicted for fishing ?

A. I had a brother indicted for getting some mullets with a drop
net.

Q. How long ago has that been?

A. A few years back.

Q. Was he convicted?

A. No.

Q. Are you engaged in the oyster business?

A. I have a couple of oyster gardens.

Q. How large are they?

A. One twelve acre and the other fifteen. That is what I pay tax
on, but they are not worth the taxes.

Q. What taxes do you have to pay on these?

A. I don’t remember what the tax is now.

Q. How long since you planted these oyster gardens?

A. I planted one of them about four years ago.

Q. How has the supply of oysters been in that garden?

A. It has been sorry for me. It was a good ground to raise them

on but they have been stolen out so. I put 14,000 bushels and didn’t
get but about a bushel.

Q. Who are they—visitors from another county or your friends?

A. They keep it cleaned out. I might say some of my friends and
neighbors. I have caught two or three parties in there, but some didn’t
go in intentionally.

Q. How many people are there in the county that have these oyster
gardens?

A. Not a great many. I don’t think there are many people inter-
ested in oyster gardens, only from Sneed’s Ferry down. There are not
but a couple of men that I know of that get anything out of them.

aa a Leas

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 215

Q. Why is it they are run down? Is it because they can not raise
oysters on the bottom or because somebody carries them off ?
A. The salt water gets in and they grow into cooners.

Q. Do you plant oysters or shells?
A. I planted seed oysters. The garden is running down owing to

the salt water and sand. They don’t do well in sandy bottoms.
Q. Since that salt water, has it improved conditions farther up the

stream ?
A. I don’t think they raise any oysters higher up than Sneed’s

Ferry.
Q. Has anybody tried it? Is it too fresh up above and too salt

below ?

A. The water is too fresh. The inlet is so small and the river is
large. The water gets fresh and the oysters get fat and then there will
be an inrush of salt water which kills them.

Q. How wide is the inlet?

A. Not very wide. The channel is nothing more than a street going
out, possibly a hundred yards after the canal gets through. The canal
is perhaps fifty or sixty yards wide.

Q. How deep is the water on that bar?
A. I don’t suppose now they can get over four and a half or five feet

on the average. Maybe one week we can get five or six feet and a week

after that only four and a half or five.

Q. How high does the tide rise with you?
A. The ebb and flow of the tide where I live is not more than four

to six inches. The lake or river is so large and the inlet is so small
that unless it is springtide the rise is very little.

Q. What do you get for oysters here? What do they sell for?

A. About seventy-five cents or $1 for No. 1 or shell oysters.

Q. What did they used to sell for?
A. T have heard that is what they brought. Very few have any or

sell any.
Q. What do you think would be best to do to increase the oyster in-

dustry in the county?

A. T don’t know of but one thing to do and that would be an injury
to this whole class of people, and that would be to stop catching them.

Q. How long?

A. It would take a long time.

Q. Have you a Shell Fish Commissioner or deputy in this county ?

A. We have what we call a Shell Fish Commissioner appointed by
the State, who makes grants to people where there are no natural oyster
beds.

Q. Who is it?

A. Mr. Pollard and Mr. Jarman.

 

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216 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

MR. HORACE GRANT.

Q. How long have you been interested in fishing?

A. All my life; that is, outside: fishing. Never use inside net or
seine. I fish three months in the fall—from the 15th or 20th of August
to the 15th of November.

Q. What kind of a net?

A. We call it a seine—1 1-8 inch net. We merely haul the fish to
the shore—anything from 1 1-4 inch fish to as big as we can get. *

Q. How far out from the shore do you fish?

A. At times we go 100 yards.

Q. You just fish out from the shore and back?

A. Just fish from the shore and back; stationary, fishing the fish
from the beach.

Q. Do the steamers that come up here from the menhaden factories
bother you with your fishing?

A, I think not. If they have, we don’t realize it.

Q. What kind of fish do you catch here?

A. Mullets. If we catch any bottom fish we utilize them as best we
can.

Q. Are there bluefish or mackerel in these waters?

A. Seldom ever catch a mackerel. Catch some bluefish. Try not
to catch them. :

Q. Is there any market for bluefish?

A. There is some market here, but we are so far from the railroad
that it does not commence until the weather gets cool. We do not
catch bluefish because they eat our seines up.

Q. Do you ever catch any white shad?

A. I sometimes hear of a white shad being caught in the river, but
never knew of one being caught.

Q. Where are the ships from that do the menhaden or fatback fish-
ing?

A. We think they are from the Cape Fear.

Q. How far off the shore do they fish there?

A. No closer than 200 yards. From that as far off as they find fish.

Q. Do they come as close as 200 yards—these fishermen from Cape
Fear?

Yes; they come as close as forty yards.

Do you know anything of the dimensions of the net?
I don’t know.

How deep is the water?

Twenty or twenty-five feet.

How close do they come to the inlet?

OPOPOP

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 217

A. I think I have seen them up pretty close to the inlets—within
400 yards anyhow.

Q. Do you think that they fish frequently enough to do any damage
to the fish in the water?

A. I don’t think they do. I don’t think catching the menhaden fish
damages us at all.

Q. Have you even seen any evidence that they catch anything but
the menhaden?

A. I could not tell you what they do catch. Whatever they catch
they catch it and carry it away. They never stop here.

Q. Have you ever heard of any complaint?

A. I have heard a great deal of complaint towards Beaufort. I
hear there is a fine, but they catch the fish and pay the fine. One man
of the crowd indicts the crew and they pay the fine out of the catch
and make a profitable investment.

Q. In what part of the water do the Carteret County men fish?

A. I never see the Carteret County men up here.

Q. Is there any fishing about Swansboro?

A. There are some fishermen there who fish the drop nets and some
outside nets all along the beach from Cape Lookout to the river,

Q. What sort of fish do they principally catch there?

A. Mullets in the outside seine; the inside catch bluefish or anything
else that is salable.

Q. Where do they market their fish?

A. Power boat or gasoline boat. A- good many ship from here.

Q. Can you give any estimate of the value of fish shipped from
Onslow County this year?

A. I have not had any experience with the fresh fish business. My
experience has been with salt fish. Some years the business is better
than others.

Q. You are also interested in oysters?

A. I have some oyster bottom.

Q. How much oyster bottom have you?

A. Twenty-six acres, all told.

Q. Does that produce regularly?

A. It would if properly cultivated, but there is a good deal of dissatis-
faction about bedding oysters.

Q. Have you any special law covering the cultivation of the beds?
Are you required to plant so many bushels per acre? .

A. I don’t think so. I have no account of it.

Q. Do those who practice oyster gardening take any pains to culti-
vate them?

A. There is no method whereby you can do it. You can only spread

 

 

 

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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218 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

them out on the bottom and if they do well it is good; if they do bad,
they are gone. The oyster industry is not very encouraging here now.

Q. Has it decreased very much within the last five or six years?

A. Yes, they seem to have decreased.

Q. What do you think is the cause of that?

A. I could not tell unless it was the amount of salt water coming in
New River.

Q. Has the oyster cultivation increased farther up the river?

A. There is nothing for it to increase on farther up the river; no
rocks after you pass the ferry. An oyster won’t catch on anything
unless it has some solid in the substance. If it gets on the sand or mud,

it is down and out.
Q. Suppose you spread shells on that bottom, what would be the

effect?

A. You would get a good crop of oysters and usually a very good one
of mussels.

Q. You don’t get the mussels in the salter waters, do you?

A. Yes, a good many.

Q. Enough to interfere with the oyster culture?

A. Sometimes it does considerable, and then again it will disappear
and be gone for years. I recollect on one occasion my brother bedding
some oysters and they stood for several years without doing anything,
and finally the mussels grew plumb out of the water and then after a
few years they disappeared, and there was finally a very good crop of

oysters there.
Q. Have you any recommendations to make to the Committee

whereby the fish and oyster industry of this county might be improved ?
A. I don’t know that I have.

Q. Would you like to be let alone?
A. I suppose it would be as well as you could do for us.
Q. Is there any general opinion as to any steps that might be taken

to improve the fishing industry ?
A. No, there are a good many people who advance the idea that if we

would use a-smaller mesh net it would be more profitable.

Q. In the fishing here, are there any small size fish destroyed in taking
up the nets?

A. We don’t destroy anything that is salable, but a good many little

fish get caught.
Q. They get caught in the nets and in handling the large fish they

are killed?
A. We don’t kill any fish. What we take up are sold, but it is market-

ing a fish when he is half grown.

 

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 219

Q. Do you have any law limiting the size of fish that may be sold
or bought ? :

A. Not that I am aware of.

Q. Do you think it would do any good to limit the size of fish that
could be sold?

A. I don’t know about that. Some people hereabouts are impressed
with that idea that favor a regulation of the size of the mesh of the
net.

Q. These nets outside in fishing for menhaden, don’t they necessarily
catch other fish?

A. I think not. I don’t think any other fish are associated with the
menhaden.

Q. In eatching fish for fertilizer—any other kind of fish would be as
valuable to them ?

A. I guess so.

Q. Do they think the depletion of the oyster is due to the way they
have been caught?

A. The oysters on the rocks I think are depleted by the letting in of
the salt water, which causes clams to grow and clamming becomes more
profitable than oystering.

Q. Does your oysterman take all away and put nothing back?

A. That’s the idea.

Q. Don’t you think it is due to that that the oyster beds are de-
pleted ?

A. I don’t know. Of course it injures it some,

Q. When do they commence to catch the oyster?

A. I think they begin oystering in October and oyster until April
or May. P

Q. Do you think the time in which they are fished ought to be lim-
ited to give them an opportunity to propagate?

I should think the limit is sufficient from April to October.

Are there not rockfish in this river?

Very few.

They are not caught enough to make that industry of any value?
No.

How are they caught?

They are occasionally caught in gill nets.

Any sturgeon in these waters?

No.

You have used the term “drop net.” What do you mean?

A drop net is one that each man fishes himself off his boat. They
move from place to place.

Q. Do you think that if there were any regulation in respect to keep-

POPOPOPOPOP

 

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220 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

ing open a certain part of the waters that it would permit more fish to
come up the river? :

A. A good many people believe that. A law was passed a few years
ago regarding that, but it has never been obeyed.

Q. It has not been obeyed sufficiently to demonstrate whether it has
been of any value?

A. It has not.

Q. What is your opinion?

A. I don’t know. I am not acquainted with the river fishing. I

simply fish on the outside.
Q. Are there any narrow points of the river that are fished entirely

across so as to prevent the fish from going up?

A. I should think there was. It is very narrow down next to the
inlet. For a mile or mile and a half it is not over 100 yards across.

Q. Don’t you think it would be an advantage if a law was passed
proltibiting them from fishing more than one-third on each side of the
river?

A. I don’t know. I don’t think you could ever execute a law like
that. If they had that I really think it would be better for the river

fishing. It would take a regular battery to keep them out.
Q. If three or four men were convicted and punished, wouldn’t it

have some effect?
A. I think it would have some effect.
Q. Don’t you think if they thought it was a good and reasonable law,

the people would be behind it?
A. I don’t know how to answer, but it looks like it would.

Q. Public sentiment would enforce almost any law?
A. Public sentiment has a good deal to do with the enforcement of

the law. a
Q. You said that you thought that the catch of fish would be in-
creased by making the nets smaller. You mean making them larger?
A. Making the nets larger. I heard you ask them here what is the
cause of the decrease of the catch of fish. The decrease is caused by the

-inerease of fishermen. Ten nets now to one ten years ago.
Q. And with that large increase of fishermen the amount of fish is

decreased ?

A. Tt has decreased to the man, but not to the amount. When you
get them ‘all together you will find a bigger pile of fish while no one
man catches a great deal of them. There are more men after them.

Q. There are a great many more people catching fish ?

A. Yes: :
Q. Are there better appliances for catching fish now?

A. I think they use better nets. I know they use deeper nets.

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 221

Q. Are there any pound nets in this county?
A. Not that I know of. There was a pound or two on the river here,
but I have not heard anything of it lately.

EX-SHERIFF SAUNDERS.

Q. Has there been any increase or decrease in fish in this county for
the past five or six years?

A. There has not been any decrease.

Q. What kind of fish are mostly fished in your section?

A. Mullets.

Q. You don’t think there has been any decrease?

A. I think the general output of the catch of fish is as large as ever.
Every year the catch is not the same. Some years the catch is smaller
than other years. In the fall, down with us, ours is entirely salt water
fishing. During the fall season we have established fisheries. Those
fisheries begin both inside and outside some time between the 10th and
20th of August, and they continue to fish for mullets until somewhere
about the 1st of November, between the 1st and 20th of November. We
have quantities of fishermen that fish with drop nets outside these sta-
tionary fisheries during the fall and winter. Then through the winter
season we have quite a little haul seines. They catch up those rivers
and creeks, Whiteoak River and Queen’s Creek, and occasionally along
the sound between those two places and beyond, or west of Queen’s
Creek they catch quite a number of small mullets; very small mullets
with the haul seines through the winter and in the spring season they
fish for the speckled trout that are so very valuable.

Q. Where are these fish caught in your waters marketed ?

A. They are marketed at Morehead. The Morehead hucksters run
boats up and begin as soon as the fisheries open and until the trout
season closes in the spring about the 1st of May.

Q. Do you catch any white shad or herring in these waters?

A. Oceasionally through the spring we catch some white shad and
some herring. They catch a good many herring with the small seines
fishing for trout.

Q. Formerly a great many fish were caught in the Cape Fear and
in Pamlico and Albemarle sounds. Can you tell us why the white shad
do not come in these waters?

A. Can not tell you. We catch through the spring occasionally some
shad with our trout seines down in the salt water.

Mr. Koonce:—The river is too sluggish. I have heard Mr. Lewis
say, who lives near the inlet, that the river is so sluggish that the tide
does not rise over six or eight inches. The shad seeks waters that run

swift.

 

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222 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Mr. Saunders :—It is swift where we live.

Q. Do you think that if one-third of the river was left open and
nobody could fish in that one-third, that it would tend to increase the
fish in that river?

A. I could not say anything about New River; I can speak for the
two inlets around us. We have a law protecting Dare and Brown’s
inlets already. No one is permitted from the first day-of September
until the first day of April to fish within a mile of the eastern or
western beach of Dare or Brown inlets or within a quarter of a mile on
either side of these two inlets and the fishermen down there seem to be
very well satisfied with that law; it keeps the inlets open and when the
fish get within a quarter of a mile of the inlet they scatter and get up
into the marshes and it gives the small fishermen with their small nets
a better opportunity of catching fish.

Q. Can you give us any estimate of the value of the fish shipped
from Onslow County in one year?

A. I could not approximate it. Quite a quantity of fish are shipped
from Onslow.

What can you tell us about oysters?

We only have coons fit for canning.

Nobody is engaged in oystering there?

None at all caught around through last season.

Do any of the boats come in there from further up to get coon
oysters to plant in their waters?

A. No, I don’t think any of them are ever taken out for planting
purposes.

Q. Any oyster gardens in that part of the county?

A. A few in Queen’s Creek and on one of the tributaries to Queen’s
Oreek.

Q. How have the owners of these gardens succeeded with them ?

A. The oysters are exceedingly fine in some of their gardens. The
creek being small the gardens are very small. The oysters are of a
very fine flavor and grow to a large size.

Q. Do they produce enough for shipment, or are they all consumed?

A. They don’t ship them. The local trade around there about takes
what they have.

Q. Do they have any trouble with mussels in these oyster beds?

A. If they are troubled with mussels in Queen’s Creek I am not
aware of it, or Whiteoak River either.

Q. Can you make any suggestion to us as to what laws could ‘be
passed to benefit the fish and oyster industries in this county?

A. I could not. I do not know of any law that would benefit our

coons.

OFPOPSO

a i CAE AREA, SRI MLS NS HE Ta LR LIL APRS PMT OO

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 223

Q. As to the fish?

A. I don’t think there is anything that could be done to promote the
fishing industry around our waters. The people seem to be very well
satisfied with the present conditions of fishing around here.

Q. Are there any pound nets used in your section of the county ?
A. None whatever.

Q. What are the nets most generally used?

A. We have the drag seines, which are usually about 1 1-8 to 1 1-4
inch bar; then they have gill nets, twine or cotton gill, which run out
for fish of any mesh. It depends upon the size of the fish they are
after. A few are 1 1-4 inch mesh, but most are 1 3-8 inch mesh, accord-
ing to the sizes of the mullets in the fall.

Q. Do you think it would be advisable to pass a law limiting the size
of the fish that can be marketed ?

A. I would not make any suggestion at all about the size of seine or
nets that should be used or the size of fish that should be caught, but
my idea is if there is any legislation on that, the shipper of fish should
not be permitted to be caught with any fish less than a certain size in
his possession. I don’t know that it would promote the fishing industry,
but I think if there is any legislation on that point it should be directed
toward him.

Q. The mullet is a fish of very rapid growth?

A. I think so.

Q. Don’t you think it would be a good thing to prevent them from
catching the small fish when they would grow to double that length in
a few months?

A. It seems to me it is a pretty hard matter to catch the fish up so
as to make them scaree, the mullets especially. It rather strikes me
that if any fish are to be protected it is the roe mullet.

Q. What is the time of spawning season for mullet?

A. I think it is along in November.

Q. Do you think it would be a good idea to make the time in which
these mullets can be caught shorter than it is now?

A. I could not say. As Mr. Grant has just stated, while there are as
many fish, apparently, as there ever was, no one man catches as many
as they used to.

Q. Do you think that the individual fisherman does not make as
much as he formerly did because there are so many more?

A. That’s it. So many more that he is pushed out to a very great
extent.

Q. Is there any sturgeon fishing on your shores?
A. No.

Q. At the time that you were taking oysters from the natural beds

 

 

 
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224 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

in your vicinity, was there any improvement in the quality of the oysters
after the thinning out of the beds?

A. I don’t know. It has not been running long enough to tell.
This was just last winter a year ago. The oysters since that time have
grown very little. Whether he gets any larger or not I am unable to
say.

0. Can you tell us whether there are any white shad running into
Whiteoak River and Hunter’s Creek?

A. They catch some up there, but no great quantity.

Q. Have you any evidence that they spawn there?

A. Yes.

Q. Are there any fisheries up these rivers?

A. Not that I know of. There are no fisheries. They only catch

with a little net. Some of them have a little net in which he catches a
few fish. I have heard that when they get up where the streams are
narrow they work with a little dip net.

CAPTAIN JOHN MOORE,

. Are you a practical fisherman ?

Yes.

How long have you been engaged in the business?
About twenty years.

What part of the county are you from.

Twenty-three miles from here.

Ts it south of the inlet?

Just on the south side of the inlet.

What kind of fishing do you do?

Mullet mostly; trout in the winter time.

Do you fish outside?

Fish inside. °
Have you any recommendations to make to the Committee whereby

re)

OPOPOoOPOPOPOP

A. No, I think they will be scarce enough after a while if they use
the size nets they are now using.

Q. What size nets have they been using?

A. One and one-quarter and 1 1-8 inch.

Q. What size should they use?

A. I don’t think they ought to be allowed to use smaller than 1 3-8

inch mesh.

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 225

A. I think it would be beneficial. The small class of mullets downs
the prices of the large class.

Q. What do you think of a law that would prohibit the fisherman or
the huckster from having in his possession a mullet of less than ten
inches ¢

A. I don’t think that law would do, unless you prohibit their using
the smaller sized mesh nets.

Q. Wouldn’t it be to his interest to change his net if he could not
sell it?

A. Yes, if they would not buy them.

Q. Suppose they enforce the law and prevent him from selling it?

A. That would be beneficial if there were more indictments done,
but they leave that off. Last winter I was fishing up here with a 1 3-8
inch mesh and the man next to me used a 1 1-4 inch mesh, and he
would get as much for his fish as I got for mine, and mine were larger.
You could get as much in proportion for 1 1-8 inch mullet as for 1 3-8
inch.

Q. They are sold by the pound?

A. They are sold for so much apiece.

Q. The large sized mullets are not as high in proportion as the
small ones.

A. No.

Q. Why is that?

A. I could not say. We get $1.60 for 1 3-8 mullets and most of
them are 1 6-8, and they are all taken in for $1.60. Where the 1 1-8
mullet is worth $1.60 the 1 6-8 ought to be worth three cents apiece.

Q. You think that what Onslow County needs is a law changing the
size of net and enforcing that law ?

A. Anything smaller than 1 3-8 inch ought not to be allowed to fish
in Onslow County. That will increase the fish. I see a change every
year—less fish. Let the 1 1-4 and 1 1-8 inch fish go only another
season and they will be 1 1-2 to 1 5-8 size. They grow very fast. They
are just scunning them up by the hundreds, as you might say. A 1 1-4
to 1 1-8 inch mullet is not fit to eat.

Q. Where are the fish marketed that you catch?

A. Sold right here to the hucksters and in the fall a good many come
from down east and ship them from here.

Q. Do you think it would do any good to pass a law that one-third of
the river should be kept open all the time?

A. I don’t. Give every man his sway.

Q. You think they ought to be allowed to fish all the way across?

 

 

A. They ought to be allowed to catch them wherever they can catch

meet the approval of the fishermen of the county. si them.

15

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let i i i al a a - _

 

 

the fishing industry could be improved?
A. I don’t see where it can.
Q. You think that the mullets are plentiful enough?
Q. Do you think a law of that kind passed for this county would

  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

226 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. You are engaged also in the oyster business ?
A. I have dealt in them some. Have a clam garden now, but no
oyster garden.
How much land is in your clam garden?
Only one-half acre.
Do you think the clams flourish there very well?
Yes, they increase there.
How long have you been cultivating the clam garden?
I have had it ever since 1904.
Do you plant shells there every year?
No; just put the clams in the water.
On that one-half acre how many clams do you catch?
I have no idea. I buy clams and put in there some seasons and
some seasons I don’t.
Q. About how many bushels do you ship a year?
A. I put in about 200 bushels there one year and I have shipped
only about 190 bushels out of it.
Are ther many of your neighbors interested in the clam business?
This is t] e only clam garden on the river.
How marty of them have an oyster garden?
I could not tell you.
Are there any oysters shipped from that section ?
Not a gre many. Oysters are falling behind of what they have

POPOPOPOPOS

POPOPSO

been.

Q. What do y»« think is the cause of that?

A. Our best oy-ters are what are called the shell oysters. I think
the rocks have bn muddied up and the oysters sunk by the large
tongs. The mud «and sand have drifted over the rocks and killed the
oysters.

Q. Are there any natural oyster beds besides these oysters that you
speak of?

A. Plenty.

Q. Are there any oysters on these?

A. Yes.

Q. How many oyster. are shipped from there?

A. I could not say how many. Down below there are a great many
natural beds and they us» :hem for plants to put in the gardens. The
more they take off the better the oysters get.

Q. Does anybody plant any shells down there?

A. They usually plant ovsters instead of shells.

Q. How do you go about planting clams?

A. I buy them and spread them out.

Q. Do you put small clams and permit them to grow?

 

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 227

A. Yes; buy all sizes, small and large.
Q. In taking them up, do you select the size you wish and put the

small ones back to grow?
A. No; I take them all up just as we cansget them. Small ones are

worth more than large ones.
Q. What do you gain by your planting, that you can have the clams

when you want them ?
A. Yes; you have the clams when you want them, for in the winter

and fall season we can buy them for 60 cents and we can get $1.25 and

sometimes $2.50 a sack for them later on.
Do you raise what is called the little neck clams?

Little neck.

What do you get for a bushel of oysters?
Generally get about a dollar for good marketable oysters.

That is, a dollar delivered?
Delivered right to the cart. They haul them to Wilmington.

-You go in more for clams than ‘you do for oysters?
Yes, and ship them north.

POPOPOPO

SENATOR BURTON.

Mr. Chairman and Gentlemen of the Committee, Especially Mr.
Chairman:—I appreciate the kind things you have said about me. I
have read somewhere in Holy Writ that certain good people were upon
accord in one place. I think this fish proposition gave the Legislature
more trouble than any other proposition, except the wet and dry con-
test, that came up in the session of 1907. The only thing I know about
fishing is getting a bucket of bait and a chew of tobacco and sitting down
on the side of the river. But the people of this county, as far as I have
been able to learn, feel that they should not be brought within the opera-
tion of the fish law that will make them subject to a tax. The people on
this river are poor people; they are not fishermen alone, but farmers.
They fish until housing time. Then when they get through housing
their crops they fish right on until spring. The fishing is not lucrative.
From a financial standpoint it does not pay. They have to live from
hand to mouth, and they feel that if a tax is imposed on them that the
wolf will come to the door. There are no regular fishermen on this river.
The people up and down New River, not being regular fishermen, feel
that if they had to pay a tax on their nets they would have to quit the
business. For that reason they have asked me to beg you gentlemen to
look at this side of their cause and if you possibly can to give the rem-
edy suggested by some of the gentlemen here as to fixing the size of the
mesh, and also save them from taxation. That is what they want. We
are peculiarly situated. This river just affects Onslow Oounty, and

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228 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

there are no counties above Onslow to grumble about the fish being
headed off. The oyster business I am unable to say anything about. I
have heard several of these gentlemen say that oyster planting down
below the mouth of the river has been much of a failure. The storms
we have had for several years seem to sweep the sand over the planted
oysters. I don’t suppose it has any effect on the rocks, but it sweeps
the ‘sand on the planted oysters which has made them unremunerative.
I don’t think any of the down-river fishing prevents the circulation of
shad up the river. Some years we have a good many shad and other
years little at all. It is a cause of nature about which I am unable to
say anything.

Q. Do you think it would increase the number of shad if we could
get the United States government to deposit fry in these waters?

A. We have done that several times, myself and others, and got the
government to plant in here two or three times within the last ten years,

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 229

thousands of bushels of oysters in what is called Stone’s Bay; pretty
soon there came a freshet and a storm which destroyed what they had
done. Unless some natural conditions can come about by which the
increase of salt water now coming in is stopped, the oyster gardens will
have to move farther up the river. If the grounds are increased by
reason of that it might give more chance for planting.

Q. Is the United States government now dredging down there?

A. They have been doing some dredging between New River and
White Oak River.

Q. Is that in Bogue Sound?

A. It is on Brown’s Sound, between our river and Bogue Inlet. The
salt water supply seems to have been increased since they began that

work of dredging.
MR. B. J. POLLARD,

Oyster Commissioner of Onslow County.

 

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but I can not say that the shad supply is any greater than it was before.
Whether the fry was dead when brought, I am unable to say, but I don’t |
think it increased the shad supply at all. |

 

Q. How many years experience have you had with the shell fish?
A. Since 1890.

 

 

 

 

 

Q. Do you know from which one of the hatcheries that fry was Q. Have you had experience as a practical oysterman on the natural
brought ? rocks ¢
A. No. A. Yes. Hi
aan i i How many years experience? {]
Q. Do you think it would meet the approbation of your county if all 1 Q. : Be Nias? Fao etn ice year |
the laws were repealed and you were left free to fish when vat aa A. Thave been assisting in a small way ever since T was = years old. |
you wanted to? : Q. Do you fish on the natural rocks in this neighborhood? i
: A. The people: ean not agree. If you want t i ) A. Yes.
| do not think ss taht git Gn Ati Sy sth Moe i lo Q. Have you oystered anywhere except around here? ]
| C st : i 73 H i A. Nowhere except New River.
| aor. bonis Aylin forage tt aeegbe ge . Q. What was the condition of the natural rocks when you first began
n @
i i a oystering on them ? ce ;
ete ee ee ee A. The foundation was in good condition; the oysters were scarce in j

take to suggest anything. |

Q. Do you think that if the State would have a more effective patrol j
so as to protect the people after they plant their gardens, that more
people in the county could be induced to go into the business of planting .
oysters ?

A. I am under the impression that all the oyster ground that would |
pay is practically taken up.

Q. That is, all the ground that has any oyster rock on it?

A. All the ground that is profitable for paying oysters.

Q. Do you know whether any of those who have planted oysters have
done so on ground that did not apparently have any rock on it?

A. Several years ago an oyster company was formed which came two
miles up the river from where the oyster bed bottoms were and planted
quite a lot of oysters ‘and spent quite a lot of money and bedded several

some parts, but not as scarce as they are now.
Q. Have you any idea what produced that scarceness?
A. I think they were overworked.
Q. They had been overworked when you began as a boy? |

A. I have thought so for quite awhile. |
Q. Do you think that anything could be done to improve the con- j

dition of the beds?
% A. IT think all the rocks that produce good merchantable oysters
should have the small oysters left on them and take the planting spat

from the main rock.

Q. Why do you make that distinction?
A. The place where they produce the seed oysters 1s so overcrowded

that they do not get large enough to market.
Q. What you call the main rock never produces marketable oysters?

——— — =) hea f PE

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230 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. Sometimes. They were larger last fall than in quite a while, due
to storm freshets.

Q. As a matter of practicable regulation of the fisheries could that
be done? Can you compel or require the enforcement of a law as to the
catch of oysters from what you call the seed rock?

A. I believe it could be done. Our people usually seem to be willing
to obey the law.

Q. Do you think they would be willing to submit to that supervision ?

A. Yes; in our territory they fish all the year, but certain territory
is prohibited.

Q. Why don’t the oyster gardens succeed ?

A. My experience is there is not one acre in ten where an oyster will
live; but that the sand will kill it.

Q. Are these planted beds on places which were originally natural
rock?

A. No.

Q. Are any of them on such places?
A. No; once in a while a small place will be broken up.
Q. Suppose you were to take these areas which were originally nat-

ural rock and to lease them out as gardens, could oysters be profitably
raised ?

A. I don’t think that would do, because it is deep water where they
are; from four to ten feet.

Q. You don’t think that would be profitable on those?

A. I hardly think so. It is only about two and a half miles of the.
river that you produce the oysters.

Q. Do you know they are profitably raising oysters in water seventy
feet deep?

A. It might obstruct navigation here.

Q. Could anything be done in this neighborhood to induce the men
to take up oyster culture and to make it a success?

A. I am unable to give any definite answer.

Q. How many acres in this county are devoted to the cultivation of
the oyster ?

A. I could not tell. I think there have been about 800 applications
and perhaps 750 of these taken up. They might have eight acres to the
application, and if you take one-tenth of that you will get about what it
is worth.

Q. Do you think there is any territory in the county that would be
adapted to the cultivation of the oyster that has not been taken up?

A. None, except what is called the broken-down natural beds.

Q. What would you say would be the area of that?
A. Small.

ra 8

= Shree ncremmmemnne ase test

   

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 231

Q. As much as 1,000 acres ?

A. No. te ay
. Is there any oystering above Swansboro ¢
: Eighteen miles east of where I live and I don’t know much about

it there.
Q. What suggestions can you make in regard to that law?
A. I don’t know that I could make any.

MR. R. B, JARMAN,

Q. What recommendations have you to make to the Committee?
A. I don’t know that I have anything special, excepting protecting
our interest at the mouth of the river. Keep that open so that the fish

can pass and be free for all.
©. How near to the inlet do you think the men ought to be allowed

to fish? ,
A. Three miles. Nothing below Hatcher’s rock.

Q. How near is that?

A. Three miles. bine

Q. You think fishing should be prohibited within three miles of the
inlet ?

A. A mile on each side I think would be sufficient.

Q. A mile on either side?

A. Yes. ‘
Q. How much of the river to be kept free for the passage of fish

up and down?
A. I don’t know as there should be any. I don’t know that we would

need any particular part set aside for the passage of fish.

Q. How wide is the river? :

A. Will average three miles. It is about a mile and a half where
the fisheries are.

Q. What is the depth out there in the middle of the channel?

A. I think it will average about ten feet.

Q. What sort of nets are used in the river there ?

A. We use drop nets, principally gill nets, cotton nets, from 1 1-4 up
as large as they want. We use 2 inch and 2 1-4 for the mullet and trout.

Q. Are there any black bass or chub caught in the waters of this
river ?
A few. A good many are caught up the fresh water streams,
Any person engaged in catching these for shipment ?
T think not. Most of them are taken with hooks by sportsmen.
They do not engage in it as an industry ?
No.

rPOPOP

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. From your experience as a fisherman, do you think it would be
practicable for the government to deposit a number of white shad fry
in these waters?

A. I hardly think it would.

Q. You don’t think they would do well?

A. I don’t think so. We have a very shallow inlet and the current is
sluggish, and I don’t think they would do well.

Q. How about the oysters?

A. I don’t know much about them. I don’t believe that very many
good ones are in here now.

Q. Do you think that is due to the fact of their having been scraped
off so clean ?

A. They say so. A good many of the beds are dug up for clamming
and they have gone to mud. x

Q. Has the clam industry increased in the county during the past few
years?

A. They have been getting a good many more to ship.

Q. Are there more people engaged in it?

A. I think that’s the size of it.

Q. Any people planting clam gardens?

A. Not that I know of ?

Q. What suggestions would you make as to the improvement of the
oyster industry ?

A. I could not make any.

Q. You stated that there was a law covering the setting of nets
around the inlets and if that law could be enforced it would be of
benefit to the people up the river. Isn’t that law enforced?

A. I hardly think it is exactly like it ought to be. I don’t think the
fine is as large as it ought to be.

Q. It is the carrying out of the act that is not satisfactory ?

A. Yes; it is the machinery of the act that is not satisfactory.

Q. Do you think that the fishermen would be so benefited by the en-
forcement of that act that they could afford to pay twenty-five cents a
year to have that law enforced?

A. I should think so.

Q. Do you think that the law could be more effectively enforced if it
was enforced as a State law rather than a county law?

A. I do.

MR. U. G. CANNADY.

Q. Where do you fish ?

A. I do not fish at all. I am an oysterman.

Q. Are you engaged in oystering on the natural beds?

A. I take up seed; that’s all.

ROR SRS TE ee

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 233

Q. You have an oyster garden?

A. Yes.

Q. How large is it?

A. I have about a couple of hundred acres.
Q. Is it all seeded and planted?

A. It is all planted, but some of it is not any account. The water

got too salty.

Q. How many oysters did you ship from that last year?

A. I don’t know; it seems to me I ship less and less every year, I
can not tell you exactly how many I do ship. Not many. The water
is so salt until our oysters have gotten very small. And, too, the clams
are killing out the oysters. The government has gone and cut a channel
through the inlet and made the water saltier than ever before, and that
is what is killing out our oysters. I used to have only ten acres of
ground and got more oysters than I do out of 200 now. The water then
was just brackish, but since the government has been cutting down
around the inlet and let more salt water come in it has played the mis-
chief with the oysters.

Q. Do you think any mud comes from that cutting ?

A. No, I don’t think any mud comes, but just pure salt water.

Q. What was the bottom like before you began?

A. Some muddy and some sandy.

Q. Were there any clams there before you began?

A. No, it is the salt water that has ruined our oysters.

Q. When you plant oysters do you cull them, or just take them as
they come from the natural rock?

A. We just take them as they come from the natural bed.

Q. You simply throw overboard trash, ete. ?

A. We stand right in the boats with tongs and what we get we throw
right in.

Q. When you plant them, you don’t throw out the rubbish?

A. We throw it all out together.

Q. You throw mussels with it?

A. Yes, some parts of my garden, the mussels run them out.

Q. Don’t you think it would be better to cull them?

A. I don’t know. I have tried that but it seems you can not get many
at that. We need them rocks particularly.

Q. You don’t need any mussels?

A. No, we don’t need any mussels. When we scrape off the coon beds
it makes them better the next year.

Q. You think the trouble then is not in the method, but owing to the
salt water ?

a a cm TI Le TT

 

 
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234 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. Yes, it is the salt water. I used to raise them, but cannot do it

now.
Q. Where do you get your fine oysters

A. We used to raise them, but not lately. We can not get those fine
oysters now.

Q. What was the highest price you got for the oysters you sold last
season ?

A. The very best I got was $1.25 per bushel.

Q. What was the lowest price you took last season ?

A. About 60 cents, 50 cents, and along there.

Q. Do you know how many acres of land in this county are adapted
to oyster culture?

A. I own about 200 acres myself.

MR. J. W. BRINSON.

.Q. Are you a fisherman or an oysterman?
A. I am not a fisherman now and never was an oysterman. I did

fish about 30 winters, commencing about the middle of September and

finishing up about the first of March of each season.
Q. In your opinion has the supply of fish decreased in the waters

here?

A. There are about as many fish caught as there ever were, but it
is decreasing to the share. So many more people fishing than twenty-
five or thirty years ago, perhaps twenty to one. The prices then were
not so high as now, but more were caught to the man.

Q. Is the quality of fish equal to what they were then?

A. I don’t think we hardly have as large a trout as we have had in
times past. The mullet is about the same size, but altogether we don’t
catch as large fish as we did years back.

Q. What is your idea about the size net that should be fished?

A. When I was a fisherman we used all the way from 1 1-4 to 1 1-2
inch mesh. A mullet is a thing that is numerous at one time and scarce
at others. It looks like making a waste of the little ones to catch them

when they are so small.
Q. Do you think any limit ought to be fixed on the size of mullet that

should be sold?
A. I would hate to suggest that.
Q. Have you any recommendation to make to the Committee?

A. I don’t think that I have, particularly. When I was a fisherman
my fishing territory was from Hatcher’s Rock to J acksonville, here.
After you get to the head of Hatcher’s Rock the river becomes very nar-
row and some good deal of tide. After you get to the head of Hatcher’s
rock is something near a mile across, and then it varies from one to

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 235

three miles before you get up here. The fish has to come through a
narrow stream of water of about a mile and a half or two miles long,
and in this small, narrow place it looks reasonable to suppose that nets
in there would turn them back. I think it would be very beneficial to
the up-river fishermen to have some protection at that narrow water
near the inlet and at the inlet to let the fish come up where they could
spread out.
Q. What protection would you suggest ?

A. We have a law, but I don’t think it is enforced.
Q. Something to prevent them from fishing near the inlet? What

distance.

A. I never read it. You heard it discussed here yourself.

Q. If the law was regarded, you think it would be benficial ?

A. I am satisfied it would be for the up-river fishermen. Take a
fish in a narrow channel and let him get to the mouth of this place where

it spreads out a mile and he could not be captured so easily.
Q. Don’t you think it would be benficial to the fishing interest of

this county to have a Bureau of Fisheries, with the proper laws passed
and have an official enforcement for the whole State?

A. I have thought so. ;
Q. Would it not be better for those who engage in the fishing busi-

ness?

A. I think so.
MR. L. M. LAUDEN.

Q. How long have you been engaged in the fishing business?

A. I don’t fish a great deal, but buy them.

Q. Are you a fish dealer?

A. For about fifteen years.

Q. Do you see any decrease in the number of fish caught in this

county ?
A. No; there are more fishermen and more dealers and that makes

fish scarcer for the individual fisherman.
Q. Can you suggest any changes in the style of the nets that are used

as to size of the nets?
A. If we could have a State law that would reach us sufficient, I

think 1 1-2 inch nets would be a better size than 1 1-4. If the roe mul-

let could be protected I think that would help some.
Q. Do you think there should be a closed season provided, after which

there should be no fishing?
A. I ean hardly tell. It would put a hardship upon a good many

people.
Q. Would it not, in a year or two, increase the supply of fish so

that they would ultimately be benefited.

 

 

 
 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 237

236 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA
A. I can hardly tell. The fish come here and go out again when they Q. Can you make any suggestion as to the size of fish that should be '
are not caught. sold ?
. A. I don’t think so. I think it would be a very good thing if there

Q. Do you think it would be advisable to have any part of the chan-

nel of the river protectéd, so there could be a free passage ?
A. I think near and around the inlets should be protected, both inside

were not any fish allowed to be caught under 1 1-2 or 1 3-8 inch mesh.
Fish caught in a net under this size are so small and it takes so many to
and out. amount to anything. I have heard of them being caught and put on

Q. Hateher’s Rock. You think that the channel narrows up there? the market not over six inches long.
Q. Do you think there ought to be a law prohibiting a dealer from

A. Yes, and the water is shallow.
Q. You think there should be a law that they fish a certain propor- having in his possession a fish under a certain size?
A. Fish buyers are like everybody else. They generally buy fish as

tion of the channel?
A. Well, it looks like it would be a very good thing, but there are cheap as they can get them and the fisherman tries to get what he can
for them.

people there who are taxed very high, and they live on these borders.
Q. Are they taxed any higher than in any other part of the county? Q. Does that increase of the assessment of the land extend all up and
|

A. Yes; they are taxed higher than people farther up the river. down the river?

Q. Is that a local law for this county ? A. Petty much so.
A. The valuation is higher on their land. Q. How much higher rate of assessment do they have along there

Q. What is the valuation of land down there? than at other places? |
A. Land producing 400 pounds of seed cotton to the acre is valued at A. Something near eight times higher. WW

$25 per acre by the assesors of this township. Our land down there has Q. If the inlet and the lower part of the river was protected and you H

even a greater valuation placed upon it merely for the privilege of fishermen who use gill nets would be surer that the law would be en-
forced, would you fishermen object to paying a small tax?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Q. These nets that you were speaking of that should be removyed—

do they extend all across the river?
A. The fellers I was speaking of come from Morehead City in

there were a few years ago? Are the fishermen trying to market more

small fish now?
A. No, there are not as many, because there are more buyers.

 

ik fishing and oystering.
i] Q. Does that extend all the way up and down the river? A. We need a protection at New River Inlet against haul nets and
A. No. other nets set on the beach by non-residents of this county. They come i
i Wi Q. What is the land on either side of the river assessed at? in from Carteret County, from all up about Morehead and Beaufort ;
Ht A. I don’t know. and fill in all around the inlet with these haul nets. We who fish drop
Hi Hil Q. Are you being taxed at that rate? nets can only fish once in every five or seven hours; them fellers will .
Wald are come there in their sharpies, put one stake to the beach and run off, say
| Q. You live on the west side of the river. What is your neighbor on 50 or 100 yards down the beach, and will fasten one net to another until
i the other side assessed at? sometimes they fish with the net 500 yards long. There is another kind iH
i ‘A.’ Tt runs according to the distance he is from the water. of fishing down in New River, and that is the trout fishing. Those i
: ) i| Q. What suggestions would you make as to laws that might be fellers set their gill nets and let them stay for weeks and montlis at a }
AE || | passed to benefit the fishing ? ‘ time. When the trout come in the river they come up to those nets and i
HH | A. I hardly know. They might make some that would be better for turn and go out. If these set nets were not put in there from the first iV
| some and worse for others. It would undoubtedly be better for the of January these trout would come up in this river, and the people all if

ii general fishing industry if the lower part of the river and around the | along the river would have a chance to catch them. The supply of fish i
it inlets was entirely protected, but then it would work a hardship on don’t fall off much here, only in cold weather. We had a good supply i
) i those people who live down there. of trout here last winter, and one the winter before that, and if the ii
Hit Q. How would it be for the fish? winter is bad it kills them out. Trout are like white shad, the river H)
Hj A. It would give the fish more privilege. they usually go to they go to every year. The big trout seem to have i
i Q. Are there more small fish brought to you at the present time than been killed out by the cold weather. i)
{| i
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238 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

sharpies. They don’t fish in the river, only on the outside, in stake gill
nets. As far as gill nets are concerned they are no damage to the fish-
ing because it is only once every five or seven hours a man can run his
net.

Q. Suppose we pass some effective law that would protect the fish
after they come up the river—would the fishermen be willing to be

taxed 10 cents per hundred yards of gill nets if they knew the law was
going to be enforced effectively ?

A. I could not say.
Q. Would you, personally, be willing to pay the tax?
A. I would be willing if the law was enforced effectively to keep

away the set nets and seines from the mouth of New River, that the
non-residents of this county come and set. If there could be a law
passed to prohibit the setting of nets on the back of the beach and haul-
ing nets around the mouth of New River, I would be willing to pay the
tax of 10 cents on the hundred yards of gill net.

Q How much of that land is there that they complain of being
assessed at an excessive valuation ?

A. The eastern side of the river does not seem to be assessed so high

as the west side.
WILMINGTON MEETING.

JuLy 23, 1909.
Meeting called to order by Chairman and purpose explained.

MR. J. H. SULLIVAN.

Q. Where do you live?

A. Scott’s Hill, Pender County.

Q. In what business are you engaged ?

A. I am engaged ‘in fishing and shrimping.

Q. How long have you been engaged in the business of fishing and
shrimping ?

A. About fifteen years. :

Q. Do you notice whether there is any increase or decrease in the
number of fish found in your waters.

A. I notice that we have had a decrease for the past five years.

Q. To what do you ascribe that decrease?
A. Fish don’t raise in our waters much. We have shallow waters;

fish come in and out.
Q. What kind of fish do you catch in these waters, mainly?
A. Mullets, trout, pigfish, bluefish, ete.
Q. Do you catch any white shad or herring?
A. No white shad; hickory shad in the spring.

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 239

Q. What suggestions would you make to us as to what could be done
to increase the number of fish?

A. Our folks have a law now for seines 1 1-8 inch bar, which means
1 1-4 inch mesh. The majority of people as a rule order the seines
1 1-8 inch and tar them. When a seine is tarred it draws up. I would
suggest if a seine has to be tarred it should be ordered enough over 1 1-8
inch so that it would be this size when tarred.

Q. Do you think a 1 1-8 inch mesh is too small for the seine or do
you think, for the benefit of the fish interests, it ought to be larger?

A. I do not know that it ought in these waters.

Q. You mean 1 1-8 inch after tarring?

A. Yes, 1 1-8 inch after tarring. The law was established before
the tarring of seines came about much.

Q. Doesn’t that law mean that the net as used should be 1 1-8 inch.

A. It ought to mean that. We order from the factory 1 1-8 inch and
then tar it, which draws it up to an inch.

Q. Do you think it would be advisable to prescribe any length below
which the fish should be caught?

A. I don’t think it would because our seines are very limited in
length.

Q. What size fish do you think ought to be permitted to be caught?

A. I can not say about that, because I have never taken particular
notice of the sizes of fish.

Q. I believe you said that mullet was the principal fish that you
caught in these waters?

A. Yes, this time of the year mullets are the principal fish in our
waters?

Q. How large are the mullets that are one year old?

A. I don’t know the age of them. I never caught any young ones
and watched their growth. I should judge they were not very large.

Q. Is it a fish of very rapid growth?

A. That is hard for me to tell. I should think a fish two years old
would be a roe mullet.

Q. How large would that be?

A. That would be, I suppose, 1 7-8 inch bar to catch a roe mullet;
from that to 2 inches.

Q. Do you think there ought to be any closed season during which

the fish should not be caught?

A. No, I never took any notice of that. I should not think that
would make a great deal of difference.

Q. Do you think that fishing ought to be permitted in these waters
all the year round?

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

240 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. I should think so. There are fish all the year that are salable.
They have been very scarce for the past year or two, however.

Q. I suppose different fish prevail at each season of the year?

A. Yes. We have a fish for each season.

Q. When you are fishing for fish during a certain season, don’t you
often catch fish that ought not to be caught?

A. Yes.

Q. What becomes of them ?

A. They are turned loose some of them; some are pulled on the beach
and left there to die. As a general rule they pull the small qnes out
that they don’t want and let them die.

Q. What proportion do you think are allowed to die on the beach?

A. I should think 10 per cent.

Q. Isn’t it more than that?

A. That is a low estimate.

, Q. Are any of these food fishes used in the menhaden fish factories
here?

A. I don’t know about that. I have heard they use mullets in the
menhaden factories.

Q. You are particularly interested in the shrimp industry?

A. This time of the year I am.

Q. Could you tell us the value of the shrimp sold from your part of
the county in one year?

A. A rough valuation would be rated at perhaps $2,000 a year.

Q. What kind of net do you use in fishing for shrimp?

A. As a general rule they say 1-2 inch mesh; but I have been for the
last past two years using 5-8 inch bar, which makes 1 1-4 inch mesh.
It is more successful in catching the larger shrimp.

Q. If these persons who use smaller mesh than you are speaking of,
when they catch ‘these smaller fish, what do they do with them?

A. Some use them for fertilizer; some for other purposes; and some
not at all. They throw them away.

Q. Has the supply of shrimp increased or decreased ?

A. The supply of shrimp has decreased greatly.

Q. What per cent in the last five years?

A. I should say 50 per cent in the last five years.

Q. What suggestion would you make to increase the supply of
shrimp ?

A. I would suggest that shrimp seines should not be used any less than
5-8 inch bar, which is 1 1-4 inch mesh.

Q. Is there any regulation in this county or your own county pre-
scribing the size of the mesh?

A. No.

a ®

 

 

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 241

Q. In fishing for shrimp do you also catch fish?

A. Sometimes we catch a few; not a great many.

Q. What do you do with them?

A. They are used for fertilizer; a great many of them.

Q. Nearly all of them are killed?

A. I think so.

Q. Don’t you think that it has a tendency to decrease the amount
of fish?

A. Not a great deal. The shrimp seines are not very numerous yet
awhile; but the decrease in fish has been for the past five years.

Q. During what season do you catch them?

A. We usually catch them from the first of June to the first of
October.

Q. Do you think that in order to increase the supply of shrimp any
limit should be put upon the season in which they can be caught?

A. I could not say about that. The first of the season we have
pretty good shrimp and later they get sorry; the smaller ones come in,
and in the last of the season we have good ones all the way through.

Q. What is the spawning season for shrimp?

A. I could not tell.

Q. Is it possible to liberate the small shrimp?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you do so?

A. We take them right up. When we have small shrimp they die
very quickly. I would suggest that we use the 5-8 inch bar.

MR, JERRY HEWLETT. —_

Where do you live?
On Greenville Sound.
How far from here?
Between seven and eight miles.
How long have you been engaged in fishing?
Somewhere about forty-odd years. Ever since the war.
What kind of fish do you catch?
Catch all kinds.
What is your most available fish?
Principally mullet.
What size bar do you use?
A. One and one-eighth inch bar. Some of them use 3-4 inch, some
inch; all the way along.
Q. When they use a smaller sized mesh, do they not catch a great
many fish too small for use?
A. Yes; they are just killing all the fish up.

16

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242 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. You think one difficulty is the small size of the mesh?

A. Most of the people that fish say that it is killing the small fish out
and making compost out of them. One little shrimp net soon will kill
more little fish than we catch in New Hanover County. They have
them so deep now that they go in the holes and catch everything up.

Q. Suppose there was a law to prohibit shrimpers from taking fish,
could they liberate these fish before they would die?

A. I do not think they could, because of this hot weather; and by

the time they could get them up where they could pick them out they
would all drown.

Q. What in your opinion is the proper size mesh?

A. I think the present length and depth of shrimp seines ought to be
done away with. a

Q. Are there any shrimp in the deep waters, too?

A. Yes.

Q. If you were to do away with the shrimp seine for deep waters you
would have a fight with the shrimpers, wouldn’t you?

A. Yes; but if you allow any smaller mesh than 1 1-8 inch mesh
fished you would kill up all the little fish with the shrimp seines. A
1 1-8 inch seine would not kill them, and if they use a skim or dip net
which is made with a bar across each end, and about eight feet wide,
and shrimp get in it. Then they have a cast net that always catch
shrimp which will spread. They won’t kill up the little fish with either
one of them.

Q. Will you describe that cast net ?

A. A cast net is small at the top and widens down; is a net with goers
and a five-foot cast net will spread over a space of ten feet. They have
round leads on them and lines and when you pull that it spreads right
out in a circle. When you pull in that circle it scrapes the bottom. You
draw it up with a line with your hand and catch it by the horn, and
when you do the shrimp fall right out of the boat.

Q. Could shrimp fishing be profitably carried on if they were re-
stricted to the dip net?

A. Yes. They could catch all the shrimp they could do anything
with, and bigger ones.

Q. How long have they been using seines?

A. They have not been using them a great while. They get larger
and larger every year.

Q. When did they begin using seines?

A. There have been some seines ten or fifteen years back. I only
knew one here in our county at that time. I went out fishing last Sat-
urday and I went to one of the seines to get some shrimps that were
hauled by the deep seines in Masonboro Creek, and they had bushels of

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 243

little shrimp to make compost out of them. They had four bushels of
fish and three barrels of shrimp.

What size fish ‘were they ?

Some trout, some little drum, mullets, ete.

Were any of these fish marketable fish?

Yes; a few.

What proportion would you say?

. Out of the lot they had about two or three bunches of edible fish.
The same seine now has at least 15 or 20 bushels of little fish and
shrimp piled up in the pen making compast out of them. They will
fish the seines from now until late in the fall and every little fish caught
they put on the compost pile. ?

Q. How often does that occur?

A. Every day.

Q. Don’t they often catch considerable fish and no shrimp?

A. Sometimes they might, but they are always bound to catch some
small fish and shrimp.

Q. The occurrence that you speak of is rather unusual?

A. No; sometimes they catch heap more than that. They did not
haul but three or four hauls that day.

Q. If that is the usual occurrence, would it pay them to fish for
shrimp ?

A. Sometimes they catch two or three bushels of small fish and five
bushels of shrimp.

Q. This occurrence that you have just mentioned is not unusual?

A. That is a general occurrence with the shrimp seines where they
haul in the creeks.

Q. What do they give a quart for shrimp?

A. Two quarts for a quarter.

Q. Would you suggest a closed season for fishing and shrimping?

A. I think everybody ought to catch them when they can. The
shrimps are only here in the summer time. The small mesh seines are
bound to kill up the fish.

Q. Your idea is that the remedy is a larger mesh?

A. One and one-eighth inch is what our law is now, but if you make
it that for shrimp it would not pay.

Q. I am talking about a larger mesh for shrimp.

A. I think about 100 mesh deep of 25 or 30 or 40 yards will do just
as well as what they fish now.

Q. How long are the seines?

A. Some are 75 yards long now.

Q. You think they ought to be half as long?

A. A shrimp seine like it’s used now would be 40 feet deep.

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244 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Could you state how deep a 40 mesh seine is?

A. They can haul 10 feet of water with them now. When you hang
a seine or net it nearly doubles the depth because they hang it in a
triangular shape. Most of the people down around the sound now use
the shad seines, which are 1 3-4 inch mesh.

Q. How deep are the seines they have now for shrimp?

A. I mean the purse seines for menhaden. They. sell off these seines
now to the people at a reduced price, less than they can order them for,
and they get them and kill up the fish fore and aft. They dump them
on the shore and let them lie and rot.

Q. Do they catch shad in these seines?

A. I don’t know; they catch everything that gets in them.

Q. What do you mean by shad; you don’t mean white shad?

A. I know very little. About four or five years ago one of the fish
boats came out opposite us and struck mullets in August. They loaded
the boat with the August mullet. They went into Moore’s Inlet, put
the mullets on the cars, and when they got here they were all rotten.
They had to give them to men here to make compost. Fall before last
this shad factory down the river it is said caught 300 bushels of little
mullets. They could not sell them and carried them back down the
river.

Q. What would you think of a law combining the fish, oyster, and
shrimp interests, and making a Bureau with a Commissioner and Board
of Directors to make rules and regulations for the different counties
and to enforce the law?

A. I think that would do very well. Our county has very shallow
water. With 1 1-4 inch seines our people would not catch enough to
eat only one or two months in the year, but make it 1 1-8 inch and they
would catch all the year round. I think that would be a proper way to
do it. We have no protection now.

Q. Do they violate the law?

A. Yes; every day.

Q. Are they indicted for it?

A. No.

Q. Why?

A. No one wants to bother with them. No one wants to get the
prejudices of another.

Q. Do you know of an instance where one has been indicted and con-
victed for violating the law?

A. No; I don’t know of any.

Q. But you do know that they fish smaller seines than the law per-
mits?

A. Yes; nets and seines both.

ae

Arley

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 245

Q. What would be the condition if you had the law repealed entirely ?

A. It would be just about like it is now.

Q. If the law was obeyed would it be of any value to you?

A. Yes; I think it would be a big value. ~

Q. Where do shrimp breed and spawn?

A. In the creeks and about in the sounds. We have a shrimp that is
called a “mammy” shrimp which set the whole year round and these
are the ones that lay eggs.

Q. Have you ever seen them with eggs?

A. Yes; they carry them underneath.

Q. At what season of the year have you seen that?

A. Along in the spring.

Q. Are there any nets fished here other than seines ?

A. Plenty of them; more gill nets than anything else.

Q. In what waters are they fished 4

A. Fished in the same waters as the seines.

Q. Are they fished all across the rivers and sounds?

A. In the sound, yes. All about in different places.

Q. Do you think that they obstruct the passage of fish up the stream ?

A. No.

Q. Do you fish gill nets yourself?

A. Ne.

Q. What do you think of the proposition to prohibit the fishing of
all nets on a certain proportion of the river?

A. I never fished a net in the river; only fish in the sound and outside
on the back of the beach.

Q. Do you ever get any white shad?

A. Once in a while, along in May we may catch one or two.

Q. Do you know anything about the white shad in the river?

A. No.

Q. Do you think the gill nets that are fished in the sound do any
harm ?

A. I think they kill up the small mullets in the winter time.

Q. Are there any pound nets in use in this county?

A. No.

Q. You have been engaged in fishing all your life?

A. Yes; on the coast. Not in the rivers.

Q: When you were a young man were there any white shad that
came up the river?

A. Yes; plenty of them. My father and older people always shadded
in the spring of the year.

Q. Are there many that come now?

A. They say not. You don’t see many about in the spring.

             

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

246 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. From what you have heard others say, to what do you ascribe the
decrease ?

A. The stake nets. Most all lay it to the stake nets.

Q. Is that a pound net?

A. It is a net that is set on stakes and the shad go and get in. A
pound net is, I suppose, something like a purse seine.

Q. You think the people who engage in that industry ascribe it to
the fact that there are too many stake nets set across the channel?

A. Yes, and all up the river, that is below Wilmington. None are
set across the channel; they are set along the edge of the channel. I
have heard old fishermen of shad say they could see long strings of
shad lying on the bottom when the tide would turn. A shad will give
up mighty quick. ;

Q. How would he fall out of the gill net?

A. He would not be far enough in to hold his weight when the tide
turned the opposite way.

‘Q. Do you think that it would be advisable to pass a law prescribing
that no mullets should be caught or be in possession below a certain
length?

A. That would be almost equal to a 1 1-8 inch mesh seine,

Q. You could accomplish the same purpose by regulating the seine?

A. Yes. <A seine large enough for that mullet to get through would
not catch it.

Q. You have stated that you catch all sorts of fish. Will you state
what are the principal kinds of fish you catch?

A. Spots, bluefish, trout (different kinds); and all fish that go in
salt water. Some bluefish two feet long. 5

Q. Do you catch any large bluefish ?

A. Sometimes catch a few.

Q. How large? .

A. Medium size; 12 or 14 inches. We catch them along in the fall
of the year along the beach.

- Do you catch any mackerel?
Yes.

Do you fish on the other beach?
No.

Do you catch any sturgeon?
No.

Has any one ever caught any sturgeon there?

They catch one or two sometimes with the haul seines in the sound.
Have they ever fished sturgeon gill nets off there?
No; not that I know of.

POPOPOPOPO

 

 

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 247

Q. Is there any particular matter you wish to mention to the Com-

mittee.
A. Nothing, only doing away with the small mesh seines and the

purse seines.

Q. How close do they fish these purse seines to the inlets?

A. When they struck the August mullets the other fall, they struck
them within half a mile of the beach, and about a mile of the inlet.
Last fall and fall before last they lay all around the inlets.

Q. Do they do that as a regular thing, or is it exceptional?

A. That was the only boat that did that.

Q. What do you think of a law prescribing the distance nets ought to
be set from the inlets?

A. I don’t know. I don’t think that would do any good except for

the purse seines.
MR. WILLIAM HOLLIS.

Q. How long have you been engaged in fishing?
A. I don’t know, about 20 or 25 years.
Q. Where do you fish?

A. In the sounds.
Q. Have you any recommendations to make to this Committee that

you think will be beneficial to the fishing interests?

A. I don’t know. I think if they would regulate the seines and nets
to 1 1-8 inch mesh that it would be beneficial.

Q. Have the law and enforce it, in other words?

A. If it is not enforced it is no use to have it.

Q. What method would you suggest of enforcing it?

A. I don’t know of any way but to have some one go and see that the
nets are in that shape.

Q. Your idea would be to have a deputy commissioner in this county?

A. We would have to have something like that One fisherman is not
going to indict another if he can help it. :

Q. What are the principal fish that you catch?

A. Mostly mullets; trout along in the spring of the year.

Q. Would you approve a law prescribing the length of fish that should
be caught or marketed?

A. Could not get at that. You could only regulate the size of mesh.
If you get a lot of fish in a seine you are obliged to get some small
ones. They can not all sift through.

Q. Is there any practicable way of liberating the smaller fish and
keeping the larger ones?

A. No; you could hardly do it.

Q. Suppose there were a law passed that prohibited a dealer from

   
  
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
   
  
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

 

  
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

248 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

having such a fish in his possession and a fisherman from having such
a fish in his possession; don’t you think that would prevent the fisher-
man from catching such fish?

A. I don’t think they ought to be used for fertilizer. When you
strike around a school of mullets lots of times there are sinall ones
in amongst them, and you can not help but catch them, unless you turn
them all loose.

Q. Could you liberate these ?

A. No. Not until they were dead.

Q. Could you say that a shrimp seine was very destructive?

A. I could not. I never saw a shrimp seine hauled half a dozen
times in my life.

Q. Do you fish any on the outside?

A. No.

Q. Is there any oystering done in your section ?

A. Yes; we have the oyster down there.

Q. How is the supply of oysters now, compared with what it was ten
years ago?

A. Not one-tenth as many.

Q. To what do you think that decrease in oysters is due?

A. Owing to the catching of them and the salt water breaking
through the inlets have killed a lot of oysters.

Q. Are there any people in your section of the county engaged in
planting oyster gardens?

A. I don’t think there is to amount to anything.

Q. Has it ever been done in that section ?

A. No.

Q. Do you think that your waters are such that if persons could be
induced to go into it, it would be profitable ?

A. I do not know that it would.

Q. How did the salt water kill these oysters ?

A. The water is more salt than it used to be. Sometimes when we
had big rains it would be pretty fresh, and the oysters would do better.
Are there many clams found in your waters?

Not now; there used to be a good many.

How long ago since you noticed the decrease?

There has been a decrease ten years back.

What is the decrease in clams due to?

Catching so many.

Do you think the demand for them has grown?

Yes. A few years ago there was no sale hardly and when the
markets opened up and the people found it out they caught them all up.

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 249

Q. What suggestion would you make to us as to means by which the
clam industry might be fostered and promoted ?

A. I don’t know. :

Q. What would you think of a closed season as to when clams should
not be caught ?

A. They have a law to that effect now, I think.

Q. At what time is that closed season ?

A. From April to November.

Q. Do you think that law is of any use?

A. Yes; it has done some good. If it had not there would not have
been any there.

Q. Is not there something that you could suggest that the committee
could recommend whereby this industry could be increased ?

A. I don’t know that there is, unless you stop them altogether for
two or three years.

Q. Could not they catch enough fish to live on?

A. I don’t know what part of the people would do for a living.

Q. Are the men engaged in clamming also engaged in other fishing?

A. Yes; they fish through the summer and fall. We don’t have any
fish in our sounds through the winter to amount to anything.

Q. The present law allows the fishermen to catch the clams at the
only time they could catch them anyway?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you think that law does any good?

A. Yes; it helps.

Q. Would you recommend any closed season during which the fish
could not be caught?

A. I don’t know.

Q. What would you think of a proposition to place this county under
a State jurisdiction so far as'the enforcement is concerned ?

A. I don’t know.

Q. Do you think that if laws were provided that would be advanta-
geous to this county, would it be enforced ¢

A. I don’t suppose it would.

Q. Suppose a law were passed, could it be enforced better by a State
officer or a county officer?

A. I don’t see that it could be enforced any other way only by a
State or county officer.

Q. Do you think it would be well to try what the State could do?

A. They have a law, or say they have it now, but it is not paid any
attention to.

Q. Do you think it would be well to repeal the law?

        

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

250 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. I think it would be well enough to enforce the law or let every-
body do what they please about fishing.

‘Q. You think the law ought to be enforced or else repealed?

A. Yes; I do.

Q. You think the law would be advantageous?

A. I do if you have 1 1-8 inch mesh.

MR. D. J. FERGUS.

Up to about two years ago there was not any inlet near Carolina
Beach. We had twelve miles of inside waters from Masonboro Inlet
up to the head of Greenville Sound, and I suppose the members of this
committee have heard of the Masonboro oysters and of the fact of the
head of the inlet being twelve miles from this sound, which made the
oysters very fine. Almost as large as New River oysters, and they were
of a very fine flavor. Two years ago this inlet broke in just this side of
Carolina Beach, which caused the salt water to be close to them, and
thé oysters are nothing in comparison to what they were before this
inlet broke through.

Q. Do you mean it has destroyed the oysters, or injured their quality
so that they can not be sold?

A. It has injured the size of them and they have not the flavor they
formerly had.

MR. HOLLIS.

Q. Don’t you think that it would be a good plan to close the clam
season all the year, except January and February?

A. I do not know.

Q. What price are you getting now?

A. Prices are low. Sold from $1 to $1.25 a bushel.

Q. How small clams do they catch?

A. They catch them pretty small. Some of them are not wider than
a quarter.

Q. Is it a fact that these small clams bring a higher price than the
large ones?

A. They do sometimes.

Q. Do you think that for the benefit of the clam industry it would
be well to prohibit the catching of clams as small as that? Would it be
better for the industry to prohibit the catching of clams that small?

A. I suppose it would, in a measure. It would be hard to regulate.

Q. Would they not be subject to inspection if there were officers for
that purpose?

‘A. A short season, I think, would be the best for a few years.

Q. If they were permitted to catch them only six months during the
year would not they catch small ones just as much then?

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 251

A. No one is going to get little clams if he can find large ones. They
all do the best they can.

Q. Do you deal in clams?

A. I ship some clams.

Q. Do you get the small clams late or early in the season ?

A. I think we get more later\in the season than early.

Q. What season would you suggest for the open season for clam fish-
ing?

A. January and February.

Q. And what months do you get the small ones?

A. In September we go to digging clams, and I find that we have
larger clams then and smaller ones later in the season.

Q. You say latér in the season. What months do you mean?

A. February and March.

Q. And your proposition is to allow them. to catch them during Jan-
uary and February?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you think of this law that was passed during the past
session of the Legislature (chapter 906, Acts of 1909, limiting the size
of the fish that can be caught)? Do you think that is a wise law?

A. It looks like that is a small enough fish to catch.

Q. Don’t you think that it would be to the interest of the fish industry
that the law ought to be amended so as to prevent them from catching
as small fish as are described in that law?

A. I do not see if they haul how they are going to keep from catching
some little fish, When they throw them away they are wasted. The
best way I see is to regulate the size of the mesh.

Q. Can’t they release these fish without killing them?

A. No; there is no way to get them back without killing them.

Q. The only way you think in which that could be provided against
is by increasing the size of the mesh?

A. Yes; even when you haul 1 1-8 inch mesh you are obliged to get
some small fish.

Q. Do you know of any instance where they destroy a large number
of these unsalable fish and either use them for fertilizer or sell them to
the menhaden factories ?

A. No.

MR. WM. AINSWORTH.

Q. How long have you been engaged in the fishing business?
A. About nine years.

Q. Where do you fish?
A. About twenty miles down the river.

            

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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252 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. What kind of fish do you catch?

A. Mostly white shad.

Q. What has been your observation and experience? Has the supply
of shad decreased ?

A. They have decreased.

Q. To what extent ?

A. Probably forty per cent.

Q. What is the cause of that decrease ?

A. I think we fish too late when we fish on the spawning grounds up
the river the last of April and first of May.

Q. Is there any limit prescribed in which they shall not fish?

A. There is, but they allow them to fish longer up the river in the
spawning grounds than the law allows here.

Q. Where is the spawning ground?

A. Up where the river is small.

,Q. Up by Fayetteville?

A. Between here and Fayetteville.

Q. At what time do you think the nets should be taken out of the
river?

A. Not later than the tenth of April, and they should be stopped all
the way up the river.

Q. Do you eatch any herring here?

A. They catch some way up the river, but none down our way.

Q. From the information you have gathered, has the supply of
herring decreased in proportion to the supply of shad?

A. I could not say. I am a stake net fisherman—stake gill net.

Q. Have the number of persons engaged in fishing decreased in the
past ten years?

A. Yes; I think they have.

Q. To what extent ?

A. I don’t know.

Q. Do you think that the aggregate supply of fish is smaller or that
owing to the fact that so many people are engaged in fishing that the
catch of each individual is smaller?

A. They are not shipped,

Q. What length seine do you use in your waters?

A. We haul drift nets and stake nets.

Q. And the limit is 300 yards?

A. There is a law regulating the drift nets to 300 yards, but most of
them are from 400 to 600 yards.

Q. Have you ever known any man indicted in this county for viola-

tion of the fish law?
A. Never heard of it.

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 253

Q. In your opinion would it be wise and to the interest of the fishing
industry to have these waters put under the jurisdiction of the fish
commission so that the law could be enforced ¢

A. No.

Q. What would you think of the establishment of a Bureau of Fish-
eries by the State and pass general laws for the State, and give the
Board power to make rules and regulations applicable to each county ?

A. Yes; there should be a law passed regulating the size of the mesh
and put it in somebody’s hands to enforce. I think that would come
nearer to it than anything else.

Q. Do you fish for anything else beside shad?

A. Shad, eels, trout, mullets.

Q. Has the supply of rock and trout decreased in proportion to the
shad?

c-X 68.

To what do you ascribe the decrease ¢

Long seasons and small mesh nets.

What remedy would you suggest ?

A. Regulate the mesh in catching the mullets and smaller fish.

Q. What mesh would you recommend should be used ?

A. Not smaller than 1 1-4 inch bar, and preferably 1 3-8 inch.

Q. Would you have that apply to both gill nets and seines ?

A. They haul some seines on the outside beach that are 1 1-4 inch.
They use 1 1-8 inch mostly now, but 1 1-4 inch would be better. The
price of the fish caught in them is less; they decrease the fish by catch-

ing the smaller ones, and it takes so many more of them to make a
pound. If allowed to stay in the water longer the same number of fish
would weigh a great deal more.

Q. Do the fishermen get different prices for the size of the fish, or
do you sell them by the pound?

A. Sell them by the bunch. There are supposed to be three pounds
on the bunch, but the smaller the fish the less the bunch weighs,

j Q. Are there pound nets used on the Cape Fear River?

) A. A few; not many now.

Q. In what part of the Cape Fear were they used?

; A. Right down: close by me.

Q. Is that down near Horse Shoe shoal ?
A. At Peter’s Point, down there.
Q. How far out on the river do these pound nets extend ?

A. Some of them half a mile out; some a mile.

Q. You say it is unlawful to use that net now?

A I think they have cut them out and the stake nets too, at the last

Legislature.

Orer

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254 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

How many pound nets were used there last year?
I think there were two.
You mean two stands or two pounds?
I mean two nets.
. Do you think the use of these pound nets had any effect on the
fish ?
A. They kill up a lot of small fish. The fish get in there and they
bale them out and a lot die.
What was the size of the mesh in these pound nets?
About an inch bar or 1 1-8 mesh.
Was that in the pocket of the net?
Yes.

Do you use these nets fishing at any time yourself ?
No.

. What proportion of small fish were killed because they were not
salable?

"A. I can not answer that.

' Q. Is there a man here who is fishing these nets?

A. Mr. Henneker. I would like a law which allowed us to fish the
stake nets with the proper regulations, and the drift nets be kept a cer-

tain length of the channel. If over 300 yards they drift into the stake
nets.

Q. What length would you suggest would be proper for these nets?
A. The present law of 300 yards is all right, if enforced.
Q. You say that law is not enforced ?

OPOPSO

OPOoPOorO

A. Nobody to enforce it. If you would just give all hands a show.

with the proper régulations, I think it would be a good thing.

Q. Did you say that you approved of the fishing of pound nets in
the Cape Fear?

A. I disapprove of it.

Q. How many fish do they catch, as compared with the other fish-
ermen ?

A. They catch mostly cat fish in this river and a few trout.

Q. Do they catch any shad?

A. No; only a very few. They are not in the shad grounds.

Q. Have you any regulations as to how far out in the channel you
ean fish drift nets?

A. No; they can not fish only where there is plenty of water. They
have to be in the channel where they will drift. The drift nets are
fished in the channel, while the stake nets come out a certain distance
from the shore.

Q. You can fish drift nets a certain distance from the shore?

A. Yes; you can until this law that is passed goes into effect.

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 255

Q. Do you ever have any trouble with eels destroying the shad?

A. Some. That comes along in April, when the water gets warm.

Q. What per cent of the shad do you have destroyed?

A. A mighty small per cent. In catching a thousand shad you
might lose, say ten, and that only in April. Take out the nets the first
of April and you would lose none.

Q. Do you catch any sturgeon in these waters?

A. Never fished for sturgeon. Some are caught, however.

Q. Are there any parties engaged exclusively in sturgeon fishing?

A. I don’t think there are any engaged specially in it. When the
shad season closes they take up the sturgeon.

Q. How early do you begin to catch shad? How late?

A. About the first of February and until the twentieth of April.

Q. Between February 1st and April 20th, what other kind of fish
do you catch?

A. Rock, and a few cat.

Q. To what extent would the shad fishing be benefited to prohibit
the fishing of nets of all kinds in the middle of the river, of one-sixth
of the width of the river and to keep a channel down the middle of the
river?

A. You can not fish a drift net any other way except in the channel.
Such a law would practically kill the shad industry. You have to throw
these nets out and if the tide sets across them they have to be taken up
and thrown out again farther up the river.

Q. What is the shallowest water in which you can fish a drift net
in the river?

A. I think they fish in 40 or 45 meshes deep.

Q. How many feet is that?

A. Twenty or twenty-five feet of water. Possibly eighteen. The
farther down they get they make the meshes deeper.

Q. Is there a law in Brunswick County regarding stake and pound
nets?

A. I think there is a law prohibiting the use of them on that side of
the river. . They have only been allowed on this side of the channel.

Q. Isn’t Wednesday a lay day for fishing in the river?

A. It has been, but that law has never been enforced.

Q. Do you fish seven days in the week?

A. Yes; eight if there were an extra day. When you put the stake
nets out you have to fish them on Sunday, or else lose the fish entirely.
You can haul in a drift net when the tide runs out to the end of the
reach and it is taken out, but you can not take out the stake nets.

Q. Do you think there ought to be any lay day?

A. Tf the regulation was right it would not do any good.

                     

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

256 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Is not Sunday a lay day anywhere?

A. Nobody fishes except the ones that have stake nets out.

Q. Do you think the shad industry would be benefited if the United
States Government would put 5,000,000 young fry in the river every
year?

A. It would if they were protected and not allowed to be caught
up as they are going out and allowed to come up and spawn again.

Q. Do they catch any on the down run?

A. No; I think they most all die in the river.

Q. You think they die in the river? What makes you think that?

A. I never see them go out.

Q. Would you recommend a hatchery on the Northeast River?

A. Yes; that would be a good thing.

Q. Where are the fish marketed that are caught in these waters?

A. All in the northern markets, Philadelphia, New York, ete.

Q. Can you give us an estimate of the value of fish that are caught in
these waters ?

A. I can not.

Q. Any other suggestions you can make to us?

A. Outside the regulation of the mesh of the nets, gill nets, ete., I
don’t know of anything else.

Q. You are not interested in the oyster business ?

A. No; I am not. I have been in other parts of the country, and I
think if an oyster garden law was properly regulated it would fix that
all right.

Q. You mean the law properly framed or enforced ?

A. Properly framed and properly enforced.

MR. W. H. YOPP.

I would like to make a statement in the outset that I am not a prac-
tical fisherman. All the fish I ever caught were with a silver hook. I
buy and ship them. I have been engaged in the packing and shipping
business twenty-five years next November. I handle shad from up the
river and used to handle sturgeon when we had them. We have caught
more this year than we have perhaps in the last eight or ten years. I
handle salt water fish of all descriptions.

Q. Where do you ship your fish?

A. I ship to points in North Carolina, South Carolina, Richmond,
Norfolk, Washington, Baltimore, Philadelphia, and New York.

Q. Can you give us an approximate value of the fish and oysters
shipped from these waters?

A. TI could not do it off-hand. I have had occasion to give to the

a

 

   

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 257

United States representatives who come down here every year figures
regarding this. I keep a book specially printed for that purpose. I
could approximate it by saying there are five shippers here and I pre~
sume the five shippers together would handle at least 300,000 bunches
of fish caught out of the salt water. Then the hucksters here in the
city probably handle twice as many as we do. I should say there are a
million bunches of fish brought to this market in the year.

Q. What would be their value?
A. At eight cents per bunch, for 400,000 bunches. The packers, I

presume, handle 400,000 and the retailers 600,000. Some seasons of
the year they are cheaper than others. These are the salt water fish
taken from the ocean. There are very few fish caught in the Cape Fear
River. Shad and catfish are the ones caught in this river.

Q. How did your business the past year compare with your business

for two or three years prior?

A. For the past two or three years the catch of fish on the sounds
has been smaller than it was prior to this. Some attribute it to the
weather, wind, ete.; I do not think there are as many fish caught on the
coast as there were fifteen or twenty years ago, while there are more
people fishing.

Q. To what do you attribute that?

A. It is on account of so many people being engaged in fishing. It
is calculated to frighten the fish. I have heard this argument produced.

Q. Have you heard that the motor boats run the fish away?

A. I have never heard that suggested; in fact they don’t use them for
fishing purposes around our sound.

Q. They are used a good deal for other purposes?

A. Used in the river, but very few in the sound.

Q. You think it has no effect on the fishing industry? We have had
that idea advanced to the committee.

A. So far as my knowledge goes, I would say no.

Q. Speaking of shipping, do you supply the markets of Charlotte,
Winston, Greensboro, etc., in that part of the State?

A. I have very little trade in that section. Have made some ship-
ments to Greensboro and Salisbury, but as a general thing I seldom get
an order from that section.

Q. From what markets are these supplied?

A. They are supplied from Morehead, Norfolk, and Charleston.

Q. Is there any difference in the rates from these points and from
Norfolk and Charleston ?

A. I think we have a cheaper rate than Norfolk.

Q. How much cheaper?

A. Some twenty-five cents or fifty cents per box cheaper.

17

    
 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

SEAS LO RP TEEN: ‘ ae

258 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. How is it at Salisbury and Greensboro ?

A. I think it is about the same.

Q. What would you suggest as the best means of promoting the fish
industry in this section ?

A. If you speak of the fish caught in salt water I would be compelled
to say I am entirely at sea. I have heard fishermen say that the small
meshes destroy the fish, but more of them argue that our waters being
shallow, and the fish being migratory, they don’t stop in our waters.
Take Moore’s Inlet and Masonboro Inlet, where the waters are shallow;
they come in and pass out. During the winter months there are no fish
to be caught around here, and in consequence they use the smaller
seines and catch the smaller fish. Down in Pender and Onslow counties
the water is deeper and the fish are there possibly the year round. They
come and pass out. I am not just exactly prepared to say in regard to
the size of the mesh as to whether it should be regulated as this gentle-

-man who preceded me suggested or not, and I feel that I would prefer
fishermen to pass on. that question themselves.

Q. What suggestion could you make to us as to shad fishing in the
Cape Fear? ;

A. I have been furnishing men with fishing tackle for five years to
catch shad in the river, and my observation has been that ever since
they began to use the stake nets in the river, which I think was about
nine years ago, the shad have decreased. I had occasion to write the
Fish Commissioner, Mr. Bowers, from time to time to get him to plant
shad in this river, and during the session of the last Legislature I got
up a bill and had it introduced by Colonel Morton and Mr. Empie to
break up the fishing of the stake nets. These stake nets are placed near
the inlets, and as I understand it, some are just abreast of Moore Inlet
at a place called * * *. I asked Mr. Bowers if he thought they had
a tendency to lessen our catch here, and he replied, “Undoubtedly they
did, and should not be permitted.” I sent that letter to Colonel Morton
at the Legislature. A law was then passed to take out the stake nets
and drift nets at the mouth of the river. I wrote Mr. Bowers for some
more fry, and he replied that we would get no fry until we protected
our own fishing industry. I sent that to Mr. Gordon, our Representa-
tive, and asked him to tell Mr. Bowers that the last Legislature had
ordered these nets taken out of the river. eae

Q. What proportion of the shad that you had in the last five years
were caught in the nets that you speak of ?

A. Speaking for myself, I only had one row, and that was not a long
one. They tell me in a good season, when the fish are running well, that
they outeatch the drift net by two to one, and that great quantities of
the fish caught never benefit the fishermen or any one else. The nets,

a®
Yeh

I ele

Pane tones,

   

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 259

as I understand it, are put in the water at the beginning of the season
and are never taken out, always fishing, every day and Sunday, too. As
to the drift nets, we have no law about that, but they usually quit
fishing down the river every Saturday morning and go back some time
Monday.

Q. In what way do these nets injure the shad?

A. I have read if you take any stream of water in which the shad
come up and put a dam or barrier across that river, they would come
up for several years, and finding this barrier they would finally. abandon
coming up there altogether. I imagine that the stake nets down there
operate somewhat as a barrier, because while the length of the shad nets
have been operated in violation to the law, I understand that the fish-
ing of those stake nets have been in constant violation of the law. In-
stead of keeping off within half a mile of each other they go closer and
closer, and therefore I imagine they act as a barrier, keeping the shad
from passing up the river. I have based my conclusions on the fact that
the shad have been constantly decreasing, according to my books, since
the nets began to be fished, about nine years ago. This past season,
however, we have had an increase of about one-third over the previous
year.

Q. Don’t they set nets -very thick in Albemarle Sound?

A. Yes; but they have more water.

Q: What proportion of the fish that you purchase come from the
Cape Fear above Wilmington?

A. I should say that I have had perhaps 18 per cent of the entire
catch from above Wilmington.

Q. What kind of nets are you fishing up there?

A. Drift nets.

Q. You think that is equal to that of other gentlemen engaged in the

business ?
A. I think so. I think the nets that I had there were about as well

fished as those of any others.

Q. Over what proportion of the river do these nets extend?

A. The river is about 200 yards wide and a net would cover about
140 yards. A drift net covers the middle of the river, and only a
small boat can get by on each side. They fish a net as long as they can,
regardless of navigation.

Q. Are there nets that extend all the way across the river, just to
allow a sufficient width for boats to go around ?

A. Yes; I think so. I don’t think the drift nets down below ought to
be over 300 yards long.

Q. What is the length they use?

   

H
}
}
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260 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. I would not be surprised if they don’t fish them from 350 to 400
yards; some of them possibly 600.

Q. Don’t you think that the fishing of nets up the river has as much
to do with the decrease of shad as the fishing of nets down the river?

A. They don’t catch as much. The percentage is small.

Q. What is the closest stake net to the mouth of the river?

A. Nine miles, I suppose.

Q. How many hours a day are these drift nets fished in the waters
up above the city?

A. (Mr. Fail answers.) A feller can go out all day if he wants to.
I would say maybe six to nine hours out of the twenty-four, on an aver-
age. In windy weather they can not fish at night, and they only go out
at night according to the tide. The current is very strong up the river
most of the time. ;

Mr. Yopp:—There are perhaps 300 fishermen on the river catching
shad, and from the information I could get there are not exceeding a
dozen who favor the fishing of the stake nets in the river. Two hundred
and eighty-eight wanted them removed.

Q. How many of that 288 fished stake nets?

A. I do not know.

Q. Half of them?

A. I don’t suppose over twenty-five fished stake nets. I think there
were about twenty-five, all told.

Q. In a net 100 yards long; do you catch more fish in a stake net or
a gill net?

A. If the fish are running you would catch more in the stake net,
and if not running you would not catch any. As the weather gets
warmer they go on the eastern shore.

Q. Where is the spawning ground in the Cape Fear for the shad?

A. I presume they are above Black River. I should say perhaps
twenty or twenty-five miles from here, or beyond that in the various
rivers and tributaries.

Q. You mean that they all go up there?

A. Generally speaking.

Q. Do you find as ready a sale in market for the small as you do for
the large fish?

A. No; I don’t.

Q. If it were a misdemeanor for a dealer or a fisherman to have a
small fish in his possession would it not help the industry?

A. ‘Yes.

Q. Are there many fishermen in New Hanover County who devote
their entire time to fishing, and do not do any farming?

A. I don’t think any of them devote themselves entirely to fishing.

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yh

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 261

As I stated a while ago, we don’t begin to get the fish down here that you
get farther east in North Carolina. Some of these men outside of the
clams they catch during the winter, are dependent entirely on the
small fish for their livelihood.

Q. Do you think that such a law would work any more hardship on
a community where the fishermen earn part of their livelihood from
farming than on a place where they devote their entire time to fishing?

A. The fishermen have not really got farms. They have a few garden
spots. Some few of them make some lettuce during the season, and
sgme potatoes and peanuts, but their living is mainly fishing and
clamming. There are so many days during the fishing season that they
are prevented from fishing on our coast, owing to the northeast winds,
and the fish go by and then can not get them at all. I have known it to
be the-case for a period of ten days they would not get any at all, when
the fish were passing by in great quantities. ; t

Q. Do you get many fish from the Northeast River ? i

A. We don’t fish up there a great deal. A few shad nets are fished '
up the Northeast River; I suppose not exceeding dalf a dozen.

Q. How is it with Black River ?

A. I don’t think we get any fish up in Black River. .

Q. Is there anything else that occurs to you that would be of interest |
to the committee to assist us in arriving at a conclusion ? |

A. Nothing that I can think of. I am mainly interested in getting
stake nets removed from the river, believing they damage our catch of
shad.

Q. What about the shrimp business?

A. I handle only a few shrimp. Very few caught this season.

Q. You think there ought to be any regulation in regard to catching
shrimp ?

A. I should judge so. I rather agree with some of the gentlemen
who have spoken that the seines are entirely too long and too deep. I
have understood from time to time that great quantities of small fish

are caught every day and do no one any good at all.
Q. Don’t you think that it would be the best thing for North Caro-

lina to have a Bureau of Fisheries, with power to regulate things of
that kind, and make rules and regulations suitable for each county and
have a general law for the whole State?

A. I have no doubt it would.

MR. FAIL. i}

The Northeast River is the most important thing I can think of for

a hatchery.
Q. Why do you select the Northeast River?

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

262 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. This river is better adapted with its clear, beautiful water and no
currents.

Q. Do they catch any spawning shad in these waters?

A. Yes.

Q. What do you mean by spawning shad?

A. Those ready for use in hatcheries.

Q. Do you get them in any numbers?

A. We could by having more nets up there.

Q. In what part of the Northeast River does the shad Spawn ?
A

. All the way up. I would say from the mouth of the river to the
mountains.

Q. Is there fishing all along?
A. No; there are some reaches that nets can not fish in—a great
many like that.

Q. Would it be possible to open up that river free of all fishing and
have a hatchery?

‘A. That would not work any hardship. With the hatchery up.there
the more fishermen the better.

Q. It would work no hardship on the men further down the stream?

A. No.

Q. Do you think the fishermen would be willing to have a closed sea-
son beginning the middle of April, during which they could eatch no
shad?

A. We have a law for a close season now, beginning April 15.

Q. Is that law enforced ?

A. No.

Q. How far up does that prohibition extend? Does it include the
entire length of the river?

A. It just includes this county, I suppose. It permits the use of
drift nets up to the first of May.

Q. Would the fishermen object to having that closed season advanced
to the middle of April?

A. I think that meets with the approval of the fishermen up to the
first of May. If we could have all the fishing stopped up the river we
might agree to the middle of April. About the first of April they take
out and stop. Give the fishermen to the first of May up the river and
they would have some fishing, too.

Q. You say that that regulation should be extended up that river
through the several counties through which the river passes. Do you
think it would be a good thing to have restriction all the way?

A. The first of May, I would think so.

Q. Would you have that in the hands of the State rather than the
hands of the county?

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 263

A. Yes, have all regulations regarding fishing in the hands of the
State rather than the county.

Q. Don’t you think it would be a good thing to have shad nets taken
out by the first of April, in order to promote the industry?

A. That would not give the lower fishermen time to catch any shad

at all.
Q. Don’t the fish pass here before the first of April?

A. It is about April before the nets up the river catch anything to
amount to anything.

Q. You believe there ought to be a later time for the upper part of
the river than for the lower part of the river?

A. No; the people down the river will knock off voluntarily.

Q. In order to replenish the shad, don’t you think that we ought to
submit to a temporary inconvenience? Don’t you think it would be
better ?

A. I think the way to keep the catch up is to have a hatchery up the
river.

Q. Do you catch sturgeon ?

A, Yes.

Q. How many sturgeon have been caught in these waters this season?

A. Possibly seventy-five.

Q. There has been a very perceptible decrease of sturgeon in the past
five years?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you think that is due to being caught up 8o plentifully?

A. I think it is due to their catching in the shad nets the little
sturgeon. ;

Q. The shad nets you refer to; are they the menhaden ?

A. The drift nets down the river. The little sturgeon do not seem to
go up the river.

Q. Would it be possible to put these sturgeon back in the river before
they were killed?

A. Yes; I have taken out as many as ten or fifteen.

Q. Is that small fish you catch sturgeon ?

A. That is the question. I have always contended that these peggi-
nauls, as we call them, are not sturgeon, but are something like a stur-
geon. You catch one small sturgeon to probably a thousand of these
pegginauls. Why, one of those pegginauls never grow no larger and
never do get to be a big sturgeon. I know, because I’ve watched them.

Q. What do you think about mullets?

A. I have been paying six to eight cents for 1 1-8 inch mullets

which means five or six on a bunch.
Q. What is the length of these?

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

264 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. A 11-8 inch mullet is about six to eight inches long. We have
been paying eight cents for these, even before they were caught. I
think Mr. Yopp has some fish in his house that he paid three cents a
bunch for, and was sorry to take them at that. Still he is willing to
pay eight cents for 1 1-8 inch mullets.

Q. Where are these small mullets shipped to?

A. While 1 1-8 inch mullet is worth eight cents on our market,
wholesale, that class of mullets, with twelve or fourteen on a bunch, are
worth only three cents at other places. We are catching that kind of
fish with these little inch or 3-4 inch bar seines. I think we ought not
to have anything under 1 1-8 inch bar.

Q. What kind of law would you suggest to prevent the catching of
these little fish?

A. I don’t know as that is necessary. You can go out with 1 1-8
inch mesh seine and catch the small fish.

Q. If he can sell these mullets is not that an inducement to catch
them ? Suppose you, yourself, were subject to arrest for having these
in your possession, would you buy them?

A. I might take chances. I would measure every man’s fish before
I bought them.

Q. You think that it would be to the benefit of the industry to have
some regulation in regard to it?

A. In the mesh that the fish is caught with—yes. There will be
time in the winter when he will catch a big haul of small mullets with
a 11-8 inch seine. He can-not do it in hot weather.

Q. Do they die as rapidly in cold weather as they do in hot?

A. No; in the cold weather they go in the streams as thick as can be.

Q. Those that are not marketable—what do they do with them?

A. There is no chance of putting them back at any time. Whatever
a 11-8 inch seine will catch they will have to pull out. They compost
some and throw some away.

Q. Do you think it would be a good plan to have a law to make it a
misdemeanor to use an edible fish for fertilizer?

A. No; if he is caught, I think he ought to be utilized for something.

Q. Are there many black bass caught in the streams around here?

A. Very few. :

Q. Where do they go there—up Black River and Northeast River?

A. The rivers. We don’t have many in the sounds. Between here
and the mouth of the river.

Q. How about the trout?

A. We have not had very much catch of trout. It has been decreas-
ing. I would suggest that there be a Fish Commission appointed to
look out for this whole State and have a deputy Commissioner in every

at

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 265

county to strictly enforce the laws. He can watch out for the man who
catches the little fish.
MR. SHEPERD.

In regard to the clam question, I think the law we have is favorable
and that nine-tenths of the people who live on the sound would endorse
it. We can catch clams from the first of November to the first of
April, which gives us four months. My experience is that you catch
more small clams after Christmas than before Christmas, and I would
suggest something like they have in New York. I would suggest to have
a good law for New Hanover and Pender counties whereby you could
not catch a clam less than 1.1-8 inch. A clam is something that can be
assorted. If you leave it on the rock or shell of course it burrows and
goes in the ground, same as before. I have bought clams from catchers
that were barely larger than your thumb nail. Of course a barrel of
them, if left in the waters for as long as two years, one barrel would
make ten. Therefore, I think the real small clam less than 1 1-8 inch
should be left in the water, and it is against the clam industry for us to
use them. I think the regulations we have now are about as good as
can be, if enforced.

Q. Are the regulations in regard to the clam industry observed ?

A. Yes; pretty much. I have heard a little talk of some buying clams
and putting them down before the season is out. I am not aware of
any particular person. I don’t know but I would suggest that if we
were to have a Commissioner for the county that he be instructed to
see that that law was carried out for the clams as much so as the fish.
In regard to the shrimp, it is the same thing. Shrimp seines do more
damage to the fishing industry in our waters than any one thing we
have. I have no plans or ideas to suggest in that respect, only in the
shortening of the seines and have them inspected because some people
take advantage of shrimp seines to catch small fish.

Q. What do they do with these small fish that are not marketable?

A. Compost them, generally.

Q. Do you think that the clam could be best regulated by prescribing
that they shall not have them under 141-8 inch in length?

A. I think the way the law is now, the majority of the people would
endorse.

Q. Do you think it would be any advantage to have a closed season
from the first of March to the first of November?

A. I don’t think so. .The best thing to be done is to prohibit the
catch of real small clams.

Q. Do you think it would be an advantage to have a Board of Fisher-
ies similar to the Board of Agriculture, with power to make rules and

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266 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

regulations suitable for each county, and have a Commissioner and
Deputy Commissioners to enforce the law?

A. I think there should be a commission to enforce the State law,
giving that department power to regulate these matters.

Q. Is there anything else that you would like to suggest to the com-
mittee ?

A. Nothing that I know of.

CAPT. D. J. FERGUS.

I have thought of a few suggestions that I would offer this Honor-
able Committee. Regarding the law for regulating fish, it has been
suggested that there be measures as to the length of the fish. I have been
in the business thirty years. The last two years I have been in Wil-
mington shipping. “I have been called out of my bed all hours of the
night by the fishermen who had made a big haul and it was necessary for
me to come down to save the fish. Such a law regulating the size of fish
would mean a total loss to the fishermen. The only way to regulate the
fishing is to regulate the size of the mesh. The waters of New Hanover
County and Pender differ from any in the State of North Carolina for
the simple reason that we have one river in this county and no river in
Pender. The Cape Fear opens directly into the ocean. There is no
sound like the New and Neuse rivers run into, and the other rivers to
the northeast. In addition to that the sound waters of New Hanover
and Pender counties are in comparison to the waters of Pamlico and
those other large sounds, as a little pond to an inland sea. They contain
deep waters where fish permanently stay and inhabit. I have had
thirty years experience in the waters of New Hanover County. The
waters are shallow and the large ‘fish do not stay in them, and if the
fishermen are not allowed to catch the size of fish that inhabit these
waters they are simply out of business. A good many of the fishermen
of New Hanover County have only one or two acres of land and are
dependent upon the fishing of the river and ocean for their living.
Tf the size of the mesh is increased above 1 1-8 inches that puts the fish-
ermen of New Hanover County out of business. Every fall there are
any quantity of large mullets that pass this coast, but they run so far
out they can not be caught. Last fall when we considered the fishing
season almost a failure, there were thousands and thousands of bunches
physically out of reach of the seines. The fishing season in this county
is regulated by the winds. If the wind is favorable they will come in
by one tide and back out by the next. The bays along the sound hardly
average over three feet depth of water, and I have watched the bunch
fish-come in Masonboro Inlet and turn around and go out. If they get
to Masonboro Bay a few will break off and go up, and sometimes go

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 267

on up the other bays. If that bunch of fish is struck in Masonboro
channel they immediately turn and go back to sea. I would not ask an
unjust thing for the fishermen of New Hanover County, but they are
people worthy of consideration, and I make this statement that you
could not make a universal State law that would apply to the entire

’ State without detriment to the fishermen of New Hanover and Pender

counties.

Q. Don’t you think the State of North Carolina ought to pass general
laws with the idea of promoting the industry and give that Board power
to regulate the laws in the different counties?

A. The fishermen of New Hanover County are already taxed enough,
and if you have a Fish Commissioner of New Hanover Couity, he has
to be paid, and I would suggest in lieu of that that it be made a misde-
meanor, punishable by a fine of from $50 to $100 to fish a bar under
1 1-8 inch, one-half to go to the informer and the other one-half to the
educational fund. Then that would make the violator of that law be
punished for violating it and it would not punish a poor fisherman who
is innnocent.

Q. Did you ever hear of a man in New Hanover County being in-
dicted for violating the fish law?

A. Not that I know of. I think to compare them with other sections,
they are the most law-abiding fishermen in the State.

Q. How long have you been engaged in fishing?

A. Thirty years.

Q. And in that time you have never known of a man indicted for
fishing ?
A. No.

Q. In what way would the other fishermen regard a brother fisher-
man who informed on them?

A. It would not be necessary for a fisherman to inform on another.
These magistrates are very eager for cases.

Q. In what part of New Hanover County are you engaged in fishing?

A. At Masonboro. Regarding shad; I think the suggestion made by
Mr. Fail is one of the most practical I have heard. The proper place
to protect the shad is on their spawning ground. If you protect him
down here, what is the use if you let them go on up the river using
their seines and catching them on their spawning grounds?

Q. Why do they quit down here the first of April?

A. For the reason the fish packers encourage them to.

Q. Don’t you think those men up the stream are entitled to a little
consideration ?

A. Possibly, for in Pender County they catch more in April than in
any other month. If you would make it a universal State law to pro-

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

268 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

hibit the catching of them after the first of May, you would save the

shad.

Q. What proportion of the fish that you buy come from above Wil-
mington ?

A. I have not any nets up there. The dealers furnish the nets and
the men turn over the fish they catch to the dealers.

Q. Do you buy any other kind of fish than shad from above Wil-

mington ?
A. No.

CAPTAIN BUSSEY

I am a purse net fisherman. I am not interested in the food fish,
only to the extent that I think it ought to be a violation of the law to
catch food fish for fertilizer purposes.

Q. How long have you been engaged in purse net fishing ?

A. Thirty years.

Q. On what part of the coast?

A. From Maine to North Carolina.

Q. Will you explain what kind of net a purse net is?

A. It is similar to a tobacco pouch with the bottom out. It is a net
that encircles the fish with a puckering string in the bottom.

Q. How long a seine do you use on this coast ?

A. About 130 fathoms.

Q. And how deep is it?

A. About sixty feet deep.

Q. In what depth of water can you fish that net?

A. Any depth deeper than sixty feet.

Q. You can fish it in any place, under any circumstances, closer to
the shore than that?

‘A. We don’t aim to fish inside of sixty feet depth for this reason:
These nets are long and heavy, and on the bottom most anywhere there
are snags. Now these nets are very expensive, many of them costing
as much as $1,000 apiece. If they run against a snag in being fished too
close to the bottom they are liable to tear them up and thus it is not to
our advantage to fish in any shallower water than sixty feet.

It would be very difficult to purse it up in any event?

Yes.
Will you tell us what kind of fish you catch in that net?

Menhaden or fatbacks.
Do you ever catch any other fish ?

Very seldom. x
Do you ever mistake a school of some other fish, as mackerel, for

*

OeroPoPeoe

menhaden ?

 

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 269

A. Mackerel don’t school on this coast. On the coast of Florida they
use purse nets to catch mackerel, where they do school.

Q. Do you ever catch, mixed with the school of menhaden, other
schools of-fish ?

A. Sometimes, but very seldom.

Q. What kinds?

A. We sometimes catch a bluefish, a gray trout, a shark, or such fish
as feed on other fish.

Do you catch many of them?

No.

Have you ever known a fatback purse seine to catch them?

I have known them to catch them for market purposes.
What disposal do they make of them when they catch them ?
They always turn them out, so far as I know.

Have you ever known them to use food fish for fertilizer?
No. -

Q. Is there any reason to use them?

A. I should think not, when they are worth five times as much to
market.

Q. If. they caught them and brought them in, they would sell them
on the market?

A. Certainly.

Q. Why do they use only the fatback for fertilizer purposes ?

A. Because the fatback has more oil than any other fish, and oil is
the quality desired. We are now buying for our crew the mullets that
these gentlemen are catching to feed our men on, and paying eight or
ten cents a bunch for them. We have in our provision bill salt fish
and have no fish that we catch ourselves. I believe in the Chesapeake
Bay we did not average one mess of fish for the crew aboard the boat a
week. The United States Fish Commission, I think, when Dr. Collins
was at the head of it, put men on the different menhaden. boats from
Maine to Virginia and kept them there the three principal months in
the fishing season and the percentage was so small that the United
States government gave it up. Now the different States have taken it
up, and the State of Virginia has just passed on it.

Q. How long have you been fishing off the coast of North Carolina?

A. Seven or eight seasons.

Q. Can you tell us what the shipment amounts to in this factory here?

A. Two thousand tons of scrap.

Q. Do you buy any fish from any of the fishermen?

A. No.

Q. What would you suggest as to what laws we could pass to protect
the fishing in this State?

POrPOPOPOS

   

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270 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

A. Adopt the same as all other States have or are trying to do at
this time, that is, regulate the mesh. That seems to be the only way.

Q. What size would you say would be applicable to these waters ?

A. That would have to be left to the fishermen.

Q. Could you give us any suggestions about protecting oysters and
clams?

A. I was listening at the gentleman in reference to small clams. I
don’t think that has as much to do with the scarcity of clams as the
season to prohibit catching clams. I don’t think any fish should be
allowed to be caught at different seasons.

Q. You think there ought to be a closed season ?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you suggest what would be a proper season ?

A. No spawn should be allowed to be sold. If the State could pass a
law prohibiting the taking of spawn shad from the water at the season
,in which they spawn, I believe it would do a great deal towards build-
ing up the shad industry.

Q. How could you regulate that?

A. The United States government can do it by establishing hatch-
eries and have a law that all spawn fish are to go through that hatchery.
So far as my company is concerned we are willing to have a law for
the confiscation of property and imprisonment if we catch edible fish.

Q. Do you think it would be advisable to have a closed season in which
no fish should be caught?

A. That would work a hardship on the citizens. Catching the small
fish does not amount to half as much as destroying the spawn.

Q. Do you think that these nets used in the Cape Fear should be
taken out at an earlier date than is now prescribed by law?

A. No. Fish that migrate are to be caught by the citizens of any
section ,;where they can catch them. I don’t see how you can pass a
law for John Smith not to catch a fish at the mouth of the river and
let Peter Jones up the river catch it.

MR. J. H. HOLMES.

T don’t think we could fix a law to suit all men who eat shad out of
Cape Fear River and up as far as shad go. Sometimes the latter part
of May the people up in the little streams by Fayetteville begin to catch
the shad. There is only one way to help us with the shad business here,
and that is to quit for two or three years at the time—everybody. That
makes the fishermen and the shipper and the eater do without shad and
all fare alike. As far as the sturgeon is concerned I think it would be a
good idea not to fish for the sturgeon for a certain length of time.

ee en —— ————eE——————— — —

RARE TT fo ea avers i

 

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 271

Q. Are there many people about here engaged in sturgeon fishing?

A. No.

Q. How many of these cow sturgeon have been caught this season ?

A. I don’t suppose there has been over fifteen that had sixty pounds
of roe. There may be a lot of cow sturgeon caught that don’t have this
large roe.

Q. What proportion of the shad that you buy come from up the
river? Your fish come from the nets that you employ men to fish?

A.’ Yes, sir;

RESOLUTIONS.

It was moved that a vote of thanks be given to Colonel Morton for
his elegant reception to the committee.

A resolution of thanks to Mr. Morrison Divine for his generous offer
to place at the disposal of the committee his boat, for use in making a
trip to Southport and back, was introduced and carried.

SOUTHPORT MEETING.

Jury 24, 1909.

Meeting called to order and explained by Chairman.
Mr. C. Ed. Taylor was called upon to designate such men as in his
opinion could give practical ideas regarding the fishing interests in that

section.
MR, JOHN HOLDEN,

I have had experience in fishing for mullets. It is the only fishing
business that I have much experience in and I only have my experience
in the small rivers such as Lockwood’s Folly, which is down the coast
here about twelve miles. I have been following that business for about
thirty or thirty-five years. My experience in the mullet fishing is that
while we have been successful in catching a great many mullets we have
been more or less molested and injured by gill nets in and around our
inlets, Lockwood’s Folly, ete. Our river is a narrow one, and while the
mullets run this coast, always going westward, we have no mullets
going eastward in that season of the year, which is about four months.
While the mullets are running up the coast more or less of them are
running in small quantities. They go in at our small inlets and into
our deeper waters, where they locate. When they go in there they are
bunched to a great extent, and they are molested by gill nets around
the inlets, which break up, scatter, and run those fish off. Around
these inlets the men are in squads of from twenty to twenty-five in a
stand. These gill nets do not make much success close around the inlets
for the reason that there is a great deal of tide water and gill nets, in

— “ aaa
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272 _ THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

the daytime especially, do not have much success in catching mullets.
Also they do not have much success at night in catching the mullets.
While these crowds of men are located there for weeks, when the mullets
do gather up close around the mouths of the inlets and those gill nets
get in their day and night scatteration, and while they don’t catch any
to amount to anything they drive them out.

Q. Do you mean they drive them back and don’t let them run out?

A. No; they run them out in a scattering way.

Q. What kind of nets do you use?

A, We use different kinds. I don’t use gill nets myself. I use haul
seines.

Q. What mesh?

A. One and one-eighth bar.

Q. What length?

A. L use two seines, one about 230 yards and another about 400 yards.

“ Q. Do you use these altogether?

A. We use the bigger seine for fish that run wider off and the
smaller seines for fish running closer to the beach.

Q. Is there any law in this county prescribing the length of the seine
or the size of the mesh?

A. Not that I know, but I have understood there is a law in regard
to the size of the mesh. No law as I ever heard of regarding the length
of seine.

Q. What is your opinion as to the proper size of the mesh?

A. My opinion is that there should be no net fished less than 1 1-8

mesh.
Q. Do the gill net fishermen obey the law in regard to the size of the

net ?

A. I could not say. I have not seen any gill nets fished under 1 1-8
inch. -

Q. Do you fishermen tar your nets?

A. No.

Q. Do any of them down that way tar their nets?

A. I think not.

Q. How is the supply of fish. Is there any perceptible decrease in
the past few years?

A. There has been for three years.

Q. What per cent would you say that decrease amounts to?
- A. For the last three years I think it has been a decrease of from

one-half to two-thirds.
Q. To what do you ascribe that decrease?
A. I think that there are different reasons.
Q. You speak of the mullet fishing alone?

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 273

A. Yes; I am speaking of the mullet interests ‘alone. My judgment
is that for the past two falls we have had a good deal of storms and
windy weather. Last fall we had floods and rain in this section, and
farther down my understanding is that that had something to de ‘nthe
carrying the mullets to sea. Another reason is generally thought by
the people is that the pogy or fatback fishing is more or less injurious
to the mullet fishing on this coast.

Q. In what way is it injurious?

A. Through and by the slime. When the slime is pumped from the
boats in which they have the fatbacks it has been seen that it makes
the other fish turn back, and I have heard it said by some that it was
believed or thought it was one cause for the fish not locating or settling
or remaining in Cape Fear River as heretofore was on account of the
scent from the factory.

Mr. Taylor :—There is a law in this county prohibiting the menhaden
men from pumping the bloody water or slime out amongst the fisheries.

Q. How long have the menhaden fisheries been carried on here?

A. Perhaps six or eight years.

Q. What is your idea about whether that law has been enforced?
Have the fish factory men observed that law?

A. According to my understanding, they have not.

Q. Have you any knowledge of your own that they have not?
A. No; I do not know.

Q. To your knowledge have they pumped the water from their fish
banks on the surface of the sea?
Wash Holden:—I could not say directly, but reports say they do.

The fact is I am not acquainted well enough with the steamers to know
when they are pumping and when not.

Q. Has anybody ever been indicted in this county for violation of
the fish law?

A. I have understood so.

Q. Was he convicted ?

A. Two years.

Q. What was he charged with?

A Purse-seining within the prohibited limits. In regard to the law
being observed within the distance the law requires in pumping out the
slime, it is the hardest matter in the world for any one to stand on the
shore and tell what distance she is from the shore. ;

Q. We understand that there is no special complaint from the mullet
fishermen on that score?

A. Not that I have ever heard of on my shores.
Q. Is there anything that you could suggest to the committee that

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274 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

would improve your fishing in any way so as to promote the fishing
industry ?

A. I hardly know what to say, for the reason I don’t want to say
anything that will conflict with anybody or will give anybody a reason
to believe that I want to monopolize or take any action against the
masses of the people as a whole. My opinion might be different from
somebody else’s in regard to the fishing business.

Q. You have advanced the idea that your fisheries are bothered some
because the gill net fishermen disturb the fish when they get in. Please
explain yourself on that.

A. Our rivers are narrow about the inlets. My best understanding
and experience is that there has never been any successful fishing done
with gill nets on and around these inlets, while we have been seriously
damaged by the gill nets inside and outside of the channel, and also just
on the inside of the beach, where the mullets would gather and go out
where we could get them. At the same time, these gill nets will come in
and run through them and amongst them and get only a small amount
of them, and of course we are debarred from the fish getting out to sea
in the proper way.

Q. How close to these inlets would you recommend that the gill nets
be allowed to be fished ?

A. A mile or a mile and a half distance would take up these narrow
deep channels and would enter the shallow, wider water where these gill
nets can be fished.

Q. Don’t you think that at Lockwood’s Folly, if the law was observed
that one-half mile would be adequate?

A. I think one-half a mile on the water there would be so short and
especially where this class of people are fishing night as well as day,
and if a man wants to take advantage he will lap over a little anyhow,
and if he laps he has not left you much remainder.

Q. Suppose you had that area staked out by government buoys and
had inspectors there to see that the law was enforced, would there be
any trouble?

A. I think any distance would be a help. I think if the mullets only
had a small space to mill and settle and not be molested, it would help
some.

Q. Suppose you had this area staked off and it was against the law
to fish there, would they still fish?

A. I would suppose so, to some extent.

Q. If they were to use the gill nets where they ought not to, would
you inform on them?

A. I think I would.

Q. Would the other fishermen ?

A. Some would and some would not.

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 275

Q. Why are these gill nets fished in the region you object to, if they
catch nothing?

A. I have had the experience of parties going into unreasonable
measures in the way of buying long gill nets and fishing them around
the point of my beach, fishing over season and in season, and not get-
ting anything to pay them. At the end of a season they caught them up
and hauled them out and got what they could for them.

Q. Do you believe that they do that maliciously and without any
benefit accruing to themselves?

A. Yes.

Q. Where were these men from ?

A. They were principally from my neighborhood.

Q. What is the length of Lockwood’s Folly?

A. Up to the head of the shipping point it is said to be twenty-five
miles from the bar.

Q. Is there fishing all the way up that river?

A: Yes.

Q. Where do you market the fish that you catch in these waters?

A. Wilmington, principally.

Q. What would you say was the value of the fish caught here in one
season ?

A. I can give the amount of the best season I have had. I think I
caught about 1,800. barrels. This has been some six or seven years
ago. We only get about $4.72 a barrel.

Are you the largest fisherman in these waters?

I generally catch about as many as anybody else around here.
Have you any experience in fishing here in the Cape Fear River?
No.

Have you-any stake nets?

None. I never used a stake net in my life.

Do you catch any sturgeon in these waters?

Not that I know of.

e MR. WASH HOLDEN.

POPOPOPS

Another large mullet fisherman of about twenty or twenty-five years
experience.

Q. What recommendation have you to make to the committee that,
in your opinion, would increase the supply of mullets and let them get
to a larger size before they are caught?

A. I don’t know. TI have thought that the fish raise about every
eighteen or twenty years. I know when I was a small boy there were
no fish on the coast. Older people said they used to catch lots of fish
and could not imagine where the fish had gone. Pretty soon after that
we began to catch small fish, and then we began to catch a little larger.

Se

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

276 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN. NORTH CAROLINA

For the last thee or four years we have not caught many fish, but I see
lots of small ones in the waters. I do not think those little fish ought to
be disturbed.

Q. Could they get through a 1 1-8 mesh all right?

A. Yes.

Q. Would they be disturbed on the inside?

A. No; I think not.

Q. What is your idea of the gill net fishing around the inlet?

A. I can not think so. I fish right close to the inlet there, and it has
always been my motto that while I fished on the outside I would not
hurt those that fished on the inside.

Q. Do you think it is detrimental to have the large seines on the
outside ?

A. Yes; they run right by me.

Q. The fish run westward from you?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you any recommendations that you would like to make in
regard to legislation ?

A. I don’t know that I have. I know that lots of the poor class of
the people who live along the coast have got their living out of the gill
nets all their days, and have made a great deal of money at it.

Did I understand that they raised every eighteen years?

Yes. I do not know these things, but that is my opinion of it.
What kind of net do you fish?

I fish a seine. One of my seines is 452 yards and the other is 400.
Is there any law in this county prescribing the length of the nets?
Not that I have heard of.

. Are there any men in your neighborhood fishing longer seines
than you fish?

A. No; I have never heard of any longer.

Q. How is your catch of fish this year, compared with that of last
year?

A. Since this year came in our fishing season has not been good.
Our last catch of fish was no account at all; did not pay expenses.

Q. Have you ever had previous years in which you made as poor a
catch?

A. Yes, when I was a small boy it was just as poor for six or eight
years.

Q. Are there any bluefish caught off your coast?

A. We catch a few occasionally. We do not try to make anything at
that.

Q. Was there ever a time when bluefishing was profitable in this sec-
tion ?

OPorPore

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 277

Not that I can say. I have caught very few.
How is it with the trout?
It seems to be difficult to get a trout. 5
What, in your opinion, is the proper size net?
One and one-eighth inch mesh.
What would you think of a law combining the fish and oyster in-
terests, creating a Bureau of Fisheries, similar to the Department of
Agriculture, having a general law for the entire State and giving the
Board power to make rules and regulations suitable for each county ¢
A. My answer to that is that I do not know that I am able to answer
that question.
Q. Are there any persons engaged in catching oysters or clams down
on your waters?
A. In the winter season, yes.
Q. Can you give us an estimate of the number of bushels of clams
shipped from your section in any one season?
A. I could have a couple of years ago, but since that I have lost
sight of it. There have been such a few caught.
Have the clams decreased as well as the fish?
Yes.
How is it with the oysters?
They have decreased to some extent.
Are there any persons engaged in planting oyster gardens?
No.
Has anybody ever given any attention to oyster culture?
No.
Do they catch oysters to ship or just for their own supply?
. They have been catching oysters there during the winter before
this last. They caught a great many oysters for canning.
Q. Was that canning factory still in operation during the past
season ¢
A. No. They did not work at that factory this last season.
Q. Is the supply of oysters very materially decreased in that section ?
A. Yes.
Q. You catch altogether the coon oyster?
A. Yes; we can not get anything else, much. We have been having

some right smart storms and these oyster creeks are just inside of the
main blowing beach. These blowing beaches are a great deal bleaker
than they used to be. The sands blow over and kill a lot of oysters.
The clam catchers have killed the clams.

Q. Do you think that there ought to be a law passed saying that no
clams should be caught less than a certain width across the shell?

A. I think that the time of catching clams ought to be shortened.

OPOoPOoP

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278 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. What time would you suggest ?
A. I think one and a half or two months during the winter season
would-be enough.

@. You don’t think they ought to have a season of more than two
months in which to catch them?

A. I do not.

Q. How is the size of the mullets caught now, compared with those
caught a few years ago?

A’ Last fall I must have caught in manner none at all. What I
caught were very small. What I caught a year or two ago were very
large.

Q. Were there any large mullets caught in the last year or two?
A. Very few.

MR. R. W. DAVIS.

How long have you been engaged in fishing?
Thirty-five years.
At what point do you do your fishing?
I fish in the river from the bar and the little inlets.
What kind of nets do you use?
I use gill nets—drift gill nets.
What kind of fish do you catch, principally ?
A. I catch more mullets than anything else. I catch all sorts at the
different seasons of the year.

Q. What has been your observation—has the catch of mullets in-
creased or decreased in the past five years?

A. The last two years we have had very few mullets. Three years
ago there was a large quantity of them. The weather has a good deal
to do with that; a strong easterly wind makes them keep on by.

Q. You think the lack of fish during the past two years has been due
to nature, and not to the fishermen ?

A. We see them at sea, but they do not come close enough for us to
catch them.

Q. Do you think the setting of stake nets in the rivers interferes with,
the catch of fish?

A. They say so, with shad and such like. I know they destroy the
roe shad.

Q. What proportion of the shad that are caught and sold in the
market are caught in the gill nets?

A. I do not know.

Q. Do you catch bluefish ?
A. Very few.

OPOPOPOS

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THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 279

Q. Was there ever a time when many bluefish were caught in these
waters ¢

A. None to my recollection.

Q. Do they catch many croakers?

A. We catch a good many croakers.

Q. Is the catch of croakers as large as it was a few years ago?

A. I don’t think so.

Q. To what do you ascribe that?

A. I don’t know.

Q. What size mesh do you think ought to be fished in these waters?

A. I think 1 1-4 inch bar is small enough. That is as small as we
use.

Q. Is that small enough to catch the mullets that inhabit these
waters?

A. Yes; as small as there is any sale for.

Q. Are the mullets caught here as small as they were a few years
ago?

A. I do not know. It is according to the season of the year. A
small run of fish comes early in August and then the larger ones come
and later on in the winter they have what they call the “frost” mullets.

Q. During the past ten years have you had a good catch of mullets
whenever the weather was favorable?

A. I think so. Three years ago there were as many mullets caught

here as ever I knew of, in my recollection.
Q. Any suggestion you wish to make as to a closed season when no

fishing should be allowed?

A. I don’t think so.

Q. How do you know they were caught in the pound nets?

A. I have seen them in the pound nets.

Q. Are any pound nets used in your county now?

A. No.

Q. Are any used on the New Hanover side of the Cape Fear?

A. I do not know.

MR. WILLIAM WEEKS.

Q. What suggestions have you to make to us whereby the fishing in-
terests of your county might be improved?

A. I do not think you could give any better satisfaction than to leave
it as it is now. Everybody seems to be getting on peaceably and quiet,
and I do not see any difference in the fishing now than there was forty
years ago. If we have storms in the fall of the year it makes a bad
time for mullet fishing. They are driven off shore. I do not believe in
catching the small fish. I believe there ought to be a limit in the size

of the mesh.

 

£
ona eee eee eee a es

I
‘

 

 
  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

280 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Do you think limiting the size of the mesh is preferable to limit-
ing the size of the fish caught?

A. I think 1 1-8 inch mesh would be small enough.

Q. That applies to the gill nets, but would not 1 1-8 net catch a
great many fish smaller than 1 1-8 inch fish?

A. You could not regulate the size of fish. If it was 1 1-8 inch mesh
anything smaller than that would go through it. One and one-eighth
inch is a marketable fish. As a rule a fish’s head is smaller than his
body, and when the fish goes in and gills he is held.

Q. Is there no way to liberate these fish before they die?

A. No. I will admit that 1 1-8 inch would haul up a lot of small fish.

Q. What becomes of those that are unsalable?

A. They are either thrown away or used for compost.

Q. In your opinion is that not one reason of the scarcity of fish in
these waters?

A. I suppose so.

Q. Are there more men fishing for mullets than there were ten years
ago?

A. I think not. I see but very little difference in the fishing now
from what it was twenty-five or thirty years ago.

Q. You think the aggregate amount of fish caught is greater than it
was ten years ago?

A. Yes; more nets are fished, and I think possibly five times as many
fish are caught.

Q. What would you think of a law creating a Fish and Oyster
Bureau, placing it under a Commissioner and Board of Directors, and
let them regulate the conditions existing in each county?

A. My observation is that we get along very quietly and peaceably
now in the fishing industry, and if you have such a commission as that
there would be somebody in the court-house all the time reporting some-
body.

Q. Is the law being violated in this county?

A. I don’t think so.

Q. What would cause them to violate the law?

A. If they were to make any stringent law making certain limits of
course the fishermen would go over those points, and by that means
somebody would be watching and soon it would be in the courts.

Q. Is it your observation that those that live down at the mouth of
the river and inlet are pretty well satisfied with the conditions?

A. I think so. When you legislate against the gill net fisheries you

cause a loss to possibly a hundred men that are running gill nets.
Q. Do you think it is unddvisable to have a law limiting the distance
from the inlet in which they can fish?

a®

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 281

A. I do. I think you ought to let them get fish wherever they can
catch them.

Q. Is it your observation that fishing in and near the inlets frightens
the fish and make them turn away?

A. I never heard of such. I know they fish right in this bay every
night and every day and there is not a day but what they come.

Q. Do you think it would be a good idea not to allow any fishing in
the inlet?

A. Yes; I think it would.

Q. How is the territory regulated at the inlet? If a man puts his
net in there, how close can another man get to him?

A. You fish right alongside of him, unless he owns the land, like Mr.
Holden.

Q. If you had your net down there this gentleman could come and
fish right alongside of you?

A. Yes.

Q. Have you had any experience in shad fishing?

A. I had a little experience last winter. Me and my son-in-law had
a drop net, but it was not in the river.

Q. Were you successful with that? You are referring to what you
call white shad.

A. Not very. We caught some shad, but not as many as we ought
to have caught.

Q. What is your opinion as to removing stake nets from the river?
Do you think that would be beneficial ?

A. I have heard it said there are a good many fish destroyed by the
stake nets. ‘They don’t tend them regularly and when the tide comes
in and drives the fish across them it causes them to fall on the bottom,
where they die.

Q! Are there any sturgeon caught in these waters?

A. Every now and then you will hear of some one catching them in a
shad net up the river. I remember fifteen or eighteen years ago I
counted fifty-some-odd taken out of the water in less than an hour.
Since that time it is only once in a while that you will see one.

Q. Do they fish in this part of the river for sturgeon ?

A. Not here. I don’t think any one has fished for sturgeon in this
part of the river for twenty years. :

Q. Do you think that the fishing for menhaden has had any effect,
injurious or otherwise, upon the other fishing?

A. I do not think so.

Q. Are there any persons engaged in the menhaden fishing except
this company ?

A. No.

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

282 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Q. Do many persons catch menhaden and sell to that fishery?
A. There are in season maybe half a dozen nets fished on this shore.
Q. Are there persons specially engaged in shad fishing?

Q. Is there a law prescribing the length of net in these waters?
A. I think so, but we get around that by tying two nets together.
Q. Would you not call that evading the law?

A. I think so.

Q. Has any one ever been indicted for fishing the gill net?

A. I never heard of any one being indicted.

Q. Are the nets, as fished now, too long?

A. They are twice as long as the law permits.

MR. JOHN R. NEWTON.

Q. How long have you been engaged in fishing?

A. I never made a business of it. I have been fishing about thirty
years when I had nothing else to do.

Q. How does the supply of fish today compare with what it was ten
years ago?

A. Not so many.

Q. To what do you attribute it?

A. The mullet fishing is regulated by weather conditions, storms, ete.

Q. Didn’t you always have these storms?

A. Yes:

Q. Why would a storm today run them back more than when you
began ?

A. I didn’t pay as much attention to them before.

Q. What is the proper size mesh to use in gill nets?

A. I use 1 1-4 inch bar and no less for gill nets. I do not fish any
drag seines at all.

Q. In your opinion, is that the proper size?

A. If you want more fish you must turn off small ones and you can-
not free fish if you catch them in small mesh nets.

Q. What mesh do the drag nets use?

A. One and one-eighth inch.

Q. How about the gill net?

A. The gill nets should be 1 1-4 inch bar.

Q. Is this net being used or is a smaller net being used by the fisher-
men around here for other purposes?

A. Only for catching shrimp.

Q. A fish net of that size should not be used around the waters here?

A. By no means if you want to save the smaller fish.

a

 

   

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 283

Q. What is your idea about purse seining around the waters of the
river ?

A. They will catch up the small fish.

Q. For that reason you would oppose it?

A..-Yes,

Q. In fishing for menhaden you rarely catch any other fish ?

A. They catch about as many fish as they can eat on the boat.

Q. Do they do much shrimping in this neighborhood ¢

A. Very little.

Q. Do they do any for market?

A. Very little.

Q. What information can you give us about the oyster?

A. None at all.

Q. Do you take any interest in the clam business?

A. We get a few clams here, maybe 200 or 300 bushels a season.

Q. What about the white shad fishing?

A. Lots of nets are fished for them. Some seasons they catch a good
many. .

Q. What is your observation; has there been any material difference
in the catch of shad in these waters for the past six or eight years?

A. Not that I know of.

CAPTAIN WATTS.

I can tell you something about mullets for the last twenty-seven
years. My experience is that weather conditions affect mullet fishing.
If it is a good season they will come; the storm drives them off shore.
On the whole, I see no decrease. Last year there were few here that
passed on the inside; plenty on the outside.

Q. You think that was owing to the weather conditions?

A. Ido. A strong easterly wind keeps them going on the outside.

Q. What size mesh would you recommend ?

A. I think for the protection of fish, nothing smaller than 1 1-4 bar
should be allowed to be fished on the beaches. I think 1 1-4 inch is
small enough for gill nets.

Q. If they were to increase the size of the net from 1 1-8 to 1 1-4
would that increase permit some of the large ones to pass through that
they were entitled to catch?

A. That would let through 1 1-4 inch mullets. You know mullets
drown. If he gets his head in there he will gill and there is no chance
of letting him out alive.

Q. What proportion of fish of the size you indicate do they eatch ?

A. One in ten.

Q. For the best interest of the fish industry, what size mesh would
you recommend ¢

             

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

284 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

. One and one-fourth inch bar.

Have you had any experience in shad fishing?

No.

What has been your observation in regard to bluefish ?

We never have any bluefish to amount to anything on this coast.
How about the mackerel on this coast?

We have some Spanish mackerel, but nobody catches them.
What other fish are caught here for market besides the mullets.
All kinds of salt water fish except bluefish and mackerel.

POPOPOPO>

MR, WASH HOLDEN.

Q. What is your idea about the size of the mesh?

A. If I were confined to 1 1-4 inch bar I would have to quit fishing.
It is generally said by everybody that knows anything about this coast
that the majority of the large mullets come around this cape, while the
smaller mullets get in through the creeks this side of New Inlet. A
1 1-2 inch mullet will go through a 1 1-8 inch mesh. A mullet about
that length is about as small as we ever get, and as far as the fish
being dragged up on the beach I have never seen it. I would suppose
an inch and a quarter mullet would weigh probably a pound and a half
and would be a salable fish. °

Q. Do you know anything about sturgeon fishing?
A. No.

A vote was submitted by the Chairman to the meeting as to size of
mesh that should be used, with the following result :

*Ehoee Savoring 14. Wich HOS ie eis aed Mele iene SR 3
TROSG TAVOVIES: 146: INC INGE stv sin aiuto dss ood had oh db oa aee 5

MR. MORRISON DIVINE,

I would like to say in answer to statement made by Mr. Holden rela-
tive to the pumping of the blood and the slime from the menhaden
boats, that I overheard Captain George and Captain Bussels here say
that it is their observation that it acts as a lure and draws the fish in-
stead of driving them away. If that is the case it is beneficial rather
than detrimental. It is also a logical conclusion that as the bluefish
and mullet are both cannibal fish they will certainly consume the slime
and the blood.

CAPTAIN BUSSELS,

It is a fact that I have been approached by several citizens in this
county and made offers for the privilege of hauling seines along by the
factory. It is a fact that menhaden are used as bait along the Atlantic
coast to catch bluefish. I have seen bluefish and others follow menhaden

 

 

     

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 285

boats for miles to eat the slime from the boats. I never was more sur-
prised in my life than I was to know that such a law was passed by a
man in this county.

Q. Is it any trouble for the fishermen to control the discharge?

A. Of course it is a. trouble to have it done, and almost an impossi-
bility.

Q. Then you can not observe that law?

A. I can not observe that law.

MR. HOLDEN.

Q. What is your observation as to the slime and blood that is pumped
out ?

A. You take any kind of what we call bottom fish, as the bluefish,
ete., they feed on fish or on scrap. You can put any scrap of fish or
shrimp on the hook and you can catch them, but you never have known
any one can do that to catch a mullet, because he does not bite anything.
When we make a haul on our shores to catch mullets and the tide is ris-
ing and the slime comes up on the shore, if the tide does not wash off
the slime whenever another school of mullets come up they flash at once.
Whenever you go.in with a basket of mullets that are bloody, they will
flash that minute, and are gone. They will not go where there is any

bloody water.
Mr. Peterson:—Mullets won’t go anywhere there is bloody water.

Mr. Wash Holden:—Catfish and bluefish and bottom fish all like
bloody water, but the mullets will run from bloody water.

’
CAPTAIN BUSSELS.

Q. What is the distance these haul seines extend from the shore to
catch mullets? ie

A. I do not think those nets can go out more than 450 yards. There
is no menhaden fish steamer that can get within 400 yards of the North
Carolina coast anywhere. Any slime on the water will go according to
the wind. It may be put a quarter of a mile off shore, but would go to
the shore if the current is set that way, and it looks like a streak half

a mile off shore.
CAPTAIN DIVINE.

I have not much knowledge of fishing, and what I gather is from re-
marks made here. I do not think Captain Bussels intended to convey
the idea that he intended to evade the law. The idea in pumping out the
ship is to get the water out, and as menhaden are composed of about 70
per cent of water and oil, in getting rid of this you would naturally
have a great deal of slime. It is necessary to get rid of this for the safety
of the boat, so that it is a matter of self-preservation, more or less.

               

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

286 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

CAPTAIN BUSSELS.

I did not mean to say that I do not propose to observe the law. 1
did not know it was a law until: today.

Mr. M. C. Guthrie recommends that a law be passed prohibiting the
taking or destroying of turtle eggs.

MEETING HELD ON STEAMER COMPTON.

JuLty 24, 1909.

JUDGE GRAHAM.

Mr. Chairman:—It may be difficult to get the committee together after we
arrive at the city of Wilmington in the short time there will be between the
arrival of the boat and the departure of the train and, because the members
may have business to attend to, and I, therefore, would like to say a word

+ before we finally break up for this, our last meeting on the itinerary. I
was very much impressed last winter when the resolution was introduced
into the House of Representatives with the suggestion in it asking the Bureau
of Fisheries at Washington to detail one of its staff to accompany this com-
mittee as one of its members, participate in its deliberations, to make sug-
gestions and give advice with a view to promoting the fishing industry of
North Carolina, and I have been confirmed in that opinion that it would be
well for the State of North Carolina, and especially for the individual mem-
bers of the committee. I had'no idea, however, that they would send to us a
gentleman occupying as high a position in the Bureau of Fisheries as the
one who was selected, and, not having the pleasure of a personal acquaint-
ance with him, did I have any conception of the ability of the fepresentative
and his many endearing qualities of head and heart which have done so
much to render these meetings ones of sincere pleasure from beginning to
end, and I wish on behalf of the committee to express our most heartfelt
appreciation of the services rendered to this committee by Dr. H. F. Moore,
of Washington, City, and member of the Bureau of Fisheries, and to assure
him of the great value of the services he has rendered to the committee and
to the State of North Carolina, by his unfailing courtesy, by his clear and
intelligent description of the fishing industry not only in our own State but
in waters elsewhere, and to extend the thanks of this committee to him for
his presence with us and for the services that he has rendered us. If he
were not here I would say something about him. I want a record made of
this at this time, so that when we make our report to the Legislature of
North Carolina we can, in a feeble way, express our estimate of the services
rendered to the State by Dr. Moore, and I therefore move that the thanks
of this committee be extended to him for his able assistance and his unfailing
courtesy to every member of the committee, and to express our appreciation
of the large part he has had in rendering this mission so successful and so
pleasant.

Senator Travis:—I wish to heartily endorse all that Judge Graham has so
well said in respect to Dr. Moore in so far as his duties pertained to the Fish
Commission; but in respect to certain matters personal between he and I, that

 

SIRE RO OES RR 2h PS Ra a Gee 5: ek HSE CRN AE meas att

“4

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 287

are well understood between us, we should distinctly record it that they are
not embraced in this meeting.

Mr. Currie:—What I said to Dr. Moore the other day I want to repeat that
there was a “woe” pronounced against him in the Bible, and he seemed to think
he was going to meet with a censure; but I told him, “Woe unto you when all
men speak well of you.” Every member of our committee and everybody with
whom we have had anything to do, ladies and gentlemen of our party from
the beginning to the end, have all expressed their gratification and the pleas-
ure that they have had in knowing Dr. Moore, and in their recollections of
this trip, when they turn over the leaves of memory in which they have had
so many pleasant recollections, there will hardly be a page but what Dr.
Moore will be connected with it. I can say to Dr. Moore that, in connection
with the State, that hereafter if it will be our pleasure to have Dr. Moore or
any one else with us, that he will come willingly to this old State. I will
say, while on my feet, that we have been on the shore and on the sea, on the
sound and on the river, that we may never meet again on a mission of this
sort, and I trust we may all land on the shining shore where there will be
no wave of trouble.

Governor Newland :—The chairman desires to add his hearty endorsement to
everything that has been said concerning Dr. Moore, and I, perhaps, am the
only member of this party who has a personal grievance against the Doctor;
but in a calm and deliberate consideration of the situation I have come to the
conclusion that in his shoes I would have done the same thing and, therefore,
in parting I want to say that I love you like a brother.

Dr. Moore:—1 wish that I could fittingly respond to the very kind expres-
sions to which you have just given voice, but I have always found that Tam
inarticulate where my deeper feelings are engaged.

I came among you a stranger to all but two of you. Two I met before
under very pleasant conditions in the line of duty. The rest of you I had
never seen. From the very beginning you received me with the utmost
kindness and courtesy; you took every pains to make me feel at home; and
your kind treatment has continued to the present time. I have served with
a number of committees in boats at various times in the course of my con-
nection with the Bureau of Fisheries, but I have never served with any
which has given me such supreme satisfaction in every respect as with this
committee. I can say, without any flattery and in the sincerest manner,
that this committee and its secretaries are the finest body of men and
women I have ever been called to be associated with for such a length of
time. I want to thank you heartily for what you have said in regard to my
personal relations to you. So far as my official duties were concerned, they
are no more than I should have rendered. I will say for the Bureau of
Fisheries that it has a very keen interest in what North Carolina is doing.
As I had said before, I think you are doing things in the right way and that
you are fully in earnest, and if at any time the Bureau can render any
service, if you but make it known, it will be rendered, if possible. In re-
spect to the hope expressed here that I shall have an opportunity in the
future to serve with you again, I am looking forward to the spring, and I
hope that at that time I will be included in the party which is to make a
journey, and I can assure you it will give me the heartiest satisfaction to
meet with you. Then, collectively and individually, I hope I shall have many
opportunities of meeting you all.

 

 
   

 

 

 

 

 

 

288 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Judge Graham :—I think that we, as representing the State, ought to express
to the Bureau of Fisheries something of our appreciation of the interest that
they have taken in this matter, as shown in their selection of Dr. Moore to
represent them on this mission, and I, therefore, move that the chairman of the
committee be requested to write a letter to the Bureau of Fisheries, expressing
the appreciation of this committee on behalf of our State for the valuable
services that Dr. Moore has rendered the State of North Carolina and of the
pleasure he has given us individually.

Motion passed.

Governor Newland:—I want to say on my own behalf that I feel I owe this
committee something for the uniformly kind and courteous treatment they

=

have given me as chairman, and that I would be less than human if I did not ¥

express to them in this meeting my hearty appreciation of the courtesies and
consideration rendered me. I do not know what will be the result of our in-
vestigations. I am satisfied that each and every one has been in earnest, and I
can but hope that good results will come from this investigation. At any rate,
whether the State receives any good from it or not, I want to say that I have,
physically and mentally. I have seen a part of the State that I have never
seen before; my views in a measure have been broadened; and I want to
say it is the most delightful trip it has ever been my fortune to have, and it
is owing to the kindness and courtesy of this committee.

RESOLUTIONS,

Resolved, That the thanks of this committee be tendered Mr. Morrison
Divine for the use of the boat Compton for making the trip from Wilming-
ton to Southport and return, and to Captain Bussell for the many courtesies
extended by him during that trip.

Resolved, further, That the thanks of the committee be tendered to the
citizens of Wilmington who accompanied us on such trip and contributed so
much to our pleasure and entertainment.

And we desire to renew our expressions of appreciation of the many kind-
nesses and courtesies of Col. Geo. L. Morton shown us during our stay in the
city of Wilmington and on the trip to Southport.

Mr. Travis:—Now, as a little matter of business, in respect to our spring
trip, I would suggest that we take into consideration the fact that we want to
visit the different waters during the fishing season in each county, and as the
fishing season begins earlier in this section than in the other sections, I think
our trip had better begin in the fishing season of these waters and let it pro-
gress up the sound so that we will be in the waters during the fishing season of
each locality, and I would suggest to Dr. Pratt, if practicable, we will start
from the home of our Cumberland friend.

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 289

1910 TRIP OF INVESTIGATION

The second trip was made by part of the committee in March, 1910,
when the committee visited the fishermen while they were actually en-
gaged at their work.

The following members of the committee were at Wilmington March
14, 1910: A. W. Graham, R. A. Doughion, J. H. Currie, Dr. H. F.
Moore, and Joseph Hyde Pratt. The committee were accompanied
by Mr. E. H. Baker, of Raleigh, as stenographer.

The first trip was down the Cape Fear River, where the methods of
catching and marketing the fish were closely observed. The fish markets
of Wilmington were also inspected and information obtained regarding
the size and value of fish marketed. The next stop was at Morehead
City, where the fish markets were inspected. The Oyster Commission-
er’s boat, the Atlantic, carried the committee from Morehead City
through Beaufort Harbor, Core Sound, and up Neuse River to New
Bern, stopping en route at the Beaufort Laboratory, where the commit-
tee had an opportunity to inspect and eat some oysters taken from sev-
eral of the beds that had been planted by the North Carolina Geological
and Economie Survey. At the east end of Core Sound, where the night
was spent, the location of natural and planted oyster bottoms was ob-
served.

At New Bern the markets were inspected and considerable informa-
tion was obtained from fishermen who brought their fish to market on
that day. From New Bern to Washington the trip was made over the
Norfolk Southern Railroad. At Washington the committee were met
by Mr. T. S. Meekins, with the Fish Commission boat, Gretchen. After
inspecting the fish markets at Washington the committee was taken
down Pamlico River and up Pungo River to Belhaven, where they spent
Sunday. From Belhaven the committee crossed Pamlico Sound to Hat-
teras, having an opportunity there to study the location of nets and
methods of fishing same in Hyde County and around Hatteras Inlet.
The county line between Hyde and Dare counties passes through the
center of Hatteras Inlet. On the Dare side the nets were set in accord-
ance with the law, this county being under the Fish Commission, while
on the Hyde County side of the line they were not. While en route
from Hatteras to Manteo, Roanoke Island, the committee had a splen-
did opportunity to study conditions around Stumpy Point, the Ten Mile
Limit, Roanoke Island, and New Inlet. The conditions in Albemarle
Sound were studied while en route from Manteo to Edenton. At a num-
ber of places stops were made to enable the members of the committee

19

   

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

290 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

to observe the methods of fishing pound and gill nets and seines. The
conditions on Chowan River were also investigated.

OTHER MEETINGS OF COMMITTEE.

During the latter part of the year 1910 several meetings of the com-
mittee were held in Raleigh in preparing its report. Several drafts
were made and each member had an opportunity of going over these
carefully. The report was finally unanimously adopted by the commit-
tee and sent to the Legislature, the report being introduced in the House
by Mr. Doughton as House Bill No. 293. The bill was thoroughly dis-
cussed at joint meetings of the House and Senate committees on fish
which in turn appointed a subcommittee to draft a substitute bill that
would embody the changes that the joint committees considered should
be made. This bill was drafted, submitted to the members of the Legis-
lative Fish Committee of the General Assembly of 1911 and satsied

them as a compromise bill, as it 1
; was endorsed by the Fish Committe
of the House and Senate. : ghee

a re

ee $e

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 291

REPORT OF LEGISLATIVE FISH COMMITTEE

 

The following is a copy of the report made by the Legislative Fish
Committee to the Legislature of 1911: f

A BILL TO BE ENTITLED AN ACT TO ESTABLISH A FISHERIES COM-
MISSION AND TO PROTECT THE FISHERIES OF NORTH CARO-

LINA.

The General Assembly of North Carolina do enact:

Section 1. That for the purpose of enforcing the laws relating to all com-
mercial fish there is hereby created a Fisheries Commission, which shall con-
sist of a commissioner and the Geological Board and the State Geologist, which
said board and said State Geologist, in addition to their duties set forth in
chapter 94, section 4432, volume 2, of The Revisal of 1905, shall be clothed
with the powers and charged with the duties of enforcing the provisions of
this act, and for that purpose shall be denominated the Fisheries Commission
Board. The commissioner shall be appointed by the Governor within thirty
(30) days after the passage of this act. The commissioner shall be responsi-
ble to the Fisheries Commission Board for carrying out of the duties of his
office, and shall make semiannual reports to them at such time as they may
require. The term of office of said commissioner and his successors in office
shall be four years, or until their successors are appointed and qualified, and
in case of vacancy in the office the appointment shall be to fill the vacancy.
The said commissioner shall appoint two assistant commissioners, by and
with the consent of the Fisheries Commission Board, one of whom shall be
designated as Assistant Fish Commissioner and the other as Shellfish Com-
missioner. The aforesaid commissioner and assistant commissioners shall
receive such pay as the Fisheries Commission Board shall determine. Dur-
ing the absence of the commissioner, or his inability to act, the Fisheries
Commission Board shall appoint one of the assistant commissioners to have
and exercise all the powers of the commissioner. The commissioner and
assistant commissioners shall each execute and file with the Secretary of
State a bond, payable to the State of North Carolina, in the sum of five thou-
sand dollars for the commissioner and twenty-five hundred dollars for each
of the assistant commissioners, with securities to be approved by the Secre-
tary of State, conditioned for the faithful performance of their duties and to
account for and pay over pursuant to law all moneys received by them in
their office. The Fisheries Commissioner and assistant commissioners shall
take and subscribe an oath to support the Constitution and for the faithful
performance of the duties of his office, which oaths shall be filed with their
bonds. The assistant commissioners may be removed for cause by the com-
missioner, who may appoint their successors.

Src. 2. Inspectors—The Fisheries Commissioner may appoint, with the
approval of the Fisheries Commission Board, inspectors in each county hav-
ing fisheries under his jurisdiction, who will assist him at such times as he
may require. The said inspector shall serve under the direction of the com-
missioner, receiving compensation not to exceed three dollars per day and
necessary expenses while in actual service.

Si) PTAC COT : Papa en ae Pret eorem —— .
i ae we ee Pee! i Sip aih PEs a Sa Ok a ae eee - = - . i *

POE Pa OL | AR LI

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

= — SS

292 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Sec. 8. Office and Clerical Force-—The Fisheries Commissioner shall rent
and equip an office, which will be adequate for the business of the commis-
sion, in some town conveniently located to the maritime fisheries, and he is
authorized to employ such clerks and other employees as may be necessary
for the proper carrying on of the work of his office, by and with the consent
of the Fisheries Commission Board.

Sec. 4. Equipment—The Fisheries Commissioner is authorized, by and
with the consent of the Fisheries Commission Board, to purchase or rent such
boats, nets, and other equipment as may be necessary to enable him and his
assistants to fulfill the duties specified in this act.

Sec. 5. Duties—The commissioner shall enforce all acts relating to the
fish and fisheries of North Carolina; he shall, by and with the advice and
consent of the Fisheries Commission Board, make such regulations as shall
maintain open for the passage of fishes all inlets and not less than one-third
of the width of all sounds and streams, or such greater proportions of their
width as may be necessary; he shall collect and compile statistics showing
the annual product of the fisheries of the State, the capital invested and the
apparatus employed, and any fisherman refusing to give these statistics shall
be refused a license for the next year; and the Fish Commissioner shall pre-
pare and have on file in his office maps based on the charts of the United
States Coast and Geodetic Survey, of the largest scale published, showing as
closely as may be the location of all fixed apparatus employed during each
fishing season; he shall have surveyed and marked in a prominent manner
those areas of waters of the State in which the use of any or all fishing appli-
ances are prohibited by law or regulation, and those areas of waters in the
State in which oyster tonging or dredging is prohibited by law; he shall
prosecute all violations of the fish laws, and whenever necessary he may
employ counsel for this purpose; he shall seize and remove all nets or other
appliances set or being used in violation of the fisheries laws of the State,
advertise same for twenty days at the courthouse and three other public
places, and sell same at public auction at such place as the Fisheries Com-
missioner shall designate, in the county in which seizure was made, and apply
the proceeds of sale to payment of cost and expenses of such removal and
sale, and pay any balance remaining into the State Treasury to the credit of
the school fund of the county in which the seizure was made; he shall, in an
official capacity, have power to administer oaths and to send for and examine
persons and papers; he shall be responsible for the collection of all license
fees, taxes, rentals, or other imposts on the fisheries, and shall pay same into
the State Treasury to the credit of the Fisheries Commission fund; he shall,
on or before the twenty-fifth day of each month, mail to the Treasurer of the
State a consolidated statement showing the amount of taxes and license fees
collected during the preceding month, and by and from whom collected; he
shall carry on investigations relating to the migration and habits of the fish
in the waters of the State, also investigations relating to the cultivation of
the oyster, clam, and other mollusca, and of the terrapin, lobster, and crab,
and for this purpose he may employ such scientific assistance as may be
authorized by the Fisheries Commission Board.

Sec. 6. Arrests Without Warrant; When and How Made—tThe Fisheries
Commissioner, assistant commissioners and inspectors, shall have power with
or without warrants to arrest any person or persons violating any of the fish-
ery laws, who shall be carried before a magistrate for trial according to sec-

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 293

tien three thousand one hundred and eighty-two of The Revisal of one thou-
sand nine hundred and five.

Src. 7. Power to Take Fish—The Fisheries Commissioner and the United
States Bureau of Fisheries may take and cause to be taken for scientific pur-
poses, or for fish culture, any fish or other marine organism at any time from
the waters of North Carolina, any law to the contrary notwithstanding; and
may cause or permit to be sold such fishes or parts of fishes so taken as may
not be necessary for purposes of scientific investigations or fish culture:
Provided, that in taking fish for fish culture in the hatcheries of this State
the fish shall only be taken while the hatcheries are in operation and only
between the hours of 4 and 11 p. m.

Sec. 8. No Interest in Fisheries—The members of the Fisheries Commis-
sion Board, the Fisheries Commissioner, assistant commissioners and inspect-
ors, shall not be financially interested in any fishing indusfry in North
Carolina.

Src. 9. Revenue.—All license fees, taxes, rentals of bottoms for oyster or
clam cultivation and other imposts upon the fisheries, in whatever manner
collected, shall, except as otherwise provided in this act, be deposited with
the State Treasurer to the credit of the Fisheries Commission fund, to be
drawn upon as directed by the Fisheries Commission Board.

Src. 10. License to Fish and to Catch Oysters—Each and every person,
firm, or corporation, before commencing or engaging in any kind of fishing in
the State, shall file with an inspector of the county in which he desires to fish,
or with the Fisheries Commissioner, or one of his assistant commissioners, a
sworn statement as to the number and kind of nets, seines, or other appa-
ratus intended to be used in fishing. Upon filing this sworn statement on
oath the Fisheries Commissioner shall issue, or cause to be issued, to the said
party or parties a license as prescribed by law; said applicant shall pay a
license fee equal in amount to the fee or tax prescribed by law for fishing
different kinds of apparatus in the waters of the State of North Carolina, or
for tonging or dredging for oysters, as the case may be. The Fisheries
Commissioner shall keep in a book especially prepared for the purpose an
exact record of all licenses, to whom issued,-the number and kinds of nets,
boats, and other apparatus licensed, and the license fees received. He shall
furnish to each person, firm, or corporation in whose favor a license is issued
a special tag which will show the license number and number of pound nets,
or yards of seine, or yards of gill net that the licensee is authorized to use,
and the licensee shall attach said tag to the net in a conspicuous manner
satisfactory to the Fisheries Commissioner. All boats or vessels licensed to
scoop, scrape, or dredge oysters shall display on the port side of the jib, above
the reef and bonnet and on the opposite side of mainsail, above all reef points,
in black letters, not less than twenty inches long, the initial letter of the
county granting the license and the number of said license, the number to be
painted on canvas and furnished by the Fisheries Commissioner, for which he
shall receive the sum of fifty cents. Any boat or vessel used in catching
oysters without having complied with the provisions of this section may be
seized, forfeited, advertised for twenty days at the courthouse and two other
public places in the county where seized, and sold at some public place desig-
nated in the advertisement, and the proceeds, less the cost of the proceedings,
shall be paid into the school fund. The licenses to fish with nets shall all
terminate on December thirty-first. Any person who shall willfully use for
commercial fishing purposes any kind of net whatever, without having first

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

294 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

complied with the provisions of this section, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor
and, upon conviciton, shall be fined twenty-five dollars for each and every
offense.

Sec. 11. License for Boat Used in Catching Oysters—The Fisheries Com-
missioner, or Shellfish Commissioner, or inspector, may grant license for a
boat to be used in catching oysters upon application made, according to law,
and the payment of a license tax as follows: On any boat or vessel without
cabin or deck, and under custom house tonnage, using scoops, scrapes, or
dredges, measuring over all twenty-five feet and under thirty, a tax of three
dollars; fifteen feet and under twenty-five feet, a tax of two dollars; on any
boat or vessel with cabin or deck and under custom house tonnage, using
scrapes or dredges, measuring over all thirty feet or under, a tax of five dol-
lars; over thirty feet a tax of six dollars; on any boat or vessel using scoops,
scrapes, or dredges required to be registered or enrolled in the custom house,
a tax of one dollar and fifty cents a ton on gross tonnage. No vessel pro-
pelled by steam, gas, or electricity, and no boat or vessel not the property
absolutely of a citizen or citizens of this State, shall receive license or be
permitted in any manner to engage in the catching of oysters anywhere in
the waters of this State.

Sec. 12. Fishing for Menhaden With Purse Nets——Whenever any person
or persons, corporation or corporations, may intend to take menhaden (fat-
backs), porgies, herring, or other fish in any waters within the jurisdiction of
this State, including the waters of the Atlantic Ocean within three nautical
miles of the coasts of said State, either on his own account and benefit or on
account and benefit of his employer, with purse or shirred nets, such person
or persons, corporation or corporations, shall make an application to the
Fisheries Commissioner for a license, and, upon the receipt of such applica-
tion, the Fisheries Commissioner shall, upon the receipt of a sum equal to
two dollars for each ton of the net tonnage of each vessel employed in such
fishing, said net tonnage to be determined by custom house measurement, as
a license fee, issue to such person or persons, corporation or corporations, a
license duly signed by the Fisheries Commissioner, which said license shall
be valid and in force for the term of one year; all such licenses to be dated
from January first, and no license shall be for a space of time less than one
year. For every violation of this act the offending person or persons, corpor-
ation or corporations, shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and be fined two hun-
dred dollars for each and every offense.

Sec. 13. Purchase Taxz.—All dealers in oysters and all persons who pur-
chase oysters for canning, packing, shucking, or shipping, shall pay a tax of
two cents on every bushel of oysters purchased by them, or caught by them,
or by any one for them: Provided, that no oyster shall be twice taxed. This
tax shall be paid to and collected by the inspectors, and, when paid, a receipt
shall be given therefor. Upon failure or refusal by any person, firm, or cor-
poration to pay said tax, his license as a dealer shall at once become null and
void, and no further license shall be granted him during the current year;
and it shall be the duty of the commissioner, assistant commissioner, or
inspector to institute suit for the collection of said tax. Such suit shall be
in the name of the State of North Carolina on relation of the commissioner
or of the inspector at whose instance such suit is instituted, and the recoy-
ery shall be for the benefit and to the use of the General Fisheries Commis-
sion fund.

RRR Es eS Ra eee ae TRE iP TS, PAE DP EE

 

_&

res

 

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 295

Sec. 14. License Tax.—The following license tax is hereby levied annually
upon the different fishing appliances used in the waters of North Carolina:

Anchor gill nets, twenty cents per one hundred yards or fraction thereof.

Stake gill nets, ten cents per one hundred yards or fraction thereof.

Drift gill nets, twenty cents per one hundred yards or fraction thereof.

Pound nets, one dollar each.

Seine, drag nets, and mullet nets under one hundred yards, one dollar each.

Seine, drag nets, and mullet nets over one hundred yards and under three
hundred yards, one dollar per one hundred yards or fraction thereof.

Seine, drag nets, and mullet nets over three hundred yards and under one
thousand yards, one dollar and twenty-five cents per one hundred yards or
fraction thereof.

Seine, drag nets, and mullet nets over one thousand yards, one dollar and
seventy-five cents per one hundred yards or fraction thereof.

Fyke nets, twenty-five cents each.

Tonging for oysters, the license tax shall be one dollar for each tonger.

Src. 15. Reports—The Fisheries Commission Board shall cause to be pre-

pared and submitted to each Legislature a report showing the operations, col-
lections and expenditures of the Fisheries Commission; it shall also cause to
be prepared for publication such other reports, with necessary illustrations
and maps, as will adequately set forth the results of the work and the investi-
gations of the Fisheries Commission, all such reports, illustrations, and maps
to be printed and distributed at the expense of the State, as are other public
documents, as the Fisheries Commission Board may direct.
’ Sec. 16. Appropriation—There is hereby appropriated out of the General
Treasury as a supplementary fund the sum of ten thousand dollars annually
for four years, or as much thereof as may be needed, to the Fisheries Com-
mission to carry out the work of the commission in the protection and promo-
tion of the fisheries of the State, this sum to be repaid to the General Treas-
ury by the Fisheries Commission when it shall be on a self-sustaining basis,
said sum to be used and expended as directed by the Fisheries Commission
Board, and any part of it that may be required may be used for purchasing
boats and other equipment necessary to carry out the work of the commis-
sion; and any money that may be in the State Treasury to the credit of the
Fish Commission and Oyster Commission fund on the day that this act be-
comes effective shall be transferred by the State Treasurer to the credit of
the Fisheries Commission fund, and the Fisheries Commission Board is
hereby authorized to pay out of the Fisheries Commission fund all just
claims that may be outstanding against the Fish or Oyster Commissions.

Src. 17. Transfer of Equipment.—All boats, fishing and oyster tackle, office
supplies, stationery, and all other supplies of whatever character belonging
to the Fish Commission and Oyster Commission shall be transferred to the
Fisheries Commissioner for the use of the Fisheries Commission.

Src. 18. Jurisdiction of State—The State of North Carolina shall have
exclusive jurisdiction and control over all the commercial fisheries of the
State wherever located.

Sec. 19. It shall be unlawful to place in any of the waters of this State
any dynamite, giant or electric powder, or any explosive substance whatever,
or any drug or poisoned bait, for the purpose of taking, killing, or injuring
fish. And any one violating this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor
and shall, upon conviction, be fined or imprisoned in the discretion of the
court.

 

 
    

 

 

 

 

296 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

Sec. 20. It shall be unlawful to discharge or to cause or permit to be dis-
charged into the waters of the State any deleterious or poisonous substance
or substances inimical to the fishes inhabiting the said waters; and any
person, persons or corporation violating the provisions of this section shall
be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviciton, be fined or imprisoned in
the discretion of the court.

Sec. 21. The Fisheries Commission Board is hereby authorized to regulate,
prohibit, or restrict, in time, place, character, and dimensions, the use of nets,
appliances, apparatus, or means employed in taking or killing fish; to regulate
the seasons at which the various species of fish may be taken in the several
waters of the State, and to prescribe the minimum sizes of fish which may be
taken in the said several waters of the State; and such regulations, prohibi-
tions, restrictions, and prescriptions, after due publication, shall be of equal
force and effect with the provisions of this act; and any person violating the
provisions of this section shall be guilty of a misdemeanor, and upon convic-
tion shall be fined or imprisoned at the discretion of the court: Provided,
however, that if a petition signed by five or more voters of the district or
community which will be affected by the proposed change is filed with the

Fisheries Commission Board through the Fisheries Commissioner, assistant.

commissioners, or inspectors, asking that they have a hearing before any pro-
posed change in the territory, size of mesh, length of net, or time of fishing
shall go into effect, petitioning that they be heard regarding said change, the
Fisheries Commission Board shall in that event designate by advertisement
for a period of thirty days at the courthouse and three other public places in
the county affected, and also by publication in a newspaper of the county, if
such is published in said county, for two consecutive weeks, a place at which
said board will meet and hear argument for and against said change, and
may ratify, rescind, or alter this previous order of change as may seem just
in the premises.

Sec. 22. Any person or persons removing, injuring, defacing, or in any way
disturbing the posts, buoys, or any other appliances used by the Fisheries
Commission in marking the restricted areas relating to any and all fishing,
or marking other areas in which oyster tonging or dredging is prohibited by
law, and those marking oyster bottoms that are leased for oyster cultivation,
shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and, upon conviction, shall be fined or im-
prisoned at the discretion of the court.

Src, 23. Wherever the word fish or fishes used as a substantive occurs in
this act it shall be construed to include porpoises and other marine mammals,
fishes, mollusca, and crustaceans, and wherever the word fishing or fisheries
occurs it shall be construed to include all operations involved in using, set-
ting, or operating apparatus employed in killing or taking the said animals
or in transporting and preparing them for market.

Sec. 24. That all acts relating to the commercial fisheries of North Caro-
lina are hereby amended so that the words “Shellfish Commissioner,”
“Oyster Commissioner,” or “Fish Commissioner” shall read “Fisheries Com-
missioner”; and the words “Shellfish Commission,” “Oyster Commission,” or
“Fish Commission” shall read “Fisheries. Commission.”

Sec. 25. All laws and clauses of laws in conflict with this act are hereby
repealed.

Src. 26. That this act shall be in force from and after its ratification.

ne

THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA 297

It will be interesting at this time to give the opinion of the United
States Bureau of Fisheries on the report of the committee, and this
opinion was made a part of the report to the General Assembly of 1911:

DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE AND LABOR

BUREAU OF FISHERIES

WASHINGTON, November 28, 1910.

Dr. JosrpH Hype Prart, State Geologist, Chapel Hill, N. C.

Sm:—The Bureau acknowledges the receipt of your letter of November 15,
submitting for criticism the report of the joint legislative committee on
fishery matters which will be transmitted to the North Carolina Legislature
of 1911. The, Bureau has examined the proposed laws with care, and is
pleased to observe that they have both the breadth and flexibility essential to
meet the conditions obtaining in North Carolina. The provision for a single
commissioner accountable to a board already established, and which has
demonstrated its efficiency in connection with the Geological Survey, is re-
garded as excellent. It centralizes the administration of the fisheries regu-
lations, while at the same time placing at the service of the commissioner the
advice, and, if need be, the control, of a body free from bias and local asso-
ciation with the fishing communities. .

Safeguarded by this provision, the commissioner properly is given a wide
discretion concerning the details of the regulations. While the broad princi-
ple of State control of the fisheries is in the opinion of the Bureau the only
plan that will prove of lasting value, it is essential that recognition be made
of the fact that identical regulations as to nets, close seasons, etc., are not
applicable to all localities. After some experience and investigation the com-
missioner will be in an unequaled position to recommend such regulations as
will meet the local requirements and conditions. In respect to this, the
Bureau believes that the proposed law is superior to the systems applied in
other States and equal to that which has demonstrated its efficiency in the
Dominion of Canada. The Bureau is pleased also that there is proposed
statutory recognition of the principle of an open channel for the access of
fish to the upper waters. The success of the application of this principle to
the upper sounds of North Carolina has been attested by an improvement in
the fishery and in the increase of the take of shad eggs at Edenton hatchery
from six and a half millions in 1905 to seventy millions in 1910.

he oyster regulations do not appear to be materially changed, but the con-
solidation of the oyster commission with the fishery commission is in the
interest of economy and efficiency of administration.

he Bureau feels that it can properly endorse the conclusions of the com-
mittee, and expresses the hope that they will be enacted into law for the
benefit of not only the fishing communities, but the State of North Carolina
as a whole. Respectfully, H. M. Smits,

Acting Commissioner.

The bill carried an appropriation, and was reported favorably by

the committee on appropriations.
This substitute bill, after considerable debate, passed the House with-
out amendment; but when it came up in the Senate it was so amended

 
 

 

 

 

 

 

 

298 THE FISHING INDUSTRY IN NORTH CAROLINA

that it did not apply to certain counties, and after the amendments were
passed the bill was defeated.

To satisfy a very few, and out of senatorial courtesy, a State-wide
bill was allowed to be defeated, and a large and important State industry
was permitted not only to be retarded in its growth, but to actually
decline. It was a severe blow to the fishing industry of North Carolina;
but those who have the interest of the State of North Carolina at heart
and are thoroughly familiar with the dangers that beset this industry
are harder at work than ever to create a sentiment for the protection
and perpetuation of fishing industries. They realize that they must
carry on a campaign of education; that the fishermen must be given
accurate information as to what the protection of these industries will
mean to them, and that the measures advocated are absolutely necessary
if they and their children are to continue to make a livelihood out of
fishing; and the citizens, indeed, must have the information that will
show them that the fish and oysters are decreasing; that the industries
are growing less and less, and what could be made a most flourishing
industry in the State is becoming less and less every year; that what
is a State industry and a State problem has been considered purely as
a local problem; that an asset which belongs to all the people is being
destroyed by a few.

North Carolina, with its great extent of salt and fresh waters, should
be near the top of the list of the Atlantic States in value of its fish
industry. Instead it stands eleventh. Massachusetts is first, Virginia
second, Maryland fifth, and even little Connecticut comes ninth.

We can build up this industry if we will carry out similar measures
to those that other States have carried out.

 

 

SS MARRS LAS LPS RET A AER ER

   

 

  

PUBLICATIONS

OF THE

NORTH CAROLINA GEOLOGICAL AND ECONOMIC SURVEY

 

BULLETINS.

4. Iron Ores of North Carolina, by Henry B. C. Nitze, 1893. 8°, 239 pp., 20

pl., and map. Out of print.
2. Building and Ornamental Stones in North Carolina, by T. L. Watson and

F. B. Laney in collaboration with George P. Merrill, 1906. 8°, 283 pp., 32 pl.
2 figs. Postage 25 cents. Cloth-bound copy 80 cents extra.

3. Gold Deposits in North Carolina, by Henry B. C. Nitze and George B.
Hanna, 1896. 8°, 196 pp., 14 pl, and map. Out of print.

4. Road Material and Road Construction in North Carolina, by J. A. Holmes

and William Cain, 1893. 8°, 88 pp. Out of print.
5. The Forests, Forest Lands and Forest Products of Eastern North Caro-

lina, by W. W. Ashe, 1894. 8°, 128 pp., 5 pl. Postage 5 cents.
6. The Timber Trees of North Carolina, by Gifford Pinchot and W. W. Ashe,

1897. 8°, 227 pp., 22 pl. Out of print.
7. Forest Fires: Their Destructive Work, Causes, and Prevention, by W. W.

Ashe, 1895. 8°, 66 pp.,1 pl. Postage 5 cents.

8. Water-powers in North Carolina, by George F. Swain, Joseph A. Holmes
and E. W. Myers, 1899. 8°, 362 pp., 16 pl. Postage 16 cents.

9. Monazite and Monazite Deposits in North Carolina, by Henry B. C. Nitze,
1895. 8°, 47 pp. 5 pl. Postage 4 cents.

10. Gold Mining in North Carolina and other Appalachian States, by Henry
B. C. Nitze and A. J. Wilkins, 1897. 8°, 164 pp., 10 pl. Out of print.

11. Corundum and the Basic Magnesium Rocks of Western North Carolina,

by J. Volney Lewis, 1895. 8°, 107 pp., 6 pl. Postage 4 cents.
12. History of the Gems Found in North Carolina, by George Frederick

Kunz, 1907. 8°, 60 pp., 15 pl. Postage 8 cents. Cloth-bound copy 80 cents

extra.
13. Clay Deposits and Clay Industries in North Carolina, by Heinrich Ries,

1897. 8°, 157 pp., 12 pl. Postage 10 cents.
14. The Cultivation of the Diamond-back Terrapin, by R. BE. Coker, 1906.

8°, 67 pp., 23 pl., 2. figs. Out of print.

15. Experiments in Oyster Culture in Pamlico Sound, North Carolina, by
Robert E. Coker, 1907. 8°, 74 pp., 17 pl., 11 figs. Postage 6 cents.

16. Shade Trees for North Carolina, by W. W. Ashe, 1908. 8°, 74 pp., 10 pl.,
16 figs. Postage 6 cents.

17. Terracing of Farm Lands, by W. W. Ashe, 1908. 8°, 38 pp., 6 pl., 2 figs.

Postage 4 cents.
18. Bibliography of North Carolina Geology, Mineralogy and Geography,

with a list of Maps, by Francis Baker Laney and Katherine Hill Wood, 1909.

8°, 428 pp. Postage 25 cents. Cloth-bound copy 80 cents extra.
19. The Tin Deposits of the Carolinas, by Joseph Hyde Pratt and Douglass

B. Sterrett, 1905. 8°, 64 pp., 8 figs. Postage 4 cents.
20. Water-powers of North Carolina: An Appendix to Bulletin 8, 1910. 8°,

883 pp. Postage 25 cents.
21. The Gold Hill Mining District of North Carolina, by Francis Baker

Laney, 1910. 8°, 137 pp., 28 pl., 5 figs. Postage 15 cents.
22. A Report on the Cid Mining District, Davidson County, N. C., by J. B.

Pogue, Jr., 1911. 8°, 144 pp., 22 pl., 5 figs. Postage 15 cents. .
23. Forest Conditions in Western North Carolina, by J. S. Holmes, 1911. 8°,

115 pp., 8 pl. Postage 15 cents.
ECONOMIC PAPERS.

1. The Maple Sugar Industry in Western North Carolina, by W. W. Ashe,

1897. 8°, 34 pp. Postage 2 cents.
2. Recent Road Legislation in North Carolina, by J. A. Holmes. Out of

print.
 

 

3800 PUBLICATIONS

3. Talc and Pyrophyllite Deposits in North Carolina, by Joseph Hyde Pratt,
1900. 8°, 29 pp., 2 maps. Postage 2 cents.

4. The Mining Industry in North Carolina During 1900, by Joseph Hyde
Pratt, 1901. 8°, 36 pp., and map. Postage 2 cents.

Takes up in some detail Occurrences of Gold, Silver, Lead and Zine, Copper, Iron, Manganese, Cor-
undum, Granite, Mica, Ta!c, Pyrophyllite, Graphite, Kaolin, Gem Minerals, Monazite, Tungsten,
Building Stones, and Coal, in North Carolina.

5. Road Laws of North Carolina, by J. A. Holmes. Out of print.
6. The Mining Industry in North Carolina During 1901, by Joseph Hyde
Pratt, 1902. 8°, 102 pp. Postage 4 cents.

Gives a list of Minerals found in North:Carolina; describes the Treatment of Sulphuret Gold Ores,
giving Localities; takes up the Occurrence of Copper in the Virgilina, Gold Hill, and Ore Knob districts;
gives Occurrence and Uses of Corundum; a List of Garnets, describing Localities; the Occurrence,
Associated Minerals, Uses and Localities of Mica; the Occurrence of North Carolina Feldspar, with
Analyses; an extended description of North Carolina Gems and Gem Minerals; Occurrences of Mon-
azite, Barytes, Ocher; describes and gives Occurrences of Graphite and Coal; describes and gives
Occurrences of Building Stones, including Limestones; describes and gives Uses for the various forms
of Clay; and under the head of ‘‘Other Economic Minerals’’ describes and gives Occurrences of

Chromite, Asbestos, and Zircon.

7. Mining Industry in North Carolina During 1902, by Joseph Hyde Pratt,

1908. 8°, 27 pp. Postage 2 cents.
8. The Mining Industry in North Carolina During 1903, by Joseph Hyde

Pratt, 1904. 8°, 74 pp. Postage 4 cents.

Gives descriptions of Mines worked for Gold in 1903; descriptions of Properties worked for Copper
during 1903, together with assay of ore from Twin-Edwards Mine; Analyses of Limonite ore from Wilson
Mine; the Occurrence of Tin; in some detail the Occurrences of Abrasives; Occurrences of Monazite
and Zircon; Occurrences and Varieties of Graphite, giving Methods of Cleaning; Occurrences of Marble
and other forms of Limestone; Analyses of Kaolin from Barber Creek, Jackson County, North Carolina,

9. The Mining Industry in North Carolina During 1904, by Joseph Hyde
Pratt, 1905. 8°, 95 pp. Postage 4 cents.

Gives Mines Producing Gold and Silver during 1903 and 1904 and Sources of the Gold Produced during
1904; describes the mineral Chromite, giving Analyses of Selected Samples of Chromite from Mines
in Yancey County; describes Commercial Varieties of Mica, giving the manner in which it occurs in
North Carolina, Percentage of Mica in the Dikes, Methods of Mining, Associated Minerals, Localities,
Uses; describes the mineral Barytes, giving Method of Cleaning and Preparing Barytes for Market;
describes the use of Monazite as used in connection with the Preparation of the Bunsen Burner, and

oes into the use of Zircon in connection with the Nernst Lamp, giving a List of the Principal Yttrium
Minerals; describes the minerals containing Corundum Gems, Hiddenite and Other Gem Minerals,
and gives New Occurrences of these Gems; describes the mineral Graphite and gives new Uses for same.

10. Oyster Culture in North Carolina, by Robert E. Coker, 1905. 8°, 39 pp.

Out of print.
11. The Mining Industry in North Carolina During 1905, by Joseph Hyde

Pratt, 1906. 8°, 95 pp. Postage 4 cents.

Describes the mineral Cobalt and the principal minerals that contain Cobalt; Corundum Localities;
Monazite and Zircon in considerable detail, giving Analyses of Thorianite; describes Tantalum Minerals
and gives description of the Tantalum Lamp; gives brief description of Peat Deposits; the manufacture
of Sand-lime Brick; Operations of Concentrating Plant in Black Sand Investigations; gives Laws
Relating to Mines, Coal Mines, Mining, Mineral Interest in Land, Phosphate Rock, Marl Beds.

12. Investigations Relative to the Shad Fisheries of North Carolina, by John
N. Cobb, 1906. 8°, 74 pp., 8 maps. Postage 6 cents.
13. Report of Committee on Fisheries in North Carolina. Compiled by

Joseph Hyde Pratt, 1906. 8°, 78 pp. Owt of print.
14. The Mining Industry in North Carolina During 1906, by Joseph Hyde
Pratt, 1907. 8°, 144 pp., 20 pl., and 5 figs. Postage 10 cents.

Under the head of ‘‘Recent Changes in Gold Mining in North Carolina,” gives methods of mining,
describing Log Washers, Square Sets, Cyanide Plants, etc., and detailed descriptions of Gold Deposits
and Mines are given; Copper Deposits of Swain County are described; Mica Deposits of Western North
Carolina are described, giving Distribution and General Character, General Geology, Occurrence,
Associated Minerals, Mining and Treatment of Mica, Origin, together with a description of many of
the mines; Monazite is taken up in considerable detail as to Location and Occurrence, Geology, includ-
ing classes of Rocks, Age, Associations, Weathering, method of Mining and Cleaning, description of
Monazite in Original Matrix.

15. The Mining Industry in North Carolina During 1907, by Joseph Hyde
Pratt, 1908. 8°, 176 pp., 13 pl., and 4 figs. Postage 15 cents.

Takes up in detail the Copper of the Gold Hill Copper District; a description of the Uses of Mona-
zite and its Associated Minerals; descriptions of Ruby, Emerald, Beryl, Hiddenite, and Amethyst
Localities: a detailed description with Analyses of the Principal Mineral Springs of North Carolina;
a description of the Peat Formations in North Carolina, together with a detailed account of the Uses
of Peat and the Results of an Experiment Conducted by the United States Geological Survey on Peat

from Elizabeth City, North Carolina. >

PUBLICATIONS 301

16. Report of Convention called by Governor R. B. Glenn to Investigate the
Fishing Industries in North Carolina, compiled by Joseph Hyde Pratt, State
Geologist, 1908. 8°, 45 pp. Postage 4 cents.

17. Proceedings of Drainage Convention held at New Bern, North Carolina,
September 9, 1908. Compiled by Joseph Hyde Pratt, 1908. 8°, 94 pp. Post-
age 5 cents. :

18. Proceedings of Second Annual Drainage Convention held at New Bern,
North Carolina, November 11 and 12, 1909, compiled by Joseph Hyde Pratt,
and containing North Carolina Drainage Law, 1909. 8°, 50 pp. Postage $
cents. ;

19. Forest Fires in North Carolina During 1909, by J. S. Holmes, Forester,
1910. 8°, 52 pp.,9 pl. Postage 5 cents.

20. Wood-using Industries of North Carolina, by Roger E. Simmons, under
the direction of J. S. Holmes and H. S. Sackett, 1910. 8°, 74 pp., 6 pl. Post-
age 7 cents.

21. Proceedings of the Third Annual Drainage Convention, held under
Auspices of the North Carolina Drainage Association; and the North Carolina’
Drainage Law (codified). Compiled by Joseph Hyde Pratt, 1911. 8°, 67 pp.,
8 pl. Postage 5 cents.

22. Forest Fires in North Carolina During 1910, by J. S. Holmes, Forester,
1911. 8°, 48 pp. Postage 3 cents.

23. Mining Industry in North Carolina During 1908, ’09, and ’10, by Joseph
Hyde Pratt and Miss H. M. Berry, 1911. - 8°, 184 pp., 1 pl., 27 figs. Postage
15 cents.

Gives report on Virgilina Copper District of North Carolina and Virginia, by F. B. Laney; Detailed
report on Mica Deposits of North Carolina, by Douglas B. Sterrett; Detailed report on Monazite, by
Douglas B. Sterrett; Reports on various Gem Minerals, by Douglas B. Sterrett; Information and
Analyses concerning certain Mineral Springs; Extract from Chance Report of the Dan River and Deep
River Coal Fields; Some notes on the Peat Industry, by Professor Charles A. Davis; Extract from
report of Arthur Keith on the Nantahala Marble; Description of the manufacture of Sand-lime Brick.

24. Fishing Industry of North Carolina, by Joseph Hyde Pratt, 1911. 8°, 44
pp. Postage 5 cents.

25. Proceedings of Second Annual Convention of the North Carolina For-
estry Association, held at Raleigh, North Carolina, February 21, 1912. Forest
Fires in North Carolina During 1911. Suggested Forestry Legislation. Com-
piled by J. S. Holmes, Forester, 1912. 8°, 71 pp. Postage 5 cents.

26. Proceedings of Fourth Annual Drainage Convention, held at Elizabeth
City, North Carolina, November 15 and 16, 1911, compiled by Joseph Hyde
Pratt, State Geologist, 1912. 8°, 45 pp. Postage 3 cents.

27. Highway Work in North Carolina, containing a Statistical Report of
Road Work during 1911, by Joseph Hyde Pratt, State Geologist, and Miss H. M.
Berry, Secretary, 1912. 8°, 145 pp., 11 figs. Postage 10 cents.

28. Culverts and Small Bridges for Country Roads in North Carolina, by
= R. Thomas and T. F. Hickerson, 1912. 8°, 56 pp., 14 figs., 20 pl. Postage

cents.

29. Report of the Fisheries Convention Held at New Bern, N. C., December
13, 1911, compiled by Joseph Hyde Pratt, State Geologist, together with a
Compendium of the Stenographic Notes of the Meetings Held on the Two Trips
taken by the Legislative Fish Committee Appointed by the General Assembly
of 1909, and the Legislation Recommended by this Committee, 1912. 8°, .. pp.
Postage .. cents.

80. Proceedings of the Annual! Convention of the North Carolina Good
Roads Association held at Charlotte, N. C., August 1 and 2, 1912, in Coépera-
tion with the North Carolina Geological and Economic Survey, compiled by
Joseph Hyde Pratt, State Geologist, and Miss H. M. Berry, Secretary, 1912.
8°, .. pp. Postage .. cents.

VOLUMES.

Vol. I.. Corundum and the Basic Magnesian Rocks in Western North Caro-
lina, by Joseph Hyde Pratt and J. Volney Lewis, 1905. 8°, 464 pp., 44 pl,
35 figs. Postage 32 cents. Cloth-bound copy 80 cents extra.

Vol. II. Fishes of North Carolina, by H. M. Smith, 1907. 8°, 453 pp., 21 pl,
188 figs. Postage 30 cents.

Vol. III. The Coastal Plain Deposits of North Carolina, by Wm. Bullock

 
 

 

 

 
 
   
 
      
    
      
    
       
 
      
        
      
   
    
    
    
   
     
   
   
     
   
   
    
   
   
 
 
    
    
     
       
       
      
      
   
   
   

302 PUBLICATIONS

Clark, Benjamin L. Miller, L. W. Stephenson, B. L. Johnson, and Horatio N.
Postage 35 cents.

Parker, 1912. 8°, 509 pp., 62 pl., 21 figs.
f the Coastal Plain of North Carolina, by Wm. Bullock

Pt. I.—The Physiography and Geology 0!
Clark, Benjamin L. Miller, and L. W. Stephenson.
Pt. I1.—The Water Resources of the Coastal Plain of North Carolina, by L. W. Stephenson

and B. L. Johnson.
BIENNIAL REPORTS.
ort, 1891-1892, J. A. Holmes, State Geologist, 1893. 8°,

111 pp., 12 pl., 2 figs. Postage 6 cents.
i iving Object and Organization of the Survey; Investigations of Iron Ores,
Coastal Plain Region, including supplies of drinking-waters in

Building Stone, Geological Work in
d Forest Products, Coal and Marble, Investigations of Diamond

eastern counties, Report on Forests an

Drill.
Biennial Report, 1893-1894, J. A. Holmes, State Geologist, 1894. 8°, 15 pp.

Postage 1 cent.
Administrative report.
Biennial Report,
Postage 1 cent.
Administrative report.
Biennial Report,
Postage 2 cents.
Administrative report.
Biennial Report, 1899-1900, J. A. Holmes, State Geologist, 1900. 8°, 20 pp.
Postage 2 cents.
Administrative report.
Biennial Report,
Postage 1 cent.

Administrative report. :
Biennial Report, 1903-1904, J. A. Holmes, State Geologist, 1905. 8°, 32 pp.

Postage 2 cents.
Administrative report.

Biennial Report, 41905-1906, Joseph Hyde Pratt, State Geolo

60 pp. Postage 3 cents.
Administrative report; report on certain swamp lands belonging to the State, by W. W. Ashe; it also

gives certain magnetic observations at North Carolina stations.

Biennial Report, 1907-1908, Joseph Hyde Pratt, State Geologist, 1908. 8°,

60 pp., 2 pl. Postage 5 cents.
Administrative repcrt. Contains Report on Sand Banks along the North Carolina Coast, Jay F.

Bond, Forest Assistant, United States orest Service; certain magnetic obseryations at North Caro-
lina stations; Results of an investigation Relating to Clam Cultivation, by Howard E. Enders of Pur-

due University.
Biennial Report, 1909-1910, Joseph Hyde Pratt, State Geologist, 1911. 8°,

1895-1896, J. A. Holmes, State Geologist, 1896. 8°, 17 pp.

1897-1898, J. A. Holmes, State Geologist, 1898. 8°, 28 pp.

1901-1902, J. A. Holmes, State Geologist, 1902. 8°, 15 pp.

gist, 1907. 8°,

  
 
      
   
        
        
     
    
      
   
   
      
    
      
     
       
   
    
    
    
 
    
     
     
    
    
   
   
     
   
      
   
    
    

 

 

 

 

 

 

al Werk, and Topo-
1 Survey; Forest Work with the

152 pp. Postage 10 cents.

Administrative report, and contains Agreements
graphical and Traverse Mapping Work with the United States Geologica’
United States Department of Agriculture (Forest Service); List of Topographic maps of North Caro-
lina and counties partly or wholly topographically mapped; description of special Highways in North
Carolina; suggested Road Legislation; list of Drainage Districts and Results of Third Annual Drain-
age Convention; Forestry reports relating to Connolly Tract; Buncombe County, Transylvania County

Abandoned Farm Lands, on the Wood-

State Farm, certain Watersheds, Reforestaticn of Cut-over and
- Recommendaticns for the Artificial Regeneration of Long-

lands of the Salem Academy and College;
leaf Pine at Pinehurst; Act re i he Protection of Meridian Monuments an
i i tic Declination at

Standards of Measure at the several county-sea

the county-seats, January 1, 1910; letter of Fish Commissioner of the United States Bureau of Fish-

eries relating to the conditions of the North Carolina fish industries; report of the Survey for the North

Carolina Fish Commission referring to dutch or pound-net fishing in ‘Albemarle and Groatan sounds
lilbert T. Rude, of the United States Coast and Geodetic Survey; Historical

and Chowan River, by G Geoc
Sketch of the several North Carolina Geological Surveys, with list of publications of each.

 

ral found in the State may be sent to the office of the

ic Survey for identification, and the same will be clas-
It must be understood, however, that No ASSAYS, OR
ONS, WILL BE MADE. Samples should be in a lump
ked plainly on outside of package with name of
a letter should accompany sample and stamp

Samples of any mine
Geological and Econom
sified free of charge.
QUANTITATIVE DETERMINATI
form if possible, and mar
sender, post-office address, etc.;
should be enclosed for reply.

These publications are mailed to libraries an
desire information on any of the special subjects named, free of charge, except
licants for the reports should forward the amount of

that in each case app d
postage needed, as indicated above, for mailing the bulletins desired, to the

State Geologist, Chapel Hill, N. 0.

 

d to individuals who may

 
 

 

 

 

FOR REFERENCE

Do Not Take From This Room

JOYNER

AONUMA

310372 0008 3584

SH222.N8 F5x
Report of the Fisheries Co REO