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Living Traditions: Wampum, Dance, and Cultural Memory
November 4, 2024
Joyner Library
Speakers:
David Locklear
Joey Crutchfield
Travis Dunn

Alston Cobourn (00:01)
Okay. Well, hi everyone. Thank you for coming. My name is Alston Cobourn. I'm the head of University history and records here in Joyner library and Academic Library Services. And I on behalf of myself and my all my colleagues in our Special Collections division. Welcome and thank you for coming. I want to point out a couple things. First, make sure, before you leave right, that you check out the display of the Nooherooka 300 wampum belt that is right outside the door with some information about it. And then also, there is a little table over here that we would love for you to sign in on that would be super helpful. And then also, I want to mention that we do have a collection of materials and university archives from the Native American group on campus, and so we have an online collection guide about that. And some of those materials have been digitized. It has artifacts as well as photographs and like paper based materials. So mentioning that in case of something you might find interesting. And then lastly, I will say that, well, not lastly. Second to last, I will say that we are recording tonight, and we're going to try to make this available in Digital Collections as well. And then there is some food and water at the back, so definitely make sure you have a snack before you leave. And without further ado, I will pass it off to David Locklear and let him introduce himself. Thank you.

David Locklear (01:43)
[Untranslated] Hello everyone, that was what I said. Hello. I said, [hah-skeh-neh-heh], are you well? So we hope everyone is well. And I also said that I'm happy to be here, and my nation is the Tuscarora nation. The way we say Tuscarora in our language is [Skarù:re?]. And then I also said that I am from the original homeland. We don't have a word for North Carolina in our language, so we use the word [Untranslated], which means the original homeland. So it's good to be here, good to see everyone and thank you in our language, we say in [Nyà:we], thank you for coming and listening to these words. So just to start out today tonight, I am a traditionalist. Amongst the Tuscarora and the other Iroquois nations, we have people who are keepers of Wampum, of our Wampum Belts and our Wampum Shells and our string wampum, and they're very knowledgeable about that within those wampum belts and those wampum shells that we use are stories woven into those wampums. So from a traditional aspect that I'll be sharing with you is kind of what that wampum means to us traditionally, and how we use it in our ceremonies or socials and different gatherings that we do when we come together to make decisions for our nations. So first off, wampum, to us, is a very important bead, a very important shell. Um, traditionally, we believe that the wampum came from the Creator to guide us in a path of peace. So when we look at the Wampum Belt, we look at a belt where peace is woven into it. The white shells on a wampum represent purity and represents peace and represents integrity. The purple shells in a wampum represents more of a civic duty, the ability to make peace with other nations and other people, and the ability to come together make agreements that lead us into the direction of peace so and that's the traditional aspect that I have when it comes to wampum and how we use it and how it has been taught to me the first wampum built that my people taught me about, And the first one that I was interested in, and it's usually the first one that all the Iroquois are interested in, is a belt we call the Two Row Wampum. Two Row Wampum belt. That belt is pretty simple belt. It's a white with two rows of purple shells. Now this wampum represents to us a relationship that we created with the first settlers that came to our homelands, the [Unaʼyahügwa] and when they came here, we recognized that they were of a different language. They were of a different culture. We had vessels of canoes. They had vessels of. Ships. So so in this Two Row Wampum, the way I was taught is that we created this agreement with the settlers that we would live together. We would be in unity, but we would both be in our own water vessels. We will be in our canoe. They would remain in their ships. That meant our form of government was going to be our form of government. And however they govern themselves, they will govern their sales. And it was a peace agreement that we have with each other that the Indians would stay in their lane and the settlers would stay in their lane. So, so that's the traditional aspect, and some of the um, just understanding of wampum in the way that I was taught, being a traditionalist, learning Tuscarora songs and learning the Tuscarora speeches and the different culture that we do. So wampum, to us, is more than just a decoration. It's more than just a build. It's more than just nice beads. It is an agreement of a relationship between two people or two nations that we will come together in peace. So every time you see a Wampum Belt like this Wampum Belt that displayed out here, it is an agreement that the Tuscaroras have created and woven inside of that belt to say that we come in peace and we want to live in unison with you so, so that that's my understanding, and that's the way I was taught about the wampum shells and the wampum belt and what we use it for. Now, there are some people that will teach that, that the Indians use wampum as money and and there was some of that going on trading, but the truth is, wampum belts were deeper than just money, ability to trade for something else. It was a relationship woven into those belts, or those strings that we use. Now you're probably more you probably know Wampum Belts, more than than anything that we use, um, just like a Wampum Belt display, but we also use strings of Wampum. You just heard me, um, say that also strings of Wampum. Um, each of the different tribes have their own Wampum Strings that represents them. And a lot of times when we speak in our in our councils, when we're performing our government, we hold those Wampum Strings when we're speaking to another nation. So if I was to speak to the [Senecas], I would hold the wampum string that represents the [Senecas], and I would speak to them. And a lot of times when we hold that Wampum, it's kind of like you putting your hand on the Bible and swearing to tell the truth. When we hold that Wampum, and we're saying our speeches and we're communicating with other tribes or other people, there's this sense of integrity and this sense of honor that when we use that Wampum and when we speak to other nations with it, and there's a sense of integrity, respect and peace and unity from the other nations that listen to us as we're holding it,

David Locklear (08:15)
the stories within Wampum is so important that in traditional times When settlers first came here, that we were trading, and we were trading for clay beads and glass beads, that the stories inside our Wampum Belts are so important that even today, we might use clay beads to represent that wampum build, or those Strings of Wampum. But the relationship meaning in that wampum still remains the same. And even if I was to hold a string of clay beads, that you would still have that sense of respect from that other party toward you, because it's not the shells, it's the meaning woven into the wampum. It's always about peace. Now, the Tuscarora had a war here, and it was a very severe war. And and over the over time, over traditional times, and over the years, we have laid down our hatchets and our bows and our spears and and we have become a people of peace. Even with my tribe, we do a war dance that we only do at pow wows, and it's a competition dance. It's a real fast dance, and sometimes we call it the fast war dance. But we really don't do a war dance to perform or to showcase how we would go out to battle or to fight, because we have become a people peace and and that walk the wampum belt and the wampum shields really bring to light how we have woven our stories into those treaties and those builds to show that we are a people peace now in traditional times. We didn't know how to write. Now, we had some hieroglyphics that we we did, we drew and, but our way of of creating a treaty with you or with other nations was to create a wampum bill and, and in those wampum bills was the stories of peace woven into so we can make those treaties and agreements. Now for the two road wampum, the Indians stay in their lane, and the settlers, these new people come into our world, would stay in their lane. Now today, that's kind of hard. There are some compromises to some of the treaties we've made, but as we believe it traditionally, the traditional aspect that I'm sharing with you is that we wholeheartedly believe that when those belts and those wampums were made, it was made for the reason to keep everyone at peace and coming together. So even though there's some compromises on on trying to stay in our canoe, where the settlers trying to stay in their ships. That that the true meaning was that as long as we can live together in peace, then the meaning of the wampum is coming to pass. So, so that that's my, you know, traditional take on, on wampum. Now I'm not a wampum keeper. We have wampum keepers within our tribe, and they carry all the stories and all the meanings of the that wampum, and sometimes they'll showcase it at certain events. So and you know, because I'm here and you have invited me, I did bring my drum. It's a water drum, and my tribe uses a water drum, or we use horn rattles. So to share with you, and just to create a sense of peace, here, I'm going to sing a song for you in My tribe. It's called friend, A friendship song. So, [Singing]. So among the [Iroquois, because we're a people of peace, there are times we use bigger drums and we use drums made of different hides, but our traditional drum here, which is a drum that we use, which represents peace and it represents unity. Is called the water drum. In that wampum belt that I was explaining to you, the two Row Wampum, where the Indians stay in their canoe and the settlers stayed in their ships. In between those two rows is water, and we're constantly drifting along side by side, and that water is an element within our tribe that we always honor. Because in the waters, in our creation story, it's taught that that a woman fell from the sky, and as she fell from the sky, all these water animals came up to help her. So so in our ways, this water represents all of life coming together and all of life rescuing humans and humans giving back. So that's what this room represents. It represents peace. So I'm going to introduce now the next speaker for us. His name is Mister Joey Crutchfield. He's from the Monica nation, and he's going to come up and share some words that we do so Yahweh, thank you.

Joey Crutchfield (14:30)
Thanks, David, known to him a long time. First one say thank you guys for allowing me to be here. My name is Joey Crutchfield. I graduated from this great university a long time ago, got a great friend back there that we've been talking about. We're both old being now, but when we first met, we were both young, so that's a long time ago, but I'm here to talk a little bit about pow wows, and especially pow wows to the indigenous people in the southeast. Slash, North Carolina and Virginia. So before we can we start about that, talking about we got to figure out what is a pow wow. Has any, anyone ever been to a pow wow? Yeah. What would you say a pow wow is a get together Friends?

Joey Crutchfield (15:17)
Yeah, get together Friends. Yeah, exactly. Dave said a really important word. It was like relationships. He kept saying that word. And I would say that for me, my definition of pow wow will be like a family reunion and to reinforce those relationships. That's how I see it. Now, like anything else, there could be different interpretations of it, um, but we gotta talk a little bit about the history of how the pow wow came to be. First of all, the word, I think it's an [albuncan] word, I think meant something about medicine or something like that. But anyway, the federal government in 1921 banned all sorts of pow wows or anything like that. And that was based from the West, when the Ghost Dance and all that stuff, they're thinking, there's gonna be an uprising and all that. So they said, no, no, you can't do that. And that kind of coincide, least in the southeast, as ie Virginia, with the racial integrity law, which was a law in Virginia that said, basically, there are only white people and colored people. There were no indigenous people. So, and I'm going through this a little bit, because we see how this brings us up to the modern day pow wow while Walter plecker was head of the vital statistics. I think I got this date right, 1912 to 1946 I was born in 1958 so it still affected me, even as a child. So according to the law, a white person was, quote, shall apply only to such persons. It has no trace whatever of blood other than Caucasian. Well, that's a little asterisk about that, because had something called the Pocahontas effect or exception. I think it's what it's called, because there were a lot of people, or some people, in Virginia, who had a lot of influence that had their lineage to to Pocahontas. Well, that mean, there's a little problem there, because you're you got other blood other than you've 100% Caucasian blood, so you've had 116 you still could be privileged and live as a white person and still say, I'm related to Pocahontas. Oh, how convenient is that. But that's the way it was. That's just how it is. Everything because of those laws, maintaining your identity made it more difficult, because you couldn't go say eastern Virginia. You couldn't go around saying I'm an indigenous person. They wouldn't say indigenous. They would say Indian, because according to law, you're a colored person, you know? And one of the things I would say, where I was from, was that they talked about free issues. That was the term Free issue. And the joke I would say, is you white? Is you black? What is you? I mean, that's my opinion, but I take what according to my father, Joe, who was the really all in the family, but knowing he connected me to my grandparents. I remember my grandparents, but my father tells me the stories about them as well, and he said that that the people continue to reinforce their relations to native identity by having homecomings. They didn't call it a pow wow. They call it a homecoming. And at this time, the church becomes the focal point of the community, the tribal leadership and everything else. The story that he tells me is when my grandparents moved from Bedford County, Virginia, which is right next to Amherst, to Roanoke, to find work, there were no schools that would accept them, and so except the Catholic school. So my grandmother converted the Catholicism send all their children, every 14 of them, to get the Catholic school. And she said that any religion that could accept her children was a good religion. So she converted to Catholicism. My grandfather never did. Now, my father tells me, he said it was great because that if you're Catholic, you know mass last one hour. So he would go to Mass a nine o'clock mass, 10 o'clock, 1015, he's back home. His friends are just getting ready to go to church today. Because, you know, if you're in Protestant church, you're going to be in there a couple hours. So he said it was a good thing. But if you really think about it, the church was a Tribal and Community government, and people would have their homecomings and come back and celebrate, pray, have food, dance and reinforce the community ties, just kind of like we do in the modern day. Pow wow today, my father also indicated that different families, clans would also come back, and that, least in our clan, we had been doing this for over 80 years. Often they met in a public park today. Sometimes people call them family reunions or whatever, but they did it in a public park. And so again, pow wows, again can be modern day in a park and be private. Or public, as they talked about when they do some of the dances and ceremonies, and sometimes they're private, not for outsiders and everything. One of the biggest influences I had was a man named John Jeffries, John blackfeather, who was my mentor, who was a gentleman who I learned a lot from, and John taught me a whole lot. I miss it. That's the best way to do it. But John was an emcee in the powwows, and I've learned to be an emcee from from John. One of the biggest things I learned from John was this, John took a lot of heat for this. He when He had a powwow, he would allow people who didn't have their Indian card, because, you know, you have to carry cards that say you're Indian to come into the powwow. And a lot some people didn't like that. But John's thing was, we gotta recognize each other. We gotta reinforce our relationships with each other. And he would do that. He took a lot of heat. He would say, sometimes he said that we, the dancers or singers, were not here to entertain you the public, but we're here to share the culture. So that is really true. What John talked about that then and today, but today, all over the United States, somewhere in North Carolina and Virginia, there's a powwow going on for me personally, it has been the way to the I could connect to other people and recognize other people. When I came to this university in 1977 I think it was there weren't a lot of indigenous people here. There weren't a whole lot of people who looked like me here. I mean, there were some, but not a whole lot. And I would say that for me, it was kind of like being a goldfish placed in a bowl, and that goldfish bowl placed in the front window of the pet store. And when people went by and go, Oh, that's a goldfish, and so you're kind of alone. There were a couple people, Lumbee people were here. There were also some herring people here. They were not state recognized. But, you know, we know who each other were, and they knew all that. And again, it was us recognizing each other. I wouldn't say it was a bad experience on that. I don't mean it that way, but it did feel different, and that's why I'm so excited that when I see the East Carolina native American organization do their things, and also the fact that the first Native American fraternity in the United States started here in East Carolina. So I mean all those things, it makes me really, really feel proud that I can say that I graduated from this great university in North Carolina. The oldest pow wow is credited to the Halawa saponi Just not far from here, up in the Hollister chief w r Richardson in 1965 the Holloway saponi have the oldest and probably one of the largest, if not the largest, pow wow in the state. It's probably up there anything usually, I think it's the second week in April, I think certainly third week in April, not far from us, an hour and a half away from here. So if you ever get a chance, you want to go there. The Chickahominy tribe in Virginia, in they've been having their powwow since 1951 and in fact, I think they kind of help the Halawa saponi Somewhat with their first pow wow as well. But the chickahomini also had, they didn't call it pow wow since the early 1900s they might call it a gathering or something like that. So by night in the 1970s the 1980s the recognized tribes in North Carolina and Virginia are having their annual pow wows and gatherings. So for me today, powwows are an essential way for one us to connect to each other as human beings regardless. Because if you really think about it, no matter who your ancestors are, where you come from. At one time, they were tribal people, and they had a a direct relationship with creator, nature, God. And we kind of some communities, have lost that. So the, in a sense, the the modern day pow wow allows us, just with that little moment, to reconnect with each other, and without saying anything else, that's gonna be really important, because just recently, this week, I was coordinating with my daughter and my granddaughter, who is seven and Native American Heritage Week. Month is this month, and I was gonna go to her school to speak. They're second graders. And so the teacher asked my daughter, was I going to be political? And so my response would have been if I said, Well, do you want me to be? But my daughter said, no, they're second graders. And so the whole thing, again, it's about connecting in relationships, and we'll do fun things with them in their second grades. I'm a former teacher, so I mean, all you know, all that stuff, but pow wows are important to do that. And I think John was right about this. The more we share our culture with each other, we really break down all those things, and then we really remember and focus on that we are all human beings first. So that's what I would say. The significance of powers in the past are added today is to make that connection again, to reinforce our relationship that we have with God, with creator, which means if we have that relationship with God, creator, then we have the relationship with each other. So that's what I think any questions real fast about, about that, yes, ma'am.

Audience Member (25:45)
What was your language to communicate with other tribes?

Joey Crutchfield (25:49)
That's a good question. You know, in what's to say in the southeast, there were hundreds of languages being spoken, mainly three language groups, what they kind of put them in, and everything the the Monacan people, and also related to the Oconee cheese, the waccamaws spoke a suing based language. You know, a lots happening at contact. You know, by by, by the 1750s the people, the Monacan people, the Confederacy, it's pretty much gone. It's just people are moving all over the place. I mean, some people go to what we call Robinson County today. We have the people in Hollister who have and now we said North Carolina. But at the time, there was no Virginia, North Carolina. People were just coming and they were trying to survive. And so if you had a skill that knew how to make pottery, and you had a skill know how to hunt, we couldn't come together, no different than what people do today. I teach at Pitt Community College, and I was talking about today, we're talking about how people survived during the Depression, and one of the things they did, and these are young people. And I asked, what are some meals you could prepare, that food you could use today, that could stretch it out? They had no idea. I said, you can't use a hot pocket now. So I said, What about rice? What about beans? And so I was telling a story I had to do when I was in high school. I had to research someone who lived in a depression, and not many people left around. But I interviewed my dad told his brother, and he told me the story about how my grandmother would fix beans, big pot of beans, and feed 14 kids, and my grandfather and she, so it's 16 people, big pot of beans. So they're either pot some of the first day they'll eat the second day of it, the third day, which they would take, I think they call it the pot liquor, or the whatever. And she would make cornbread, and they would pour it over corn bread that would be there. The other thing so the language, some people say, when you don't lose you don't have your language, you lost your culture, and maybe so. But also you reinforce those things. I remember Auntie's telling us being Catholic, if someone passed, would have our ceremony. And if the priest was there, one of the aunties would say, or which meant we're we either can do our ceremony or we can't do our ceremony. So most of the time, luckily, it was a priest that would allow us to do it. But every now and then, I remember they would go, which meant when he leaves, all right, we can do what we need to do. So, but that's kind of we were a Suan speaking group. Hit that language. He was speaking with a more Iroquois based language. So, good question. Anything else?

Alston Cobourn (28:35)
We do have time for questions at the end. Okay, everybody, okay. I mean, we can take other questions. Yeah, all right, we will. We can add everyone questions. Then too, we'll be fine.

Joey Crutchfield (28:45)
Okay.

Audience Member (28:46)
Question, what are appropriate boundaries for visitors to powerhouse, what are, are there any, are there any cultural faux pas or etiquette things that you want visitors to know,

Joey Crutchfield (29:02)
yeah, and this is how I say as an emcee, and I'll go to a powwow, I ask the committee, what is your protocol? If your protocol is, when I come to your house, I take my shoes off, I have a choice. Don't go to your house or take my shoes off. So that's the same thing I do when I go to a power I ask, what is it? The main thing is just, it's just basic respect. For example, it's considered improper to go and text somebody that a regalia I saw David. I know Dave. I know Dave since he was a young man or teenager, really. I mean, you know, but he has his his medallion on, but I didn't touch it. I looked at it. I mean, and we know each other. I mean, you know we're you know we have a we have a good relationship. We know each other, but that's just basic respect. I would say, just listen, respect. Ask, you know simple thing, like taking a picture. Most people, Indians love to be photographed, but it's always a good idea say, Hey, can I take your picture? And you know, because you know, you know what, with your mouth eating a hot dog. But just ask. Okay, that's, that's what I would say, basic respect. Thank you guys. I really appreciate you beat me loud. Thank you, Travis too, for thinking about me. Thanks.

Travis Dunn (30:29)
So, I just want to say thank you all for coming out tonight. It means a lot and wonderful speakers here, really good friends of mine. I grew up with these guys, and they've done a just great folks. And so I also wanted to thank the Library staff for having me, and with this include my capstone project with pow wow photographs, I'll explain in a second to kind of piggyback off of the wampum belt talk. So we'll get at it. So this talk will help explain how my research project of creating an online database via collection of locally sourced photos, documents how the outward cultural expression of Native American communities of North Carolina and Virginia has evolved through the years, also analyzing outward cultural expression through the lens of public tribal events such as pow wows and other community sponsored cultural programs like homecomings, the main objective of my project is provide research space for engagement with Native Americans, for better academic representation of themselves, and foster good community relationships between academia and Native American communities. It would also try to raise cultural awareness of Native American tribes and communities in North Carolina and Virginia. So the idea of crowd sourcing photos of local powwows from the affiliated community stem from a final project assigned to me by Dr Helen Dixon. And the assignment not as large as the scope of this project, inspired me. It, uh, it made me really, you know, ask myself, well, could I help create a space that's, you know, welcoming and and really adds to the the culture of the university and so to my knowledge, there's there's little research regarding outward cultural expression in Native American communities of the southeast, specifically in the form of pow wows and other community cultural events. Dr Dixon suggested me to use the Omeka s program as a website development program, and she said she would happily be the faculty administrator for the site. Now, since the Emeka s program is administered through East Carolina Joyners Library, Digital Collections. I've had the pleasure of working with just awesome library staff, and I can't say that enough, I really can't say that enough. A crowdsourcing the photographs for the collection is what makes this online database project provide better representation of Native American communities. Receiving photos taken by participants of the event and community will provide academia a chance to literally see things from that participant community's perspective. I began to think of all my personal contacts, and I was like, Well, how can I organize this project? And so I took took advantage of Facebook. I was like, Oh, it's a great organizing, too. A lot of people have Facebook. And growing up, I've seen people post photos online of pow wows. I've been to and danced at and sang at. It's like, this is a great format. And so I decided to create a Facebook group called southeastern powwow photo project, North Carolina and Virginia. I initially shared the group just with my own Facebook friends, and then I started sharing it with other Native American affiliated Facebook groups that I was a part of. And then I knew a bunch of local powwows going in the area, so I was I decided to go to them and take pictures and talk to people about my project at the powwow, and it was received really well. I went to Virginia Tech powwow. I went to our powwow here, set up a display table, and my goal was to create, was to collect photographs over the years. So older photos, newer photos, because I would like to pretty much just, you know, analyze and examine how cultural expression changes throughout the years in the Native American communities in North Carolina and Virginia, and like Joey was talking about, we couldn't express ourselves in the way that the communities really wanted to for a very long time. And so I decided this project would be a great way to try to capture that, try to capture those efforts of cultural revitalization through the years, so that we can have this database for scholars and also for the Native American communities to say, Oh, hey, that's my grandma back in the day, or, Hey, that's, that's my grandpa, you know, stuff like that that can really add to people's lives. And so I was like, this would be a great way to do that. And so right now, to date, I have about 200 photographs on the website, and just for y'all to go through here, this picture is from Dave's job. Touch, roar. But I've made different pages, separated by the tribes, but also a bunch of other inter tribal groups. So with pow wows, you have groups that you know, different tribes come together say, hey. So for instance, there's a group in Greensboro, and they say, Hey, you know, we're a bunch of Natives living around each other. Let's have a pow wow. Now, I do have those photos. I haven't put them up yet, like I said, this ongoing project, but this, this powwow, was about two weeks, a couple weeks ago, and so they were like, Hey, let's just put one on, so you don't have to be from a specific tribe. Sometimes tribal organizations will get together and put on a powwow. And so I talked to plenty of people about it, and I've actually gotten some some of these photos are really professional looking, right? It's because I've been fortunate to find three hobbyist photographers to go around and take these pictures while, well, I can't go to all the pow wows, because sometimes pow wows go for there's three on the same weekend in Oklahoma. You can go to five in a week sometimes. So, you know, can't be everywhere at once. But so what's the best way to document this? But have, you know, the public be a part of this project. And so they join my facebook page and they upload their photos after they get done finishing up, putting the finishing touches, they're like, Yeah, great. I'd love for you, for you, for you guys, to have this. And so far, it's just been awesome. So I got three professional photographers doing that, and some of their photos are over here. It's just really amazing. But I also have photos from folks that just show up and take it with, like their iPhone, like this, this one I took on my iPhone of the MC had our pow wow here. So sometimes you could tell a difference, and sometimes you can't but, but, like I was saying, I have most of the tribes in North Carolina up here, and I have a few Virginia tribes, but also pow wows, like Joey said, they we they happen at certain times of the year, depend on when the community wants to happen. So it's kind of hard to get it all in one upload. And I guess it's the best way for me to say and so there's probably another good reason why it's an ongoing project, so I can really try to capture as much as I can, and like I say, it's, it's been, it's just been such a fun project for me to work on. And I get to develop relationships with people that, you know, say, Hey, check this out. Come check out ECU. You know, I could promote the school in a way, but also helped me in my further career. But taking the time to upload the photographs is a true labor of love, but the images provided make up for all that effort. And so I received a lot of support so far, and I've been very blessed. The project has even inspired one local Native American to create a Facebook page for the community called North Carolina pow wow photo drop to upload photos taken from recent events. I was honored when he told me that I inspired him to do that for the community, and he gave me permission to utilize those those pictures of his Facebook page. So like I said, this is an ongoing project that I hope to continue to work on for a while, and hopefully it'll be a nice resource for Native American communities and academia alike. There are not many sources like this in academia specifically dedicated to pow wows of regional tribes that I've found. I hope this online database adds to and furthers research into the betterment of representation of Native Americans in Virginia and North Carolina. I would like to thank Dr Helen Dixon for inspiring the project. I would like to thank the wonderful staff at joiner library for all their efforts and questions answered for me, tons of questions, they've been so helpful and just very grateful for everyone. And finally, I would like to thank the many participants that have donated thus far to that base and without the support from the people listed above. It. Just would not come to fruition. Thank you all for your time. Thank you.

Alston Cobourn (40:10)
So yeah, we do have some time for what time is it exactly? But we do have time for questions. So yeah, we can take questions for Travis. I did want to ask you, do you know if the Native American organization, acne, oh, here on campus is, has any other sort of events planned for American Heritage Month?

Travis Dunn (40:31)
I don't think we have any plans for Native American Heritage Month, but we are planning for the pow wow, and that's usually in in spring, yeah, in the spring, yes, ma'am.

Audience Member (40:41)
And it'll be there is a, they have a Facebook page that you can find information about that. Yes, yes. They did it in the Student Center last year. It was, it was, traditionally,

Travis Dunn (40:54)
Traditionally, we've held it bottom off College Hill when I was an undergrad here. And then it moved around to Minges for a long time. And now we got a Student Center, which is really nice. I like the Student Center setup in our setting and the parking is a lot better now.

Audience Member (41:16)
So. How successful have you been in finding some of those, like, really, and I'm sure, probably been difficult early pow wow photographs, like 1980s early 1990s Have you, have you found much of that? And then, have you seen just, just from what you've seen? Have you seen any sort of shift from the few maybe, photographs you found? So

Travis Dunn (41:40)
that's great question. I have come across some and but is there a few and far between? And that's just it. With a with a participant based research project like I have going on with a community involvement, I kind of got to spread the word and let the community come to me. And it can be a little disheartening at times. I'm just waiting for photos, waiting for photos, waiting for photos. So, you know, I get some and but I think, and I have a scanner to the staff on joiner has been really kind, and let me borrow a scanner for that purpose too. But right now, it's just mostly photos that they put up on Facebook. No real hard copies, but great question. But I have noticed, like in a change of technology, I believe that we're getting more recent photos because everyone has a phone in their pocket nowadays.

Joey Crutchfield (42:35)
I was gonna say the 80s, 90s are gonna probably be from people like me, who are challenged, or people maybe they're not still here, you know? So it would be probably just someone taking a bunch of photographs and just to hear

Travis Dunn (42:53)
Yeah, and then I can sort it and add it to what trouble then it was related to?

Alston Cobourn (42:59)
Yeah, thank you for asking that. That reminds me, I don't think we've talked about this. We do have some 90s powwow, powwow photographs in that collection. So that might be something where I don't remember if any of them have we've digitized some of the photographs, but I don't remember if we digitized those, but we could do something like digitize them, add to the ECU Digital Collections, and then, like, link them to your site or something like, Do you know what I mean? We should probably talk about that. I know there's a few from the 90s in there for [Acnea] specifically.

Travis Dunn (43:32)
I mean, I have people I can go to, like Joey and raid their house and stuff, but it's just not as much fun. Rather Be polite in this way, give them to me when you bump to

Audience Member (43:47)
Yeah, so I'm just curious. I grew up in the area of, like, [sax ball], right off the hall River, and that area has seen, I know, way back when there was a lot of Native American activity back there, and it's getting heavily, heavily developed in some areas. Do you folks worry at all about missing sites or locations, or anything like that, when it comes to the development that we see across the state right now? Do you worry at all for the integrity of any of these sites, or,

Travis Dunn (44:13)
Oh, yeah.

Audience Member (44:15)
So do you want to see anything done about it?

Travis Dunn (44:17)
Do you want the archeological perspective, do you want the public I'll give you my perspective. I did archeology for a while. I worked for the College of William and Mary when I graduated from ECU in undergrad, and so I was doing cultural resource management, which I believe is still something that they offer here, which is where you go out, and a lot of times you hope to find nothing you really do. But there DOT projects, stuff like that. There's there's a law where you have to go and survey and look. And so there are in that area, I know there's a Native American Rights organization called Seven directions of service that does a lot highlighting those kind of environmental impacts onto, you know, potentially cultural heritage sites. So I, you know, I'm worried. I'm not really worried because I am and I'm not, because I look at in a realistic view of development. You drive on 264 between here and Raleigh, you're running over all sorts of sites. I mean, they did the highway 540 expansion. That was a big write up in the paper, and they found all, you know, there's, they knew, there's also the state knows where some of the stuff is, and the job with with that, the CRM is, well, depending on your boss, is, can we mitigate that? Can we mitigate the highway going right through the through the site? And so sometimes you can, sometimes you can't. And really, honestly, it comes down to money.

Joey Crutchfield (45:58)
For me, I would rather the sites not be disturbed. If we look in the 30s and 40s, when a lot of the highway developments going in Virginia, there are ancestor remains in somebody's basement that their great grandfather had. They're still stuck in a basement someplace. And, you know, I was able to be part of repatriation ceremony, returning some of those ancestral bones and back into the ground, but there's still lots of things that we don't know about, so it can't be disturbed or at least paved over. I wouldn't have that then it dug up, and that's what that's just my personal opinion.

Travis Dunn (46:39)
I'll say most people would want to just leave it alone, because you don't want the headache dealing with all that. There's a lot that goes into dealing with it, especially if you have human remains. Great question, I hope we answered it.

Audience Member (46:52)
Yeah, that was exactly what I was looking for. Yeah.

Audience Member (46:58)
May I know the significance of your pendants?

Joey Crutchfield (47:03)
Mine is actually an elder gave this to me, she was from the Shinnecock nation, and it's a beaver tooth I wore today. Someone asked about it, and I said, I can't say what I really said. And ladies here, I can't say what I really said, but I said something to the point where I wasn't gonna take any stuff, but I used another word, and I was gonna just chop them down. But no, really, I just wore it in in in honor of her as well.

David Locklear (47:34)
Yeah, and mine is completely for show. I've become a professional Indian over the years. So this is all professional, you know, for us natives here, and I say natives everywhere in North America, floral designs is always a popular design among our our beading in our crafts. So this is very traditional to the area. And the beads are traditional, these glass beads. So we became modern natives. There is bone beads here. There's a deer, but in between there's glass so and like I said, this is pure show. You know, if I was to do a more traditional medallion. It will be, for me, it will be more of like a wampum style medallion.

Audience Member (48:32)
I have a question about wampum we're talking about even today, if, like, clay beads still sort of carrying a message, right? They could also carry a message. And I'm wondering, how hard is it to make wampum today? How hard is it to access the resources?

David Locklear (48:50)
We have people that are that are very talented in collecting the wampum shells and making those beads. However, it is difficult to find wampum. It has got more challenging over the years because there are natives that use wampum shells to make nice jewelry, and at powwows, you'll go to powwows and you'll see a lot of wampum jewelry been sold. So so it has become more challenging. What we've been able to do over the years is keep some of our traditional wampum belts and strings that was made back in the 1800s and 1700s so like I was saying, Those wampum keepers that we have, they can tell all the stories and all the information about those wampum belts. They have become experts in maintaining that wampum and keeping those stories going, and understanding behind the wampum strings and the wampum beads or the wampum belts, but creating more wampum tends to be more of a modern task. Now some of the young pow wow guys will make wampum belts of their own, in their own style, to dancing powwows and different events. But because of that, and because of the vending at powwows and selling water, it has become more difficult. Yeah.

Joey Crutchfield (50:14)
More commercial.

David Locklear (50:15)
Yeah, more commercial.

Joey Crutchfield (50:16)
Usually they're using modern tools to do it. In some cases.

Audience Member (50:23)
Question, what's the relationship between names like Tuscarora and names like [meherrin] and Lumbee like is there is, is that kind of equivalent to like what's going on with [Haudenosaunee] versus like [Seneca mo flock] type stuff, or I'm just trying to understand what's the relationship between all of this, if that makes sense, I'm sorry.

David Locklear (50:49)
So, so there's a lot of Tuscarora genealogy among the tribes here in North Carolina. And Tuscarora was a predominant tribe in North Carolina and Virginia, like Joy was saying North Carolina, Virginia didn't really have a border. They were kind of together, but there's a lot of genealogy here, still among the tribes. That's very Tuscarora, you know, or I would call very Iroquois, because the Tuscarora Iroquois in their language.Tthe relationship between the other nations up north, and as you read through history, and the way I've been taught and understand it is that we always had a relationship between with the Senecas of the five nations up north. So the Senecas, when you read history, you'll see that they were constantly coming down, trading and communicating, and there was, you know, smaller wars and battles going on that there had to be communication about. So possibly a mixture of some Seneca, but over the years with tribes in North Carolina, because some of them have have lost a lot. Some of them actually lost their identity, their traditional name on what came out of that was the state tribes that you have today who have names that they've created over the years to identify themselves, because they they lost their identity that they they didn't understand the genealogy of of of who they were, so they created a name to identify themselves. Now, we don't think of those people as any lesser or any greater. We just think, okay, these are Indian people. We live with them in peace, even though there's misunderstanding about some genealogies, or, you know, we still understand that, you know, we're people that have to live together, and we pile all together and do everything together. I don't know if I explained that well.

Travis Dunn (52:54)
I think you did great. I just want to add like, like, with the Meharry, there's meherrin river. But obviously the meherrin was before the meherrin River. So yeah, it's just an Iroquoian name, but meherrin are they they're Iroquoian, And they came from Virginia and migrated down to where they live now, near Murfreesboro, under the protection of the Tuscarora at the time in Bertie County. That's why they moved down, because they could communicate, and they could communicate, hey, I need help. And so they moved down, and that's why they're where they are today.

Joey Crutchfield (53:30)
And we're talking about in that time, historically, it's happening so quickly. Think we think things happen fast. Now, disease was wiping people out, you know, boom, boom. I mean, you know, you go in, and then before you know it, it gets your elders and your children first, and you're losing everything. And it's happening so fast, so fast. And so people are just trying to hang on. And so when they go and hide in a the swamp, so Robinson County, they were all over the place with all the great, dismal sponsors. You know, they're all coming together. And, you know, they kind of been trading with each other for a long time, so they know of each other, but they're just trying to survive.

David Locklear(54:09)
And because of war, there was just a regrouping. You know, they come out of wars where they were massacred. So their only allies were the were the neighboring tribes so, so there is a mixture and a mingling of of the Algonquins and the Iroquois here in North Carolina and the Sioux on Yeah, great question.

Audience Member(54:34)
I just announced my question. By January, [my keys], I am just curious at all. At some point, all three of you, I think, have used the phrase, that's how I was taught, or that's what I was taught. And I'm just curious if you could speak on how you were taught. Was it a lot of word of mouth? Was there any formal trade or formal education within your tribes? I just I would love to hear how it is that you were you were taught, or what your experiences are.

Joey Crutchfield (55:01)
For me. For me, it was that relationship, excuse me, with the parents and grandparents. I was fortunate that I lived in the house with my grandparents, with my mother and father, and it would be one family would get married and no child get married and come back and then they have enough money, they would leave and go get their house, everything so, and I was one of the last ones. I got to live with them. So being having that relationship, because mother and father working, I'm there with my grandfather and my grandmother and Lady, just my grandfather, that relationship there and listening to those stories, that's that was for me, just watching observing, because that's, you know what we do, you watch and observe and everything and but that's not unlike most people my age in here, we had that kind of relationship with our grandparents. Younger people, maybe not so, because they're moved away so much. But for many of us, we got to live, if not, live with them, spend a lot of time with them. So for that, for me, was just watching and observing and listening.

David Locklear(56:10)
So so for me, you know that that is a big way that we, you know, amongst Indians, we identify how we learn. We always say this is how I was taught. We say that because we don't really write anything down, like we don't record anything by writing it down on paper, the music, the song that you heard me sing, there's no musical notes for that. I can't write that down for you. The only way we learn this is to be an expert in memorization. You have to be an expert in it. When it comes to being taught songs, taught to learn language, when it comes to learn certain speeches that we do in our long house, or certain protocols, it's all by memorizing. You have to be there. You have to practice it. You have to continually go over. And we have elders that teach us that this is the way we used to do it, and this is the way we need to continue to do it. And by you know, that's how we learn. We are expert in memorizing. And some of the songs I forget, and I have to go back and listen to them again. I've got real savvy at recording songs, you know, I got real savvy at recording language. Sometimes we don't allow pictures and video and but I have got little a little sneaky at taking pictures, you know, because that helps memorize. So when we say this is the way we've been taught, we're really saying that this is the oral history that we have behind what we know about this and everything's oral for us, there is no way to teach you how to make a pow wow outfit like you can come and learn how to sew and book your powwow outfit is going to be your own powwow outfit. It's going to be your colors, feathers in certain places where you want to put them. Your style of beads, it's going to be yours. And that's the way we carry on our tradition. Make it your own.

Joey Crutchfield (58:18)
I think it's also giving honor to that ancestor that taught you when you were saying this way. Because when you're saying that, you're memorizing what they said, and you're kind of saying it. So that's another thing is, is giving honor to them as well? Yeah. And then again, there's not one right way. It's not one right way. So we say this is the way I would talk our creation stories are different. I mean, we see that, that they're similar, but there are different, different things going on, which is what culture is about.

Travis Dunn (58:52)
For me, I mean, I'm not enrolled my mother's wife, but my grandfather, who I grew up with, yeah, he's lumpy. Tuscarora, so my family has had ties on that way for years, and I've always stayed there, always been back and forth, and I've always known that, yeah, real mix like, yeah, you're Indian.

Joey Crutchfield (59:14)
When I met his grandfather, it was his grandfather, I said, Travis, my grandfather. Yeah, you're colorful.

Travis Dunn (59:26)
And like, I met Joey at Conley. He was a teacher at my high school because my mother's family's from Greenville, and so I just naturally went to someone I was comfortable being around, because, let's just be real. There's not a lot of people that look like Joey, and my grandpa and Dave around here is, you know, and I think that's really why I really gravitated towards you. And Joey taught me a lot. But I've also had to go out, and I've traveled the country, going to different pow wows. I've been to Denver, I've been to all sorts of places. I've. Up in New York this this summer alone, I went up in New York, Massachusetts, Rhode Island. I think we might go to Seminole in January. So well, you know, it's just, it's something that you learn, but it's hard because, like we've said, everyone has their own protocols. Everyone has their own way of doing things. And so that's why we also say this is how I was taught, because we it's just different. And pow wow, some of these dances are are shared, and that's how things came to be in the pan Indian movement is during cultural revitalization in the 70s, 60s, 70s, 80s, on just starting to get permission to have our dances again. We're learning who we are again. We haven't lost who we were. We always knew it's Indian, but now we're trying to not have to prove to the public, and that's another thing about outward cultural expression. We're not proving to the public that we're Indian. We're just saying that we've always been Indian, and I think that's a great way to end it. Any other questions?

Audience Member(60:06)
I was fortunate enough to read copies of breathing sweet grass at my library. I don't know if any of you guys have heard of that, or books with titles like indigenous ingenuity or inventions made inventions made by indigenous people, and now I'm really interested in indigenous philosophy and ethnobotany. Do you guys have any recommendations for books, resources, bloggers, even places I can learn more?

Joey Crutchfield (61:40)
I'm reading a book right now by Dr. I think Bauer is her name, she teaches at the University of Tennessee, and she's written a book about the Catawbas. But what I really like about the book, it's, it's from the woman's perspective, which is really good. It is an indigenous woman writing about Indian women, which is really, really good for me to read, and basically southeastern women, even though it's two years towards the Catawbas, because the women were the ones who kept the pottery going in their in their in their tribe, their nation, for all those years. So I think it's called, oh, something and something about women's role in the Catawba nation from 1700 to whatever. But think it's Bauer B, A, U, E, R, something like that. Look up Catawba women University of Tennessee and see if it pops up. Yeah, that's an excellent book to read.

Speaker 7 (62:41)
I think we have a copy in our collection.

Joey Crutchfield (62:44)
You have it? Did I get her name right?

Unknown Speaker (62:48)
Yes, Brooke Bauer.

Joey Crutchfield (62:52)
Brooke Bauer, okay, and what was her last name?

Unknown Speaker (62:55)
Bauer.

Joey Crutchfield (62:55)
Okay, good. Okay. Have you read the book?

Unknown Speaker (63:02)
Not yet.

Joey Crutchfield (63:02)
Okay. I'm enjoying it. Any other questions?

Speaker 3 (63:06)
One last, one last. So I heard you say a few things about, hey, a lot of these North Carolina tribes are sort of related, intermingled. We pow wow together. But then there's all these, like State Tribe pow wows, right? How often do all these tribes actually get together in North Carolina or Virginia and pow wow together? Or do they typically keep it more separate?

Travis Dunn (63:34)
Well, from my research and growing up, they've always been pow wowing together, like, like Joey said earlier, the [chickahominies] had a vital role into helping the [Haliwa-Saponi] establish their pow wow. And I've seen that because they shared the rabbit dance with them [Chickahominies] have a rabbit dance that they shared with [Haliwa-saponi], that they do in their culture classes today,

Unknown Speaker (63:54)
Canoe dance too.

Travis Dunn (63:55)
Oh they canoe dance? They gave that to them too. So there's another example of that cross border, you know, interstate pow wow highway. But a lot of these, a lot of these pow wows, all these people. There's a thing called pow wow people, I guess it's a phrase, pow wow people. We travel. We go all across the country, and so lot of times we stay regionally, especially when gas prices get high. And so, you know, if you want to pow wow, you know where to go. It's like, oh, well, we get up this weekend. Oh, they're having theirs this weekend. So a lot of these people, when you go through and look at the website, which I hope you all do, you'll notice a lot of the same people. One, there's not a lot of American Indians, okay? Two, there's not a lot of pow wow people. Okay, so you got a subset of American Indians, and you got a subset of pow wow people. So you're looking at a micro culture, of a micro culture, in a way. And so that's why a lot of these people are that's how I met Dave. Is traveling around the pow wows and talking with Dave, you know, just meeting people. But I do know of unity conferences. They have their state recognized conference of where a lot of state recognize tribes. Together, and they have, like a little small powwow with all them. But I guess that would be, like the most specific pow wow that I can think of, other than just everyone. Yeah, love use this [Christian] it's all good.

Joey Crutchfield (65:11)
I think it would. This is my opinion that if each university hosted one big powwow, and all the universities would go to that one school, that one year. It would it because it just be so big. And the reason why I said it because sometimes they're competing against each other, because there's only so many weekends that could do it. So if you had one at Carolina, one at state, one at Duke, one in East Carolina, whatever it is, then all those students could go. I think it would be really effective. I'm not sure if that will ever happen, but I like the idea, and everybody contributed to

Speaker 7 (65:43)
Did that answer your question?

Unknown Speaker (65:48)
Yes.

Speaker 1 (65:49)
I know the tribes in North Carolina, you mentioned the Unity Conference. Well, that Unity Conference is usually in March, and all the tribes come together to that, and they just share ideas on housing, share ideas on school, and they also have, they have a pow wow, and it showcases a a North Carolina Indian pageant that's there but, but they also do other different activities. Like to have an art show with the adults against the adults, and then they have art show against the students. So they incorporate a lot in that. And some powwows, some tribal powwows, have grown from that Unity Conference, especially the organization, organization powwows like metro line organization, Indian organization in Charlotte and a Guilford native organization in Greensboro.

Mickey Elmore (66:49)
There's a strong tradition in my mother's family that her grandmother from down in Georgia, who was a Cole was an Indian and like most folks, I haven't found any evidence of it, but I have read somewhere that the tuscaroras that are there a lot of Coles in that that tribe, and I have read that they are real reluctant to address genealogy among the tribe? Can you address that point?

Speaker 1 (67:28)
Yeah, genealogy is a complex issue for us as Tuscarora, it's because we share information among our families, because a lot of us are kin in my community. But when it comes to doing genealogy, it's kind of your own personal research that you have to do and go out for so. So when someone does come in and they say that, you know, we, we have this last name, this is this a surname among your people? Well, sometimes we're unsure because we're only familiar with our own genealogies, you know, in our own cousins, our own family. So just like the name Cole, Cole, see right off, I'm not familiar with it so, and that's partly because I'm not a genealogist. I'm only, I'm only a genealogist for for my family, you know, knowing my own family, but, um, but we do have genealogists and, um, you know, sometimes getting in their circles is kind of difficult because they have a lot of people coming to them wanting to know genealogy. So that's, that's part of the challenge is trying to find out, you know, if you have that lineage. Um, if there's Tuscarora there, or if there's not Tuscarora there, and you can get on ancestry.com and see last names, but it those last names doesn't tell you if you're Tuscarora or not. So. So the genealogists and my tribe are very secretive because of a lot of the stuff they're having to work with and but, like, I always tell people that, you know, it's important for you to push and do that research on your own and find out where you're from.

Joey Crutchfield (69:11)
And important for us to recognize each other.

David Locklear (69:13)
Yeah.

Joey Crutchfield (69:14)
Hello brother.

Travis Dunn (69:17)
But it wouldn't hurt. Like, maybe sending an email to the tribe put me in contact with your genealogists, and whether they get up to you or not? Yeah, I hope they do.

Joey Crutchfield (69:27)
But I'll say that it's a fear thing too amongst us, and that's because of sometimes when outsiders come in, they take over. So there's a there's a reluctant to, you know, you know, there, how many people come and say on this and this, but have you done anything in that community? Have you established any relationships? Have you have any ties and pow wows upon some of it? But it's more than just that. It's, you know, when Travis first started on this journey, I told him I. Said you're gonna have it really hard, because you're going to get rejection from the white side people, and you're going to get rejection from the Indian people. Was I wrong?

Travis Dunn (70:09)
No.

Joey Crutchfield (70:10)
Until, until they knew him as a human being, and once they knew him as a human being, now they can't do without him, you know, because they know he knows, you know. But it had to do the hit. He had to like they talked about, you have to know it. And again, those relationships bring those relationships together, and then people know who you are.

Travis Dunn (70:35)
Like, I was fortunate to grow up with my grandfather, who knew it was ended, but since my parents divorced, and I went back and forth a lot. There are some families down home where he grew up, where they didn't really know him too well, because he moved away in the 80s to get a better job. And so when you go back to make those reconnections, it's, it's very much a you need to be as respectful as you can. And because you're, kind of invading people's space there, and even though you you might think you have a right to be in that space, it's really up to them.

Joey Crutchfield (71:11)
Good question.

Alston Cobourn (71:13)
Well, thank you all coming. We'll be around for a few minutes, if you have more questions. Please come in, please look at the exhibit, and please have great night.

[End of Recording]