[This text is machine generated and may contain errors.]

Phillip Dixon, Sr.
Narrator

Alston Cobourn
Interviewer

October 26, 2022
Greenville, North Carolina

AC: (00:00)
Hello, my name is Alston Cobourn, and I'm here today with Phil Dixon. We are at Joyner library, and it is October 26 2022. And we are going to talk this morning about Phil's life. So could you please start by telling us your full name and when and where you were born?

PD: (00:26)
Phillip Right Dixon, Senior. I was born at home in Wake Forest, North Carolina on Chestnut Street.

AC: (00:34)
When, did you say when?

PD:: (00:34)
March 26, 1949.

AC: (00:42)
What did your family do for a living when you were young?

PD: (00:46)
My dad was a carpenter and handyman at Wake Forest college. And it was only an enrollment of about 2000 students and he was a one man handyman. So if you needed something painted, or broken or replaced, or light bulb replaced, or some minor repairs, he was the person who was called upon. And the college stayed there until I was about seven. And then they moved to Winston Salem, which is a big blow to the small town.

AC: (01:11)
I can imagine. And then your mother.

PD: (01:14)
My mother was a stay at home mom for a while and then was a cashier at the Piggly Wiggly. And then got a job at the ANP, the Atlantic and Pacific tea company which was an upscale grocery store, and then got an opportunity to work in the warehouse, grading eggs, where you would hold up eggs to the light and see if there was an embryo developing or some defects. And she she loved that job because the warehouse had a store where if there were damaged goods cans, were the labels missing or dent in the can you could buy it very cheaply. And so you know, whatever she needed for supper, she would just drop a can and go buy it for 10 cents on the dollar.

AC: (01:57)
That's wonderful. When When do you remember first becoming aware of East Carolina?

PD: (02:07)
My mother had to go to work real early every day. But she would get me up and fix me breakfast at about 6am. And so I would watch the Today Show. And I would read the News and Observer newspaper at an early age I was 10/11. And I think it actually helped me become a better student because I was reading so much. But also was pretty conversive of what was happening in the world.

(02:34)
About that time, you know, the presidential elections were going on where Kennedy got elected. And so it was it was an interesting time. But I remember reading in the News and Observer, they had a very large picture in this on the sports page, maybe, you know, eight inches by six inches of an ECU football player. And they were playing in the Tangerine Bowl. And they had gone nine in one, one season and nine and one another season. And they had gone to the Tangerine Bowl two years in a row. And I remember thinking that we must be on the coast, you know, a seaboard or something. And where they got the name pirates, perhaps. But I remember being intrigued that they had a really good football team. And almost every teacher I had had gone to school here. And so when I was attending elementary school and junior high school and high school, it was surprising how many coaches and how many teachers were had gone to school here. And they were very big advocates of the school. And you know, we were really a teacher's college to a great extent then we were also the equivalent to the North Carolina school of the arts because our programs in music and art and theater, were just sensational. And we still are the biggest competition for the UNC School of the Arts. So I was in the ensemble, which was dinner jackets, and you sang and ballgowns

AC: (04:04)
What part did you sing?

PD: (04:06)
and I was second base, but it was a lot of fun. And we got to go a lot of places and sing and perform and but my teacher was an ECU grad. And the band director was an ECU grad. And so I was surrounded by people, you know, who had gone to ECU and I had an ninth grade teacher who had a son, Dusty Anderson who came here to play football. And when I was in the ninth grade, she said to me, you really ought to think about college. And that was just something out of the question in my family.

(04:39)
My mother, dad had a fifth grade education. And nobody had gone to college. And my mother really was a single mom, my dad had left when I was about 10. And so she needed me to work, you know, even while I was in school to help pay the bills and she was not in favor of me going to college. She was very much opposed.

(04:57)
Wanted me to be the assistant produce manager at the independent grocery lines and IGA food store. And that was a difficult thing to overcome really. So I had to do pretty much everything on my own. But when I came to school here, I had to be the most ill prepared student ever. Because I arrived a day early by bus and the bus in those days, we didn't have a four lane highway, you'd take a bus and it would go to Zebulon, Saratoga, Bailey, you know, all these little towns and it took you a half a day to get here. And when I arrived at the bus station downtown, you know, I walked with a suitcase and duffel bag to the dorms. And there's only one other person there and he was from Nassau in The Bahamas, and he too come too early. And we had to plead with a housekeeper to let us in. And he finally let us stay in a bed upstairs. And of course, we stayed up all night talking because I've never met anybody from Nassau.

(05:57)
He's still very dear friend. And his son came here to school. His brother came here to school as well. So made lifelong friends. But you know, he's, he had a British accent. He smoked British cigarettes, he listened to Calypso music. He, he was freezing. And this was an August because overnight, it got chilly, you know, compared to where he had lived. But, you know, we had a very grandfatherly type of person come to my high school on college day. And he was the representative of ECU. And it was East Carolina College at that time.

(06:32)
We didn't become a university until July 1 Before I enrolled. And, but he was kind, sweet, funny. And, you know, most of the representatives of the other colleges, there were younger people, but he just had a very fatherly or grandfatherly approach to things and so it was something I felt comfortable with. And Greenville was the perfect location in a way, because it was just far enough away from Raleigh took around an hour and 45 minutes to get here. But it was close enough, you know that you get home if anything happened. So had a good location, I had about 25 people probably from my high school class, come here to school. And that was another positive.

(07:14)
You know, I really loved having some friends here already. And but I hadn't had a high regard for the campus before I got here. And it was an exciting time because we've just been designated a university.

AC: (07:26)
That's what I was gonna say. Yeah. So you're right here and then that changed, how did it...

PD: (07:30)
I was the first class ever. I was a first class ever to come here for all four years as university and, you know, Dr. Jenkins, which was a legendary Chancellor. Yeah, you know, basically said, the Carnegie Foundation has criteria for determining when your university and we meet all that criteria. Here stands the university want to call it such well, in those days, the only university in the system was University North Carolina, was nor Cal State College UNCG was women's college.

(07:58)
There were very few women enrolled at state or Carolina, they've normally went to women's college and might transfer maybe their junior year into UNC, but not many women there. And you know, we did meet the criteria. And there were a lot of efforts to keep us from becoming University. And they finally had a bill introduced that would make also make North Carolina A&T State University a university, which they thought would doom the bill. And they thought there wouldn't be any support for. And then finally there was additions added to the bill to make every campus in the system, a university which they thought would kill it. But you know, if you represent Appalachian State College in Boone, how could you vote against it? If you're Pembroke State University, how can you vote against it? So all of a sudden, you know, everybody got named a university, but we were the only campus that had been through the process of meeting that criteria, really. And then we had a very forward thinking governor named Bob Scott, whose dad Kerr Scott had been Governor.

(08:58)
Scott dorm was named for his dad. He, he liked us. He was a farmer from Haw River, and he came to us about starting a criminal justice program. So we'd have more professional people in the prison systems and law enforcement and we did a big fundraiser for him down here in 69. I remember, but he formed a new university of North Carolina system. There used to be the consolidated University of North Carolina was simply UNC University, North Carolina State college, and women's college. Those are only three campuses. And then there was a State Board of Higher Education. And Cameron West was the director of that and it was all the other campuses. But we became the big dog in that group because we doubled our enrollment in about five years and Dr. Jenkins was such a visionary person and such an aggressive grower of the campus. And Bob Scott saw the need to expand the system to be just one system. It was not without a lot of fights.

(10:00)
The UNC system, in an effort to beat, we were politically winning a lot of battles. If you look at North Carolina, all the counties, if you look at a map of North Carolina, all the counties in the eastern part of the state are relatively small. And all the counties in the Western par of he state are very large, because the population wasn't large enough, you know, if you needed have, you know, 50,000 people to form a county, you know, it took a much bigger county in the western part of the state to get 50,000 people. So we had a lot more political clout in the East than the West. And so Dr. Jenkins, we go the General Assembly get money all the time for different things. And it was really frustrating for the UNC system, because UNC especially had always been the flagship and gotten all the money. And so in an effort to stop that from happening, the consolidated University in North Carolina added Charlotte College, which is just a commuter campus, not much more than Community College, really, at the time.

(10:57)
UNC Asheville was, the predecessor to them was Asheville Biltmore College, which was a good private school, supported by the Biltmore family, and then lets see, Wilmington College, which had been a two year college and then became a four year college, because if they added UNC Asheville, UNC Charlotte and UNC Wilmington, they had three very strong political bases in North Carolina. So they felt that would help them in the General Assembly, it did not. And so because everybody else sort of banded together. And so when that Bob Scott had the vision to bring everybody under one umbrella, it was a good thing.

(11:33)
The idea was, you know, it's going to be fairer than it used to be. For example, if we decided we wanted to have a PhD in nursing, and UNC-G wanted to have a PhD in nursing, there was a sort of competition between us to see who could put together the best program. And they picked the best program. And so, you know, it was a fairer allocation of resources. So that was a good thing. So there was, there used to be the Hertz used to be the leading car rental business in the country. And there was a company, Avis Rent a car. And they would advertise, we're number two, we try harder. And that was sort of East Carolina at the time, you know, we welcome the opportunity to play or compete with UNC or NC State. And, and we did you know, by the time I was a senior, we played NC State. And I think 70, for the first time, we beat them for the first time in 1971, in football, and we always had good baseball, but you know, there was this chip on the shoulder or attitude, you know, and we didn't have the doctors and the lawyers and the engineers, but we had a lot of school teachers who had a real impact on people across the state. And we had a group of ambassadors who really strongly supported us because they never had a good education, and felt they got a good degree. And then we got into nursing, you know, because of Walter Jones Jr. And we had a really good school of nursing, we've always been done real well on the state exams better than the other campuses, in fact, because we do a lot more clinical work. So I come here with a lot of pride in getting in college, period. And we had so many college students, though, who were first generation college students who've never been in college before. And it was a learning experience.

(13:19)
I remember looking at an old yearbook, I think I may have mentioned this to you once before, where there was a picture of a young country girl in a calico dress, with a Minnie Pearl hat on or something. And then you saw in the other picture, a senior this was a freshman and a senior who was a sophisticated flapper from the 20s you know, who was dressed to the nines and had pearls and really pretty fringy dress and, and, you know, it was sort of the metamorphosis that you go through when you start out in college and what you become through that experience. And that was certainly the case for me. I had a terrible aversion to giving a speech. I was just deathly afraid of getting up in front of a group and speaking speaking, I had very low self esteem. And I had a speech teacher here in theater arts program, who was actually the musical Annie on Broadway. She was a remarkable woman. And after I totally fell apart giving a speech in her class, the first time she said, let me see you after class. And I sat down with her and she said, I was scared to death, you know, right. She said, Where are you from? I said, Raleigh, she said, tell me about Raleigh. So well you know, North Carolina state college is there, Meredith College St., Mary's College, Peace College, banking center, state government center. It was really easy to talk about. And she said, Next time, I want you to speak about your hometown, Raleigh, right. And so the next time we had a class, the girl in front of me got up, and she was from Bear Grass, North Carolina, and she said, I'm from Bear Grass. It's about 85 miles east of Raleigh. So when I got up, I said I'm from Raleigh. It's about 85 miles west of bear grass, and everybody laughed and put me to ease And I was very comfortable giving the speech. And it just taught me some valuable lessons. And she, she was really good to me.

(15:07)
She shepherded me through, I guess the process, which opened up all sorts of VISTAs for me, you know, I thought I'd be or other people that I had wanted to emulate in life who I respected, were school teachers or coaches. And so I thought I'd be a history teacher and a coach. And then I decided, well, you know, gosh, business would be an interesting thing to do. You could be a banker and wear a suit every day work nine to five, have some prestige in the community. So I start a business. And then I took a business law course and I thought there was a person in the class one of my dearest friends Henry Gorham, whose father was an attorney, but he never practiced. He came out during the depression and ran a hardware store, but later became a practicing attorney and his brother Sam had become an attorney. And Henry said he was gonna go to law school and I thought that would be interesting. And we had a business law professor here, Wiley Schneider, who was just a wonderful professor, he formed a law society.

(16:05)
If you had any interest in going to law school, he would take you to the law schools, he would bring the deans here to speak it took us to Raleigh to the supreme court court of appeals. He took us to Washington DC on his nickel. And we saw the US Supreme Court. And I remember going to his home here in Greenville on and Lyndale Martinsboro road, and he had just a simple ranch home, but it was the, by far the nicest I've ever been in was just for hot dogs and hamburgers. I remember thinking, wow, that would be a great life to have. And, and he helped me a lot getting along in school. So at every turn here, I had all these people who were helping me and going out of their way, high school too you know, I remember a surprise was that I got named the captain of the football team.

AC: (16:52)
When you were in high school?

PD: (16:54)
when I was in high school.

AC: (16:55)
Yeah. And you went to?

PD:(16:56)
I went to Broughton High School and I went to Enloe High School. And when I was named the captain the football team, immediately overnight, I became popular. Now before that I'm a poor kid who lives in a government housing project Halifax Court, I don't dress well. I have a chipped tooth. I'm real self conscious about my appearance. I'm really tall and bulky. And but just because I was named captain football team, immediately I have a new circle of friends. But I recognize at the time, it was only because I was captain of the football team. I mean, you know, you see through that false friend situation. But all of a sudden I'm nominated to be a class officer and had to give a speech. I remember Mrs. Yarborough my Latin teacher called me aside and saying, Have you written a speech? She said, let me hear it. And I said something like, please support me as my, in my quest to be elected and I'll try to do my best to do a good job. and she said, probably need to say a little more. So she helped me with my speech. But you know, just people endear themselves to you by being kind to you. And I think Mrs. Anderson, whose son played football here, she knew I was shy and introverted. And she knew I didn't dress well and, you know, was poor as a churchmouse. And she knew that I was working 40 hours a week at a grocery store, you know, late at night, on weekends, and you know, she

AC: (18:27)
You did work in the grocery store by the time you were...

PD: (18:30)
By the time I was 14, I worked every day if I didn't have football or basketball or baseball or something after school, track, would go four o'clock and work till 11:30 Get up next morning 7:30 I was usually at school before 7:30 do a study hall trying to get my studies and I was pretty conscientious student. And when I wanted to, when I applied to ECU I got I got a scholarship. And then I got Robert Boudreau was financial aid officer. And he told me that because my finances family situation, I qualify for a national defense student loan at a low interest rate not to be repaid until nine months after I graduated. And I could get an equal opportunity grant. And there were all sorts of little things I was and I told you I had all these great jobs I had a bussed tables in the cafeteria and I worked as Hall proctor so I got my meals free, my room free and

AC: (19:31)
What dorm were you in?

PD: (19:32)
I was in Jones dorm to begin with but immediately got transferred over to Scott which was very nice dorm, to be hall proctor and that was a great job and I had it for all for three years of my four years in school. And you sort of maintained order, reported damage, confiscated booze, ran girls out of the rooms and you know, just maintained order and it was good job. We got to meet a lot of people and made some lifelong friends. And then I sold class rings I got a job working for Johnston's and I had a little glass counter about two feet by two feet in the Student Union. And between 11 and 12 everyday, I would just stand there. And if anybody wanted to order class, they were on display and get their ring size and their name and a deposit. And that's still 700- 800 rings a year, I got 50 cents for every girl's ring and $1 for every boy's ring so it really helped me financially because I was living on a budget of $10 a week, my first year, $15 A week my second year, $22 a week my third year, $25 a week my fourth year. And so I was really struggling with my my finances. And I told you, I think there were lots of opportunities to volunteer to be tested. And so in education psychology building, which is Speight. I would volunteer and get paid $5 for a one hour test.

AC: (20:52)
Oh right, when they were doing studies, research.

PD: (20:55)
and I remember I was at two o'clock appointment for a test. And the lady asked me what I had to eat that day. And I said, I haven't had anything to eat. And she said, why not? I said I don't have money. That's why I'm here. And she said, Well, you know about the student loan program. I said, No. She said, Well, you go that student association for $25. You have to pay it back before you borrow it again. But so began the process. And we borrowed $25 about every week from the SGA. But I remember going to the Student Union, which was in Wright annex, and I could get two donuts, two Krispy Kreme Doughnuts, a package of Lance orange NABS, a vanilla Pepsi and a newspaper for 52 cents. And that's my brunch. And I had I had a classmate who came from Enloe here, named Dan Summers. And Dan didn't stay in school, he dropped out of school, but his brother had been here in school. His brother been vice President of student body and was in charge of the homecoming parade. And so very early, I got recruited to be a marshal for the homecoming parade. And I later became in charge of the homecoming parade. I later became vice president student body like his brother had. And that was a good experience, because in those days, the homecoming parade was such a big deal.

(22:14)
We'd have the governor, lieutenant governor, state treasurer or Secretary of State, Secretary of revenue, every member of the Council State, all these politicians would be here we'd have 25 convertibles with politicians, we'd have 10 bands, every band in Eastern North Carolina, I wanted to come and be in our homecoming parade and be good to go the football game for free. And now you have to pay them. But back then they would voluntarily come and we had, you know, everybody had a float and you made it with chicken wire and tissue paper. And it was a big deal. And it was just it was that being it's like being the 50s it was just a really sweet time, you know, but I was so afraid of flunking out, I was really afraid that I was gonna flunk out of school. Now. What happened that

AC: (22:58)
Was that because you were having trouble? Or because you were selfconcious...?

PD: (23:00)
No, no, I just, you know, nobody in my family had ever been to college. I just didn't think I'd be good enough. Wasn't sure, but but one that God reaches down and touches your life in different ways. And when my dad left us when I was 10 my brother was only six weeks old.

AC: (23:16)
I was going to ask if you had siblings.

PD: (23:18)
And so I became his father. Poor kid. I mean, when he was when I was 11, and 12 and 13. He was one, two and three. And I had his full time care during the summer when mother was working. And so I don't know how he survived. I really don't. But it made me a little more mature. And then I worked and I helped out with the expenses and but I came to college. It was such a privilege to be in college. It was such a big deal to be in college, that I was just worried. But what had happened

AC: (23:50)
You were putting a lot of pressure on yourself.

PD: (23:51)
by my mother moving to this

[recording paused]
PD: (23:54)
I think it actually ended up being a blessing in a way that my mom and dad separated and I was forced to move to Raleigh. Because the school system, there was a much better school system

AC: (24:04)
Was that that was around when you were 10 is when you moved.

PD: (24:07)
And I had an incredible teacher. When I was in the sixth grade, Ms. Alread was from England. She was a World War Two bride. And had moved to the States. And she really sort of adopted me and helped me a lot. And she gave me a job as being in charge of audio visual. So I showed slides. You know, in classroom, they showed films, I was on the school patrol, which the Raleigh Police Department sponsored, where you had a White Army helmet, and you had a blue jacket and a sash across your chest and a bamboo pole with a sign that said, yield traffic and you'd help kids cross the street and you'd raise the flag. And that gave me some self esteem. And then I was I was really into biology and chemistry and botany and things that were not of that age appropriate study.

(25:05)
So I bring a frog in to dissect on earthworm or I bring in had extracted chlorophyll from a leaf or something. And so I think she she thought I might have some potential. And so she actually got me into a, an accelerated class in the seventh grade. So when I went to junior high school, I actually was not at that. At the school. I was at a church next door, where they had a class that had a dynamic teacher from Duke University, teaching science and math and had an incredible professor from UNC who was a history, English professor. And so I had the, you know, accelerated classes, I guess. And it was just a wonderful year, just a wonderful year.

AC: (25:50)
And what school?

PD: (25:51)
it was Hugh Morrison Junior High School, which had been the high school for Raleigh, until Broughton was built, Needham Broughton was built, and then it became a junior high school with the federal courthouse sits there now. And, and the I'd been in a car wreck. My mother was a very pretty lady. And she was a good dancer, and very personable and friendly and outgoing. So she was popular, and she dated a lot. And she was so poor, it was a big deal because she get to go out to eat, she'd bring home leftovers. And she she, you know, was gone a lot. So I was taking care of my brother Greg a lot. And, you know, so I had a I had a full plate, but I was a more mature student, I guess, because I had to change diapers and I had to bathe my brother and I had to take good care of him and Or try to. And so she was had a boyfriend. And they were in a terrible car accident with him driving a station wagon. And I was sitting in the passenger seat on the backseat. And I had my arm on the door, and a car ran a yield sign coming up from Hayes Barton swimming pool and ran right into us. And I cut this arm very badly.

(27:08)
I had three eight stitches across my arm and I had a blood vessel cut and bleeding profusely and cut my back and I was really seriously injured. And they needed me to lift weights to build strength back in my arm and my back when nobody lifted weights in those days. So all of a sudden, by the time I'm 14, I'm 16. We went 85 and I'm, I'm chiseled. I mean, I'm a man among boys in terms of size.

(27:36)
So my seventh grade teacher insisted, I mean, I didn't go out football, I didn't plan to go out for football. She made me go out for football. And so I did I became a captain and I was it wasn't that I was talented. It was just a brute strength and awkwardness. You know, it's just bigger than everybody else and tossed around like toys. And but that opened a lot of doors for me. And so I thought that would be my future in a way. It did open some doors for me. And I had a wonderful coach. Len Bower was his name [unintelligible] Enloe. Now was my football coach. He was a retired Marine, he'd been badly injured in the war had terrible scars on his face. And he took me to my first football game at UNC. And it was a real treat to get to go to a football game and have a daddy figure sort of in my life. And I really thought a lot of him he just was special. And so yeah, at every turn, like I said, I've had a lot of people who've helped me along the way and gave me good advice and counsel. But when I came here, you know, I started getting involved. I was the Lieutenant Governor of Jones dorm, which is a pretty meaningless job. But it exposed me to the elections committee. I got the on the Elections Committee, I became the elections chair. So I sort of ran the elections.

(29:05)
And I was I became the chairman of the university party. Just like you have Republicans, Democrats, we have we had parties, we had a student party, but a university party, and we ran against each other, we'd have slates that would compete against each other. And we did pretty well until about my junior year. And during the summer, we got smoked, all the independent candidates got elected because people were rejecting, you know, the traditions, and they didn't want to be labeled. And so Bob Whitley, who was an attorney in Kinston, who was the chairman of the student party, and I'm an attorney here, I was chairing that university. We got together and formed a new committee that ran a slate that included Bob and me and some other people. And we got elected, and we got elected by big landslide. And it was the first year that the university allowed the president of the Student Government Association to sit on the Board of Trustees.

AC: (30:04)
What year was that?

PD: (30:05)
That was 1970-71. And Dr. Jenkins was he he believed in giving the SGA the Student Government Association, a lot of authority, so we handled all the entertainment for the campus. And in those days, there were no men at state. I mean, no women at State and no women at UNC. So all the guys at both campuses come here to date because we had all beautiful women. And I mean, out of the Miss North Carolina pageant.

(30:33)
I remember one year that my sophomore year, the top 10 contestants of Miss North Carolina five were from ECU, three of the top five and Miss North Carolina. And so we had fabulous entertainment. I mean, we had Dionne Warwick, The Fifth Dimension, Kenny Rogers and the fifth edition. We had Flip Wilson, we had Chicago we had Ike and Tina Turner, we had Frankie Valli and the four seasons, I mean, the entertainment was spectacular here because Dr. Jenkins gave us control of the second largest budget in SGA had the country. Now they have a separate program now for booking entertainment. But we had a lot of money because we'd grown We doubled in size, you know, so we had a lot of student fees. And so we had a lot of excess funds. And, and we did a lot of things. We started refrigerator rentalss, we started the bus system, we put it the first message board out there across the mall, across the hall. The board is electronic now it's just a concrete block wall that had the football and basketball and baseball schedule on it.

(31:31)
We we actually tried to get the railroad to let us build steps down the there's a big ravine where the railroad is between the Belk dorm and the athletic campus. We wanted to put steps there and light and steps up so you won't get all muddy when you're crossing over because Minges was finished in December of my first year here, since first time that we played a Minges. And there's a long way to get the Minges, you know, if you had class on campus and you had class at Minges, you had to really hoof it to get from the main campus over there. We didn't have a bus system or anything. And we, you know, I was vice president body, and I started the pep band, a basketball game, and I started the pure gold dancers. Only because of this theater arts major who was in dance came to me and said, Will you help us start a dance team? It'll cost about $600 for uniforms. And I did that and they became very popular at basketball games. And we were really into promoting the athletics at ECU because we've done well, and but we had a civil war cannon. And we had, Dixie was our fight song. And we just didn't think that was right.

(32:45)
So I bought a pirate cannon that's still over there, the one that said the flagpole. I bought it in 1970. I went to Dr. Jenkins, his door was always open. His secretary just waved me through. I went and sat down in front of him. I said, I'd like to buy a pirate cannon instead of a civil war cannon. And I found one in Michigan or Minnesota or someplace. It's from 1715 and it's just a cannon but it will cost me $600 But it will cost me $2,000 to ship it here. And I said can you give me that money? And he said no. But you can take the ballot boxes for the elections and put them all over campus with and post some messages you know that you're trying to buy a cannon and like people donate quarters and dimes and nickels and maybe $1 occasionally and we raised that money and we bought the cannon and we had to we brought it back here, we had to build a carriage for it. We had to learn to shoot it and the first time we shot it we shot a football player. He ran right in front of the cannon and when you just you just wadded up all this junk you know put it in the cannon to to cause a compression When you had a fuse in the fuse, you had to really learn to time it. But when we first shot it, the concussion this player ran right in front of a wide receiver.

(34:02)
I think it was Tim Dameron. But he couldn't hear for about a quarter the sound just limited his hearing. So they made us move the cannon, but it was still cool to have a pirate cannon. And then I wrote every university in the country that had purple TCU, Kansas State, Seton Hall, there were people and they sent us all these ideas like purple pride was something we pushed and we had decals, we made cowbells, Mississippi State had cowbells, so we had all these cowbells made in purple and gave them out at games and, and it created a lot of enthusiasm. It really did.

(34:35)
We had a new coach called Mike McGee, who later became the AD at Duke and the AD at Southern Cal, and at South Carolina. But we you know, we were just really excited about, you know, starting to play State, Duke, Wake Forest, Carolina, a bigger schedule, you know, we were doing well. And so, I had a lot of fun. I really did have a lot of fun. And then I was the person who handled homecoming parade, you know, and but we, we had a very active SGA, I guess. And so, and we had the Attic nightclub, which was an incredible nightclub, one of the top five nightclubs in the southeast probably, if you looked at the bands who played the Attic, you would be stunned.

(35:15)
Yeah, the Pointer Sisters broadcast a national TV show from there. I mean, you know, so we saw had a great experience. But the other thing about being SGA president, it was the first time, it was the first time that they had a one year term for the SGA. It wasn't used to be just nine months and summer you were gone. Oh, but our year was the first year they did 12 month term, and they paid you. So I got $56 a month to be the vice president. And but I had an office and I had a secretary. So I learned to dictate, I learned to send letters and, you know, be politically active. And one day, one of the letters that came to us was from Terry Sanford, who had been governor, later President Duke University, and he was establishing a program called the state government intern program. And he was going to take one student from each of 25 universities in North Carolina, pretty much all the Publics and Davidson and Queens College and a few other campuses. And I applied for that. And he was trying to encourage people to go into public service. And he said, we'll put you up in one of the dorms at NC State, or Meredith College or someplace. And we'll we're going to teach you about North Carolina.

(36:29)
The challenges and opportunities that we have, the problems we face, what the future holds to encourage you to run for city council or of County Commissioners, run for the House or the Senate to get involved and make a change in the life of the citizenry. So I got assigned to the North Carolina Supreme Court. Now I'm getting to go to law school.

(36:50)
Can you imagine what it's like to work for the North Carolina Supreme Court, and I get to know all the justices, all the judges on the court appeals all the research assistants all the law clerks. I mean, it was it was fabulous. And the the attorney I worked for is Raymond Taylor. And he was from Washington, North Carolina. His mother had been the Clerk of Superior Court. And he was a real fine man. And he was doing work for the American Bar Association on unfair deceptive trade practices. And he helped me write an article. And he got it published in the American Bar Association's student lawer journal and economic news, well so my first week in law school, I have two published articles. And it really helped me because, you know, I immediately got some recognition that I didn't deserve probably, but I got to meet a lot of good people. And and when I was working in the Supreme Court is on the fourth floor of the Justice building. On the third floor was was Robert Morgan, who was our graduate. Who had been chairman of our board trustees been, you know, I've been in general assembly had been a US senator too, later. But he was a big ECU fan. And so we talked ECU all the time, and he would bring all the legislators down here for summer theater, to lobby and politic. And so that was a good experience.

(38:11)
When I went to law school. My my dean was Dixon Phillips. And my name is Philip Dixon. So every time someone would meet me there would be a pause about the name sounds familiar, but my girlfriend here who was one of the pure gold dancers, by the way, she would write me these passionate letters. I mean, we almost got married before I went to law school. But she just sent it to the law school and they would go to the dean. They thought it was the dean, you know, so for the first three days, he his secretary opened my letters and put them on his desk and he'd read them. And so finally he saw me to his office and said, tell her to us campus box 128 so it'll go to you. He said I'm so sorry. We didn't mean to open your mail. But he said, I feel like I know you pretty well. And did you write those, those articles? And I said, Yes. He said, Well, I'm looking for a one L first year law student to be one of the editors of the North Carolina law record to write about their experience of their first year law in school, also interview new professors, and also to talk about for to the alumni, you know, what's going on here.

(39:18)
[unintelligible] I got to meet all the new professors. I got to I was real popular because everybody wanted to be in the articles I wrote. And, but also got to know Dixon Phillips the Dean, which is really pretty cool. His son now is one of my good friends. We both were hearing officers for the state of North Carolina and mediators and arbitrators and but his his father later served on the North Carolina Supreme Court, excuse me, North Carolina Court of Appeals [unintelligible] court of appeals. And when I was in law school, and when I was in that clerkship that summer, I met one lady judge on the Court of Appeals, and her name was Naomi Elizabeth Morris. And she had been a professor of English literature at Atlantic Christian Teachers College, later Atlantic Christian College, now Barton College, and she was had her master's degree, so she was a much better educated person for her time than most people. And she was a stickler for grammar in detail in writing, that sort of thing.

(40:21)
She was engaged to be married, her husband got killed, her husband to be got killed in a car accident. And she went to a law firm in Wilson Lucas, Rand, Rose, and Meyer, Justice Meyer, of the North Carolina Supreme Court's law firm. And she did such a good job with the estate. Because she's a pretty sophisticated, intelligent lady. They hired her away from the college, paid her more money to be their office manager. That would be a paralegal today, but we didn't have paralegals back then. And after she did an incredible job as their office manager. When she was 39 years old. They sent her to law school. She was about the only woman in law school. She knew more about the practice of law than any of the professors because she'd been doing it for years. And she became the mother hen to all the law students was very popular. She also was from Wilson and she had known Jim Hunt, little Jimmy hunt, and she would refer to him when he was 3,4,5,6 years old, you know.

(41:16)
So when she got out of law school, he appointed her to as the First Lady, a judge on for appeals. And they would hear cases and panels of three. And I decided I wanted to work for her. She was from eastern North Carolina, she was real funny and nice. And but in the past, the justices of the North Carolina Supreme Court and the judges on North Carolina court of appeals would only take law clerks from their alma maters. So if you went to UNC, you took UNC personally to Duke you took a big person and wait for us to a fourth person. And we didn't have a law school. So but I applied for a clerkship with her and I had good credentials.

(41:57)
I've done well in law school. And I had good experience. I've worked with the SBI one summer and I've worked with the attorney Joe's office one summer in the spring court. And so when I'm waiting for the interview, the first thing she says to me, I don't think much of your school. She said when I was in school, actc Atlantic Christian teachers college and ECTC, East Carolina Teachers College, we play each other for this wooden bucket and basketball. And I've never been really impressed with the people I've met who graduated me and my hearts I'm heart- I'm heartbroken because here's a person who's not gonna give me a chance because she's prejudged everybody who's went to school here, I thought. And so I didn't tell her to go to hell. But I did about as politely as I could tell her to go to hell. And I said, Well, I got a good education ECU and I had PhDs teaching me as opposed to graduate students that my friends at state Carolina had. And I said, I competed well, when I got to law school, and so I feel like I gotta get education.

(42:56)
She wrote back started laughing. She said, You're hired. She said, I went to like Christian teachers college. And when I went to UNC, they treated me like a red headed stepchild one because I was a woman and one because I had gone to Atlantic Christian, and she said, I got a good education at Atlantic Christian. And she said, I don't know why people perceive that there's a difference in the education that you get sometimes. But anyway, so that was a good step. But then she was a real Stickler if you walked into her office, without your jacket, without your shoe shine. I mean, she'd sent me home to shine my shoes. She I mean, she was if I said kids, she's the kids are billy goats. It's children. And if you did, alumna, not alumni, you know, lay and lie I mean, Lord, she would she was strangle me if I miss messed up, lay and lie. So I mean, it was a good learning experience. And I'd write opinions for her because, you know, she had a mother who was quite sick so I tried to write opinions while she was gone. And so I'd write it is the contention of the defendant. She'd mark through it and sa the defendant contends.

(44:00)
So next time I'd write defendant contends she'd mark to and say it is the contention of the defendant. She was not gonna let me get an opinion pass without changing something. But you know, you learn a lot and you get to see good attorneys in action, you know, and I saw I got to pick a real good law firm to get to work for, and I did a lot of appellate work. When I first got out. I did law case for the Supreme Court for appeals and I taught appeals to the new attorneys for about five years. But, but I had I had an incredible experience when I was here. I really did. I just had a fabulous time. And, you know, we had so many students, I think I told you this, when we had lunch, who were so poor. And there were so many professors who just went way beyond Dr. Richard Todd offered to pay my tuition, books and fees. And I never asked him to, but it was sure reassuring know that I had somebody who was willing to help me if I needed it. And then they invite you out for supper. There was a church here that I went to, and the members of the congregation would invite college students home for Sunday dinner.

AC: (44:59)
Do you remember what church?

PD: (45:01)
First Christian Church. Yeah, I got involved in the church. And, gosh, I became a Sunday school teacher, I became a Sunday school superintendent. I was in the choir. I was a elder, a deacon and an elder, a trustee and Chairman church board later, but I mean, you know, and, but you know, what a wonderful thing for people to because every time you had dinner with lunch with somebody, you become part of family. I mean, they're, you know, if you had a flat tire dead battery, or you had something come up, you know, these are people who would be happy to help you. And happy to know you. And I met a real pretty girl with one of the families who was here in school. She was it was funny.

(45:42)
My one of my attorney brothers was the minister of education there, which is why I went first. And he later went to business school, Paul Allen, at Yale. And I remember him telling me I was a senior, I was vice president body, I was pretty popular guy. And livin large. And he said, I've got a girl want you to take out. That's really not interested. He said, really please. And so after a couple times, he said to me one day, he said, Look, we're having lunch at the Pizza Hut, why don't you join us.

(46:12)
So I went and had lunch, and there was this young girl there. And I was a junior, she was a freshman, or at least I thought she was freshman. And so I finally agreed to take her out at his urgings. And what I didn't know is her parents had sent her to summer school before her freshman year to just get acclimated. So she was 17 and had not even started freshman year yet. But I took her out the first time, and she came to the door dressed in a Sunday suit, a pink suit with button up to the top. And I took her to Lum's here, and I got asked her Do you want a schooner? And she said, Oh, yeah, let's get it was a big mug of beer. Her eyes got as big as saucers. You know, she didn't drink anything. But she was innocent as a doe. But she was the sweetest, sweetest girl and I dated are all through college and law school. And she kept breaking up with me because she wanted to have fun here. She was in Greenville. And I was I had Saturday classes, you know, you can see.

(47:08)
So she broke up with me a couple of times. And we she wanted me to, she didn't want to stay in Greenville. She wanted to come to Raleigh for at least a year. And so I took a job clerking for Judge Morris in Raleigh, and she couldn't get job Raleigh. Next year I took a job down here where I wanted to be. And she got a job in Raleigh, so it just never worked out for us. But she's a dear dear. She was a dear friend. She died this past year. And she she gave me her uniform from her pure gold dancing.

AC: (47:35)
What was her name?

PD: (47:36)
Julia Brooks Wilson. She was interior designer. And I gave that to the dance team. And for the trophy case over there. It was real nice. But when I was in Raleigh clerking for Judge Morris, I had a roommate, Jim Hicks, James Albert Hicks, who had been here in school, and he and I were really good friends. And another friend named Ed Harper, who's on Norcross North Supreme Court clerking for the Chief Justice. So I had some circle of friends there. And I said, Well, let's, let's get involved with the local chapter of the Alumni Association. And it wasn't much, you know, they'd have one meeting a year or two meetings a year maybe. And the Pirate Club had a chapter we got involved and really got it cranked out we organized bus trips to the games, you know, and we all get had a little get togethers and mixers, and we had a lot of fun. And so, and they, the university got us involved. So if a student was admitted, they would send us the name of the student and we call them on the phone and say, you know, I went to ECU I understand you've been admitted if you have any questions about the campus, right. And the parents loved it because they all had questions. You know, which dorm should I be in and so that was successful, including some good students.

(48:48)
When I came to Greenville, the clerk I was I was amazed. We did not have a local chapter, the Alumni Association. We didn't have a Pitt County Chapter, the Pirate Club. So I started one. And we had bus trips to the lost colony, the North County Zoo, all the football games, we took NC State, you know, Wake Forest, Duke, Carolina. We're very I mean, and we had little mixers.

(49:13)
We started a little newsletter called the Treasure Chest. So immediately the Alumni Association put me on their board. And that became president Alumni Association. And I was a very young president. That's right. 32 or something. It was because nobody really wanted that job at the time. And, and then Dr. Jenkins resigned. And we brought in Tom Brewer from TCU as our new chancellor. And Tom was not a good fit. And he came in, he fired everybody. And he made a lot of enemies, probably needed to make some changes, but he fired a lot of people. And immediately his name was one of the finalists for a job at another campus. And the board trustees came in and said, Are you going to be our chancellor? Are you looking for another job? He said, No. Somebody had put my name in over there, I wasn't seeking that job. But then he was a finalist for the University of Louisville job. And they fired him. And that was a big deal to fire the chancellor. And the reason I know that as a represented his son who got two DUIs over that weekend, that his father resigned. And I was I've been President Alumni Association. And when you have a chancellor search is tradition that you name to the chancellor search committee, the president parent club, President, Alumni Association, Chairman, the faculty senate chairman, faculty, staff, Chairman of the board of visitors, Chairman of the board of trustees, it's sort of a set arrangement. I get a call from Bill Friday, Bill Friday was head of the university system,

(50:47)
He's like God, and he says, Phil, actually Futrell, the editor of the Washington, David news, Duke grad who's chairman board trustees ECU doesn't want you on the search committee. Because you're 32 and everybody else is over 65. You're too young. He says. He said I want to come see and talk about. So he came down. And here I am a little attorney with one other attorney, one Secretary, he says my office and he tells me, you're going to be on the search committee. But you need to understand they're going to look at you as being youngster. And they're going to you're going to want to defer to their wisdom, be respectful, listen and learn. And you'll gain their favor. And I did. And it was a wonderful experience for me. We picked John Howell, who had been the provost under Jenkins to be the new chancellor, and that was [unintelligible]. So but it took a lot of time. So the Alumni Association comes to me and says,

(51:43)
We're planning a trip with the Alumni Association here, and at the University of Virginia and Wake Forest University, to Russia, as a friendship exchange. And we're taking a bunch of people, mainly older citizens, senior citizens, but we need somebody to help us chaperone this group. And to thank you for your service on the transfer select committee.

(52:06)
We'd like to pay for you to go on this trip. So I go home very excited. It's a nine day trip to Russia. And it was a time when we were trying to build a relationship with Russia. I mean, we had real strained relations with Russia. I came home and tell it to my wife and my children who were one and two, hey, I'm going to Russia for nine days. And my wife says no, you're not. She says, I need help with these babies. And she said, so I went back in and said, sorry I can't go and they said what if we allowed her to go for half price? I said, What's that price? And they said, it's like $2,400 or something. So we somehow worked it out to do that. That was a lot of money. I was making 11 five probably

AC: (52:45)
Who took care of the kids while you were gone?

PD: (52:47)
Her mom and dad came and took care of the kids. And we get over there we fly to Russia on this educational trip, two people died on the trip, by the way. It was a very strenuous trip. You'd have to walk through the snow and they have

AC: (53:00)
Is that why they died?

PD:: (53:02)
I think I think they were overcome by the Yeah, the the physical exertion, I really do. But they were all they were old. And we went all over Russia, Moscow, Leningrad, Tashkent. peskind, Tbilisi. I mean, went to the Afghanistan border went in there, I mean, it was it was an incredible trip. But Reagan, because of Afghanistan announced economic sanctions against Soviet Union and we couldn't fly back to the states on the Aeroflot airlines. So we were there 18 days. And it was scary.

(53:32)
I made one phone call home from my father, stepfather had heart attack. And for two minutes, it cost me $147 for phone call. But now the people in Russia only 5% were members of the Communist Party. And they were very friendly and nice. And we had Polaroid cameras we took a picture. They would give you these metals. We have a whole collection of metals. But we went to the zoo. We went to the hockey game, we went to The Bolshoi Ballet. I mean we had, really, but we spent five nights in the airport two, it was scary. When we got ready to leave, we didn't have any money. And we had too much luggage, too much weight. Because we bought these little stone statues of bears.

(54:10)
Do you have a souvenirs and our tour guide bribed the Russians with a bag of peanut m&ms To let us through because we cost us like $140 that we didn't have. And but I do remember over the we sold a pair of jeans for $90 Just don't beat a pair of jeans. If you had a Bic pen or any cigarettes, that was the cab fare. You had shops that you could only use rush American money, you couldn't use foreign money, you couldn't use Russia money. But it was an interesting trip. It was a it was a life changing trip, you know, in a lot of ways. And so that was a grand experience I got from being the Alumni Association president and then I got to be on a search committee. I was on the search committee, Vice Chair and board of trustees.

(54:55)
So then I became the pirate club needed an attorney. And so I got on their board because I needed an attorney. And I became the attorney for a long time, and ultimately worked out to be the president of the pirate club. And the President Pirate Club used to fly all the away games with the football team. As a thank you for all the time and effort you put into helping them raise money. We raised the first million dollars ever for the Pirate Club. And

AC:(55:22)
When when when around what time period?

PD: (55:24)
mid mid 80s. So, Dave Hart is the athletic director. But he had been the executive director of Park Club, and we had hired him as a high school coach, basketball coach and Louisville but his dad was the athletic director at University of Missouri. And he had good pedigree. So he first came here as the Assistant Director of Marketing or something for the athletic department. He started the purple gold pigs and pig out party, which was a big deal. But we hired him to be the President of the Pirate Club. And so he and I worked really closely together. When he was executive director, I was president. And so when he got to be ad, we had a real good relationship. And we always flew charter flights to all these way games. I mean, we go to University of Washington, Penn State, University of Florida. I mean, you know, it was all LSU. I mean, it was really incredible.

(56:16)
All these trips, we got to take. But there were empty seats on the plane. And I said to Dave Hart, I said, Why don't you sell these seats, people would die to get a chance to fly with the team. And he said, That's a good idea. So the next year after I was no longer president, he called me up and said, since this was your idea, I'm gonna give you the first crack at buying a seat on the plane. I said, wait a minute, how much is it gonna cost? He said, Well, we take the cost of the trip and we divide it by the number of people. He said, So we include airfare, hotel, ground transportation, tickets to the game and food. It's gonna cost you about $77. I said, is that all? he said I said, Can I take my son, he's, he's gonna have a birthday this coming week. He said, Yeah, she can take him to Memphis. They was about to turn 10 We had just bought him a suit because his mother was a violinist, and he sometimes played with her. And back then you were suit when you flew.



(57:15)
So David, and I go to Memphis, and we're with a team and he is so excited. He's got his press guy. He's getting everybody's autograph. He's sitting with his favorite football player. You know, he's, he's died and gone to heaven. And we get there and he is. The team has all these things to do. So we rent a car, and we're trying to find a place to go to celebrate his birthday. We were just randomly driving around looking for a restaurant. We see Lone Star Steakhouse. We've never been to a Lone Star Stakehouse. We go there peanut shells on the floor, Little Girls ing Country Western outfits. They sing him Happy Birthday, they bring him up blueberry cobbler for dessert, they print out a newspaper from the year he was born. We had a wonderful evening. The next day, I take him to the zoo, planetarium and Children's Museum. And we get back and we get all dressed up in our purple gold garb. And we get our own car. We don't know how to get to the stadium it's the Liberty Bell. And so the three buses in front of hotel are there. And we just put our car behind the buses. So we followed them to the stadium.

(58:15)
All of a sudden, two police cars and eight motorcycle cops show up. One gets in front of the bus and one gets behind us. The most cops lineup beside us and they turn their lights and sirens on and we're racing through town. And they're stopping traffic. You know as we go. And I'm excited. He's excited. I mean, this is the greatest trip of our life. And we get to the stadium and they take us inside the stadium. We're not outside so we're inside the stadium. And also when the coaches is walking towards us, I'm thinking Oh hell, we're in trouble. And the coach said Can your son David hold coach Logan's headphones and reel the cord in and out of the sidelines we need somebody to hold the cord. And David Oh my god, it's such a big deal. You gotta be on the sidelines with a football team stand beside coach Logan. It's where he learned to cuss. He told me later. But I just got out and sat down. We never paid for parking. We never paid for a ticket. It was a fabulous weekend.

(59:07)
So David, when he got married four years ago said, I believe this is the best day of my life. But until tonight's rehearsal dinner, they said the best day of my life was when I was 10 years old and my dad took me on the football trip. Well, for 20 years, I got to fly with the team. Every weekend I flew out took a different son every time, great bonding, they're trapped. You know, they have to talk to you. They ask you questions about abortion and death penalty and serious things, you know. And so it was really a wonderful bonding time for me. When I was at ECU and the SGA president, vice president, Bob Whitley and I got invited to the Southern University Student Government Association convention in Memphis.

(59:50)
First time I'd ever flown or so we flew to Birmingham, and then we flew to Memphis, we stayed Sheraton Peabody Hotel, where they have the ducks on the roof and they come down the elevator and get the fountain thrown around. But they had all the entertainment there that they would perform for you and you decide what you're gonna book them for the coming year,

AC: (1:00:11)
right

PD: (1:00:11)
And Bob met a girl from a stewardess and I met a girl who was in the Tyler Junior College Rangerettes. I mean, that was they performed, they dressed as cowgirls for the Dallas Cowboys game. They were famous. And we have a wonderful week. Oh, my God, it's such a great fun time. But that was an experience I would have never had otherwise.

(1:00:34)
So after having been involved with the Alumni Association as President, and the Pirate Club as president, I got nominated to the board of trustees. And that was really special. And about 93, I guess, and you serve four year terms, I had two four year terms. And about my second year on the board, Bob Ward, announces there's a nominating committee. He's appointing [unintelligible], as the chair of the nominating committee. And I quite honestly slip a note to her and said I'd like to be considered for Secretary. And there's this horrified look on her face. So we had a break. I said, What's wrong? She said, the slate's already been decided. You don't just decide you don't just asked to be nominated. I said why not? Why can't I stand up and say, I want to be Secretary. Here's why. So they changed the rules. And I got elected secretary. And then you serve two years as secretary, two years as vice chair, and you serve two years as chair. And so that was a great experience. And Dick Eakin was the chancellor really fine, man, really fine Chancellor. But when he when I was a Vice Chairman of board of trustees, we had a chairman of the board of trustees who didn't like Dick and thought ECU should be a UNC. You know, he just just wasn't a real realistic person, I don't think. And he wanted a fire Dick. And so I got Molly Broad involved, president of the UNC system. And she said, You never fire a chancellor, if you fire the Chancellor, you'll never get another chancellor. I mean, you know, nobody wants to come here. If they could be fired, what you do is you tell the chancellor, he'd been here 10 years, that you know, their is sentiment to remove him and let him resign a year hence. And so you spend your year honoring the chancellor, you go through the process of searching for new chancer. And that's what we did. And we I was chair of the search committee, we got Bill muse who was the chancellor the president of Auburn University to come here and be our of our chancellor. And Bill had been present the Southeastern Conference.

(1:02:44)
He had been formally a president of Akron University. I mean, he was really a great find for us. He had been the chair. He'd been the Dean of the College of Business at Appalachian State. Early in his career. He loved North Carolina, he loved baseball, he loved barbecue, and he was a good fit for us. But he was a US to get things done and he didn't have to answer to a higher authority like the UNC system. And so he got in trouble with Molly Broad because of our telemedicine program. He had a guy named David ball who hired people who want to hire and bought the equipment he wanted to hire, to acquire without going through the bid process. And it just got a bunch of people in trouble apparently. So I was on two search committees, actually. And then we formed the Board of Visitors while I was on board of trustees, to be sort of an advocacy group received the lobby of general assembly across the state. And we Janice Faulkner served as the first President, first chairman, the Board of Visitors. And then we and that's been a really good thing.

(1:03:42)
I just rotated off the board visitors as a matter of fact, yeah. And then when I I got here to go, I came back to Greenville where I always wanted to be. I had had so many people helped me along the way that I felt I had a real responsibility to get involved in the community. So in every nonprofit needs an attorney, they want an attorney, they're trying to get you to be an attorney. So I did all the little nonprofits and then became I came became chairman of the Museum of Art Greenville Museum of art, which is nice. I became a trustee of the Pitt County Arts Council, I became the chairman of the Chamber of Commerce, I'm still their attorney. I became the chairman of the Pitt County Mental Health and retardation and substance abuse board. I took one of these once a year, I took Chairman the United Way, President United Way, which is a different job, when you're chairman, you're raising money, also had to raise a million dollars by the end. And I have three children. And all of a sudden, my wife has cancer. And she's beautiful. She's still beautiful. But in those days, if you got cancer it was a death warrant. And she had a mass in her chest about the size of grapefruit,

AC: (1:05:06)
What time period again?

PD: (1:05:07)
She was probably whether it was Scott was 18 months old. So this was he's 35. So it started thirty three years ago. But we had a beautiful home, I had my practice going and I had nine attorneys and 15 staff members, and we were knocking it dead.

(1:05:23)
Phil and David were seven and nine, I think, and but the doctor says she's got about three months to live. And we had just started the cancer center here. And when that time you had to go to Duke and stay or UNC and stay right. my wife decided not to have radiation and chemotherapy, she resigned herself to the fact that she was dying. We brought her mom and dad up here to take care of the baby. And we took the 7 and 9 year old on a tour of every amusement park in three states as a farewell and did that for about three weeks, came back and our mom and dad said you owe it to your family to fight this thing.

(1:06:00)
So very reluctantly, she went through radiation chemotherapy. And she went from 128 pounds to 72 pounds. And I could carry her around like a sack of potatoes. And she came about as close to dying as she could. But she, she, she she she was sick in bed for a long time. And she, my son Scott still remembers as a young toddler. You know, he said, I couldn't understand why she wouldn't get up and get me a peanut butter and jelly sandwich. But she was sick as she could be. I take her to treatments. I carry her home and put her bed and I give her medicine to keep her from getting sick. And her mom and dad stayed with us. You know, it was very expensive. Just I don't how people do it. But all these people came out of the woodwork.

(1:06:46)
The United Way I talked about we had people who brought us food, cut our grass, raked our leaves, took the kids for a couple of days. We got so much food, we had to buy an extra freezer. Now I'm sure that happens other places too, but it never happened to me. And so it reinforced the need to be involved, with an education comes a responsibility, you know. And so I've been really involved. And when I finished on the Board of Trustees, I aspired to get on the Board of Governors. But the former a former chairman of board trustees who was trying to get Dr. Eakin fired, strongly opposed me. So it took me a few years to get on there. But I got on there in 2005 serve two four year terms, chaired about every committee. And I was in a great position to be have a third four year term. When my wife decided that she wanted to go teach in Italy at Chateau Alta, our our campus overseas near Naples.

AC: (1:07:46)
So I guess she got better...

PD: (1:07:47)
Oh, yes, she she recovered. Now. It wasn't easy recovery. When you get cancer, you have to go through a CAT scan every six months for five years. And our first CAT scan. They thought they discover more cancer. So they cut her open her lower abdomen and turned out wasn't cancer. It was swollen lymph nodes, but they still had to cut her open, you know, so at 10 weeks to recover from that. And it was terrifying everytime she had and she had she had a difficult time because she she had cancer twice.

(1:08:16)
Our son at the same age got cancer, the one who's law professor, the same cancer which she felt guilty because she thought he inherited from her which is not supposed to be the case, then her sister got cancer and died and then I got cancer. And in while I was in cancer treatments. She was totally freaked out. I mean, it was just too much. You know she'd had cancer, cancer, cancer cancer and so she left me when I was in cancer treatment and went to teach and I just told her I said you know if you're going to if you're going to do that I'm not gonna be here when you back because You know, I just couldn't imagine I'd taken really good care of her. I thought she had cancer. And it was scary to be by yourself and you're in cancer treatments, you know. But it was a great opportunity. She's Italian, her family's Italian. And so to go back to Italy was a big deal, you know, and you got to show the kids all over the country and you know, teach and she taught yoga and music, she taught a mass that was in the church where it was written in the 12th century, she was performed that mass there with her group from ECU. So it's been a great way..

AC: (1:09:20)
What did she teach?

PD: (1:09:21)
Music. She was violin and orchestra conductor, and she also is a certified yoga teacher. And when she got real healthy after having cancer, she got really into wellness, you know, and so she's, she's been teaching over in Italy now for seven and a half years. And we divorced about a year after she went to Italy. And but we're real good friends. So

AC: (1:09:46)
that was, so it was around seven years ago, or whatever, you had cancer then?

PD: (1:09:50)
I had cancer about 2012

AC:.(1:09:54)
Well, I'm glad you're better.

PD: (1:09:56)
I'm sure yeah. I mean, I had surgery to remove the cancer and I had the radiation and the hormone therapy and it worked out fine. You know, but but, but still tough to lose your wife to Yes, but But understood. She just, it was just too much for just too much, just too much. And, but we've been really lucky. We've got two sons who are lawyers and one son who's a very successful musician. He was a lead guitar player for the embers for five and a half years. He went to Berkeley. It's funny, he went

AC: (1:10:23)
Which son is it?

PD: (1:10:24)
David my son's middle son David [unintelligible]. It's funny, he when he was in high school, he got to take classes, he was at rose but he would come over to ECU as you take classes from Paul Tardif. And and the guy who's in charge of the jazz program, gosh, what is his name?

AC: (1:10:41)
Billy the jazzman?

PD: (1:10:43)
No, I don't. He's played with all jazz greats. He's a really fabulous professor. So David got a Canon music scholarship to Appalachian State. And his girlfriend was going to Appalachian State. So he went there. And then he broke up with his girlfriend. And he said Dad I want to transfer back to ECU because our program is so much better. He thought that Appalachians so he transferred back here and then Carol DeShields, Carol DeShields talked him into going to Berkeley. Well, Berkeley was 42,000 a year. I mean, it was oh my god and the scholarships. he gives up the scholarship. Oh my God, it was just awful. But anyway, but he's got a good education there. And he's produced about seven albums. That's why some wine distributor, so they do okay, they're got a nice house down there. And it feels very happy. I've only got one grandson. He's just turned 15. He's in Chapel Hill. My brother, who's 10 Years Younger has three girls and one boy minister who's married the minister's daughter. They have two children Hope and Faith. And they have he has eight grandchildren. Five girls, three boys. So he has all these hugs and kisses and giggles and I don't get any.

AC: (1:11:51)
They don't come hug and kiss you too?

PD: (1:11:52)
Well, they kiss me. But I mean, he's the he's the grandfather.

AC: (1:11:56)
Yes, yes.

PD: (1:11:57)
And my grandson who's 15 He's not gonna give me a hug. But he's a great kid. He's six foot tall weighs about 150. So and he's good athletes. So he just started high school. And

AC: (1:12:09)
so and your son, Phil, he tell tell us what he does.

PD: (1:12:17)
He's the defender educator at UNC School of Government, southern law school, and he teaches criminal law procedure. And he he advises all the superior court judges, district court judges, public defenders and district attorneys in the state. And he travels a lot to teach people. And he goes all the country setting up programs similar what we got here in other states, and he's got a great job. He lives about a mile and a half from where he works. And he's got a parking space right there in law school which is sort of nice. And he's got great job, you know, just great job. I miss because he was good lawyer, good trial lawyer.

AC: (1:12:54)
He used to work with you.

PD: (1:12:57)
Nine years he practiced with me, which is how you got to be he was president criminal offense bar here. And he got an opportunity. He was well known by some of professors up there and the guy, the person who was in charge of his program, got hired by the law school to teach permanently. And so Phil wanted there to take his place. And so we'll sort of see where that takes us. And then Scott's been practicing may he's been he's 35. He's been practicing with me for seven or eight years. Yes.

AC: (1:13:22)
And he's the one who teaches adjunct here at ECU

PD: (1:13:25)
his wife is getting her MBA in December and medical practice management her she works for her dad who's a cardiologist. She manages his practice

AC: (1:13:35)
and her degrees from will be from here?

PD: (1:13:37)
Yes, she got her undergrad degree.

AC: (1:13:38)
What's her name?

PD: (1:13:39)
Katie and Katie's dad, Eric Carlson. And her mother was a nurse. She has been managing his practice for good while she does a good job but she decided Get her MBA and medical practice management so she can after that retire, she can work somewhere else. Certainly ECU health would be a good place for her to work, you know, that'd be great. And so, you know, when I came here and got involved in all these things in the community, I really enjoyed it because greenville was kind of place that you they desperately need leadership and desperately need people to get involved. So I've had real good experience.

(1:14:18)
Randy Dowd, my law partner for 26 years, he became a federal judge, and the courthouse here is named for him. He died at 59, 10 years ago of a heart attack. His son, Jamison, just finished law school at Wake Forest and just came here to work in the federal courts for his dad's successor judge. It was sort of sweet. And one of my tenants in my building was the [unintelligible]. She knows the Clerk of Superior Court here. And her daughter just finished law school. And so it's sort of interesting to sort of see the cycle. And she became the vice president's student body. When she was maybe five years old. She got daycare or school and they drop her off about 230 in the afternoon with Sarah Beth trying to get some work done, you know, so am I. But she would say to Sarah, she was saying to Lily, Lily, here's a book. Why don't you take it down to Mr. Phil's office, and he'll read you this book. So she gets some work done. Well, I didn't have any girls. So this cute little girl comes to my door with a picture hanging on the wall, and a book in her arm wants me to read to her. So I'm going to stop and read to her. I got to be real close to Lily. But the community service has been a real, real positive thing. I mean, I've really enjoyed it. And I've gotten a Distinguished Service Award from the Boy Scouts. I've gotten one from the Bar Association for the Education Law Section. I was the first public school attorney to be recognized. I got one from ECU. I got the outstanding alumni award. And then the Bar Association has I. Beverly Lake was a professor at Wake Forest College of constitutional law later became an North Carolina Supreme Court, his son established a an award for public service called the I. Beverly Lake Public Service Award. And they give you $5,000 As a stipend, when you win it, designate some good cause. And I got that. And it was real funny.

(1:16:20)
When my mom and dad, I don't have a lot of memories of my dad. But he was just a handyman, he didn't make a lot of money. So his take home pay was $37. Net a week. And he said when he was at Wake Forest college, so many of his male professors there would ignore him and treat him like he wasn't there. So he went there classroom to do a repair job, or replace a broken window or do something. It was like he wasn't there. He said but I. Beverly Lake was always real friendly and would ask about me, and he would tell about his children. And he said, If Dr. Lake needed to have something done, I was gonna put him at the top of the list, you know, because he was so nice to me. So when I got a call from this attorney in Charlotte, who's president of the Bar Association telling me I got this award. I said, this is incredible. I'm on my way to see my mother. And I can't wait to tell her because when Dr. Lake ran for governor back in 1960, or something 56 Or whatever it was, my father made a contribution in his campaign and $25 and my mother had a hissy fit because we didn't have money to give to the candidate. And I remember my father saying, Dr. Lake is a really fine man. He's a lawyer. I didn't know what a lawyer was, but I knew him. It's something you know. And it's so funny because when I arrived at my mother's house in Wake Forest, and told her I'd gotten this award, she said, Your father and I had the biggest fight over Dr. Lake. When he gave $25 to his campaign for governor. I remember. So it's funny how things are turned around. And but Greenville has been a wonderful place to be when I came here to college, we had 26,000. population, we now have almost 100,000 We had less than 10,000 students. We now have almost 30,000

(1:18:05)
We didn't have the medical school. We didn't have the dental school. By the way, one was on the Board of Governors. The very first meeting I went to the Board of Governors, first time ever sitting down there getting ready to hire Phil Dubois as the new chancellor at UNC Charlotte. And Steve Ballard had been here about a year. They were gonna pay Phil Dubois $37,000 more they were paying Steve Ballard at UNC Charlotte.

(1:18:33)
So raise my hand I say how do you justify that? Steve Ballard's has been here a year longer. We have PhD programs they don't have we're in a different classification than UNC Charlotte. We have a major one athlete Division One athletic program. We have medical school. None of that's in Charlotte, right. Motion to raise the salary Steve Ballard 37,000 dollars. So my first meeting I got in good with the chancellor because I got a raise for $37,000. And then then I'm in a meeting one year in No, no we're in September. And this gentleman who's in charge of medical school, at UNC comes in a very strong political guy. And he says, ECU does such a good job recruiting and retaining doctors for North Carolina. And quite frankly, UNC and Duke and Wake Forest haven't done a very good job lately. But we need a lot of new doctors. And we need to expand medical school. So I'm proposing that we expand the medical school at UNC. If you see us doing such a good job, why don't you expand the medical school at ECU because we only had 72 at the time. And I said they've been trying to get to 80 for five years.

(1:19:46)
We're going to talk to ECU about that. He said the problem we're having is Charlotte is the biggest city in the country without a medical school. And they need a lot of residents and interns. And so we need to put a branch of our campus there. And what we're gonna do is we're gonna take our third and fourth year students and place them there. And that'll help solve their problem and keep them from trying to establish their own medical school. And I said why wouldn't you do ECU? He says we're gonna we're gonna talk to ECU about that. So the next meeting I come to, he reports that Asheville has asked to be included to have third fourth year students from UNC put there.

(1:20:24)
How did Asheville get included? He's well, they just asked me included. So I'd like to ask that Wilmington, Fayetteville, Jacksonville and Elizabeth City be added. And that ECUs medical school be expanded. Well, we're going to talk to ECU about that. So this is September October. Okay. In November, he reports on January 5, they're gonna take this to the board for a vote. Have you talked to ECU? No, but I'm happy to report we can talk to them on December 17. And I said so you think between December 17 and January 5, something will be done. And he didn't have an answer for that. Well, I come home and I'm livid. I am so mad.

(1:21:03)
I write a six page venomous letter. I mean, it's ugly, to Erskine Bowles, and he writes me back into equally venomous letter. And he says, don't ever put a letter like that in writing. If the News and Observer gets this, it'll be very embarrassing for us. But you know at the meeting in January, they announced their expanded medical school at ECU up to 80 and then to 120. And he got us money about $350 million suggested for an expansion medical school. Who knows? another time we're trying to get the dental school approved.

(1:21:36)
There's we're 48th in the country, number of dentists per capita 29 counties have only two dentists and they're over 55. We're trying to deal with a major health problem because if you have an infection, your mouth, it affects your overall health. We came up with this proposal to establish satellite clinics all over the state. We've got one to the Tennessee border up near Western Carolina in Silva. We got to remote areas where they don't have anybody you know. The proposal had 11 votes, we needed 17 to get it approved. Between Monday night and Thursday night we got those votes and it became a unanimous decision. That's been a really wonderful thing we've done and you know who was one of the major people who made that happen was our current Chancellor Phil Rogers. I don't know what he had, but he was the chief of staff to Ballard and he was real he had a really good relationship with with Senator Apadoca and was part of the state and Apadoca gave us $60 million to get started. strange how it works.

(1:22:42)
We made a lot of alliances with North Carolina A&T, UNC Charlotte, and UNC Greensboro to battle because what would happen in NC State, I'll tell you this. They used to take the pie and cut it in half, go to UNC cut in half and give it to NC State cut in half and give it to us and everybody else got the crumbs. And so changing that was hard. And we made a lot of progress. But you go into president's home university of North Carolina system and one wall, The dining room is a pastoral campus scene at UNC. One wall is a pastoral campus in NC State. And one wall the small wall has Wright auditorium but it's big, and all the other campus set nothing so there's a pecking order and we've improved the pecking order a great deal but when they first established university of North Carolina system, they only had we had three, three members out of 32, State had five, UNC had 16 so they don't have many votes if They have to get to get something done. But it's better now and it's a lot better now. It used to be, and you know, it's a fairer system than used to be. But they're still deficiencies. When they when they had a consultant they brought in Eva Klein in 99.

(1:24:07)
To look at all the needs of the campuses capital wise. They came up with 600,000 needs at each state 500,000 Or excuse me, 600 million 500 million Carolina. I think it was like 180 million or 200 million for us, I'm not sure. And Carolina balked, said, we're not gonna support unless we get six. And so they got 600 million. And I think we got maybe 220 million or something. And we had some bonded indebtedness, we went 250 million, but those changes change the campuses a lot. And but, you know, there's, there's always politics involved in it. And now we don't have anybody on board of governors represent ECU. And, you know, if you're there if, you know, if you stand up, you know, it doesn't withstand public scrutiny when you raise hell about something. But if nobody's there, you know, I mean, Sonny Floyd, Emmitt Floyd was our lobbyists one time in the General Assembly he's on a committee meeting, and they appropriated $2 million for geriatric studies to NC State and UNC, million dollars apiece.

(1:25:15)
What about ECU? Okay, we'll add ECU, they'll get a third. You got to have somebody there, though, you got to have some advocate. And so you got to have somebody fighting, you know, to make those things happen. So, I enjoyed my time, but I was really upset with my wife, because when she took the job teaching overseas, it would, she was only she was teaching yoga here at the university, she made $700-800 a year. If you make more than $10,000, then you're not your spouse can't make more than $10,000, where you're no longer eligible to be on board of governors. So when she took the job teaching in Italy, it disqualified me from being on board of governors for another term. So I was not happy. Because I was in a position to be vice chair and you know, and now it's become real political, they've reduced size of 32 to 24. And, and it's become has been run by the Republicans and you know, it's just not being done the right way.

(1:26:11)
They do have a good president. Peter Hans is a real good friend of mine, and he was a he's a good he works both sides of the table. And he's a good person, and I think he'll try to treat us as well as he can. We've been trying to get a school of rural public health or school global public health, nurse practitioners, family, nurse midwives, physician assistants, because we can't we can't we will never have enough doctors but getting the medical school building is a big, big deal. You know, that's, that's very big.

(1:26:43)
So I've sort of been involved in my profession. You know, with the Bar Association. I've been involved in the arts because my wife especially Museum of Art, we have a really fine Museum of Art here. And we have a great program here in art at ECU is, I think, between DC and [unintelligible] is the only accredited art school I believe, used to be we, we used to have when I was in school 25% out of state enrollment. We had a lot of kids from Tidewater, Virginia, especially because we were closer than Virginia or Virginia Tech. And we got a lot of kids from New Jersey and Pennsylvania and it was cheaper to go to school here. And most of these students were about 100 points higher on the SAT and they paid out of state tuition, which is still cheaper than they pay back home.

AC: (1:27:28)
I think that's still true

PD: (1:27:30)
so we have now gotten an agreement to raise the out of state enrollment here from 18 to 25%. When they cut it back to 18% it really hurt us really hurt us a lot to cut our out of state enrollment. But now

AC: (1:27:41)
when was that, you know?

PD: (1:27:42)
they've just agreed I think the system is just agree that what I think three campuses are gonna get a chance to do that. They already let A&T do 35% out of state enrollment, because they do engineers, so they're the number one black campus in the country. It's funny, Robert Morgan was the attorney general and then a US senator. Now I got to know him pretty well. You know, I was working for the judge up there. And he said, we had dinner one night and he said it grieved him over us tearing down old Austin building. And he's the one who made the decision. His board of trustees made the decision. They were told that it had no steel in the building. It was a very grand building, beautiful building. And when they started tearing it down, they found out did have steel in it. They tried to preserve the cupola but it crumbled.

(1:28:25)
So I have proposed to the chancellor not that it'll happen. but I said why don't we build a new school of education, a college education building? Exactly like the old Austin building and have it real historical looking from outside with a cupola and columns and do all these things. And then on the inside, make it real high tech and use it as an opportunity to honor all the teachers who in the early days were really missionaries and ambassadors and because we started the North Carolina teacher training school you know, we had a two year degree. And they were called the normals. And I told you, you know, when they established a four year degree, they got an A B degree. So they're almost called them the abnormals. I thought it was really funny. I may have told you this too. I'm repeat it. I went down to Kelly's restaurant, saw Mike Kelly last week, Mike was on board of trustees here. Mike ran Kelly's restaurant, Penguin Isle, and Mecco Mike. Kelly's was the hotspot.

AC: (1:29:17)
And where was that located?

PD: (1:29:19)
Nag's Head, in Nag's Head. And Mike Mike had a big fundraiser for us. We invite all these people to try and get them to give money to scholarships. So I'm giving my speech and a lot of people come up, give me $25,000, or, excuse me, give me 20. They give me $250 or $500, maybe $1,000 or $100. Just small gifts. And that you see this lady coming up the aisle with a walker.

(1:29:47)
And she hands me a check for $25,000. And I said, Wow, there must be a story connected to this to the medical school hospital have something to do with it, she said no. When I was in school, we had the most wonderful speakers brought to the campus, Helen Keller, Amelia Earhart, Eleanor Roosevelt, all these remarkable women came to our campus. And she said, when Eleanor Roosevelt came here in 1939, I had to serve her lunch.

(1:30:14)
In the, the Bloxton house that used to be the home economics house before it became a place for the African American American studies before this move over to the Union. It was where you learn to set a table, serve a meal, cook. It was like home economics in college. And she said, I've never been so nervous in my life, as when I served Eleanor Roosevelt, her lunch. And she said, as soon as I go back to my dorm to Cotten Hall, and I take off my dress, and my slip and I'm just sitting there chilling. And there's a knock at the door. And it's Eleanor Roosevelt. And she's there to thank me for serving her lunch. And she says, Why aren't you going over to ride Wright Auditorium and they've got a big band playing.

(1:30:53)
There's gonna be a dance, why aren't you going over there? And she says, Well, she was chubby. She called herself a chub-ette. And she said, there are 1000 women there and they're 100 men. I'm not gonna get a chance to dance with anybody. And she says, Yes, you are. She made her get dressed and take her across Wright auditorium, the Wright circle. And right as she they get to the Wright auditorium. And of course, she's attracting a crowd because she's got Eleanor Roosevelt, two busloads of Marines arrive who've been in basic training for 10 weeks, and have not seen a woman in 10 weeks. And she said, I have three Marines vying for my attention all afternoon.

(1:31:31)
Eleanor Roosevelt winked at her she said. And she said one of the men won her heart and they got married and they had a wonderful life. They've had several sons, they got a business. And she said, all because the East Carolina, so she gave them $25,000. Isn't that remarkable? but those women, they recruited those teachers, those early teachers to rural areas, like we recruit doctors, they would build them not a one room schoolhouse, but a two room schoolhouse, because they would divide the students into the youngest and the oldest. And they would have to go in early and start wood burning stove to heat up the classroom. I mean that real strict rules, but they also built a house to live in. But they immediately became the most coveted and attractive woman in town, single woman in town.

(1:32:14)
So every businessman wanted to marry her. And she was not just the school teacher, she was the person who staged the Christmas play the Easter play the Thanksgiving celebration, July fourth celebration. I mean, she brought music, art culture, she, she created a community. And so these teachers need to be honored. And that's why the College of Education should do that, I think but anyway, we'll see the chancellor at least knows my feelings about it. And but you know, greenville's a great place. And it's the hope of the East it really is.

(1:32:48)
When we played in the Peach Bowl this was probably before your time, Bill Lewis had a slogan called we believe. He said, We're gonna win on the last play of the game. And of course, we went 11 and one and finished ninth in the country, you know, but we believe that, well, I'm a school board attorney, I go all over eastern part of state to hear cases and sort of hearing officer in cases involving teachers, dismisles and handicapped children. And you'll go in these schools, and you'll see that sign we believe, and what you're trying to convince these kids is you can do anything you want to be, there are people who will help you. And there's no reason somebody can't go to college now. But it's getting terribly expensive. I mean, I talked to lawyers, who are trying to get a job with us and have $150-200,000 for their law school career. You know, they didn't have a dad to pay it for them, you know, and it's it's hard. It's hard. But I was so impressed, I think because Greenville probably had never had anybody doing these things for them.

(1:33:47)
We've always had a lot of people who came to your help, you know, the church probably originally was The United Way, they help widows and orphans and you know, dealt with problems that people had. But we have a lot of that in eastern North Carolina. And I see a lot of clients, one in five people I see in my practice can't read or write. They are functionally illiterate. And people are surprised by that. But you talk to illiteracy volunteers, you'll see

AC: (1:34:09)
I think people will be surprised

PD: (1:34:10)
some of these people are so, so successful in business. I mean, I did a $5 million closing for manufacturing plant site for men who couldn't read or write. Now he could, he could fake it. But his wife called me up and she said, he really can't read, right. So I want to be there. When we do the closing, I want to go over all the papers, I don't want you to say sign here, sign here, sign here, which he explained what he's doing. And we got him in a program at church for literacy volunteers, where he can read now to his grandchildren.

(1:34:39)
But that is it's hard to believe in this world that we have people can't read write. And they'll come in, and they'll have a growth on their neck, the size of your fist, and you'll say, you need to see a doctor and they'll say, I don't have any insurance, you still need to see a doctor. They don't want to see a doctor because they don't want an answer. You know I'm on the hospital board. And they gave a presentation at one of the hospital board meetings, that if you as a citizen, go to the emergency room for something, bad cold, it's gonna cost you $600. If you go to CVS pharmacy, it's gonna cost you $35. If you go to your own physician, it's gonna cost you $100 $150. Yeah, if you have the hospital is there just so many different prices. And of course, you and I have insurance, but a lot of people don't have insurance, we get discounted rates for everything. And the poor person gets charged outrageous sums. Randy dowd, my partner was a bankruptcy lawyer. And he used to tell me, he said is the most wonderful practice in the world because these, these are neverdowells. These are not people, we're not trying to pay their debts. It's usually people have major medical bills, and they just are drowning, and I can help them start a new life and wipe the slate clean.

(1:35:53)
When I was chairman of board of trustees, as an attorney, to handle estates when people die, and we had a lady who had a medical bill for $32,000. She had plenty of money in her state about $350,000. So I called it the Family Practice Center here and I said, I want to get an exact balance. I pay this off. They said we've already written that off. I said, What do you mean, you've written it off? Well, you know, we just didn't say we collect it. So we wrote Oh, I said, she's got plenty of money, we can pay it. So I had to go to the Chancellor and we had to change the process because they were writing things off too quickly because they have so many people can't pay. They just said nobody can pay. So you have to be careful. Can I take a bathroom break?

[recording paused]

AC: Yes..(1:36:33)

PD:Okay. You ready?: (1:36:34)

AC: (1:36:38)
Yes. I was. I was going to ask you before I forget your your wife. Can you tell us her, her whole name?

PD: (1:36:45)
Her heard her name? Candace. ca n d a c e. Cicerone. C i c e r o n e. Her father would say [unintelligible] but because when she was little, her she had little bangs, or hair like Dwight Eisenhower's wife. They called her Mamie, Mamie Eisenhower. So her nickname has always been Mamie so she moved from being [unintelligible]ciceroni to being Mamie Dixon, which sounds like an Aunt Jamima pancake box, but she was so happy to have a simple name. But her family her father was the 11th child. First one of them in the United States grew up in an Italian neighborhood in Philadelphia. They drank more than one because water wasn't fit to drink. They ate spaghetti every Sunday.

(1:37:35)
When I got married, my wife could cooked spaghetti for seven, but couldn't fix it for any less, so we ate spaghetti for three days. And we'd have meatball sandwiches and we'd have pizza with leftover marinara sauce gained 20 pounds and wonderful lady and the family's very musical. She played the violin or the sister play the piano and one sister played the accordion until her breasts got so big she couldn't. But when they get together, they play music. You know, there's just a real special thing. When I was on the board of governors, Ann Goodnight came to me she was on board of governors. And Jim Goodnight her husband owned SAS institute in Cary which has 38,000 employees worldwide, getting ready to go public. They have a campus of 17 buildings. They have a gymnasium a cafeteria for their employees, it's a great place to work. She said Phil, you've been a school board attorney and you've represented 26 school systems. And you've been a community college attorney representing seven community colleges. And you've been a University Board Chair and you've been on board of governors. I'd need for you to go to Ireland for me. And I'll pay all your expenses Ireland is trying to adopt. They're trying to model their educational system after ours.

(1:38:53)
In Ireland, they lost half their population after the potato famine, they had 9 million people, half the population emigrated, many to the United States. And they were pretty well educated people because they had school systems through the Catholic Church. And so they were much better educated than citizenry in the late 1850s, for example. So when they came to the United States, many of them became policemen. And they became firemen. And they became a priest, because they could read and write, filling out reports and things.

(1:39:24)
So we stereotype them as, you know, Irish policemen, Irish firemen, Irish priests. She said, but you had to pay money to send your child to Catholic school. And now they're going to sort of free public education system. And in Ireland, when you reach about 14, or 15, you take a test. And depending on how you place that test, you get to go to college for free, everybody gets to go to college for free. But the test results dictate which college you get to go to. And if they only need three engineers, or they only need five attorneys or six surgeons, they only have those spots for those people. So it's very competitive. So a lot of their students go overseas to study. Because if you want to be a lawyer, you want to be a surgeon or want to be an engineer, and you don't get in that group, you know, you have to go out. And she said, they're just trying to do a better job with their system. And so I go over to Ireland for nine days. And I go to Trinity College, which is like Duke University, right?

(1:40:25)
Magnificent. It's got a library, table after table a table have a bust of Socrates or some scholar from the world, you know, there, and I'm giving this speech. And I say, I'm representing the University of North Carolina. We were chartered in 1789. We're very proud of that. They started laughing. I said, why are they laughing, and they said, We were chartered at 1542. And we rescued books from the Vikings that were attacking the monasteries in 800. And we have the Book of Kells. that was the New Testament. Beautiful pages that a monk would take a year to write you know, and they created all paints and everything. But they had the European free market, you know, so you could go all over Europe free, if you wanted to, sort of as we go to Myrtle Beach, they go to Belgium, or France or Italy or Greece or you know, whatever. So they had a very interesting community. And I got to have dinner with the Prime Minister, who was a lady, and she gave me silver cufflinks. It was really pretty impressive. And I just had a wonderful time over there. I met a lady who had was about my mother's age, and she got almost twice as much my mother in social security. So they really take good care of their people. But they're called the Irish. They're called the Celtic Tiger.

(1:41:40)
Their original exports were whiskey, Wedgwood China, and wool. They're more sheep than people by the way. And now they're their exports are Botox, Viagra and software. That's they've changed considerably. But it was very interesting. The tour guide that took me around said, when she came to Ireland, her dad had been a banker. So she grew up working in banks as a teller, you know, and helping out. And so he got out and she wanted to be a teller. She went to the bank, and they said, We don't have married women. Why would you not hire married women. We don't want married women talking about the pleasures of marriage with our single women and distracting them. Can you imagine? I mean, I can't imagine that. And she, they said over there since you get your free college, college at a cost free. People stay at home with their family until they get much older, you know, when they finish college is when they usually leave and go to somewhere else. I thought was pretty interesting. Yeah. Yeah. But on my list, hold on one second.

AC: (1:42:43)
Can I ask you a couple of things? So you mentioned that you when you were with the SGA, the Vice President, you all got the bus systems started. What can you tell me about that? How did that come to be?

PD: (1:43:03)
it was hard to get from one side of the campus to the other. We had minges. And so we contracted with the Raleigh bus company. And we rented buses to come down here and take kids to class and around and we [unintellible] and finally reached the point where we could afford to allocate money to buy our own buses, you know, but we started out that way. And we didn't have in the dorms, you know, my dorm was like a army barrack. I mean, communal showers

AC: (1:43:30)
Right

PD: (1:43:30)
No telephones, no TVs. I mean, there was one TV in the lobby that you watch. And no cooking, no cooking. You might have a little cup where you could put something inside to warm up a soup or something. That's all you could do. And so we tried to change all that. So we started refrigerator rental program, which was a big deal. And then You know, I thought we were pretty forward thinking at the time, we did a good job. And we we competed against other SGAs.

(1:44:00)
There used to be something called the State student legislature that met in Raleigh, and I was chairman of that, our delegation, we won the Best delegation award. And we were we would introduce bills in the general assembly like we were in the General Assembly. And we introduced a bill dealing with anatomical gifts. So you can make anatomical gifts. Yes, well, ECU had just started their medical school when I came into practice. So I got hired to represent the medical school in organ and tissue transplant work, and they formed a group called Carolina organ procurement agency. And we looked at all the things they were doing across the country to try and encourage people to make organ donations. And UNC and Duke and Wake Forest have been doing that for a long time. Well, they were doing it the wrong way.

(1:44:45)
When somebody checked in the hospital, they would say to somebody, would you consider being an organ donor, if things don't go well? Not a good time to ask. And other states have started these programs where you on your driver's license, you would indicate if you want to be an organ donor. And they would educate people about how badly we need organs, you know, and bowels and kidneys and eyes and all sorts of things as the North Carolina human tissue bank. So, ECU did such a good job, encouraging donations in order of organ, the tissue that we had more in the eastern part of the state than in the Piedmont of the western part of the state.

(1:45:20)
So all of a sudden, Duke had us take over their program, UNC had us take over their program, Bowman Gray at Wake Forest had us take over their program. So we're doing 79 counties. So I was the attorney for the 79 counties, and they later became Carolina donor services. But they did really good work. And then I was the attorney for I was every Mental Health Board in North Carolina has to have an attorney on their board, just to raise a red flag. If something comes up. It's got a legal issue. And so I became the chairman, the Vice Chairman, and then I came to the chairman. And then I got hired to represent 10 mental health centers in a consortium called the Carolina behavioral health care consortium. And one of our former board chairs, Charles Franklin was also chairman of that board. And we did a lot for mental health in that area. 10 counties we did, it was that 29 counties, but I think 10 mental health centers, but just a lot of things. But I do a lot of public body work. It's very interesting being in a public body represent public body, because these people are elected or appointed. And yet you're the attorney and they turn to you a lot of times asking for advice and counsel. So you're getting paid, but you're almost participating like an elected or appointed board member. And they put a lot of weight in what you have to say, you know, so it's been sort of cool. And then I was a school board attorney for so many years I represents many school systems.

(1:46:39)
The state hired me to be a hearing officer in cases involving children with disabilities and handicapping conditions if you as a parent don't feel like your child is receiving a free appropriate public education and appropriate related services like speech therapy, occupational therapy, whatever. Because some kids have trach tubes, they have had to be have injections, you know, for [unintelligible] there all sorts of things you have to do, have to be catheterized.

(1:47:04)
So there are a lot of issues that come from those cases. And when they passed the education of All Handicapped Children Act, I was the school board attorney, I had a lot of those cases because if you have a handicapped child in Eastern North Carolina, you come to Greenville, we have preschool for autistic children. We have alot of professors here, a lot of services here, we have schools and hospitals. And so even now, I'm a hearing officer in the state for hearing some of those cases involving younger children. And then if your teacher has tenure, and she's dismissed, there's a very elaborate procedure, you have to go through due process while I'm hearing officer those cases and they're only there. Suppose the eight of us are only five of us from in one Eastern, eastern North Carolina. And so a lot of people get mad at the ones in the West.

AC: (1:47:47)
That's a system wide. Okay, okay. Got it.

PD: (1:47:53)
And I'm trying to think the School of Government in North Carolina is sort of unique and that not many states have a School of Government that helps train city council members, county commissioners, trustees and people that represent public bodies. But we've gotten involved that we have a Master's in Public Administration, or teach people to be a city manager or county manager, that sort of thing too. And, you know, I think there's a lot of good things that come out of that, quite frankly, I think is when I was on the, by the way was on the Board of Governors that my was liaison to the Center for International Understanding. And we went over to China went there for nine days. And in China, the Chinese students are taking a course here at ECU, Rosina Chow.

(1:48:40)
There are classes eight o'clock at night, our class eight o'clock in the morning, and it's in sort of sociology, and it's marriage customs and dating and that sort of thing and One of our students was complaining about the dorm. And the Chinese students said, I live in dorm unless it's more than four storeys tall. We have no elevators. We have no showers in our dorm. We have to go to a building next door. We have no bathroom. No, no, we have to go to building next door. While I was in China, I went to

AC: (1:49:14)
when were you in China?

PD: (1:49:16)
I was in China time period. Oh, my word. I guess five years ago,

AC: (1:49:25)
okay.

PD: (1:49:27)
Yeah. But but you know, it's amazing how small their houses are. I mean, they have, they'll have a round table, they'll have a square table that folds up to make a round table from where people sit. And they have a bedroom, you can hardly get around the bed. So they got everything built in like a TV, they got headboard. It's got bookcases. And but but I thought they were very friendly people but you know, they it's a, we wrote one of those high speed trains, you know, we went to Beijing, which was sort of scary. went to Shanghai, which is sort of like a New York City. We went we went to three cities that had over 5 million people that I've never heard of. Never heard of the cities.

AC: (1:50:09)
Right

PD: (1:50:09)
One was the wedding capital of the world, apparently. And I mean, wedding dress shop after shop shop shop. Yeah. But but you know, it's interesting.

AC: (1:50:18)
Were you there for business?

PD: (1:50:20)
I was representing the Board of Governors.

AC: (1:50:22)
Yeah, okay. Okay.

PD: (1:50:24)
And, but which is why I got to see Rosina's classroom, which is sort of cool. So we do a lot of work. We don't have as many students who go overseas to study, but we have a lot of students who participate. So in Rosina's class, for example, she has students from India, Pakistan, China, different places around the world. So when they had an earthquake in China, and a bunch of people were killed, some of the students in her class were killed. And so it brings it home that, you know, all over the world are issues facing people, you know, and they talked about, you know, it's trying to help people understand each other.

AC: (1:50:59)
Right.

PD: (1:51:00)
So I've been to strange places, I went to Russia that time I went to China, I went to Ireland, you know, just but it was fascinating. It's fascinating, the different culture, like in Ireland, you know, the pubs. The whole family goes to the pub, right? And they sing and you know, have a, it's really a great fellowship. I went to by the way, I went to the went to the brewery. Oh, in Ireland. But anyway, it's a dark beer, Guinness, Guinness, Guinness, and I go there and Guinness at one time employed 25% of the population. They were started in 1741. They had a heart on the label of the beer. Beer was made with wheat and barley. It was considered very healthy, so healthy that it was much better to drink beer than was drinking water because water wasn't fit to drink,

AC: (1:51:52)
right.

PD: (1:51:53)
Guinness had their own farms for oats, wheat, barley, their own trains, their own ships, their own manufacturing plant, their own hospital, their own fire station on police station. And if you were in the hospital, at Guinness, they gave you a pint of Guinness before you delivered a baby and a pint of Guinness after you delivered a baby because it was very healthy and it helped you produce breast milk. But if you're an Irishman, you're born drunk. I mean, you know, think about it, you got a pint against before you deliver a pint against after you deliver. But beer is a big deal to them. I mean, it's a big deal. But that harp it was so associated with Ireland, they sold it in 180 countries of the world were why they sold this beer. The harp now represents Ireland and is their national symbol from the Guinness's bottles. Isn't that's amazing.

AC: (1:52:46)
Yeah, that is amazing

PD: (1:52:47)
anything else you have a question about?

AC: (1:52:49)
I did want to ask you about you mentioned when you first came here as a student, you had that roommate from Nassau. Now I'm curious, do you know, you know, international students, right, do you? Do you know how he ended up coming here?

PD: (1:53:07)
He worked in a bank in Nassau. And the person who managed his bank branch was an ECU grad. School of business,

AC: (1:53:16)
right, okay.

PD: (1:53:16)
And his brother had already gone to British Columbia in Canada to school and was freezing to death up there just didn't like it at all. And so, Jeff was told by his bank manager, why don't you go to ECU, it's halfway up between Miami and New York. And so he came here to school, didn't know a whole lot about us, but had this great British accent which the ladies loved. And he became a disc jockey at W-ECU and he had this accent you know which people loved and he was sort of eclectic. But he soon got his brother Patrick to transfer here. And he had a great time he just wonderful fella. And we had a Model United Nations. That was in New York, you'd send a delegation, we represented Cuba. And so Jeff got all the people in his delegation to dress up as Fidel Castro and carry cigars. I mean, they rode the plane to New York that way. And, you know, I'm sure scared the hell out of everybody about getting hijacked or something. But he had a great experience here and his son, Christian came back here to school. And I since I was living on Fifth Street time, he would come and watch football with us and have dinner with us, you know, quite often. And then Patrick, Patrick's son went to University of South Florida. So we played South Florida, they would all come up here. And Jeff now works in a bank during the day, but he's an MC at a nightclub at night. And one of his jobs as an MC was to emcee a beauty pageant of all the stewardesses. So every airline had their own representative and Miss air Italia won, and he married Miss air Italia. And she's now realtor down there. And Jeff and his brother have a Mercedes Benz dealership, a Jiffy Lube and a banana plantation. And he sends me a Christmas card

AC: (1:55:02)
in the Bahamas?

PD: (1:55:03)
Yes. He sends me a Christmas card of somebody surfing into the shoreline. Happy Merry Christmas, you know,

AC: (1:55:08)
What's his last name?

PD: (1:55:09)
Joffrey Winston Knowles

AC: (1:55:12)
What was the, did you know any other international students while you're here?

PD: (1:55:17)
We had a lot of international professors. Okay, Mesh Galati. In economics, I remember, I was a really good student, I tried really hard because still, I remember making like a 53. And it was it was a B in his class. And I remember having a blue book, and I wrote, like, for an hour in this blue book just frantic writing. And he posted grades about 20 minutes after the exam, and he never looked at those exams. And then I met a heart Let me see [mumbling] Avatar Singhj was professor here, we have a pretty big Indian community here, by the way, Avatar and Harjeet Singh. And there's the daughter [unintelligible name] she became a doctor. So we've got, you know, we've got a lot of foreign professors here. We have a lot of foreign students who come here. In fact, my guess would be that's a great opportunity for us. Because, you know, there are a lot of students who would love to come to the States.

AC: (1:56:16)
Yeah, I was just, yeah, exactly. I think about that a lot now, but I don't usually think about it. I don't know that we have much documentation about if there were international students,

PD: (1:56:27)
but you know, I was able to put my son's in the preschool here at ECU. And you go in and watch him in the classroom interact. mirror glass, you know, I think the first time my son hit someone on the head with a truck, it wasn't the best of times, but they performed a lot of tests on them. So that you know, if there's any problem, you know, you discover those problems. That was right, that was pretty good. And then, you know, we lived on Fifth Street. So we, we spent every area, you know, walking on campus, we walked on campus, but we go to the library we come we, especially when we first had internet, you know, we had dial up internet, we come here, but every magazine, every newspaper, you know, we come over here for all sorts of things. And the library was always a wonderful place for me when I was in school because it was a quiet place to study and a great place to meet girls. And see South, the South Dining Hall was different from Jones. It had linen tablecloths, linen napkins, it was sort of a dress up place to go, you know, sort of, and they had the Baptist Student Union here. And that was a place where you go and get a plate of spaghetti for $1 You know, and they had some really good programs.

(1:57:38)
We missed, we barely missed the the Vietnam War protests and all about the year after Glenn Crawshaw was the president next year, they had sit ins and they had downtown and protest and all but, you know, when I was in school, I was so poor, I was just happy to be able to wear a white shirt and tie you know, I mean, if we're in the school business, many times you wear a tie, and you tried to dress up as best you could, you know, and and people who were very friendly, though, and if I didn't have a car, if you want to ride to Raleigh, to see your parents or something, you could put your little card up on the rider board. And so I would pick it up and call you and you know for dollar they give me a ride to Raleigh and back.

(1:58:25)
So that's how and but but you know, and it was the university was going through a metamorphosis, too. And that, you know, we were playing Westchester state, Parsons. I mean, all these schools you never heard of. And a big game on our schedule would be Furman or Richmond or Citadel.

(1:58:42)
We got the Southern Conference almost right away. And that was a wonderful conference because you're playing in Charleston, Williamsburg You know, Boone, Richmond, I mean, Greenville, South Carolina. Those are nice places to go. And, you know, Lexington, Virginia where VMI is located. And those are really nice spots. And yet we we did real well we overachieved and when Pat Dye got here, he came from Alabama, all of a sudden, we're beating Carolina and we're beating State, we're beating Duke. We're beating Wake Forest. And, you know, I think that really gained a lot of momentum for us. You know, it was high visibility. Of course, when we went to Peach Bowl.

(1:59:24)
That was a big deal, you know, 11 and 1, finished ninth in the country, and we sort of captured the attention of the nation and our application pool was way up. And you know, it's amazing that the football stadium when I came here had 17,000 seats, but bleacher seats on one side, wooden bleachers and telephone poles that block your view. And so to see how we've grown but you know, NC State when I was in high school, my junior year, played in old Riddick Stadium, they only had 17,000 seats. So yeah, and UNC would not play them in Raleigh, they would have to play over at Kenan Stadium in Chapel Hill, of course, seats 35,000 So when they opened up Carter stadium, my senior year in college, it was the first game they had seated 44,000.

(1:59:59)
The first game was 28,000 they lost South Carolina 28 to three or something. But they buil way out the country and everybody thought what the hell are you doing it way out there but now they it's been a good idea to build it so far. And, and of course having Menges we played, I worked in concessions the first game we played West Virginia was our first game here

AC: (2:00:29)
basketball?

PD: (2:00:30)
before that we played in the Christenbury gym, that Christenbury gym, Memorial gym. The first game we ever played there was against UNC tar heels, and it was against Frank Maguire's team. And I think they went into overtime before we lost. We had great teams during the 50s. We were like 23 and two and 21 and four and we had really good teams. One of my coaches in high school, Guy Mendenhall was called Spider because he's we're calling it real long arms, like a spider out there. But all those people loved their time at ECU. They enjoy their time here.

(2:01:02)
So I think I think most people have pretty good experience here. And, you know, we're close to the beach. I mean, I came I got I got pneumonia my sophomore year. And I had to go home for about a month and so I had to drop out. And so I had to come back in the summer to make up my studies. This is a great place to be in school in summer. I mean, we think nothing to drive down to Atlantic Beach and eat at Tony Santos seafood or something drive back. And it was it was a nice experience. I had my fraternity, the only fraternity I was in because I had aid, was an honors fraternity.

(2:01:39)
Phi Sigma Pi but it's a really good, okay, yeah. And Dr. Richard Tao was our advisor, but I remember we did we did initiation on Tar River bridge, blindfolded the guy, we put him up on his platform, and we told him, he was gonna jump in the river. 30 feet below. We weren't really going to have him jump in the river, though. So we said jump, we meant for him to jump forward. He jumped backwards. And he did jump into the river that he thought he was going to jump in the river. But we're horrified. We think we've killed him, you know, he just swims to the shore and we're not gonna do that again. But I mean, yeah, we weren't trying to hazing we were just trying to play a practical joke. Um, he would have jumped two feet, you know, the right direction. But just glad we didn't have cameras back then because we would've gotten in so much trouble, but you would wear a suit to the football game.

(2:02:25)
You would buy your date a corsage. Even while I was in law school, we didn't have any women at Chapel Hill. WC women's college or UNC Greensboro now would bring a busload of women over and you would wait there with your corsage in hand and your suit on and hope that she would pick you so you can take her to the ballgame. You pick her up at 10 you take her lunch to the ballgame, you take her supper, you bring it back at ten to go back Greensboro and there were people got married that way. That's how they got to meet their future brides. So it was a different time. Yeah, women wouldn't put up with that herding like cattle now I don't think but you know, but it was an interesting time and it was sort of a sweet time because you know, I mean, people thought nothing of thumbing a ride to Raleigh, just go out on the street somebody'd pick you up and take you because they didn't worry about your killing somebody.

AC: (2:03:12)
Right.

PD: (2:03:13)
It was a gentler time. Yeah, sweeter time, I guess in some respects. And you carried some weight to have a degree if you had a law if you had a college degree. And that made you know, that was a big deal. And everybody aspired to get a get a degree. And, you know, we had such respect for teachers, you know, like I say they really impact your life and Dr. Eakin used to make a speech for the BB and T Center for Leadership. He said, I'll bet every one of you can point to three teachers who change your life. And I think we all can yes somebody who believed in your encouraged you or pick you up when you're down and

You ever seen the movie The longest ride?

AC: (2:03:53)
No.

PD: (2:03:53)
Keep it in mind is Clint Eastwood's son is in it. And it's, it's about a teacher had a real impact on on a student, it's a sweet, romantic movie too so something you look forward to. anything else you can think of to ask me

AC: (2:04:12)
there might have been something but I think it slipped my mind. So that is okay. Well thank you so much for doing this.

PD: (2:04:24)
I appreciate the chance to do it. Like I say it's I had a really wonderful time here. And I was so enamored with Greenville that I was anxious to get back and you see it in a different light when you are citizen than if you're a student.

AC: (2:04:36)
Yeah.

PD: (2:04:36)
But you also see some real positive things and the positive energy it has, you know, but we went the Chamber of Commerce in when I was chairman decided on doing a sister city visit and we've done these two. Let me say we've done them to Charlottesville, Virginia. We've done them to Greenville, South Carolina, Tallahassee, Florida, Gainesville, Florida, Lexington, Kentucky, but we did one to Columbus, Missouri, we were playing the University of Missouri there in football, we played them two years in a row, and we beat them and they had a population of about 48,000, they had a university right downtown a little bit larger than ours, they had a medical school, and they had a vocational high school. That was really top notch. You know, we were always at that time encouraging people to go to college. But we should be encouraging a lot of people to go to community colleges or tech institutes too because you know, they're good jobs, they're good paying jobs there as a welder or refrigeration and heating and air conditioning, whatever. And they made it a real prestigious High School, where you learn automotive mechanics, and you learn heating and air conditioning, refrigeration and different things, electronics. And and they also had a two plus two program where you go to high school and get two years credit and Community College.

(2:05:54)
By the way, when Bill Muse came here, he told me about a program they had at Alabama at Auburn, he said, Auburn had a really illiterate population in Alabama. And so when new industry came down there, they were trying to educate their people. And so they would pay them more if they got a GED. Then they'd pay them more if they got an associate's degree from the community college. And they would skim time off for you to attend classes. And he said then they got their Associate's degree. And these people were sort of eager for more education, but how do they go to college, it wasn't very easy. And so he set up a bachelor of Bachelor of Technology program.

(2:06:32)
If you go to junior college, and a community college, I had finished your two years. So you're automatically admitted. And they would take you where you might know how to do heating and air conditioning for a residential home. They taught you how to do it for a hospital or manufacturing plant or big office building. And he said, people would just swarm to Auburn University to take these courses and learn to be something better, you know, and they got their general other general college they got on the back two years as opposed to the first two years. And he said, all of a sudden, half the population of Alabama are Auburn fans, because they are associating with us.

AC: (2:07:11)
Yeah.

PD: (2:07:11)
And taking courses. That's pretty good idea. Pretty good idea. And, you know, you really see the impact, but things like the dental school medical school have even the engineering school at the banquet for the Alumni Association. They had this gentleman went to NC State, he was working down in Camp Lejeune and Marine Corps Air Station, and he said we just need engineers. And he said, So he helped us set up a program here and engineers that is cranking out people left and right. And they all have good jobs. And there's a really big demand for that. But you know, there's so many people who are just struggling out there who I don't know how they I don't have people live, I don't if a woman's husband dies, and she's got 900 dollars of social security and that's all she's got live on.

(2:07:56)
How does she How does she do it? And we got to do a better job taking care of older people. One of my good friends was Chan, who ran the schewzan gardens restaurant right acrosss from the Greenville Museum of Art. It's now where we have our new sciences and technology building, life sciences buidling Chan Chan was a street urchin in Hong Kong. I mean, he cooked on the street, his family would catch fish, and they would fillet fish and cut off the head, cut off the tails, cut off the scales and they would filet the fish and then sell it to restaurants and other others but they'd also cook on the street to make money. And chan when he was 13 or 14 was a pretty good cook of this particular kind of cuisine they had over there.

(2:08:46)
This particular name for it I forget. but he he was really disturbed because he had a lot of the guts of the fish and tails and heads that to get rid of. And they just got dumped them in the harbor. And he came with this idea of going to the provinces on the outside of town where there were farms to sell it as fertilizer. So he started doing they started making some money, and he started getting guts and heads and tails for other people to do the same thing. And he was out there one day and he saw a piece of machinery that would fillet a fish, just feed the the fish in it, it would filet it. And he copied down. He didn't speak English.

(2:09:21)
He copied off the label on the manufacturing plant equipment, the name and they actually ended up buying one of those piece of equipment his family did, and it revolutionized their business. So they made a lot more money and they got got more and more prosperous, you know. And he said his uncle had come to DC to work in a restaurant. And they gave him $157 and sent him to Washington DC to go to work with his his uncle as a dishwasher. When they found out he could cook Cantonese, they started letting him cook and Henry Kissinger went to that restaurant was very fond of Cantonese. So he had a picture with Henry Kissinger.

(2:09:57)
He got a job down here working in a restaurant there used to be at Carolina East Mall. It used to be a nice theater, four cinemas and a really nice Chinese restaurant linen tablecloths and napkins. They told Chan, they would pay him $1 per meal he cooked. He said in the first day he got 42 meals, they said no it was 37. the second day, same thing. They're cutting him short. And he said I'm not going to have you take advantage of me like this. So he opened his own restaurant in a little beat up old service station where it's seated 14 People. He did well with it. relocated to Evans Street, built a restaurant, expand the restaurant, expand the restaurant, expand the restaurant took up the whole block horizontal width. And University came to him and said we'll give you $2 million for this block. And it changed his life.

(2:10:43)
And sadly, chan died at 59 He had an operation at Johns Hopkins and he died. But he was a wonderful man. He brought these people over from other countries. But he told me he said, My children have gone to ECU and NC State and UNC. But they're bananas. And I said what do you mean, they're bananas? He said, Well, in my culture, I brought my sister here, my mother, my father, my brother, all these people and taking care of them. He said, But but my children don't think like that. They're not gonna take care of me when I get older, then I'm gonna take care of my family. He said, they're bananas. They're yellow on the outside and white on the inside. You know, I thought it was interesting. But he brought all these people here to help them get a green card and we get a driver's license and to change people's lives. You know, he was just wonderful man. He he was having trouble with the university getting them to close on the deal. And he came to me because he knew I had some ties to university and he said, Would you please help me?

(2:11:44)
So I called someone I know here at the university I knew and they said, Phil, the only problem is we got to get council of state approval from the governor's office. And he said just takes a couple of months to do that. But they got it right away. And also they closed and Chan thought I'd moved mountains you know for him. I hadn't really done much. And I didn't even charge him and he said, Well, why don't you do this, when your children come home. I remember how much they enjoyed coming here. Oh, nights your wife had something you always bring the boys here to eat. He said, when they come out of college, why don't you have them all come, December 17. And I'll feed them a nice meal. Well, we're thinking this is great. You know, we'll have a lot of fun and it's good food. We get there and oh my god. He gives us pre dinner drinks, appetizers, soup and salad. He he brings up fish and Peking duck that he carved at the table and all this food. I mean, it's just me it was hundreds of dollars meal, and dessert and post post meal drinks. And he wouldn't let me pay for it. So I gave each of the waitresses, a $20 tip, just because they've been so nice, and he got upset that I paid them anything. So he insisted when he relocated to Greenville Boulevard, asaka bistro that I come again. So it became a family tradition.

(2:13:03)
Every time the kids came home from college we go eat at the restaurant, and it's just wonderful. It's just a wonderful tradition. So I'm missing that I missed that it was really a nice thing. But he was a good person you know, he just did like and there are lots of good people out there I think inherently good people you know, but especially if they if you recognize where people came from and where they are and you know there's a certain gratitude they want to show and pay it forward if they can you know, I mean there's a lot of times there's nothing you can you can do to pay somebody back but you can help somebody else sometimes. I think that and that's a service is our mission. Yes our motto, servire, servire I guess it is

AC: (2:13:46)
okay, well, what's his last name?

PD: (2:13:48)
I don't know Chan's last name. Always known him as Chan. But it's funny. His sister Louise, worked at Greenville Utilities Commission for a while she's now on the West Coast. And his sister Sue, worked in the restaurant as a waitress and didn't speak very good English. So I'm at the Alumni Association, purple gold gala Friday night. And there's a videographer there and an assistant videographer. And I strike up a conversation with him. And I'm talking and I'm talking, and I mentioned how much I miss Schewzan gardens. And the younger guy, the video guy. He's sue's son, isn't that amazing, small world.

AC: (2:14:33)
Yeah

PD: (2:14:35)
he talked about how much he missed his uncle Chan, you know, and Chan did all this research on where to go to get an operation and John Hopkins was best place but when they did the operation, they lanced an organ, so you had an internal bleeding and died from the internal bleeding. So you just never know. I had a lady who came into my office and she had, she had been to see her daughter in Florida, where the cruise ships leave from.

(2:15:03)
I think it's near Cape Canaveral, Cape Kennedy or something. But she said after she was there about a week, she was feeling like she was staying too long and they were so tired of her. So she looks at the paper and she sees that you can go on a cruise that's under booked, or they have extra rooms. And for two or $300 You get to go on a seven day cruise. So she starts going on cruises. She went on 30 cruises, because they're very cheap and she just got out and she gets it other people on the ship. And she said, if you if you sprained your ankle, they pay for all your medicals they feed you you get to go sit in the cabin stay with you. And they have men they hire on those cruise ships to dance with women who traveling alone. So she just had a ball. And she came in and her daughter told me Martha DeWitt told me that her mother had gone out to the hospital and gotten a transfusion, the wrong type of blood and died and it was just really sad. But she was having a gay old time though. And she said the cruise ship was cheaper than a nursing home, you know, and she had fun. She made a lot of new people. People on board the ship.

(2:16:05)
I got to Hyatt legal services used to pay me to handle work for their clients. And if you did a good job for them you got rated highly. They would send you on a cruise once a year we went about nine cruises. My wife finally says I'm done with cruises, you know, too much. But on the cruise ships, they would have women from England, who worked for a company like Revlon, a cosmetics company, and they put them on board the ship to learn how to do hair, makeup, pedicures manicures, you know, different things. And that was part of their training. And I remember talking to young girls who would say I would kill for fish and chips or a hotdog or hamburger because the food onboard the ship is so good. You know because they're catering to a crowd who's going on cruise but they said we miss all that common food. You know, it's nice to get back. Where? Where did you say you're from?

AC: (2:16:54)
Originally? Raleigh. I grew up.

PD:(2:16:55)
That's right. You're a high school? Yeah. Well, you say a lot of changes in Raleigh, but I've seen even more. When I was in high school. Raleigh was the same size that Greenville is today. That hard to believe.

AC: (2:17:07)
Yeah.

PD: (2:17:08)
You know, when you have a rock that drops in a pond, the waves sort of cascade out and affect other things. That's what Raleigh has done. That's what Greenville has done.

AC: (2:17:17)
Yeah. No, that's very true.

PD: (2:17:20)
I mean, you look at Apex, you look at Fuquay Varina, all those little towns Morrisville. I mean, everybody's been impacted by Raleigh's growth.

AC: (2:17:26)
Yeah.

PD: (2:17:27)
All your family's still there?

AC: (2:17:28)
My mother is there. And my father passed away about four years ago. And then my husband's parents both live there. Right near Athens drive High School and his brother lives there.

PD: (2:17:42)
Close enough.

AC: (2:17:43)
Yeah, they're all close together. So that is good.

PD:(2:17:46)
Well, I thank you for your time. I didn't mean to keep quite so long.

AC: (2:17:49)
My last question for you is when you were in school here, did you play any sports when you were in school here?

PD: (2:17:55)
No... I...

AC: (2:17:56)
Club sports? Um,

PD: (2:17:57)
well I did intramurals

AC: (2:17:58)
yes, intramurals.

PD: (2:17:59)
Yeah.Sure. I had a great time. Phi Sigma Phi had a team. In fact, I have a group of fraternity brothers in Phi Sigma Phi that I'm getting ready tomorrow at three to leave for a long weekend at topsail beach will be our 47th year of doing that.

AC: (2:18:16)
Wow.

PD: (2:18:17)
We play poker. We tell lies, we drink liquor. We smoke cigars. We watch football we eat a lot and just have a wonderful time they play golf you know we have a good time. But these are people will be my pallbearers, you know, and they're just dear friends. My friend Carl Joiner. Enjoy this one. Our friend Carl Joyner.

(2:18:32)
My best friend was supposed to be at my wedding. And he and his wife were pregnant. And they were so excited. They save up a bunch of money they decorate the nursery and and they're pretty far along and lost the baby. And it was not a it was maybe a couple of months before my wedding. And they were just crushed. They were just really took it hard and a lot of couples lose their first child we lost one had one last one just happens. But he had some money they had saved up for the baby and so they just hear so tell us why to Hawaii for a second honeymoon. And the last day they were there he dives in the surf and hits his head and breaks his neck and he's paralyzed from the neck down and had it not been for a wave washing him and flipping him over he would have died. A nurse on the shoreline recognizes what's going on holds head and some people move him over on the shoreline. They helicopter

PD: (2:19:36)
For him to a hospital where they do a lot of those surgeries because they'd had some very common accident apparently in Hawaii. They're there for three months. He doesn't know if he'll be able to walk again. They'll be able to have children again. So when he finally gets Okay, he says, Am I going to have children? Don't know. You'll just have to try. It turns out he can. He had two children.

AC: (2:19:58)
So he was able to walk.

PD:(2:20:00)
Yeah, he has a little bit of a hiccup Hiccup in his gittyup. But you know, you would not know that he had had a problem. And I teased him because I say just so you would have to rent a tux. You had that happen, you know, to avoid the wedding. Anyway, we called him on my honeymoon, not the honeymoon, the rehearsal dinner. And his wife had to hold the weights so he could move his mouth because they had his head in traction. And so we talked to him, but he's a great guy. And he has no particular pains except on one side. He can play golf, he can't play basketball. So he's a little fragile. We take him to Topsail Beach, early years, you know, and he's sitting in the back of the boat, and he's got a very expensive rod and reel belong to his brother. And all of a sudden the screws on the chair break and he flips out of the back right beside the motor.

(2:20:44)
barely missed getting cut that and we don't know he's out of the boat, because we're skipping through the surf heading out to the ocean. And all of a sudden we turn around, he's bobbing like a cork and we think oh my god, you know, he's, he's seriously fragile. This might be bad. So we zoom around when we find He's okay. He's lost his brother's fishing rod cost $100. So he's realy upset about that. we drag him back in the boat, it becomes a real joke, you know, and this was on Sunday. So when I got back to Rotary [Club] on Monday, he's supposed to be at Rotary. I go by the trophy house here, I get a trophy of a swimmer.

(2:21:15)
Holding a rod reel. I put on Topsail Beach swimming diving champion 1983. We had a lot of fun. He's just a good guy. And but I told my son, I said, I hope you have friends like this that you have from college. And it's funny because they do. They do have friends like that they get together. And I guess as an example that we set. My son David, for example, has a weekend in the fall where he gets together with a bunch of buddies, they go have a weekend together. He broke his collarbone last year doing that. Most of the time. It's a pretty good deal. But yeah, these are dear.

(2:21:47)
The relationships you develop are really dear. Yeah, I got one other story. I was a good student. And we used to have a a building called the Y Hut right beside the library, and they had a classroom, his classroom. And I took biology in that class and Christine Wilcox. Dr. Wilcox was my teacher. And I went into that exam. And she gave me an exam. And it was like I had taken a different class. I didn't know the answer to any of the questions and I thought, I'm gonna flunk out of school. Oh, my God, I'm gonna flunk out of school. I mean, I was just terrified that I'd really messed up. I considered not turning my test in.

(2:22:32)
I considered trashing it and pretending she lost it or something because it was that bad. Well, fast forward 25 years, and she comes in to see me to do a will. And I say to her, Dr. Wilcox. You gave me an exam one year, it was the worst exam I ever had, oh, my God, it was just terrible. And I was so grateful I got a good grade in your class because I bombed that exam. And she said, she said, My father died the day before that exam. And I was in such a bad state. I took an old exam and handed it out and I didn't count it. I wanted to strangle her. I mean, because she caused me all this angst because I thought I didn't know coursework, and she gave me an old exam that wasn't applicable, you know, but anyway, funny things happen when you're in college. I remember leaving the exam just feeling so, so down in the dumps. I thought my whole life was over.

(2:23:25)
AC: Alright, thank you so much, sir. Pleasure.

(2:23:26)
PD:Nice to see you.

[End of Recording]