[This text is machine generated and may contain errors.]

Don Lennon [0:02]
East Carolina manuscript collection oral history interview conducted December the third 1976 with Mr. R. Mayne Albright of Raleigh, North Carolina. And Mr. Albright was a gubernatorial candidate in 1948. The Democratic ticket he was a leader in the World Federation Movement in North Carolina and a leading attorney since that day. And usually I try to operate fairly informally. That mic is sensitive enough that you don't have to talk right into it to pick up conversation.

R. Mayne Albright [1:22]
Well, as they say, In the beginning, I was able to go on in my case it was on in North Boylan Avenue in what I suppose by now can be called Old Raleigh house at my parents who came from Greensboro, a lot rather that they bought was directly behind Elmwood. One of the historic houses now in Raleigh where Captain Ashe, former historian of the state and the former clerk of the United States District Court here they are with his with his very large family where our house was built in my parents in 1907 had been his garden and North Boylan was one of the [inaudible] that development and any rate his house was quite old. It was one of the new developments is Raleigh expanded from Blount Street to Hillsborough Street and South Boylan and then North Boylan Heights and South Boylan, North Portland Avenue later to Cameron Park and Hayes Barton, however, and that may be why this school was nearby. As I explained to my daughter quite some years ago now this was the old Wiley she thought the Wiley that she was attending was, was old was too old. She hoped to go to a new school but I went to the very old Wiley on the corner of Western Morgan Street, just three storey wooden building without the benefit of anything, safety precautions are now necessary in schools and quite ramshackle old building but with some great teachers Miss Sherwood and Mrs. Bates among them who later school was named public schools in Raleigh that time were not the best in the nation or as good as they were, perhaps become later although they did have those good qualities so many people of my age and my sisters three years older, went to private schools she went to Peace Institute is the elementary and junior college program. I was fortunate to go to a new school that had been opened here in Raleigh that was known as St. Nicholas School, out near State College is run by an Episcopal Minister Dr. Nicholas Collins Hughes, whose son Harding Hughes came to join him in the teaching later came back to Raleigh as a chaplain of St. Mary's and instrumental in the religious and civic life of Raleigh for many years. Dr. Hughes, old Dr. Hughes was a classic, still believed in Latin and Greek, in very strict discipline. And who even which I'm sure would be frowned upon in educational circles and these days, listed all of his students from one through 250, an academic rating each, each quarter with the top 10. This was flattering to those who had near the top a little discouraged to those that were not but he was very thorough, and I'll always believe that Latin however impractical, it may be in other ways is a excellent background for those who expect to talk and write and understand the English language and its it roots and meetings and Steli also found it very helpful when I spent over two years in Italy in and was learning to speak Italian I found that Latin was was very helpful. I stayed on it at St. Nicholas school, as I say around 250 students, boys and girls, incidentally from Raleigh families few from nearby towns with nearly all Raleigh, I say to my high school program and then went with Dr. Hughes to Blue Ridge School in Hendersonville. This was an interesting, small mountain school not like some of the rural cooperative mountain schools and suddenly not like Asheville School, which was a prestige school like Philips in Groton, and then other than catered most at out of out of state students. But this was a small school they have it except for the North Carolinian Carolinians who were there I guess the greatest number of non resident students came from Latin and Central America for some strange reason I don't know why except they were looking for I suppose a southern climb and a place to be somewhere in the in the States and some arrangement had been made but out of some 300 We probably had 30 or 40 of these students that added a good deal to the school and of course the benefits of being there. And also in the summer camps in the Brevard area that I was fortunate to attend for a couple of summers you had the advantage in in Blue Ridge of the mountain Appleton walks at night and also some canoe trips down the Brevard River and generally a good experience. After that, I um being a son of a good strong Presbyterian mother was headed for Davidson but I always liked Chapel Hill even in those days. And when they decided I was little too young then at 15 to go to Chapel Hill and especially as I didn't go to Davidson although it certainly is one of the great schools I think in the in the country now. I stayed out a year took some special work at NC State College then. And then where I practice going up anyway, being in St. Nicholas, we played football in front of Holiday Hall the yard is a little bit bigger than it is now. And red diamond baseball games and use a swimming pool, so forth. So I felt at home at it State. Incidentally, I think I mentioned the Boylan and my Boylan Avenue Residence another great advantage of childhood days and Boylan was in that rather productive neighborhood. I think we had 21 children on our our block. But some of us at least had the advantage of St. Mary's being so nearby because in the summer, we could play on the tennis courts and sometimes use that swimming pool and lawn and other things. At any rate, I'm adjusted to Blue Ridge for a year I stayed at State for about a half a year only a semester to take some of the things that my parents at least thought would be helpful to me. Including some math and some penmanship. I'm not sure that I learned much in the penmanship course, and also in bookkeeping and I suppose the thing it was perhaps most helpful other than the general experiences there a very fun course in in public speaking, which I have had occasions to do, please my share of since that time. At Chapel Hill, I was in various student activities and including being student body president, not my senior year, but in my first year of graduate work, which was accustomed just at that particular time. And I had majored in American history and was even then very much interested in, in, in politics, campus politics, of course, at that time. And that took them I took my master's degree in political science. And then after some indecision, went on to law school, this was of course the, the depression time then in 31 and 32. We in North Carolina of course felt the depression much more than the stock market crash in 1929 because it was 32 that the banks were closing on their own and 33 when Roosevelt declared the bank moratorium and those those would that were over they found out that our checks from home from banks that were now close so with most of the people what they had was a time in which you had to arrange some way to earn your your room and your board and other things in which I did through most of that my master's degree and a good part of my law school work in law school. I was a the manager of the Grand Memorial there's not not Frank Porter Graham as the new one is but the Edward Kidder Memorial it was opened in that year. And I had the good fortune that time to be able to live in the building. There was one little room apartment there

R. Mayne Albright [11:08]
to work with it with the cafeteria in there and so to make money and I believe as I recall now. When as a full time job that was very tremendous salary. For certainly for one who was a part of it was a hit was still in school at that time, but $125 a month, which in those days was was great. So with that I was able to leave that job and go on through law school. So I got my we can call it doctor of jurisprudence and be the change in added to Juris Doctor This is honors in in law school. And I did my got my master's degree in political science. Incidentally, I may be of some interest I did a lot of my work under under Dr. EJ Woodhouse, who was a very much beloved student teacher there, not only because of his, his teaching, which was very frequently from newspapers and current magazines, he was current topics history, we talked about what's going on in, in politics, here, and then. Partly and his influence and my own interest in first in campus politics. And then in the other outside politics. I wrote my master's thesis on the powers and the duties of the governor of North Carolina under the constitution of 1868. Because, as you know, it took us from about 100 years before we before we really revised our Constitution, we still use the old 1868 basis, which for its time, and considering that it wasn't drawn up at the Reconstruction Period, it was a quite a remarkable document. My thesis being that, although North Carolina then as before, and since has never granted the veto, and the governor does not have full powers as the political head of the state. He had. The governor of the state has always been very powerful figure in state government, I suppose, as powerful as it was any state government in the state governor, even those that do have the veto power. During that, that time at Chapel Hill in between really graduate school and law school. Another political campaign was coming up and I was interested in it. But I'd particularly I'd gotten interested in those late days. And the young democratic organization. Governor O. Max Gardner had formed a young democratic organization many years before. I think it was back about the time in one of the William Jennings Bryan campaigns, it was a young democratic movement. Mr. Gardner was a very young man participated. Then he of course, ran for lieutenant governor in 19, in 1920. And that and then excuse me. I'm wrong. He was he ran for governor in 1920. And within a very close race lost out and then was elected without any opposition whatsoever, unprecedented achievement in 1928. I mentioned him because he was interested in in these young democrats and they played a very important role in the 1928 election, which of course, was the Hoover Smith election, in which the state was With a fear that was that it was going to Republican not only in the national elections, but in the state elections. And the young democrats had a great deal to do with it, I was a little too young to participate in that but the young democratic organization got underway and I was active in it. And in ninth with the 1932 national elections coming up, I came over from Chapel Hill and called on Tyre Taylor. Tyre was a former Chapel Hill graduate who distinguished himself among many other things by being the only student I think to ever refuse being taken into Golden Fleece the highest honor society at at Chapel Hill. I was a member that at my at my student body year, incidentally, and so I couldn't understand that particular action, I would not want now to see Tyre anyway and out of that, one of the most interesting experiences I think, in life and politics or anything else he had had when he was Governor Gardner's secretary at that time. And this is this is in 30. During the 32. In the in in the spring of 32, the Roosevelt election coming up. Tyre was trying to organize a National Young Democratic Organization, because there were groups of young democrats in several states. So my connections with with him multiplied from occasional weekend visits, and sometimes during the week to attending one meeting in Washington, which he called together 12 or 14 states that had some young democratic, young democrats organizations or some kind to begin a sort of a National Young Democratic Program. This, this was earlier but this is possibly in 31 and 32, there was election drew near. He decided we ought to have a national young democratic movement underway and participate actively in the National Democratic Convention. So with a very small staff here in Raleigh, in fact, it consisted of of Tyra, who's working out with the governor's office, are very attractive and brilliant, young lady, I thought she was an older lady at the time, but she was relatively young anyway. Little Martin [McCean] Scott, who's active in politics. Later on, we found this three man team, many people were advising us, and Tyre with his wild imagination and lack of inhibitions of any kind, got in touch with National Democratic Headquarters, got their assistance and got their permission for us to put them on national, young democratic dinner during the Chicago convention. So off we went, I went up about a week earlier, knowing nothing about what I was doing. But we went on, went on to Chicago, set up headquarters in the LaSalle hotel, and followed up on the cause we've been making all over the country, we had called all the prominent people you could think of to ask them if they would be speakers for free at our National Young Democratic Convention. Many of them Will Rogers particularly was very undecided whether whether he would or not until he heard about it. And where as it developed. Anyway, in in Chicago, about a whole string of miracles, we pulled together a tremendous dinner. I don't know how many people attended attended it at LaSalle hotel, but it was overflow crowd, several hundreds. We had none other than that Will who did appear as a master of ceremonies. Robert Maynard Hutchins, then at the very height of his fame was the keynote speaker, the speaker Will introduce him as Nicholas Murray Butler, and then quickly corrected himself of course, he's he's a Nicholas Murray Butler of the Democratic Party. We have Admiral Richard Byrd, who was it his fame then the we had the Oklahoma Kilties for some music and hired a men's chorus group it was just a tremendous event. And, of course, in the in the convention itself, we were able to see that remarkable convention when Roosevelt won the nomination and one of his first of his unprecedented moves came into personally accept the nomination I think that had not been done before. And in his a very dramatic flight, or they'd say his, his plane is approaching here. He's getting here he is, he's landed. He's in the car. And then he came and then his son James and someone else lifted him up huge man that he was and lifted him up onto the onto the speaker's platform with his smile and marvelous personality, and he made this wonderful acceptance speech at that time. I may be incorrect about that. I'm almost sure this was the time in which he said we have nothing to fear but fear itself.

R. Mayne Albright [20:33]
We never would have done this except for Mayor Cermak. Who was later the victim of an assassination attempt anyway anyway whether they were aiming at him or the President, it wasn't clear but Mayor Cermak was of power of course in Chicago and was the power in Chicago. He was the boss. And he had a he had a young, handsome son in law, who was he had, I think designated head of the Young Democrats and was speaking for the mayor and when he said we wanted a police [inaudible] and we will have a parade or we wanted a sign, whatever we wanted done. It got done. So the young democrats at this convention had quite a time but of course the main reason that I was speaking of it particularly it was was being that I think before I cast my first vote I was 21 or 22. Then anyway, it is not in a presidential campaign and and to be there it wasn't the it wasn't the badge it got me in something like honorary assistant Sergeant of Arms or something just just to get it at the door. It wasn't a in a things so so feeling of being personal pride as much as as being a part of a really tremendous and historic occasion. Well,

Don Lennon [21:55]
Any other comments concerning Tyre Taylor?

R. Mayne Albright [22:00]
Well, Tyre was it was a brilliant young man, he did not continue active in politics. He his main contribution, of course, was as he was the founder of the National Young Democratic Organization, no doubt about that. He was one that pulled it together. He was its first unofficial president until we had a general conventions and elections and instead of fine note for it. Shortly after that, however, he went on to to Washington and did not take any other parts as far as I know in state politics. He had been very active with Governor Gardner and in Governor Gardner's success of Governor Ehringhaus through that campaign. He organized for Ehringhaus. That's a one to one step at that. I mentioned having seen him over here where I really met him in he he wanted to organize a Young Democratic Club for Ehringhaus and that campaign and at his request. I headed that up. That was my connection with Tyre. He was a reader. He was a thinker. He was not particularly noted as a speaker. He was a behind the scenes worker. He's not a we're not one who would have run for office. But he would be a good a great organizer and stringfellow.

Don Lennon [23:18]
We have a small collection of his papers. And we tried to get more and his son who is still living in Washington did not come through as well substantial quantity.

R. Mayne Albright [23:32]
After Tyre left here he went with them with a trade organization. And he became more and more I guess it's not too unusual. Some people more and more conservative. He was he was quite quite a liberal, at least in the Governor Gardner tradition, which was a liberal, the liberal tradition of those years anyway. And he Tyre became I don't know because of his particular position he was he was with a trade organization connection in connection with textiles. And he was first with cotton textiles. And then he went with another trade organization and did well in a business way. But he became very bitter about national government and took no no parts as far as I know in state politics or national politics thereafter. Which is too bad they lost a talented man.

Don Lennon [24:26]
Thinking in terms of the elections during that period 28 to 32. Any thoughts or context or observations concerning such people as [inaudible] Jarman, or Furnifold Simmons, or Josephus Daniel's, real powers and in politics along with the Governor Gardner?

R. Mayne Albright [24:46]
Well, of course all although now, now, I guess I'm not among the exactly among the young democrats at that time. These were all far older, older people. I think I never personally saw Furnifold Simmons I sent to Simmons I have certainly read a lot about him and he in a reverse way rather shaped my career. Mrs. Palmer Jerman, I believe it is spelled j with Ms. Palmer Jerman was was one of the one of the many women in the state who, who came into prominence in as as pioneer women in politics. She was one of the greats as was his Annie Bost later who succeeded. I worked with Ms. Bost I knew her very well, they, the young woman of the time, who, for some strange reason, it was disassociated by accident, I think from the National Democratic Movement was what was the first the prime organizer of the North Carolina young Democrat, Ms. May Thompson Evans, who was later than head of the Public Employment Service here in the state. And I did not even know her. We've talked about that later when she and Dewey Dorsett, who is later chairman of the Industrial Commission here in the state, [Don Alley] from Waynesville, Edwin Gill, really, although he had belonged to the young democrats and in the Gardner thing more than the organization of them a little later than that. They were the ones that were very active in forming the state, Young Democratic Organization. And I think I think this is a this is a matter of this worthy of a historical study of its own what the young democrats have done here in in the state by bringing sort of a new dimension to politics in the state.

Don Lennon [26:45]
Did John Lang get involved in that? Or was he totally with the Acts of Student Federation concept?

R. Mayne Albright [26:52]
John, John did was active in the in the young democrats not in this not in the organization stages so much he was later. It I'm not sure when he went, but I was in the National Student Federation with John, he had he and I went to a meeting. I'm not sure I went to two meetings, as as the incoming student body president, and the next time as a member of the National Board of Governors or the board of directors I suppose, or the National Student Federation. And John came in a little bit later, although we are in the same we were in the same class, as a philanthropic society and so forth. John, I suppose was some sort of delicate at large up there. And then he became got on the board and was president of the National Student Federation. Since then, I can't overlook this though among the other fortunate and memorable experiences in my time, the head of the National Student Federation, when I went up there was I thought, the most handsome and brilliant and galant young man and the best speaker I had had ever had ever heard. That was Edward R. Murrow and he later went on with the International Education Program, whatever whatever it was called and then got into broadcasting of course.

Don Lennon [28:23]
Williams was also involved in it was he not?

R. Mayne Albright [28:27]
I had no car I don't know that I have no connection with him. I remember he was Governor of Michigan, I did not know him or have any connection with National Student Federation. That was a that was a great experience. You met students from all over the country that and the young democratic thing and the national level too were great experiences. Incidentally, when I get off that just for a moment, the Scottsboro case and see the last of the Scottsboro persons who who convicted that Scottsboro thing who's guilty I felt was always in some doubt. So today had many other people of course at the time, but he wanted, some of us was not not officially for the National Student Federation, but person to go into Scottsboro that was far beyond my region, and knowledge and, and anything else. I never did go I don't know what he did. But he also said, I have a letter from him some where in which Ed wrote and told the folks who had been on this national board and he said, this was this must have been in 30, maybe 33, 34, after after they were to these this meeting, and he left the presence here. But he said the most interesting things in the world today are going on in Russia and said we must we must go over there let's let's get five or six of us and go there without any preconceived notions and see what what we as student played, people over here can find out for ourselves. I thought oh, this the greatest opportunity in the world. He was going to get some sort of a way for us to go, whether it was foundation money or whatever it was, I know, unfortunately that never materialized. But it's still exciting thought to think about. It took me, it took me incidentally from them until last year with a with a UNC tour to get to get [inaudible].

Don Lennon [30:21]
Did the Federation become involved in the Scottsboro affair?

R. Mayne Albright [30:24]
No, no, this it did not. As far as I know, this was Ed's idea because he had a exploring inquisitive mind and shop here and heart for injustice, he felt that this this is this is wrong, that these people have not had a fair trial. It was not only racial, but it was a lot of the prejudices and discriminations that may come in a prejudice era, even even through the court system. And he was actually supposed to look into it for for some of us. I suppose by that time he was, he may not have even been in the Student Federation at that time because he gone on in some international educational work.

Let's see. Going back to the Young Democrats, and I spoke about May Thompson Evans, who with her husband, Judge Nate Evans was laid on the Court of Claims in Washington, they were the real organizers of the of the Young Democrats. And out of that, she was brought in by Capus Waynick, of course, was well known in the state and many different capacities. When, when they formed a Public Employment Service here in North Carolina, they called on the Department of Labor [laws] to come to a special meeting in Washington to see about this, of course, was the time of really great employment that not just the what we've adjusted six to 8 million we have at the present time, this was real unemployment period, then in in 32. And this at the beginning, just for the beginning of the Roosevelt, I guess now, I guess we're just in 33, when Roosevelt took office at any rate they asked the Secretary of Labor, to designate someone to come to a meeting to talk about forming a National Reemployment Service, as a temporary basis for state employment services under United States, he promises Capus Waynick went out and became appointed, he was sent out by Major Al Fletcher, who was head of the Department of Labor here. And he was he was sent out there to talk about it, or maybe he was one was nominated anyway, he became the National Reemployment Service director, the first one in the state. I must mention this interesting incident out there, he said that if they were people from different states who are out there to be considered for these jobs, and to talk about it, and there was there was there was one who was a sort of ordinary looking fella, and if he had had to take a vote, they would have certainly had voted him the most least least likely man of the entire group of 48 that were out there. And he was later appointed to this reemployment director and was Harry S. Truman. But is that interesting? Because you remember what a meteoric rise he had after those times then he was a sort of a country judge in Missouri at that time had not been the sen, of the United States Senate. And not begun his career. But at any rate, Capus came back here and headed that up and asked May Evans to be his assistant. And she did she she did work together in the young in the Young Democrats, she became his assistant organizer of the National Reemployment Service for North Carolina. Then on the Wagner Peyser Bill, which is was enacted in 1935. They set up a state employment service, which which was the purpose of the national of the temporary National Reemployment Service. And May Evans was the first director. She went out as Frank Graham at the University where she could get some young man over there to be her administrative assistant. And he was kind enough to mention my name among others. And so she called over and as I say, we've been working in Young Democratic Servces, but I really didn't know her at that time at all. And asked me if I would, would work in this brand new agency that I'd never heard of, and I said, No, I didn't, didn't think I would. And finally, as we talked with, I had no I was just finishing up law school after an interrupted course in law with my grand memorial work and others. And finally, I was flattering off, I should have been had sense enough to realize what it what it was. But I thought, well, I'll do this for six months and pay off my law school debt. So I ended up serving as as in this service, until, till I got into into into World War Two, about six years. And that was it was a great experience, she, May went on to become one of the co-chairman of the, of the Woman's National Democratic Committee in Washington. And she left here about a year later, 1937. And I had been her administrative assistant, sort of an assistant director, which had nothing to do with my succeeding to her job, because it was, I think, at that time, May came in at $3,000, a year for a head of a head of an agency, that would now be 30,000, I suppose. But anyway, there was it was a it was a very good job for those times. And there was another criticism as it was those times a woman holding the job and set the salary anyway, when she left, I would have had no chance to, to be director of the service, except for the fact that the United States Employment Service, which is paying most of the bill for these services, had determined upon a system of merit examinations, from which people had to be selected. So I was fresh from my master's examination, my law examinations and taking the bar examinations so I was really ready for examination. When I when I took it, I was fortunate to place it at the head of the list, and they could select from the top, top three, the people that there would be there was there was one almost destined department, perhaps a destined department or another one until the examinations came out. And then people did more than want to take examinations. And so I came in as director of this service, which now developed into the Public Security Commission that was in state of public service. I was 26, then maybe I was just I just turned 20. Yeah,it's still 26, I believe, at that time. And I was the youngest youngest director of this program. They had one in each of the 48 states and I was the youngest director of it and stayed on with it is a great experience we had, I believe we had about 75 offices in the state, most of them small offices that had been put together hurriedly it wasn't quite a very scientific organization, but through me and some of the people that came down, we all had stars in our eyes and worked awfully hard and thought we were doing a very important work in these times I speak the word.

Don Lennon [38:00]
This was not related to the agency that Mrs. JB Spillman was

R. Mayne Albright [38:05]
Yes, later on. Yes. See, this was this was the public employment service that began before unemployment compensation came in. Now.

Don Lennon [38:15]
That's why I asked if this was unemployment [inaudible]

R. Mayne Albright [38:20]
Yeah, that's right. It's [inaudible] the employment service. And then as the government sometimes works, when when this new service came in, was supposed to be linked with it. It was later so it became the the overall agency, those that was in the employment service. So jobs are to come first before being unemployed. But no this wasn't one of the things that it worked, it works out. So under Governor [Hoey]. My appointment was was through Governor [Hoey] too because he was just about the change from the hearing house to to the governor who administration, but at any rate, she was she was one of the three appointees that Governor [Hoey] made on what was then the Unemployment Compensation Commission, which combined the Employment Service and this new unemployment compensation to deal with the two equal divisions under the three man commission. Mr. Charlie Powell, was the chairman. Currently Al Fletcher was the other member while also Secretary of Labor and Ms. Spillman. And then then the name was changed later to the Employment Security Commission rather than unemployment. The emphasis was back near but it wasn't the first on the employment part of it our employment security. Well see, as I as I said, I stayed with this employment service and incidentally, I went out to some of the meetings of the national group as almost every organization seems to have a national association, I went to one or two of those meetings, was on their board, and in 41, I served as as National President of the what was then the the International Association of Public Employment Services. It's still disclosed goes on rather influential organization in this whole field of, of Employment Security. I served there until I went into into the army in April of 42. From from 47. Well, that was an abrupt break up of course, I was commissioned as a as a first lieutenant in the Air Corp, and was headed for Maxwell Field. And the people in the United States Employment Service were had all been commissioned in, in the Army Service Force Headquarters in Washington that because they were recruiting people for and handling the manpower, the civilian manpower problems for the army. So they asked me to, to come up there and persuade and that was the that was the place to tell us would be better suited than whatever I might have been doing in the in the Air Corp I'm sure that would have been some sort of personnel position or something down that time. So then I served in the Army Service Force Headquarters for just about a year about 14 months and switched over to Allied Military Government.

Don Lennon [40:05]
What were your duties in this year in Washington to the Allied service?

R. Mayne Albright [41:38]
Yeah, in the in the well, Jim Mitchell, who was later Secretary of Labor. Today, I just saw his brother Todd Mitchell the other day at the rerun of Gone With the Wind, he was he was [inaudible] thrown off the horse. But there's this was Jim Mitchell, [inaudible], he was head of the Civilian Personnel Division of Army Service Force Headquarters. And a group of us who had been in some type of personnel and employment work served with him. And our job was to chart the civilian personnel in not only in military units, but the civilian personnel problems that arose in in military suppliers. We we had a tour of most of the large aircraft factories that were just coming into the owner that time and went to, to see the cause of ship ship works. This was this was not that we could do anything at a visit but to see the people who are in charge of personnel there and tie in their recruitment with Army policies. That was the chief chief work there. At the year that was that was very interesting, right. But after a year, I was ready for something else and being interested in in government, I applied for a transfer to military government and went to the military government school, they'll short schools in that time, because time was weighing on and in the war, I was out that then sent out to Fort Custer near Detroit, and our unit was not a fancy unit like they had in in Charlottesville and to three other places. It was a little different kind of military government because we were connected with the military police. They were looking more at at civic government in occupied areas, which all of us got involved in. But the particular unit that I was was assigned to rather than the Charlottesville group was was this one, I had side benefits and because after I hadn't been on the wrestling team at Carolina, they had it of course in judo, which I found fascinating wish I wish I'd had that when I was going to be a college wrestler. But that was a it was a good experience. And since they did need people in this employment field, overseas and in our military government, there weren't as many people with any experience in this field as in some of the others. I shipped out a little early from the school in fact, I only had about a month that I had paid for customs. And it went through Patrick Henry on Liberty Liberty ship. And we came on up to Africa just waiting for an assignment there. Worldly experiences going through Africa and seeing those troops coming back from the background, the British boys mostly in pitiful sights, they had dinner with Montgomery. Through that, I was late assigned to to the 8th army group, the desert rats and so forth and had the privilege of knowing those those English people who could wherever they were they made themselves at home as if they're gonna be there forever they'd been in the war six years when we had just gotten in it, you know, and when they set up a tent, they had all the conveniences, a bottle of Scotch, a deck of cards, often a hunting rifle. And they would indulge in the nicer things of life until they the bombing came and then they would go go to their duties, go to the lodge or whatever it was certainly the most admirable people, but at any rate in this in this military government, I think this is perhaps the most interesting part of my own experiences in it. I was was sent then from North Africa into Sicily for a short while and then taken over on one of the transport boats to Brindisi, Brindisi, you know, is in the, in the very bottom of the boot of Italy. And the reason for that was that, that Colonel Bedell Smith and General Maxwell Taylor had just had that spectacular, daring, heroic mission to see King Victor Emanuel and persuade him in Marshal Badoglio to come with Allies, the fascists was still there, they went there, the Nazis were still in there. And because Mussolini was there, although he had, he had moved on up north by that time, but they got they took Badoglio, not the king, but Badoglio and brought him down to Brindisi, to to work with Allied government in starting up a new holding government for Italy. And that was a small group, I was in military government to work with these people from Rome who've been brought brought to Brindisi, it was later moved to Salerno to work with the new Italian government. And so as it was not because of any special abilities, or had some experience in that, I was down there. I was the early, I won't say [inaudible] officer exactly, but at that time, but I was the Allied government connecting link with it with a newly appointed Minister of Industry, Commerce and Labor for this new government and the government was nothing but about five or six men.