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Francis, Michelle A., Oral Interview: Jack Kiser and Dorothy Auman, May 17, 1983 CE

Oral Interview

Jack Kiser

Steed, NC 17 May 1983

JK: Jack Kiser
DA: Dorothy Auman
INT: Interviewer, Michelle A. Francis

(Begin Side 1)

DA: . . .around here in one way or the other, didn't he? He made us a wheel. Harwood worked, and somehow or another, he ended up helpin' everybody. But now you was tellin' about this, this form that he made over here at Jase Cole's.

JK: Yeah, he made it at home I suppose, though.

DA: How, how high was it? Would it a'been four feet?

JK: Oh, yeah, it would a'been.

DA: Well, boy I'll tell you now, that's some big pots to be made around here.

JK: Well, it separated once they'd made it. It's simple, you could make it. I mean, any, anybody could do it. No skill.

DA: I wonder if they've still got that. Wonder if they've still got that form.

JK: I don't know. It's at Jase's place. She could tell you.

DA: Yeah.

INT: It was collapsable [collapsible], wasn't it?

JK: Yeah. You took it out. . .

DA: Take the pieces out, he says.

JK: [Unintelligible] the shoulders on it. But you could, you could, like I say, had a key, he carved it. Take out that little piece. Then it sort of collapsed around and you could take it out a piece, and prop it up. It didn't have a bottom. Then you made your bottom on a wheel.

DA: Yes, uh-huh.

JK: Then set the mold up there and made it. You had to,

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

you couldn't use regular clay, I think it would maybe a'cracked firin' it, or at least thought so.

DA: Anything that big would have.

JK: So they made it out of clay, in other words, ground up pottery, made sure that it. . .

DA: Yeah, sagger clay.

JK: Like you make saggers with. And then they'd switch it over to slip. It looked just a pretty as. . .

DA: Wouldn't you, I wonder what happened to all those pieces?

JK: Huh?

DA: I wonder what happened to all those pieces?

JK: Well, people's bought 'em. I know two or three up in the mountains bought 'em from both potters just to have it for an exhibit.

DA: Ooh, I'd love to have one of those!

JK: I don't think anybody ever bought 'em, maybe a customer had bought 'em more than just advertisement for pottery shops or somethin'.

DA: Yeah.

JK: Harwood could make anything if he wanted to.

DA: He really could. You know, she went over and saw Harwood. But he's not able to talk but just a little while at a time.

JK: What's the matter with him?

DA: You didn't know he was sick?

JK: No, I heard about his wife dying.

DA: Well, he's very sick. He has, he has the same thing.

JK: You know, back when they tore up the old, workin' on the old plank road. Did you ever see any of those candlesticks he made with them?

DA: Hm-um.

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

INT: Hm-um.

JK: Well, the old plank road, you know, was made out of two or three inch lumber and they turned to lighter just because.

DA: Yeah. Uh-huh.

JK: And he turned a bunch of those old pieces and turned wooden candlesticks out of 'em. They were beautiful things.

DA: Well, I declare. He can just do anything.

JK: He can.

DA: He really can. Now--what year did you start workin' in the pottery?

JK: Well, it had to be after I come out the Navy, so it's about '30 almost.

DA: .1930. Yeah. Well you started where, up here at Walter Lineberry's?

JK: I never seen a piece turned.

DA: Yeah, Walter was tellin' me that you said you just went in and just, just started up turnin' big stuff. Said you didn't know you couldn't. (Laughter)

JK: Walter Lineberry, he, he'd worked at Jase's and I didn't. You know, folks think that if it's hard, it's hard. I didn't, I thought it was just, I.

DA: He didn't know it was hard so he went to work on it.

INT: So you just went in there?

JK: Yeah.

INT: Huh!

JK: They made stoneware then.

DA: How long'd you work with Walter?

JK: Oh, Bascome King worked over there till he come-- [unintelligible]. It wasn't too long. At that time, you know, some of 'em was only payin' maybe 10, 12 cents a gallon.

DA: Yeah.

INT: Mm-hum.

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

JK: Well, when I turned stoneware with Arthur [unintelligible]. Wait a minute, I can't even call names anymore.

DA: Comer?

JK: Well, he only got 12 cents for his. I was thinkin' 'bout a person should have bought a few truckloads. That one jug that I made over there, and I think it cost me 12, 15 cents and some guy from [unintelligible] over there a professor, "I'll give you $25 for that jug." If he'd offered me $2 I might a'took it! But he offered me $25! (Laughter)

DA: Scared you, didn't it! (Laughter) Well, after you left, after you left Walter Lineberry's, did you go to work for Jase over there then?

JK: For who?

DA: Jase Cole?

JK: Jase? Yeah.

DA: Well you stayed with him a right good while, then didn't you?

JK: Well, I didn't stay nowheres very long. (Laughter)

DA: I was just tellin' her that you went from one shop to the other shop and turned.

JK: I was what they called a "boomer", I believe.

DA: A journeyman potter.

JK: I'd go from one place to the other.

DA: Yeah.

JK: I can't stay.

INT: What did you do after you worked for Jase Cole?

JK: Well, I don't know which pottery. Arthur Cole, Herman Cole, I don't remember.

INT: When you first started and you didn't know anything about it and you thought it was easy, did you just kind of experiment on your own, or did you kind of copy shapes that other potters were turning?

JK: Well, the only turnin', the only wheel I ever saw was right when I started.

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

INT: You had never seen anybody turn?

JK: I cain't remember as I did.

INT: Yeah.

DA: They said that he just put down like 10, 12, 15 pounds on that wheel and just went to work on it and turned it.

INT: And just turned it.

DA: It was just that simple for him.

JK: Well, don't you think it would be simpler for some other young person that didn't, that hadn't seen it done and heard that it was hard to learn or somethin'?

DA: It might be.

INT: It might be.

DA: It might be. (Laughter) Well, what, when did you work over at Charlie Comer's?

JK: That's the name I was tryin' to think of.

DA: Uh-huh.

JK: Oh, I don't know. It was during the, before the war, during the Depression. I know Walter Lineberry told me about this nigger that used to turn over at [unintelligible] Mill. He broke the record, he turned a hundred gallons of pottery one day. Wasn't that the longest day in the year. So, Ronnie Brewer was makin' balls for me.

DA: That was Rance Steed you're talkin' about now.

JK: I don't know.

DA: Yeah, Rance Steed was his name.

JK: Well, he told me but I don't--so me and Ronnie decided we'd see how much we could make. 'Course he was probably makin' gallon stuff and we made 4-gallon jugs. I think we made two-hundred-and-some gallons by 12:00 and went home.

DA: (Laughter)

INT: (Laughter)

JK: You turn, don't you?

DA: I turn, but I don't turn that much and I don't turn big stuff.

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

JK: Well, I reckon you'd turn more gallons, you know, you got paid by the gallon.

DA: Yes, if I got paid by the gallon, I might, it might entice me to turn more pieces.

JK: A 4-gallon churn, I believe, we broke the record just because we was turnin' 4-gallons.

DA: Jack, today, if you had a piece of clay and a wheel, do you think you could turn?

JK: I doubt it.

DA: Oh, I don't believe--it's like ridin' a bicycle. I bet you'd just go right. . .

JK: No, it's not like ridin' a bicycle.

DA: (Laughter) I bet you'd go right to it.

JK: I [unintelligible] Arthur Cole a long time, at Sanford.

DA: Yeah.

JK: And at that time I had a thrashin' machine and I'd quit and come home and thrash wheat for a couple of months and go back over there and it was awkward as the dickens the first day.

DA: Just gettin' back in the groove. Yeah. Well, you're sort of noted for turnin' big stuff. Now, on the average, what was your largest pieces, like when you turned at Jase's and when you turned at Royal Crown, you turned big stuff. You know, stuff like this. What was the average poundage in a piece that you would make?

JK: Oh, I don't remember.

DA: Well you turned big things, large pieces.

JK: No, we didn't have nothin' but a kick wheel. You couldn't do a, you couldn't kick it and get too much, you know. At that time, 'bout 22, 23 inches is 'bout as high as you'd get I reckon.

DA: Well, that's a big piece of pottery.

INT: Yeah, it is.

JK: Well, 20 inches I think is a nice piece of pottery.

DA: Yeah. Do you remember how many pounds of clay you'd put in that?

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

JK: No, I don't.

DA: You would cap it one time, or twice?

JK: The largest ones, twice.

DA: Yeah, see. Now he capped it just, he, he. . .

JK: I believe there's an old picture here of uh, . . .

INT: He'd turn it, a piece, up a certain height? And then turn another piece to cap it with?

DA: Uh-huh. Cap it off, set it off. And then turn the bottom and set this other piece back up on it.

JK: Philmore Graves, you know, he turned at, Jase's a while.

DA: Uh-huh. Yeah Philmore married Nell.

JK: Mm-hum. He never could turn any size, you know.

DA: No, he turned some nice pieces, but it never was any size that he turned. But you've always, when anybody mentions Jack Kiser, it's big stuff, you know. Really large pieces.

JK: Now there's one of Philmore here with a big piece. He wanted to have his picture made with it. All I got's ponies now.

INT: Have you got any other pictures of potters or yourself or other people?

DA: He can't hear you.

INT: That's all right. Mr. Kiser, have you got any photographs of old potteries that you worked at?

JK: I'm looking for one, but I can't. And you know that I had no tellin' how many pieces of pottery, give this one and that one away, and I'm down to nothin'.

INT: What do you, you've got a piece in the kitchen you keep lookin' at?

JK: Huh?

INT: Have you got one in the kitchen? You keep lookin'.

JK: No. I think there's one or two maybe in that other room.

INT: I'd like to see them.

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

JK: Hate to have lost that one of Philmore. I think I had it.

INT: Did you find turning big pots more of a challenge?

JK: Huh?

INT: Did you find that turning big pots was more of a challenge?

JK: No. I didn't think so. Charlie Craven turned just as big as anybody. Did you know him?

DA: Yes. Uh-huh.

JK: He turned big stuff down there at the. . .

DA: Merry Oaks.

JK: No, at uh, Cole's son" what was his name? Run that pottery down there at Smithfield.

DA: Herman.

JK: Herman. Yeah, he made big stuff, I mean Charlie turned some.

DA: Uh-huh. Yeah. But he didn't make anything bigger than what you made.

JK: Well, just as big, I imagine.

DA: Well.

JK: Yeah, Charlie Craven did. He had a reputation of makin' big stuff.

DA: Yeah, he did.

Mrs. K: Is he still workin'?

DA: He turns a little bit and they fire it out at Jugtown now. He turns just, you know, a few pieces now and then.

Mrs. K: How old is he?

JK: Who?

DA: Charlie.

JK: Charlie Craven?

DA: Mm-hum.

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

JK: I thought he lives in Raleigh.

DA: Well, he is, but he's got, he's set him up a wheel in his garage out there and he turns a few pieces and will bring it over to Jugtown and they fire it for him. I don't know how old he is. I really don't. He had a, he's got a son that looks just like him and his son and he looks the same age.

INT: Really?

DA: So when nobody, you know when they're ageless, it's hard to tell.

JK: Oh, there's Philmore.

INT: That's a big piece, isn't it?

DA: Uh-huh. Oh, that's nice, isn't it?

INT: Those are good photographs. Where was this taken?

DA: Cole's.

INT: Was this at Cole's?

JK: I took it.

INT: You took it?

JK: Yeah, that's up at Jase Cole's. Him and myself turned in the same room. I remember those tall trees there. I went down to Herman Cole's, me and uh, Cole, oh, what's his name. I can't think of names. And we saw that, he hadn't seen that piece before so, I come back and made one like we'd seen there. And I heard that Charlie Craven had made it. So Philmore wanted his picture made with it, to make us think.

DA: He made it. (Laughter)

INT: Uh-huh.

DA: Do you have a picture of yourself?

JK: Huh-uh.

DA: Not a single picture?

JK: That makes me mad. That I've got pictures of the Great Wall of China and I made the pictures. Haven't got a picture of myself. I made the pictures, I never thought about myself. I made quite a few pictures when we were on the Great Wall and good pictures, good as those. They're all of somebody else. I had one of myself I made it

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

standing up there on the wall, and it made a double exposure, so you can't hardly tell who it is. (Laughter)

INT: When was this trip?

JK: Huh?

INT: Tell me about this trip that you took with the photographs. What did you say you took a photograph of that was double-exposed?

JK: I can't hear.

DA: When did you go to take the picture of the Great Wall of China? When you was in service?

JK: When I was in the Navy.

DA: In the Navy?

JK: Yeah, the ship stayed in China. I stayed in China, I was up and down the coast and we caught the train and went up there.

INT: Did you see any Chinese pottery?

JK: No, I wasn't interested in it. I didn't. . .

DA: Michelle, have you got your camera with you?

INT: I do. I should.

DA: Why don't you take a picture of him with a piece of his pottery now. At least you'd have that.

INT: Mm-hum.

DA: You know, at least you'd have that much on it.

INT: I'm trying to decide. I've got black and white film and I've got color film.

DA: Jack, would you let us copy these?

INT: Could we borrow these?

DA: And copy them?

INT: And make copies of them?

JK: Sure.

DA: Well, you know now, I'll take care of 'em. Now she'll take 'em to the archives over at Raleigh and they'll just make copies of 'em.

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

INT: They'll make copies and then if anybody ever wants any copies, you can just tell. . .

DA: And then they'll be there always. But now on the back of the master one, be sure and tell that Jack made that and he's standin', posin' beside of it, because there's no point in him gettin' credit.

INT: No, I'll do that. Did you make both of these? Did you make that one, too?

JK: Yeah.

INT: Okay. Do you know what year this was made?

JK: No, I guess it was in the early '30s.

INT: In the 1930s?

JK: Jase was payin' two dollars a day for work and uh, he was payin' more than he needed to. People talked of how nice he was.

DA: I started to say, along about that time a dollar a day was goin' wages.

JK: Yeah. He paid two dollars. And that was equal to twenty-five or thirty dollars now. You could live good on two dollars.

INT: What about this little, it looks like it's going to be a pitcher without, it doesn't have a handle on it yet?

JK: What?

INT: Do you recognize that?

DA: That little pot.

INT: Little pot.

JK: This one?

DA: No.

INT: The little one over on the other side.

JK: No, I don't know what that is.

DA: Well, we sure would appreciate that.

JK: Did you ever know Philmore?

DA: Mm-hum. Yeah.

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

JK: The biggest liar. . .

DA: I know it.

JK: . . . that I ever heard, but he never told a lie that hurt anybody.

DA: On anybody else. It was always on himself. That's sayin' a lot, isn't it? (Laughter)

JK: I got the biggest kick, there was some Northern men down there and they were goin' huntin', bear huntin', and I don't know what, but Philmore told them about that this man up in Tennessee, he had him, he kept a gang of Plott hounds, I think that's the fastest bird dog. I hadn't heard of 'em until he told me, he said he kept 'em. And he went up there a couple times a year. He says, "I get the biggest thrill crawlin', crawlin' in a cave after a bear with a flashlight in one hand and a .45 automatic in the other." Said, "I get the biggest thrill out of that as anything." "I bet you do."

DA: (Laughter) I don't believe I would.

JK: That's the kind of tales he told. (Laughter)

DA: (Laughter) How 'bout the time that he told about that he, he was, him and a general was always buddy-buddies, and the general came in and flew him in here and he parachuted out and he landed out there on the, on the yard of his house.

JK: Yeah, but wasn't, somebody was dead, didn't it?

DA: Yes, that's what it was! He came in when Jase died!

JK: Yeah. He told me, he said. . .

DA: That's what it was. That's what he told us!

INT: He parachuted in?

DA: He was crazy!

JK: Yeah, he told me about it, "I just," he told me 'bout, says, "I just took my suitcase in one hand and my parachute and stepped out the door."

DA: (Laughter) Well, I know who went after him. Harwood went after him, up, he came by train, up at the Greensboro! (Laughter)

JK: But such as that.

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

DA: Well, he came in with a big tale, anyway.

JK: And, uh, he drank quite a bit, you know. 'Course, we all went bear huntin' a time or two with him down, uh, oh, Wilmington, up the coast, I forget, it's some up there. Well, this uh, boy lived up here, married Jase Cole's girl, he killed a bear back in the woods. So Philmore, he's drinkin' pretty heavy and he took charge, says, "Now you boys stand on the bumper and I'll drive the pick-up to [unintelligible], and they started to get goin'. He was givin' all the boys a bit of rope. "Mr. Kiser, you stand up on this stump here and holler every once in a while so we'll know how to get back." And they did. They went down there and after a while I saw 'em comin' back draggin' the bear. And on behind here comes two fellas leadin' Philmore (laughter).

DA: (Laughter) He couldn't even stand still.

JK: He couldn't hardly walk. It took two men (cough). . .

DA: Well.

JK: But, well, that's one thing you could say about Philmore. He never told anything that hurt anybody.

DA: That's right. Was him and Nell married when you was workin' down there?

JK: Mm-hum.

DA: Well, they. . .

JK: Philmore was tellin' a couple of ladies from up north, they were askin', "Were you, Mr. Graves, were you raised in this, a native of this?" "Oh, no," he says. "I was a southern representative for Standard Oil of New Jersey," I believe, and he was down through here and he just seen the sign, "Stop and see it made," and he became so fascinated with watchin' people turn that he asked Mr. Cole would he learn him to turn. And he went back to New Jersey and resigned a good job and come back here.

INT: (Laughter) He could tell a story, couldn't he?

JK: Yeah. And tell a good one. (Laughter)

DA: Oh me. Well.

JK: If you make you a mold like Harwood made for Jase, it'd be no trouble to make it.

DA: Well, I sure would love to make one that big. I would just, for my own satisfaction. I would never sell it. I'd just make it.

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

JK: Well, we did it. I made 'em when they had the mold up there. I was makin' saggers then. I learned how to make 'em down at Herman's and Jase had me to make 'em. You beat out your clay about that thick and the clay was that crushed stuff. And then cut it in strips, pick up a piece of it and put it on there and I just keep--it doesn't take long to do it, to build one. Then you slick it up and put slip on it.

DA: I don't see how you get that mold out of there, though.

JK: Well, that's. . .

DA: That's, that would be the. . .

JK: . . .Harwood made it for that purpose.

DA: That would be the trick of it, really, without breakin' your pot.

JK: [Unintelligible] it was pieces, cabinetwork, they were probably as wide as your three fingers.

DA: Like stays?

JK: Yeah, just like you had a'mold that thing and split it, like maybe there's one little piece, not much more than your finger, that you could get it out of, and that loosened up the rest of it.

DA: Uh-huh, yeah. Well, I'd sure love to try that. Would you come up and help me some day?

JK: If I'm out. I don't know about makin' a mold or not.

DA: (Laughter) Oh me!

JK: Get Harwood to make you a mold.

DA: Well, maybe we could get you and Harwood up there. Maybe we could get the thing together.

JK: I don't know whether that mold would be around Jase's or not.

DA: Sure would love to see it.

INT: You gonna ask him about your pot?

DA: We found this pot, here. Look at the tail on it. Does it ring a bell to you? Walter said that he thought that you had one like it that you had made.

INT: Did you make one that's stoneware?

Jack Kiser, 17 May 1983

JK: Huh?

INT: Did you have a pot like that that you made that's stoneware?

JK: Not like this.

DA: Could we see it?

JK: It's hangin' out there in the garage if somebody hasn't stolen it.

INT: Let's go.

(End tape)
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Creator : Francis, Michelle A.
Type : Oral Interview: Jack Kiser and Dorothy Auman
Studio : Dwight M. Holland
Location : Steed, North Carolina, United States
Date : May 17, 1983 CE

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