Francis, Michelle A., Oral Interview: Walter and Dorothy Auman, March 7, 1983 CE
Oral Interview
Walter and Dorothy Auman
Seagrove, NC
7 March 1983
DCA:
Dorothy Cole Auman
WA:
Walter Auman
INT:
Interviewer, Michelle A. Francis
(Begin Tape 1, Side 1)
INT:
Today is March 7, 1983. We're talking with Walter and Dorothy
Auman and today we are going to talk about earthenware. Dorothy, why don't
you just tell me a little bit about what is earthenware as opposed to
other kinds of clay.
DCA:
Well, earthenware is one of the categories of the pottery
that's been made around here and today I guess it's divided into many,
many more than three groups, but for simplification, and for our purpose
here talking, let's just divide it into the three major groups, which is
earthenware, stoneware, porcelain, and talk a little about each one and
you can see the difference then. Walter, why don't you tell her about the
forming of the clays which would show why these three major groups are
formed.
WA:
As clays were formed from the disintegration of felspathic
rocks, the chemicals made up the differences, and some of the clays were
found in pure form-, where others contain various amounts of organic
matters, minerals, and the different compounds. These pure clays are the
plastics that mature at the lowest temperatures. No, that would be the
ones that mature at the highest temperatures.
DCA:
The kaolins. And then, least plastic, group for turning.
WA:
Yes, these would be more in the porcelain family.
INT:
When you refer to plastic, you mean plastic as in pliable?
WA:
Pliable, sticks together real well.
DCA:
And when it's like in the kaolin stage, when we are turning and
it doesn't turn well, we call that short. That is due to the old timers
used to say that there was fibers in the clay. And there sure must be!
Because the long fibers are those that have more plastic than the short
fibers, tend to break easy and it takes a longer period of time for them
knitting back together, too, in the shop out here, you know.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 2
INT:
Mm-hum. So that's something you have to be aware of which way
the fibers are going when you are throwing, turning a pot?
DCA:
Well, not necessarily which way, they're just all throughout
it. But the fact that the type of clay has long fibers or short fibers in
it.
WA:
Yes, all clays have the fibers to, uh, make it stick together in
some form or other.
INT:
Was the kaolin mostly short fibers then?
WA:
Yes, it was. Kaolin never was a real plastic clay.
INT:
Has that ever been found in this area?
WA:
Yes.
INT:
Is that a clay that is available in this area?
WA:
Yes, the kaolin--not as much in this area as it was a little
west of here.
DCA:
We found seams of it through the pyrolusite sections, where we
would find a deposit of pyrolusite. Most of the time these pyrolusite
wrappers was divided by the seams of this, um, kaolin-type clay. And then
we also have the talc mines down here, which is a form of this same type
of clay.
INT:
So when you're out looking, you look on the surface for
like--what were the rocks you saying, pyrolusite rocks—if you're out
looking for kaolin, that's what you'd look for, is that kind?
DCA:
Mm-hum.
WA:
Well, we don't look for that as much so in our work here as
earthenware clay.
INT:
But, if somebody, a potter, was looking for--
DCA:
Yes, somebody looking for that would. Yes.
INT:
Yeah, okay.
WA:
Some of the clays have a medium amount of organic materials and
they can be found easily because of the plasticity of it. These are the
medium range temperatures, where you's more in the, what we call our
stoneware clays. But in the earthenware clays, it has more of the organic
material and they're fired at a litle
[little]
lower temperature.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 3
INT:
What are the different temperatures?
WA:
Well, there are different opinions as to what the different
clays are. Among some of the writers and books and things, they generally
agree that porcelain is fired at around 2450 degrees, and on up above--it
starts at around 2450. Your stonewares is fired at anywheres from 2100 to
2450, 24 something like that, most of your stoneware clays. And your
earthenwares, they are fired from about 1700 to 2100, which around here,
most of us use around 19 to 2000.
INT:
Is there a particular reason why you have settled in on that
range?
WA:
Well, it's because of our clays--they vitrify at that
temperature--that we are using now.
DCA:
Well, and the reason of that is because we have this seepage
problem. It's that most earthenwares have a seepage problem. You know, if
you make a bowl or a vase, the water will seep through. It's not a tight
body. It's a porous body. If you can fire that up to the point that it is
tight or almost tight, this is what you aiming at, this is the goal of all
your earthenware makers.
INT:
So the higher the temperature you can force the earthenware to
be fired at, then the tighter the body becomes and the more waterproof.
DCA:
That's right. But, however now, if you go over that
temperature, and you don't leave some porousness in the clay, then you
can't put it in the oven and cook in it because you don't have that
expansion there.
INT:
Okay, so there's really a fine line.
DCA:
It sure is, and you've always got the, like hot spots and. . .
WA:
Cold spots in the kiln. You have to be careful of what you put
in these places, that uh, if your earthenware isn't porous to a certain
extent, it's ...it's a bad pot to cook in.
DCA:
It's not usable for earthenware purposes then.
INT:
Earthenware, was that the clay that was used initially for
cooking, for utilitarian. . .
WA:
Yes, yes it was.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 4
INT:
. . .as opposed to stoneware?
WA:
Uh-huh, it was particularly through this area here, earthenware
was for cooking mostly.
DCA:
Well, seems that here, when we speak of stoneware, I think that
most of us, are visually of the traditional potters, anyway, think in
terms of salt glazed pottery. And this was very vitrous {vitreous]
which if you put it in the oven, it would crack right open. Because it was
like, you know porcelain does the same thing,. . .
WA:
It's so soft.
DCA:
. . .there is no porousness there for the clay to swell and
shrink on. But today, stoneware has another meaning.
INT:
Stoneware is used for cooking.
DCA:
Yes, but, they don't use native clays for doing this. They
have, if they use a native clay they will doctor it up with a lot of, well
I won't say chemicals, but other clays that's been. . .
WA:
Types of grogs and things like this.
DCA:
. . .brought in from other areas of the country. It's not our
native clays.
INT:
So your native stoneware is not suitable for cooking, the
composition of it.
DCA:
It never was, way back, you know, when we were talking about
like your--before things became so sophisticated and formalized.
WA:
The earthenware clays, they're your real red--has a lot of iron
in it. And most of those burn out what we call real orange-red,
particularly in the bisque. But, we find a lot of that in this area.
INT:
I was going to say, obviously, you can see that visually, can't
you?
WA:
Yes, most of the time you can see the, you can tell that it's
got the iron in it.
INT:
You just by walking along the field if you're looking for a
vein of clay--anywhere you can. . .
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 5
WA:
Yes, if you find a vein of clay you can tell if it's got the
iron in it.
INT:
What do you look for if the field is covered up? You know, with
brush and grass?
WA:
If you are looking for clay, you just look for a suitable spot
that's more likely to have it and you just dig down. For, not many of the
clays come to the top of the ground. There's usually anywheres from 12 to
2 to 3 feet of soil on top of it that you have to remove before you can
get to the clay.
INT:
In this area, what kind of terrain is suitable for
earthenware?
WA:
It's, sometimes it's uh. . .
INT:
Is it a low-lying area?
WA:
Yes, we find it in the low-lying areas, we call it a pond clay.
Particular for our earthenware, where it's settled for several
[several]
hundred years or a thousand years or so
that we think it takes to make this.
DCA:
But now you also find stoneware clay in these low areas, too,
which would be a high-firing clay, higher than earthenware. And when this
is, it would be called a certain way, what was that Walt. . .
WA:
uh. . .
DCA:
Bog.
WA:
Yeah, bog clay.
DCA:
Bog clay. That was what--it meant that it would fire out very
dark, brown, in the brown family, but almost sometimes to a black. It
seemed that this clay had much more iron in it than, say, hill clay for
the stoneware.
WA:
And most of your hill clay will, or what we call hill, where
it's not settled. You'll find it in a sort of blue or blue-gray color when
you dig it out of the ground, particular if it is a little moist. And it
usually fires out with very little iron in it.
INT:
Now this is. . .
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 6
DCA:
The stoneware.
INT:
We're still talking about stoneware.
DCA:
But your earthenware is usually dark yellow or yellow or
orange, uh, family.
INT:
Is there a hill, do you find earthenware clay in hill, on
hills, too
WA:
In some cases, but very seldom.
INT:
Seldom, okay.
WA:
Very seldom that we find it. Most of our digging of clay, and
we've been getting it in the last 35, 40 year, I guess out of the same
pit. And it's sort of a low-lying area where we're digging it.
INT:
What else does it normally have in it?
DCA:
Um, you know, something else that was interesting, when you get
to thinking about the colors of clay. Walter, do you remember that green
clay that those people brought in that they found. And we turned it and it
was green, it was just as--a pastel green color.
WA:
Yes.
DCA:
And we also found some that was a lavender.
INT:
Lavender?
DCA:
Um-hum, in a lavender, a definite lavender, not pink, now, but
a lavender, orchid-looking. And, how 'bout that piece of clay that you
brought in from the coast that was just charcoal black.
WA:
Yes, it was just as black, and it came out of, uh, the ocean at,
uh, Carolina Beach. We were down fishing, and, we,
uh. . . .
DCA:
His line got hooked on it. . .
WA:
My line got hooked on this, and the man told us what we had run
into. And so we waded in and got us a handful or two of it and brought it
back. And it was just as black as it could be.
DCA:
But, the orange. . .
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 7
WA:
No sand or anything in it!
INT:
Really?
DCA:
But, the black, the green, the orchid--all turned out, after it
was fired, just, you couldn't tell any difference than our regular
orangey-looking clay around here.
INT:
So it was earthenware.
WA:
Yes.
INT:
But, some kind of. . .
DCA:
. . .organic material undoubtedly colored it. But, I think
it's interesting to find that you do have, now these are unusual. . .
INT:
Exceptions.
DCA:
Mm-hum.
INT:
Generally in this area, it would be anywhere from like, your
yellows to oranges.
DCA:
Yes.
WA:
Most of the clays that you use for earthenware clays, that's
almost the same type, not quite as good a grade of clay as the brick
companies use for making the brick. And, of course, they have a lot of
problems, too, with color. They have to get their clays out and mix their
clays to get the color, where we use a glaze on there, to cover up the
clay to get our color.
DCA:
Well, the brick companies are awfully nice to us potters
around. If they find a good vein of clay, uh, they don't mind sharing in
the least.
INT:
Really?
DCA:
Um-hum. And they'll take the worst of it and give us the best
of it. You know, that's saying a lot.
INT:
It sure is! I didn't realize that. Then do you all have some
brick companies in this area?
DCA:
Well, we did. But they moved out, um. Maybe they gave the best
away! (Laughter)
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 8
WA:
We have brick companies in Greensboro, Sanford, Salisbury,
Cheraw, South Carolina, places like that.
INT:
How did you find your pit?
WA:
I didn't find it. Someone else found it and, Dot's father was
getting clay out of there from uh. . .
DCA:
Well the man that--we talking about the Smith clay over here?
WA:
Yes.
WA:
Okay, the man that owned the, uh, farm over there complained to
a potter who hunted with him, that he couldn't get grass to grow on that
piece of land, he didn't know what was wrong with it. And it happened to
be Jim Teague down here, who was an old potter. Jim went over and looked
at it and said, "I can tell you what's wrong with it." He says, "It's got
too much iron it." He says, "You may not can use it, but we can!" So, he
went over and got a load. And after that, then Daddy began getting over
there. And, I guess it's sufficed for the community around here for many
years.
WA:
Many years
INT:
It's that large, or it was that large?
WA:
There's a large deposit of clay there. And the other three major
names of a few of the others that was used was shale, terracotta, crawdad
clay. . .
INT:
Crawdad?
WA:
Gumbo, it was just. . .
DCA:
Well, this is what a lot of people call it.
WA:
Lot of people call it these names.
DCA:
Now around here we call it crawdad clay, 'cause this is where
you see these crawdads making holes all through it. It's not worthy of
our, work to make it into a good clay, but some people can use it and mix
it when they do.
INT:
They use it as a mix with, what, other kind of earthenware?
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 9
DCA:
Well, yes, or even, well I guess we use that type of clay in
order to sealing up the kiln, don't we?
WA:
Yes, that's the type that we use for closing the doors.
DCA:
And you take the terracotta--you get earthenware terracotta,
you get stoneware terracotta. Terracotta is where you've got a lot of grog
in the clay. You know, a lot of foreign matter that. . .
INT:
Sand, or whatever.
DCA:
Yeah, and it's a uh. . .
WA:
Well, there's clays that's got heavy aluminum, and uh. . .
DCA:
Bauxite.
WA:
Yeah, bitmite, and volcanic ash. The list just could go on for
uh. . .
INT:
I guess whatever is in the area you could find in the clay.
WA:
Yes, that's right.
DCA:
Whenever that clay disintegrated from that rock and got mixed
in with other rocks, you know. So that it really, the make up of, of .
WA:
It's just, in a lot of cases, it's just your own opinion, for we
have no way of running an analysis on the clay or anything. We just, we
test it out and if it works for us, why we use it, and then that's the way
the other potters do, too. They run the tests on it for their own use.
DCA:
And sometimes, you'll find the clay and even have brought it
into the shop, but you think that it will work, but you find all your pots
have warped in the kiln, or something, so you know you got to do more work
on your clay. And so you'll go out and find another clay that will uh,
strengthen that body, say, if you find a stronger clay.
INT:
You mix it?
DCA:
Mm-hum, and so you've got two. And I have known Daddy to have
even put three clays together.
WA:
Oh, yes.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 10
DCA:
But, that's normally--it's a couple of clays.
WA:
And, you have to do this a lot of the times, and uh, you'll find
a clay that will turn good and yet it won't take a glaze. That, or it
won't fire good in the kiln. So you have to, uh, come to a happy medium
with all three of them--the ones that will accept the glaze and turn good
and then fire good, too. That will fire at the temperatures that you like
to make it at.
INT:
Your Dad, did he use earthenware exclusively, your father?
DCA:
Yes, um, after the transitional period came in, in say, the
'20s. . .
INT:
After they quit making. . .
DCA:
The salt glaze, um-hum, yeah. . .
INT:
. . .the saltware, the salt glaze. . .
DCA:
Yeah, now while he was at home with his daddy, it was salt
glaze.
INT:
That was Ruffin, right?
DCA Yes, uh-hum.
INT:
Okay, so Ruffin Cole was--used salt glaze. . .
DCA:
Right.
INT:
And to do that you used the earthenware?
DCA:
No, you would of used the stoneware clay.
INT:
I mean use the stoneware, excuse me, use the stoneware.
DCA:
Mm-hum, the stoneware.
INT:
And then, after they quit making those large crocks and the
urns and things, and started going more towards art pottery and vases, and
then your father started using the earthenware.
DCA:
That's right, mm-hum.
INT:
And you have used earthenware exclusively.
DCA:
Yes.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 11
INT:
Do you prefer?
DCA:
Uh, yeah, I think. . .
INT:
Is it easier to work with?
DCA:
Yeah, it's . . . to me it's more fun to do.
WA:
Uh, the earthenware--we enjoy it because it's, uh, it's--you can
do so much more with it that you can in the—as far as the stoneware.
Stoneware was real vitrous
[vitreous]
and that
was what the people used to make the churns and the old crocks.
DCA:
Storage jars.
WA:
Storage jars and that type of ware. And uh, earthenware, it's
more of a utilitarian thing. You can make water pitchers and use 'em, and
cooking vessels and--not so much storage things, and then you can make
candle holders and that type of stuff, too. It's ornamental.
INT:
You had a greater variety; you have a greater variety of forms
that you can make.
WA:
Much greater variety.
INT:
Are all the clays that you find usable? All the deposits?
DCA:
Well, like we were talking there, if one isn't exactly like we
like it, we usually find something to mix in with it and, um, even like
what we call the crawdad clay, which is the, the--on a scale of one to
ten, it'd be maybe, zero to use in pottery! But we still find a use for
it, by daubing the kiln door. So, it's perfect for that. It has what we
call a lot of dirt in it. It has a lot of foreign matter, topsoil has got
into it.
INT:
In this area, tell me, like--okay, we'll start with the crawdad
clay. That's the lowest form of earthenware clay that you find locally.
Would you say?
WA:
Yes, I think that would be the lowest.
INT:
What would be the next?
DCA:
Well, to go back to our three major categories, would be your
earthenware.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 12
INT:
Well, right. I'm not, you know, the different kinds of
earthenware, the different quality.
DCA:
Yet in all, I'm not that, uh, technical on the clays. Are you,
Walt?
WA:
No, not on the clays. That's uh. . .
DCA:
Everybody finds what they can use best. Let's take, um, is
this, um. . .
INT:
Tell me about your Dad's. The different kinds he had to use.
You said at one time he was mixing three clays to get. . .
DCA:
Well, he was just, you see, as the earth's formed, each of
these veins of clay has got a different chemical make up in it.
INT:
Right.
DCA:
Okay, he couldn't test it and tell you that it had a lot of,
say, calcium in one clay and, and aluminum in another clay. You know. All
he could do was, it was trial and error. So he would, if he got a clay
that say, well, let's say one that shrunk too much in the turning. If you
turn a piece, say, that's say, fifteen inches high and you ended up with a
piece that's ten inches high, man! You've got too much shrinkage there.
And I've seen even. that much shrinkage done. So you go and find a clay
that hasn't got nearly that much shrinkage to it and add to this clay.
Because the chances are this clay that has shrunk so has got a lot of good
qualities for the turner, for the person that's shaping it. Man, usually
you can stretch that clay to, mm, you. Can just keep on stretching it.
Now we got some down here at Rankin Beans not long ago like that. You could
stretch that clay till there was just no end to it. It would amaze you
what you would get out of, say a three-pound ball of clay that you was
used to getting, you know, a piece. Man, you could go a third higher on
that. But then, when you fired it, it'd come down, way down. You know, so
you don't want too much of that. So you simply add that with another clay
to make good qualities of whatever you are after. You get turning, or it's
like Walter said, the firing qualities there, the warping and, he always
has problems with fire cracking, or it could cool it too quickly, this
sort of thing. So, uh, you just mix one clay to another. And, you never
know, you just have to test your clays.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 13
INT:
Well, what about the clay you've been using now, is it, for
about thirty years out of that pit? Have you been adding different clay to
it? Or is it pretty. . .
WA:
It's, it works pretty well by itself.
INT:
By itself? You've not had to do much to it?
WA:
No.
DCA:
Well, now, we do add some low burning, softer. . .
WA:
We have added, yes. . .
DCA:
. . .what we call a softer clay, we added to it. We find that
it helps about the seepage a lot.
INT:
Mm-hum. Adding the softer--
DCA:
A fine clay, you know. Now this temperature, this, uh
temperature of the maturity point on this Smith clay is much higher than
what we like, so we add a clay that—whose maturity point is very low, it's
very low. So we add it to it and the blend of it gets it just right. It
depends on how much we want to add to it.
INT:
What do you mean by maturity point?
DCA:
This is the point that you're after. This is the goal that the
potter is after when he is firing a kiln. Uh, you don't want it to be
vitrous
[vitreous]
, but you don't want it to be
so porous until it seeps water, either.
INT:
Okay, it's that. . .
DCA:
Fine line. . .
INT:
That fine line we talked about earlier. Okay, okay. Tell me a
little bit about the firing process, Walter, of earthenware that you all
have been using.
WA:
Well, we're using the oil kilns now to, uh, and we have since
World War II, and electricity to run our blowers and to put air and things
in the kiln. But, uh, it has, it works much easier in the earthenware
where you, you don't have to stay as, control your heat as close as you do
on stoneware, where it will, it will stand the shock of a fast heat, or,
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 14
and fast cooling, too. And we've, uh, we have been using this for ourselves
since we've started, and Dot's father, too, Mr. Cole, when he was using
changed over from the wood to the oil.
DCA:
By the way, he was the first one to build this type of a kiln.
INT:
Your father was the first one to build a gas, I mean, an
oil-burning kiln?
DCA:
Uh-huh, oil-burning kiln. And these are called hog backs.
INT:
Hog backs.
DCA:
Uh, huh, instead of a ground hog. Uh, these are called hog
backs. Maybe it's probably a little higher.
INT:
They are higher, you can just walk into them.
WA:
And all of our kilns now are downdrafts that we're using, too.
The heat goes in at the bottom and it has to go up to the top and back
down through the pots and come out at the bottom, through, uh, where the
outlet is for the chimleys and--
DCA:
Now that's in comparison to the overdraft in a ground hog kiln,
which you build a fire in the front of the kiln and the fire just simply
went over and through the pots and out the chimney.
INT:
Chimney. Mm-hum. I notice that you, do you do a separate bisque
firing, Walter? .
WA:
Yes, we fire at bisque and then we can bring it out and it's
much simpler to do that. You don't have to be so careful with the glaze on
that. And then we bring it out of the kiln and we dip it into the glaze
and put it back in the kiln and when it comes out, then the next time,
hopefully, it's a finished product, or. . .
INT:
But I've also seen the kiln and during the glaze firing you
will also fire some bisque or, the greenware.
WA:
Yes, we, in the cases we've put our. . .
DCA:
That's when you get in a hurry.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 15
WA:
. . .we put our greenware on the bottom of the kiln, and uh,
it's a little bit cooler on the bottom, and you can heat it up fast, and
when you're firing a glaze kiln, and, uh, but in most cases when we do
that, we try to fire it up--in the glaze--to maturity, so that it will
still be at vitrous
[vitreous]
or be too early
for it. We won't have so much seepage in it.
DCA:
Going back to the clay, there, I think a interesting point,
and, uh, finding, you was mentioning finding the clay, well. . .
INT:
How you locate it.
DCA:
Well, after you have located a likely spot, and you dig it up,
you know one of the first things a potter will do is bite it.
INT:
Is what?
DCA:
Bite it.
INT:
Bite it?
DCA:
Yup, he'll just a'haul off and bite it. Um, he'll, well I think
one thing, clay that we use in the potter's shop, has got a definite taste
to it. And the potter knows that. It's got a definite odor. Have you
noticed in going into the shops, that fresh odor.
INT:
Mm-hum!
DCA:
Well, that's your clay. That gives it that odor in that shop.
And we're so used to it until sometimes I don't even notice it, but
somebody else will come in the shop and will say, "What's that I smell?",
you know. And I say, "Well, you know, it's just the clay." It's that fresh
ground, that-- like when you're tunnelling
[tunneling]
back and making a cave into the side of a
hill, or something. It's that fresh earth smell on it. But then, after he
tastes it, and of course, tasting it, too, he'll chew it.
WA:
When you sink your teeth in, in a piece of clay, you can tell
whether it has grit in it.
DCA:
Yeah.
INT:
Yeah, so you know. . .
WA:
So you can tell whether it's a pure clay or not.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 16
DCA:
Yeah, whether it's gritty or not. Uh, if it's gritty, then the
chances are he figures that he's got too close to the topsoil. And he'll
go down maybe a foot further and try it again. But, then after, if it
passes this test, now, he'll take a little piece and crumble it up in the
palm of his hand. Oh, no bigger than two or three beans, you know, just
crumble it up in little pieces. Just spit on it, wet it up, work that
thing up in the palm of his hand, and roll it out like a little worm. And
he'll take that worm then and twist it around his little finger, and if
that doesn't crackle or break, he figures he has a pretty good clay there.
So then the next step would be to take enough in, uh, say a bucket full or
something, into the shop, and test it for shrinkage and warping and
firing, this sort of thing, before he goes back and gets a whole load of
it. Even that's not fool-proof.
WA:
And there's another way you can do, is get you a chunk of it up
and take out your pocket knife and just sort of shave it off a little bit,
just like you would a cake of soap. And if it cuts real smooth, it's--you
can be sure that you've got a lot of clay there, but--and if- there's any
sand or any foreign matter in it, you can tell when your knife blade goes
through it.
INT:
You can see it, too, I guess.
DCA:
You have a lot of shale in it sometimes around here. We get a
lot of shale in the clay. And, boy that's something that you have to steer
clear of! If you have shale in the clay, it's, when it goes through, when
you turn a piece and it's got that shale, even if it's minute pieces, when
it goes through the kiln, comes out and is cooled, it will pop out, and
it--
WA:
Little chunks of the glaze will peel off.
DCA:
It just looks like you've taken an ice pick and gone through
it.
WA:
But, now they can use a lot of shale in brick making.
INT:
Mm-hum, because they don't glaze it.
WA:
Yes, they use a lot of it.
DCA:
We can use it if it's pulverized. It's, um, it's a very strong
clay. It's, um, and it helps on the warpage. It's, um. . .
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 17
INT:
So some shale is good to have, I mean, it's good to have some
shale in it--
DCA:
Yeah, if you'll prepare it right. Uh, now we were getting so
much of this, uh, shale, at one time, that, this is the reason that, that
they began pugging on--
WA:
Pulverizing it.
DCA:
Pulverizing it in, what kind of mill is it? A hammer mill.
WA:
Yes, a type of hammer mill.
DCA:
And this is what brought that on, was this shalish clay. It was
a good clay to use, but, uh, you couldn't use it unless those pieces was
just beat up to just powder. Now before that, they would bring the clay
into the shop and, usually they had an area that was, cleaned off and
usually they'd put boards down on the ground so you wouldn't get the
topsoil mixed in with the clay as you was working with it. And they'd put
up a few stakes around. I can remember seeing it--and then just dump your
clay off on it. And it was just completely out in the weather and this was
the way they wanted it. And they would haul it, like in the fall, so that
it, the rains, it would get it good and wet. And then the winter freezes
would freeze it and bust these clogs of clay just all to pieces. That was
called mellowing it.
INT:
Called?
DCA:
Mellowing it.
WA:
Yeah, aging it.
INT:
Yeah, same thing.
DCA:
So then, Daddy would take the shovel, the tip end of the
shovel, and go--chop, chop, chop, chop, chop--all through this. Still
breaking it up further. And if it was too wet, he would, turn it over and
let the sun shine on it. And of course, where the sun shined, it got dried
out.
INT:
Yeah.
DCA:
So, he'd have to turn that over to get it wet again. But then,
when he got it just right, he'd take wet tote sacks and cover that up, and
he'd let that stay there for two or three days, anyway, wouldn't he?
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 18
WA:
Yes.
DCA:
And, uh, again, it went through this mellowing stage where it
was, was breaking down to clumps. And at that point of the time, he was
putting it in this, well, my Daddy never used a mule, like the old-timers,
say, my Granddaddy used a mule to go around. . .
INT:
Clay mill.
DCA:
Uh-hum, in a vertical-type of movement. But, now, uh, Uncle
Clarence was Daddy's youngest brother. And he was forever inventing
something. He was one of these tinkerers, you know. And, he built one that
lay down horizontal, put a big fly wheel on the side of it and hooked it
up to his T Model. And that must have been like in the ...'20s, wouldn't
have been, Bubba?
WA:
Yes.
DCA:
That would have been right about. in the '20s that this
happened.
INT:
That must have been very innovative for the time.
DCA:
Boy, I tell you it saved a lot of work, and you didn't have to
bother with that. . .
INT:
. . .that mule!
DCA:
. . .that mule! Yeah! And it was so much faster, this, this
old T Model chugged along at a better rate than the old mule did, you
know. And, the T Model was stationary, they ran a belt from the wheel of
the i Model over to this fly wheel.
INT:
And that turned it. Turned the pug mill.
DCA:
Yeah, and they would put this, um, mellowed clay into it. Now
this is what my Daddy worked on. And he used the T Model for years and
years and years--up until World War II!
WA:
Yes, then he bought an old truck.
DCA:
"Old Betsy."
INT:
He used a truck?
WA:
He used a truck. . .
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 19
DCA:
Yeah, Old Betsy, that was the name of the T Model, Old Betsy.
Uh, after that, what did Daddy use? After the T Model. A tractor? Did he
ever use a tractor?
WA:
Not for that mill. We'd use the tractor in later years, but we
used an old, uh, truck, you know. And then he bought this motor that, uh,
he just set it out there, it was an old Chevrolet, a '28 Chevrolet motor.
DCA:
That's right. And uh, without the frame of the truck.
WA:
Yeah, it was just the motor sitting there.
DCA:
That's what it was. Yeah, I remember seeing that.
WA:
And then, uh, he hooked up electricity to it, in, uh, I guess in
the late '40s.
DCA:
That's when he moved it down the hill there, and made that big,
great, big, huge, uh, clay [mill].
WA:
Yeah, and then he bought a tractor, and sometime in the middle
'50s he started using a tractor, and used a tractor as long as we kept the
shop opened up.
INT:
The pug mill, further blends the clay. Pulverizes it?
DCA:
Yeah, right. It has like, uh, alternating knives, that is
beveled in such a way, that when you put it in over on one end of it,
these knives keep cutting through it. And as they cut it, it pushes it
about a half a inch, every time the knife goes through it, it'll push it
down about a half a inch, that knife will. Okay, our next knife will push
it down a half a inch, so eventually, as it comes on out. 'See, you've got
an area there about like this, and it keeps compressing it in there, too.
DCA:
. . .uh, four feet there, that, by the time it comes out down
here, all these knives has chopped it up fine and there's nothing in it.
It's very fine. And if it's not, if you've got some bumpy clay that it's
not, you simply take it back and run it through a second time.
INT:
Run it through again. And then, what did your dad do with it?
(End Tape 1, Side 1)
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 20
INT:
After the clay had been put through the pug mill, and it came
out all very fine and dry, right? Is it dry?
WA:
No, it's moist, then.
INT:
Is it moist?
WA:
Yes, it's moist when it comes out through the pug mill. That's,
you've already added your water to it. And when it comes out the end, then
you usually use a wire to test it, to see if it's, cut through it, to see
if it's, uh, has any lumps or. . .
INT:
Um-hum, foreign--if there's any foreign material.
WA:
Yes, if there's anything. If it's not lumpy or anything, then
you just carry it in there and usually pack it in a box in the turner's
room. And, uh, stack it up in there and they'll, and if the turner's not
really pushed with his clay, he'll let it lay there for several days
before he uses it. And, uh, he keeps it in a moist box.
DCA:
Uncle Frank used to say that's the knitting period. And if you
don't let it knit together again. Remember, we talked about the fibers.
Now, I don't know how these older potters knew, 'cause they didn't read or
study, technically, the thing. But they seemed to know that this clay knit
together and it was far more pliable, far more workable, uh, after it lay
there a period of time.
WA:
Well, they found out by letting it do that, that it was, that it
worked better. So they just, they didn't know what caused it, but, they
knew it worked better if they'd let it lay.
INT:
It held together better.
DCA:
It's just like cheese. There must be a bacteria in there that
works.
INT:
There is a bacteria in it.
DCA:
Oh, really!
INT:
Yeah, there is. I guess it's because of the moisture in there.
. .
WA:
Oh, yes.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 21
INT:
. . .you know, because of the moisture, the bacteria grows.
And I don't know if that has anything to do with the pliability and
elasticity of it or not. . .
DCA:
Must be!
INT:
. . .but, there's definitely bacteria.
DCA:
We always thought there's little bitty men walked in there at
night, you know, and worked it up good for us, you know. (Laughter)
(Tape stops then starts)
INT:
Dorothy, we were talking about the different, the temperatures
that you fire the earthenware. And you were telling me that you fire both
the bisque and glaze firing very high. The bisque firing, also.
DCA:
Yes, uh, one of the reasons is we want the shrinkage to get
completely out of the picture of it before we waste some glazing on a
piece. If it shrinks too much, you know, we don't to bother with it. Uh,
in our earthenware, it seems like that we have more shrinkage in the
greenware stage--don't you think this, Walt?
WA:
Yes, we have much more in the greenware than we do on the. . .
INT:
Would you say, like, 20%?
DCA:
Oh, 15.
INT:
15%?
DCA:
Yeah.
WA:
Yes, not much over that. It would probably be a little bit less
than that.
DCA:
But when you add some fire shrinkage, when it goes through the
kiln, it shrinks again, and then it might run up to about 20%, you see.
The two of them together. But, uh, if you overfire a piece, that piece is
going to shrink enormously. And sometimes it just shrinks down so small
until you can't even use it, or you don't want to use it. I'm thinking in
terms of like sugar and creamers. If you have fired the sugar bowls at a
reasonable temperature, and then somehow or another the cream pitchers has
got overfired, then you've got a non-matching set here. And the same
thing
Auman Interview, 7 March 1933, page 22
applies to like lids. If you run your lids way high, uh, your lids are
going to shrink down to where they're going to fall down through your
pot.
INT:
Do you fire, bisque fire those separately? You do not fire the
lids and the container together?
WA:
No, we take 'em off. We take them off of the pot to fire the
lids.
DCA:
But, uh, like Walter said, we fire up pretty high off the
earthenware. Uh, and of course, like I explained, the reason of it is to
hit that line where your customers don't come back in and say, "Oh, the
tea ran all over my pitcher on the wrong end!" (Laughter) And, of course,
then, you take a pie dish, now, uh, to stick in the oven, it's got to have
a little porousness in there for it to play on. For our native clay to do
this.
INT:
Are there different--are there shapes that are easier to do in
earthenware than stoneware?
DCA:
Easier?
INT:
Mm-hum.
DCA:
Well, being on the turning end, Walter, I believe I would say
earthenware is far superior to the turning, uh, and so anything that would
be, like a long neck or a tall, slender vase or something, I believe,
yeah, I think earthenware exceeds by far your qualities, because it's more
plastic in the turning than your stoneware in your turning.
WA:
You have more of a variety of shapes in your earthenware. You
have a range from any of your cooking pie dishes, casseroles, water
pitchers, even down to candle holders. Things like that.
INT:
They seem to be easier to do in earthenware because?
WA:
Yes, I think it's easier, as far as working with it. And, of
course, she said that it would work much better to the turning.
DCA:
Well, there is a warmness, a mellowness, uh, a country
look--and that's what I'm trying to say--a softer look about earthenware
that you just don't get with stoneware.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 23
WA:
You have more of a variety of colors in earthenware than you do
in stoneware, much brighter colors.
DCA:
And even though you just dip it in the clear glaze—that warm,
beautiful orange glaze. I've never seen anybody that it didn't just--the
old saying is just "turn 'em on." You know, that--just to see that warm
earthy color. There's just something about the color of the earth that
people like, and I do. It's just my, my first love, really.
WA:
Lot of people call it the earth tones now.
INT:
Does clay, do glazes adhere to the earthenware differently than
stoneware?
WA:
Yes, very much. You have much brighter colors in your
earthenware. When you get into the higher temperatures, it seems to burn
the colors out.
INT:
Dull them?
WA:
Yes.
DCA:
Well, did you mean adhere physically to the body of the
earthenware?
INT:
That, too. I was asking really both things.
DCA:
What do you think? Uh, since we don't do stoneware, I, I'm just
not that familiar with stoneware. We have absolutely no trouble in
earthenware.
WA:
I would think in your stoneware you that wouldn't have as--uh,
you would have--it would stick to the pot pretty, much. But in our
earthenware, we have very little problems with it.
INT:
I guess what I'm thinking about is that earthenware is more
porous. Just the nature of it is more porous. And I was just wondering if
it would take to glazing better?
DCA:
Oh, surely it does!
WA:
I'm sure it does. I'm sure it takes the glaze better. Because
you have a more porous body, and that's what you've got to have to, uh,
when you dip the pot in your glaze to, uh, for enough glaze to stick to
it.
DCA:
But, now as far back as I can remember, uh, another purpose of
us firing that bisque up real high, was so—I
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 24
know, Daddy'd always say, "It's underfired, it's got too much glaze on it."
And he was always careful about not putting too much of your glaze on it,
uh, too thick a coat. And maybe this stems from the fact that always, your
potters was always conscious over the fact that the, uh, lead wasn't good
to eat, you know. But then after they quit using the lead glazes and
started on the carbonate, the white carbonate--it was refined. Your red
glazes aren't refined, they're just a pure, unadulterated glazes.
INT:
Yeah. When did they start using the carbonated?
DCA:
This must to have been in the late '30s. This was, um, part of
the, here, . . .
INT:
In Seagrove.
DCA:
Yeah, but, before that, late '30s, no, I would say more like
'32 and '33. This was about the time that the New Hill shop was being put
in. And at that time they were using that carbonated lead. So, it wasn't
that the potters here found it, it was the fact that in Ohio, during this
period of this art period, the transition period, they had lots of, uh,
ceramic engineers and chemical engineers who did nothing but work for
these ceramic companies. And they pooled their resources, these ceramic
people who was putting out the materials, pooled their resources and had
laboratories all around them up in the Ohio Valley. Eve got the benefit of
this, of their research. And we should always forever remember and be
grateful for this.
INT:
And they, along with other different sorts of glazes, they came
up with the carbonated lead.
DCA:
Right. Which, not only was less dangerous, but also gave more
pastel colors, which was the in thing at that, during the '30s and the
'40s. Pastels. Pinks, powder blues, all these, lavenders, you know. This
was the in thing, man. You can almost look at a pot today and tell what
year it was made in.
INT:
Just by the glaze! Gee. Have you, when you started using
earthenware--your Dad, and then later, of course, yourself--have you
dropped some of the shapes and forms and added others, or are you still
using the same, making the same pots?
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 25
DCA:
Well, us, here, we, I think we have added and dropped a lot and
added a lot or gone back to the earlier shapes. Now, uh, you know, we have
been interested in the earlier pots, prior to the transitional period.
And, in studying back on this, we found that the earthenware was made
predominantly, almost exclusively, up until about the first quarter of the
19th century. Our first salt glaze kiln, that we have been able to nail
down, started in 1819.
INT:
1819, in this area?
DCA:
Well, that was down at Fayetteville, which was--it came here
immediately after--which I would certainly say, certainly before 1925. I'd
say within the next two or three years.
INT:
1925 or 1825?
DCA:
1825, excuse me! (Laughter) So, the next kiln that I know of
would have been Rafe Cole's kiln. And it was definitely a salt glaze kiln.
And, I know that he was making there in 1825. So, you can see that it came
in fast, if it wasn't already here. Now, we may know an earlier kiln than
1819, but so far that's our first date that we can nail down. Mm-hum.
Prior to this, everything was made earthenware. (
INT:
Salt glaze)
Storage jars, churns--everything! Uh, but after this salt glaze process
became so popular through this area, then of course your housewives, your
people preferred a stoneware salt glaze jug to put syrup in that didn't
get sticky on the outside. And storage jars for where they would brine the
meat down in. The salt didn't come on the outside. You know, it was just
cleaner living. And it was just more preferable. However, now, don't get
so carried away on the salt glaze period that you forget that earthenware
was still being made all during this time, because you will never—they
just never did find anything that took the place of the earthenware in the
kitchen.
INT:
Those were your dirt dishes.
DCA:
Yes, mm-hum. Your cooking pots, your bowls, your plates in the
table, all of this sort of thing. Uh, there was an immense market for
this. So, I'm sure there was still earthen--nothing but earthenware
potters along. But the potters' work that survived, of course, was the
stoneware. It's stronger. More of that survived, and so we tend to look at
it, we have a greater amass or collection of the salt pieces than we do
the earthenware pieces simply because the earthenware pieces got broken.
They were thrown out of the kitchen, through usage, much more than the
storage jars were.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 26
INT:
They chip easier, don't they?
DCA:
Right. Well, there was a period that I think earthenware
subsided more than any other period that I can find, and as far back as I
can go in history. And that was during the time, what we call the whiskey
jug era. Which would have been, what, from about 1885 till 1915. And it
looked like, now there was still some made, we were finding some pieces,
but the. . .
INT:
Some earthenware pieces?
DCA:
Mm-hum, but the majority of that had turned to jugs.
INT:
For whiskey?
DCA:
Mm-hum. Because. . .
INT:
Moonshine jugs.
DCA:
Mm-hum. That's right. And this came about really from the, what
we call the farm depression. Um, that, um, really, the roots of that went
back to the Civil War. And, then as things began to coming out, uh, the
government formed this, uh, allegiance, Farmers' Allegiance Program, which
later turned into, um, what's it called today, Future Farmers. . .
WA:
Farm Bureau.
DCA:
. . .Farm Bureau, whatever. It was based on that. And, they
sent a man around in, not just the Seagrove community, but all over,
helping farmers. They'd meet with them, and try to educate them, to tied
over, because, the more knowledgeable people in agriculture knew that it
was a time and it would just take its time to run out. It's hard luck gone
to agriculture. So, this man would go around to the various communities
and would look and see what other cash incomes could be, the farmers could
do. And, of course, turpentine products were all over the Piedmont, you
know, and it was here. . .
INT:
I know. A lot of lumbering operations started at that
time--turn of the century.
DCA:
That's right. And, of course, the, uh, cross tie industry,
which was making millions of miles of track for the trains which was
coming in, and that's an interesting little note about Seagrove, now. It
was known at one time as the Cross Tie Capitol of the World.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 27
INT:
Was it?
DCA:
Um-hum. There seems to grow a hardwood here. Is it oak,
Walter?
WA:
Oak. Now they're growing hickory and oak is. . .
DCA:
It's a type of a oak. But it was very plentiful here and it
lasted longer than any other kind of wood, or even oak that was grown in
other places. So, of course, if they got, say, five more years usage out
of those cross ties, the train companies, you know, wanted those extra
years. So they would always request Seagrove cross ties. They even shipped
cross ties to Australia.
INT:
Really!
DCA:
Oh, yes! It was. . .
INT:
It was a big business, then.
DCA:
Very big. This was. And gave a medium of cash into the family
to buy the sugar and the shoes and that sort of thing with. But, then,
they looked towards other things. And one of them was making whiskey,
which was a legal operation at that time. It was legal as long as the man
who made it—the whiskey--and sold it, measured it and so forth, and sold
it in a legal way and gave the government their. tax money on it. And this
was, uh, almost like an honor system. However, they would come by every
once in a while and check on it. They would also check the proof. Walter,
don't we have one of those proof meters?
WA:
We did have. We don't have it anymore.
DCA:
Well, where they would check the proof on this whiskey. But,
then of course you had your League of Churches coming in by about 18 and
90. They were beginning to voice opposition. By later, say 1898, it was
beginning to be very strong opposed from the church stand and from the
social standpoint. Anybody who made whiskey wasn't sociably accepted
around here. So, uh, then the Probation (sic) Acts began, and, by, say,
19--what was it--lasted till 1915, 1913, whatever. It pretty well done
away with it. However, now, during this period, when times were so hard
for the farmers, times were getting better. And, so, uh, they began
selling their corn
and. . .
INT:
They could sell their crops again.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 28
DCA:
That's right. But, now, here's another point. A lot of these
farmers who were farmers by trade, who never made a pot in their life,
started building kilns in the back yard and they would find what we call
journeyman potters to come over and do the turning. And maybe the farmer
and the potter, or maybe they'd hire somebody else to come in and do the
firing of it, and they made jugs. And a lot of these farmers did not make
whiskey. These were the ones who made the jugs.
INT:
Okay, so there were some that were making the whiskey and
selling it, and then there were some that started making jugs?
DCA:
Right, some of the farmers, now.
INT:
Were they also selling the jugs to larger distilleries? Were
there any larger distilleries in the state? Or was it just mainly local?
DCA:
Most of these jugs at that period of time, went to like, the
grocery store. Because the man who made the whiskey, sold that whiskey to
the grocery man or to the store, to the retailer, in kegs or barrels. All
right. When somebody came to the store and wanted a half a gallon of
whiskey, they needed a half a gallon jug there for him to put it in. So,
the price was usually, uh, whiskey, stopper and jug all combined when they
sold it. I have a price list on this that's interesting. But, as--now
North Carolina, uh, Legislature passed their probation laws. . .
INT:
Prohibition.
DCA:
Prohibition laws, uh, earlier than, say, South Carolina did,
and Virginia did. Okay. When the market was closed here, these potters
simply put them on a wagon and just drove a little further. It's not that
much further down to, well, I've heard Daddy and Uncle Arthur and them
tell about going down into the Charleston area. And then, let me tell you
a good one. What's the name of that little island out from Charleston,
there. Off the coast of South Carolina.
WA:
I can't remember right now.
DCA:
Okay, at that time that island was not part of the United
States. So they could not, the laws that was enforced here. So these
bigger, more aggressive or more ambitious
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 29
whiskey makers, who had the big stills running, simply moved over there and
they said there were literally thousands of them over there. Okay, uh, it
would come back in to the mainland. . .
INT:
They would need. . .
DCA : . . .They would need jugs. So, man, our potters supplied them with
it. But, then of course, I think that was when, 1915, 1918. It was along
about the time the war came. And all of that was cut out. And after that,
these islands became part of the United States. Or at least, they came
under the jurisdiction of their laws, too. But I thought that was so
interesting! (Laughter) They just, uh. . .
INT:
They just took advantage of territory, didn't they?
DCA:
Yeah. Walter, who was the man down here in the post office,
Mr., uh, Ollie, Parks, wasn't it?
WA:
Yeah. In the depot. . .
DCA:
Tell her about the, the, jug's a'coming.
WA:
He was telling that when he was a agent there, here at Seagrove,
the depot was, was quite small compared to the buildings today, but, he
was telling one time, this was right after he retired, that he could
remember seeing the whole floor of the depot sitting in there, sitting
full of jugs where people had ordered whiskey. . .
DCA:
. . .from Virginia! From Roanoke. . .
WA : . . .and it was sitting on the, in there, and of course, the people
would come in asking for their shipment, and maybe it would be a half a
gallon or even a gallon, jug, sitting in there. And he have to go through
and hunt out this name that was tagged onto this jug that was sitting in
there. And he said the floor would--he had seen it almost full at certain
times of the year when they would, people would send away for their order
of whiskey to be shipped in.
INT:
It sounds like you all were the Jug Capitol. . .
DCA:
Just about it for the whiskey jugs. Yes.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 30
INT:
. . .for the whiskey jugs.
DCA:
Now, there was other areas in the country that was called Jug
Town. This whole area at that time was known as Jug Town, because of the
multitude of jugs that was, that had been produced. But, there was Catawba
County, uh, who produced a lot of jugs during this same time. And one up
in, um, Buncombe County also. It was just one or two families up there. It
wasn't a big operation like it was in say, Catawba County and here.
INT:
Did your grandfather, Ruffin, he was making jugs, was he doing
other things, also. Or was practically everything. . .
DCA:
Yes, and you'll always find a potter, back then, who this was
parttime work for him. You always had cows to sell, hogs to sell, you had
farm work to be done. . .
INT:
Well, then was your grandfather a farmer also?
DCA:
Yes.
INT:
Okay, he wasn't exclusively a potter.
DCA:
That's right. And you were, hardly any. . .
WA:
. . .farmer, saw mill. . .
DCA:
Yes, you just, anything that you could make a dollar with, you,
you went into it. At one period of time, Granddaddy even got into the gold
mining business.
INT:
Was he doing, was he in that too?
DCA:
Oh yes! Um-hum, yeah. So, anything that had dollar connected to
it, you may be sure that anyone that was aggressive, and a potter had to
be, had to be ambitious and push, you know, to do this. So, you find 'em
fiddling around in a whole lot of things.
INT:
Did, I guess, then, when prohibition came into effect, and it
was, moonshining became illegal, and they weren't making as many pots,
what did they find to make to take up that slack?
DCA:
They didn't find anything!
INT:
So, was this. . .
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 31
DCA:
This is when a lot of the farmer potters went back to farming.
Now this is the period of time that you read in, uh, like the Jug Town
book that Juliana Busbee says, "All the potters were going back or quit
making, and they came in and revised." The Busbees contributed a great
contribution, and I don't want to down them by any means. Because they did
a great contribution, but it was not in saving the potters. The potters
kept on working. The potters were always here. They were here before the
family potters, they were here before the farmer potters came in, they
stayed right on with their job, with this. This was their thing. It was
just like a carpenter carpends, a stone mason puts stones together. A
potter makes pots. And these were potters. uh,. . .
INT:
They were just having to change their immediate occupation to
suit the economic times, then.
DCA:
Right. And, as, by then the farmers could sell their corn and
they'd much rather farm, because they were farmers. And in most cases, in
quite, gee, I would hate to say what percentage, but a large percentage in
the case, this farmer potter never turned his ware, he depended on this
journeyman potter to come around. And in many cases, he never even fired
the pots. It was, he had, probably, he put up the kiln and sold the ware.
This was his part of it. And, maybe helped dig the clay, this sort of
thing. But for the making of the pot, it was still your old potter who was
coming around. Because they would pay him so much per gallon to do this.
INT:
So it was your potters, you know, your established potters,
that were still making the dirt dishes and the utilitarian ware. And it
was just these farmers that started making, well, I mean, farmers that
were making jugs were just making jugs and that's all they were making.
They weren't making dishes.
DCA:
That's right. That's true. Jugs was their main thing. Now
occasionally they may make a few milk crocks or something, but,. . .
INT:
Yeah, for their own use, but they weren't selling. . .
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 32
DCA:
Yeah, 99% of their output were jugs. It was for the whiskey
trade.
INT:
So, when jugs were no longer in demand, your grandfather went
back and did some farming, and, what happened to his pottery then, during
that slack period.
DCA:
Okay. . .
INT:
Was there still a great enough demand for utilitarian pieces to
keep him busy?
DCA:
Yes, this is what I started to say. People still had cows. They
still needed churns. They still needed milk crocks. And, they were going
great distances to sell their wares, whereas your farmer potter was using
more of a local market. Your potter was going, such as my granddaddy, my
great-granddaddy, Evan Cole, was down in Ivanhoe when he died. That's down
in the eastern part of the state. And he had taken a wagon load down
there. Okay, they didn't have milk crocks and things down there, so it was
an open market. So they went wherever they figured there was an open
market to sell it. Um, did you start to say something a while ago?
INT:
Yeah, you looked like you had something you were going to say
when I was talking about that.
WA:
Well, I was just going to include the storage jars and things
like that, were still in demand for making kraut
and. . .
DCA:
. . .brining meat. . .
WA:
. . .brining meat and storing their syrup, their homemade syrup
that they were making on the farm, and things like that. They were still
in demand as well as the crocks and the churns.
DCA:
Let me tell you of one shape, though. That brings to mind of
one shape that went out, uh, when the glass fruit jars came in. The
potters were doing canning jars.
INT:
Canning jars. Were they about the size of, what a quart?
DCA:
Well, to a half a gallon. And, uh, they would make a jar,
almost straight up, with a little flange on it, and the lid would just sit
down flat on this flat flange. And to
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 33
seal this, now, see this was stoneware so they could seal it. They would
pour the hot, very hot foods in here, especially like tomatoes, that were
high acidity that would keep well. And they would pour bee's wax around
over the top of this and put that lid on it and tie a cloth over it--to
keep anybody from disturbing the lid--and set it up on the shelf. But,
now, sometimes they didn't have the bee's wax and I've heard, I've talked
to several of the older generation of people who can remember that they
used pine balsam to do this. But they said, "Oh, my, that the tomatoes
that you'd have to throw out--a third of the jar--because it was tainted
with turpentine." And, had kept 'em for sure from spoiling, but. . .
INT:
I bet it did preserve them!
DCA:
. . .but they couldn't eat but just about the last two thirds
of the jar.
INT:
So that was a last resort using that!
DCA:
So that's one shape that went out completely.
INT:
Have you tried to incorporate that shape today?
DCA:
No, because, for one thing, our earthenware is porous. It would
not seal like that. It would take a stoneware piece to seal. And it's so,
uh, oh-so-bothersome, so very bothersome. It's not attractive a piece.
Let's take a shape that we have carried on. It's a shape that's quite
similar to the canning jar, but the flange lay over, it did not have the
little inset for a lid. It was just a wide-flanged top jar. And this was
somehow turned as a "sody" jar. I'm sure they kept other things in it, but
mainly it was for soda, and the little flange on the top was so that you
could, uh, tie a cloth over it and it wouldn't dry up. But today, we still
make this jar, and we don't make it for people to use their soda in.
Nobody buys that much soda. But, it is the greatest jar for holding, like,
wooden utensils. It also makes a great vase.
INT:
So you kept the shape but changed the use of it.
DCA:
It's the same way with our milk crocks. We still make exactly
the same old milk crock that has been made for many
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 34
generations. But today, they are used more for a slip pot for flowers in
the home. A blooming plant, you could put that into it. So the usage has
changed, but the shapes, we have retained the old ones. And people like
them.
INT:
They are very pleasing to the eye, I think, because of their
simplicity, a lot of times.
DCA:
I think so, too.
INT:
I guess, I was just speaking personally.
DCA:
Well, I think you're speaking personally for a lot of people,
there, 'cause they're very popular.
(Tape stops then starts)
DCA:
Okay, let's talk a little bit about the transitional period and
what caused that. It's taken me a long time to come to this conclusion,
and I believe that anyone else that would do history, reading in history,
would have to say the same thing. One of the biggest influences, and I
think this answers also the question of why did we survive in the Seagrove
area, why did the potters survive when the potters in Catawba County,
Shenandoah Valley, many other areas where pottery was still made, say, in
the early '20s, they dwindled out. Okay, one of the main facts I've found
was this centennial that was held, uh,. . .
INT:
That's be 1876. . .
DCA:
. . .'76, right. They featured a lot of your folk pottery
along, also with your modern pottery--the modern that was being done at
that time. And a lot of modern was being done out of New York and these
places. But, not modern here. We were still with your salt glaze period,
you see. Al right, it took a long time, well, for this to catch on. But
during this time, after this centennial, you had people like the
Vanderbilts, the Roosevelts, name some more of those wealthy families. .
.
INT:
The Carnegie family, the Mellons. . .
DCA:
These people came, the Rockefellers for instance, came down.
Look what they did for Williamsburg. They began Williamsburg during this
period of time. This renaissance of
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 35
this folk art time. We had people from New York of these wealthy families
who was coming down to that mountain areas and establishing summer homes.
The Vanderbilts put up Biltmore, you see what happened. . .
INT:
Mm-hum, that was during that period.
DCA:
Okay, they not only came in and did these building programs,
the, especially the women, was very concerned over, the backwardness or
over the, uh, what do I want to say? The inability for education
opportunities for the children in these mountainous regions. . .
(Begin Tape 2, Side 1)
INT:
You were saying, Dorothy, that the Rockefellers and other
wealthy people were coming into the North Carolina mountain area for
resort reasons, summer homes, and, they were concerned about the poverty
and the illiteracy and just sort of the backwardness, what appeared to be
the backwardness to them, of the people, the local people.
DCA:
And they were impressed with the many craftspeople that they
found, so they used these crafts as a means of getting to the people, or
being accepted, so that they could help them. Now, I tell you, you know a
lot of snide remarks have been made about people with money, like them.
But you find that these people really had hearts, to, to consider doing
this. They established schools, they established clubs, like women's clubs
that they could get to and taught them how to cook better meals, more
nourishing meals, this sort of thing. But underneath all this was the
craft program, which gave cash money into these families. If they could
make a basket, they, if they put up, like Allentown, was the craft place
there in Asheville, was established by these people.
INT:
They had craft guilds, didn't they?
DCA:
Well, later these were developed. . .
INT:
. . .into guilds?
DCA:
. . .from their efforts, but mainly, it was their efforts,
and it was theirs, and they would get together and
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 36
decide what was good for them, you know. But, after it got going, and after
they sort of pulled out, then, it became into the guild, and was left in,
in capable hands.
INT:
Okay. So the potters benefited from this, along with people
making baskets and quilts and carvings and. . .
DCA:
That's right. And, another thing that they started doing was
collecting the things that their daddies had made, the potter's daddy, say
a generation, two generations, three generations-the older the better.
Antiques was a (whistle) thing with them, you know! They wanted rail
fences around the places, and all this sort of stuff, you know.
INT:
So, the rich people, the wealthy people came in and they sort
of created a market for- what was really a home industry.
DCA:
That's right.
INT:
And then they also placed, created a value, an increased value
on the older pieces. . .
DCA:
. . .pieces, which gave, whether it was a basket or quilt or
pot, the family, pride, in that particular craft that they were doing. And
this was, you know, early, for pride to be in it. Before, it was just
simply a way of making an extry [sic] dollar.
INT:
Yeah. We're still talking about like the 1890s, or have we gone
into early 1900s?
DCA:
Well, 1890s, yes, and 1900s. Now, the, here was Pinehurst that
was established in 1885--excuse me, I'm wrong, 1895--which had begun as a
health resort, and then it became a very popular resort for these same
people, who came from there down here and spent part of the time. This was
the budding golf capitol of everywhere, you know. . .
INT:
Yeah, the United States. . .
DCA; Uh, it, uh, you weren't anybody if you didn't go to Pinehurst. So,
here again, the same pattern emerged. These people began coming out, and
visiting the potters, the weavers, the other people. They began collecting
up an amass, vast collection of these older pieces of, uh, of pottery, of
quilts, or whatever. And today some of these. . .
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 37
INT:
. . .in the Seagrove area. . .
DCA:
. . .Yes! They did. But, then, as time went on, and during
this time, they, um, they began saying to the potter, "Look, I'd like to
have a vase made like this. I don't need a churn. Could you make me a
vase?" "Yes, if you'll draw it off on--" "I'll bring you a picture of it."
These were world wide travelers. They were art connoisseurs. They knew
what was good for 'em and what was bad for 'em. But they wanted more color
into their pieces of ware. So this initiated the desire, locally. There
was an outlet for the clay. But, like I said while ago, go back, and this
was happening all over the United States, not just here in North Carolina.
It was happening in West Virginia, it was happening in Kentucky, it was
happening everywhere. And in Ohio, these were smarter people than we were
down here, as far as--
INT:
They had just more expertise, maybe.
DCA:
Well, they got in there and decided that they, they started off
with turners in their shops. And they realized that they could not get the
perfection that they wanted to make with turners. So they turned to molds.
And then the potter aged out. I don't think they fired any potter. I think
he stayed there as long as he wanted to. But the molded, the chinaware,
this type thing, came into being. Okay, it created a tremendous market of
hiring, ooh, put out millions of pieces of beautiful wares. While they
were there, ceramic, the ceramic industry--that is, the people who would
have, like, the cobalt oxides and this sort of thing, and would powder
them up and get 'em ready for the potters, began being established there.
And, as problems came up, they solved the problem in order to sell their
ceramic materials.
INT:
So they solved any technical problems or questions that the
potters had about glazes, or--
DCA:
That's right. And we got the benefits of it. Maybe they didn't
know how small we were, or maybe it was out of the goodness of their heart
that they was, that they was helping us. I don't know. I talked to one
man, and he, he seemed to think it was a little of it both. A Mr. McGee,
and I have his report on this Ohio-made pottery. So I know that this, this
is fantastic. This is his report that he wrote on, from the transitional
period in Ohio. You could relate it right to this Seagrove area. So I know
that this is right, what I am telling you about this.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 38
INT:
Well, then I guess what happened then, was, and correct me if
I've got this confused. We get these wealthy people coming into the area,
into the Pinehurst area, for resort reasons. And they start, as
individuals they start to buy individual pieces for their own collections
and homes, from the potters. And, probably initially, there was still
mainly salt glazes, but they wanted, the wealthy people wanted more color
in their ware so they started to request it. You know," Can you do me a
blue vase," or a red jug, or whatever. And the potters had to go outside
to seek these glazes, because it wasn't something that was here already.
And so, Ohio had 'a reputation for being a pottery, not center, well,
maybe it was a pottery center at that time?
DCA:
It was, definitely.
INT:
And so they would inquire at these chemical houses for glazes,
and get information, and that's how the colors got into this area.
DCA:
Right. Now there is another angle. There's never one simple
answer for these things.
INT:
Of course not.
DCA:
But, in two cases. One of 'em was--Henry Cooper established
the, uh. . .
INT:
North State Pottery.
DCA:
. . .North State Pottery. He was well acquainted with the
ceramic engineer at our state, North Carolina State College. And he goes
over, and he asks him if he would help him. So, he's the one that
developed this glaze that is now attributed, really, to Jug Town. But,
Nort Cooper's the originator of it. Was that, the copper red, uh, or the
blue, that pretty blue. Now you'll notice, when you're looking at these
early pieces, that the ones that was done in the '20s, practically all of
them were still your stoneware pieces. And this. . .
INT:
In the '20s they were still stoneware?
DCA:
Mm-hum. See, they were used to firing that pot, . . .
INT:
Oh, okay.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 39
DCA:
. . . the clay was there, and they simply, they simply just
used what they had, and they started, and they were still. . .
INT:
So instead of making the crocks and the milk, and the churns
and everything. . .
DCA:
. . .they began making rose bowls. . .
INT:
. . .and vases and, and using, but out of the stoneware, not
the earthenware. The earthenware though, is still being done, but it was
mainly the utilitarian dishes,. . .
DCA:
. . .pie dishes and this sort of thing. Uh-huh. But your fancy
pieces, now, was still being, and mainly they were salt glazed. And, they
began like, pouring cobalt over the top and letting it run down. Beautiful
pieces!
INT:
I bet they were!
DCA:
They were beautiful pieces. But then they began other things,
such as your iron oxides, you were getting your browns, and then your
greens, your copper oxides. Okay. This was a period of the '20s and early
'30s, now, of this. And in the meantime, these people began, kept on
asking for pastels. We want a pink pot, a blue pot, this sort of thing.
So, this is when they began realizing that they could not fire a pink pot
at, 2200, 2300 degrees. That if they would drop their temperature down, it
would save that color in there. So that is when they came into your
earthenware.
INT:
Okay, that's interesting. That's something we hadn't talked
about, and that's very important to know. The glazes, as the demand for
pastels increased, then they had to go to a different kind of glaze, I
mean, a different kind of clay to get that glaze.
DCA:
Temperature, mm-hum.
INT:
Temperature.
DCA:
And of course, then it was a matter, they were still using your
stoneware clay, and it wasn't fitting the glaze. And this was a hassle.
This was a big hassle. Craze. Oh my, you could lay pencil lead in some of
the crazes in those
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 40
early pieces. Little by little, they began realizing that the body had to
be right to begin with. Start with a new body.
INT:
That's interesting.
(Tape stops then starts)
INT:
I'm interested in knowing, the demand for the art pottery, and
the different bright glazes and the pastel glazes, came initially, just as
individual requests from people, the wealthy people that were passing
through. But later on, you started shipping out this new ware by the
hundreds of thousands to department stores and, you know, shops all over
the place. How did they hear about it, initially. What did these wealthy
people, did they. . .
DCA:
Well, these people always set the style, the taste, for the
more moderate person. What they wore was flashed into the magazines and,
um, it was copied to patterns, and then the ladies at home could make
exactly what Mrs. Roosevelt was wearing, you know.
INT:
Right, okay. So it was just copy cat, then.
DCA:
Right. And isn't this still?
INT:
Oh, yeah!
DCA:
It's always been this. All the way down through, through. . .
INT:
Well, did the potters then, were they just sitting back, and
these department stores came to them? Initially?
DCA:
In some cases. Because, a lot of these department store people
were taking vacations at Pinehurst, or Asheville--
INT:
Okay, so they were part of the wealthy people that were going
back and forth.
DCA:
Yes. And so they wanted to know where this came from, we can
sell this in our garden shop. And this was also the beginning of these
large urns. . .
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 41
(Begin Tape 2, Side 2)
INT:
The large urns that were, came into vogue during this period of
time, for gardens, the outside gardens.
DCA:
Yes, uh-huh. In the '30s and '40s. . .
INT:
. . .'40s, and up through World War II?
DCA:
Yes, long about World War II, it sort of subsided. Uh, hundreds
of thousands went to Florida. Beautiful yellows, bright beautiful colors.
Turquoise was really, oh, it was the rage, turquoise was! Still is, as far
as that's concerned.
INT:
I was going to say, that's still a popular color.
DCA:
Uh-huh, yeah. But these large urns were the mainstay of most of
your potters here.
INT:
Were they like, about 24 inches?
DCA:
Yes, and even higher than that.
INT:
Higher than that?
DCA:
36. I'll show you some pictures of some that was made. There
was a thing about, oh, in the '39 to '40s, that went around with the
potters, as to who could make the biggest pot. And this was a fun thing,
you know. Nobody was really mad at each other if they could make it.
They'd just send word over to say, "Hey, I got you whipped, I got it, I
got mine 2 more, 2z inches higher than yours." And so the next day, that
potter went at least a inch higher, and another one went 3 inches higher,
and so it just went, you know, on like this.
INT:
Was your brother part of that competition?
DCA:
This was a little early for him. He came in just a little bit
after that. But, he, too was trying. But, um, this was mainly between Jack
Kiser, here now, it was between Jack Kiser, Jim Teague, well, Duck got in
on a little of it. Duck didn't turn nearly as much as Jim did. Jim was the
real potter in that family.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 42
INT:
Who, Jim and Duck?
DCA:
Teague. Uh, Waymon Cole, uh, these, well, let's see, have I
left anybody out?
INT:
Were the Owens turning?
DCA:
Yes, but they did not tend to go in the direction of the large
urns the way that these people did. They did some, but nothing in
comparison to that. But, uh, the one that caps thatwas, up at, right out
from Asheville, a place called Arden there. Where the Brown family was
making. They did not turn their piece on the wheel. Now, everybody sort of
griped about that. They, they'd taken rolls of clay and did it like, well,
a. . .
INT:
A coil pot?
DCA:
Yes, and kept building up. And, they had a tickle and a seat on
that tickle which let one of the brothers down into the pot. It was Davis
and E.J. Brown that was doing it. One would work on the inside and the
other on the outside. And let me tell you, that's one huge pot, now! Let
me tell you, it's huge!
INT:
Well, did they fire it?
DCA:
No. It was never fired.
INT:
I guess not.
DCA:
And this was another mark against it. But, somehow, after that,
it all subsided. The war came on and nobody, really competed against it.
You have seen our big pots sitting up there that was made, like, 1880s?
INT:
1880s in New York? And that's stoneware, right?
DCA:
Yes.
INT:
And what kind of glaze is on that?
DCA:
That's an Albany slip.
INT:
Albany slip.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 43
DCA:
Um-hum.
INT:
Why do they call it that?
DCA:
Well, the Albany clay, which they made the slip from, came from
around Albany, New York. And it's a type of clay which melts at a very low
temperature, it makes into, like a glaze, when it's fired. . .
INT:
Oh, it's just a different kind of clay, then.
DCA:
Right.
INT:
Okay.
DCA:
Makes a beautiful, lovely, warm, mm! Love that brown!
INT:
I know! And it's not even, that hasn't even been cleaned up
very well.
DCA:
So, this one of course was taken over to Tennessee to use in
that chemical plant, for making acids.
INT:
Then you just used it as a vat.
DCA:
That, that pot does something to me. It is so huge. I don't
know how they fired it. I don't know how they even made it, it's so
large.
INT:
Have you looked in, can you tell, it must have been a coil pot
don't you reckon.
DCA:
I assume that it was probably a press pot. They had a form and
they, somebody would be on the inside and press it.
INT:
Press it.
DCA:
Uh-hum, press it against this form. I imagine that this was
done like this.
INT:
That must have taken a long time!
DCA:
Jase, down here at Jase Cole's, uh, Harwood Graves was in on
this big pot making thing. And, he made, I guess maybe they made the
biggest in this area, because theirs, too, was
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 44
this press mold. He made the mold for it, and then they pressed the clay up
on the side. And those pieces would stand up shoulder high.
INT:
Oh my!
DCA:
Yes! I tell you!
INT:
They took this little competition seriously, didn't they?
DCA:
Oh yes, oh yes! But, that was just one of the things that you
remember and laugh about.
(End Tape 2, Side 2)
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 45
(Begin Tape 3, Side 1)
INT:
Walter, when were you born? I forget.
WA:
When was it?
INT Yeah.
WA:
I was born in 1926.
INT:
1926. Here?
WA:
Just about 3 miles across the county line, in Montgomery
County.
INT:
In Montgomery County?
WA:
Up near Asbury Community.
INT:
Tell me a little something about growing up in Asbury. Was it a
little crossroads?
WA:
No, it was just a, we just grew up there where my family owned,
owned a farm. It was just a small community built around, really, the
church. And,
[unintelligible]
at one time we
had a doctor. My grandfather was sort of an industrialist type person. He
had a tanning yard, and a grist mill, and a saw mill, and pottery shop,
and blacksmith's shop, and things like that. Just most anything that
anyone needed in the community. One little store, and a post office.
INT:
What was his name?
WA:
Fletcher Auman.
INT:
Fletcher Auman. And that was your grandfather.
WA:
That was my grandfather.
INT:
You sure had everything you could need right there.
WA:
Well, he had most of the things that anyone in the comunity
[community]
would need, why it was usually
there. And, uh, 'course, my father, he picked farming, and that's what he
did most of his life. He did a little outside work, as far as working in
the saw mill, and hauling. He did a lot of hauling for the neighboring
potters around. He; in the wintertime, when the weather was bad and he
couldn't farm,
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 46
well, he sort of hired himself out as a wagoneer to haul their jugs and
crocks off to places like Ellerbe, and Fayetteville, Winston-Salem, places
like that.
INT:
What was his name?
WA:
Hadley Auman.
INT:
Did you ever go with him?
WA:
No, I never did. I wasn't old enough to go out, to be out on the
wagon when he was doing that.
INT:
Were they still doing it with a cart and, you know, a mule or
horse, or was this. . .
WA:
It was usually a two-horse wagon that they would go in.
INT:
How did they pack the ware?
WA:
They packed it mostly in straw.
INT:
In barrels, or just lose?
WA:
No, they packed it lose. And it was a covered wagon that they
used.
DCA:
A sooner. A schooner?
WA:
A schooner.
DCA:
It was there out in the barn for years and years. What ever
happened to it?
WA:
It was sold at his sale. And we, had a good life, as far as, we
had no money. We raised our meat and our vegetables and what we had to
eat. And we had plenty to eat, such as it was. We was, we had plenty of
ham meat and sweet potatoes, and most anything that would grow in the
garden that my mother would can. And that, we was fortunate in that. We
raised tobacco for a money crop, but it was very little money it would
bring in a few
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 47
years. Some years it wouldn't bring in enough to pay the fertilizer bill. I
can remember a few of those, where'd hear them talk about them. I had no
responsibility much in them.
DCA:
Do taking the ham biscuits to school on that white bread crust,
you know.
WA:
Yeah, we were, as kids was, we'd be going to school, and our
mother would pack our lunches back then. And, of course, we would have,
she would make these homemade biscuits, and put a big slice of country ham
in there. It would be real thick. And we'd carry that to school with us.
And we were almost ashamed of our, of our raising, carried those sweet
potatoes and ham biscuits and an old rusty-coat apple in our lunch bag.
DCA:
This was right about the time, now, that loaf bread hit the
market around here.
INT:
Uh-huh, which would have been, what, probably. . .
WA:
This is back in the early '30s. During the depression, really.
DCA:
It was the town, like the kids that grew up in town, now, would
take loaf bread. Where their daddies ran, like a hoisery
[hosiery]
mill or something, that didn't farm.
INT:
And the loaf bread was considered?
DCA:
Whew, elite!
WA:
Yeah, it was a light bread and they'd bring those, sandwiches to
school and we have laughed about it a lot since then. Those kids from town
bringing those stale baloney sandwiches to school, and they were just the
envy of our eyes, to see them eating light bread.
DCA:
Sometimes you'd swap with them.
WA:
Yes, we'd even, we'd trade lunches every once in a while to get
one of them. And we thought that was something to eat those--we didn't
realize that we was eating high on the hog then.
INT:
No, you sure didn't!
WA:
(Laughter) We just, uh, kids, we always had chores to do when we
got home from school. Each one of us had a job to
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 48
do. It was feeding the stock, or getting in wood in the wintertime, or
working in the fields, or garden or whatever. There was always jobs to
do.
INT:
How many kids were in your family?
WA:
There was one girl, the oldest, and four boys.
INT:
Her name, tell me their names. Start with the oldest.
WA:
Ruth was the oldest. She was the only sister that I had. And
then I had another brother, Ferrell, then myself, then I had a brother,
Max, and then the last one was Mack.
DCA:
Jack.
WA:
Jack. Jack was the last one. And, there were four boys and one
girl in the family.
INT:
What sort of chores were your responsibility?
WA:
Well, as you got older it would change. The oldest ones would
usually have to look after feeding the hogs and maybe gathering some corn,
or. whatever. And then the next ones would probably be getting in the
wood. And, of course the younger ones, they, that was too small, they
didn't have chores, then. But there was always something for them. . .
DCA:
Well, a lot of your winter afternoons, too, and nights, was
spent grading that tobacco out. 'Cause each, each grade meant that it
would bring a little different amount of money.
INT:
Price, mm-hum.
WA:
Yes, tobacco had to be graded by hand, and then tied in little
bundles, hung on a stick, and it had to be, each leaf stretched out and
spread out to where it would--and then you'd carry it to market and by the
time the buyers got through with it, tumbling it around over the
warehouse, why, it didn't make much difference. As I say, we had no money,
so we had no toys, only just what we made. Wagons and things like that.
And we could always find things to do in the woods, like playing on the
grapevines, climbing in the trees.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 49
INT:
Playing lots of make-believe games.
WA:
Oh yes.
DCA:
How 'bout your wagons, how did you make them?
WA:
Oh, we'd go out in the woods and find us a big old sweet gum
tree and we'd saw it down. We'd try to get one that was, had a, was as
perfectly round as we could. And we saw us some wheels off, blocks off,
that would be about 2 1/2 inches thick. We'd saw maybe a couple a dozen of
those, as long as you'd stay in the round part of the tree. And then we'd
take them and, uh, keep them close to the branch, where it'd keep them
wet, to dry out so they wouldn't crack. And then you could drill a hole in
the center of them and make you a wooden axle to put in there and it would
just last forever. Those old gum trees were so twisted until they wouldn't
crack and split open like a poplar or an oak piece would. It would just,
it tied itself together, the grains of it did.
INT:
Then you'd take you some boards and lay across the axle?
WA:
Yes, just take you, and build you a bed on it, just like you
would a little wagon. And we'd build wagons to race with down the hills.
DCA:
And they'd go to the top of the hill and see who could get down
to the bottom fastest.
INT:
Uh-oh.
DCA:
And sometimes they ended up socking a tree, you know. Busting
the wagon all to pieces.
WA:
These car races now, they ain't got nothing on what most of the
boys had when they were growing up, back in those days.
INT:
(Laughter) Were there other children in your, you know, nearby,
or were you pretty isolated?
WA:
Oh yes. All the families that were in the, they were, probably a
quarter of a mile apart, the houses were, or maybe sometimes further. Most
of the people had children. They raised their own help.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 50
DCA:
Well, his mother had, uh, was from a large, very large family.
And, his mother was close and they visited a lot. And all of his cousins
were about the same age. So, there was hardly a week went by that there
wasn't two or three groups of people.
INT:
Groups of people together.
DCA:
Yes, of these cousins. I've listened to these stories for so
many times when they get together. (Laughter) Of riding the mules, and all
this sort of stuff.
INT:
Well then, tell me about that, riding the mules.
WA:
We didn't get to ride our mules too much in the summertime when
we were working them.
DCA:
But tell about your city cousin that came out. (Laughter)
WA:
We'd, uh, in the wintertime we could get them out and ride them
when we wasn't working them. But, my father wouldn't let us ride the mules
when, in the summertime when we were working on the farm for he said that
mule needed as much rest as it could get. And, we could walk as well then,
as we could.
INT:
Yeah.
WA:
But we had some cousins that lived in Charlotte, and they would
come over occasionally. And that's all they wanted to do is ride the
horses and mules. And my father had one old horse that he called Joe. And
Daddy'd remark a lot of times about him, said he could trot all day under
the shade of a tree. So when they'd come over we'd always put these boys
on the, on the horse to ride, and then we'd get out and thump gravels at
him, make him jump and he'd, of course he'd buck them off and they'd hit
the ground. That was our thrill to get those city kids out there and
riding the horses so we could thump gravels. And they didn't know what was
a'going on. (Laughter)
INT:
Did you have family reunions?
Auman Interview, 7 Larch 1983, page 51
WA:
Not then we didn't. They started in the '30s, in the late '30s
and had family reunions up until World War II, and they quit for about
four years during the war, of having reunions. But since then they've
started back, and they've had one every year since.
INT:
So that's a long-standing family tradition.
WA:
Oh yes.
INT:
Back then, would they be like a day-long affair. Or would
people come for the whole weekend?
WA:
Oh yes, they'd be for a day, the whole day long.
DCA:
A whole weekend sometimes, part of them would.
WA:
Some of them that lived "a distance away would come and probably
stay a couple days.
DCA:
They slept in the barns, on the floor, just wherever that they
could find a place to sleep.
INT:
Would they come to your dad's place or your grandfather's
place?
WA:
They'd come to my dad's place.
INT:
That was where everybody came to?
WA:
This was after my grandfather passed away.
INT:
Mm-hum. Did you ever help, or were you around your
grandfather's pottery?
WA:
No, he closed that shop in, around 1890, I suppose. Somewheres
in that area.
DCA:
His grandfather died when he was three days old.
INT:
Oh, so you never knew your grandfather.
WA:
No, I never knew my, any of my grandparents.
INT:
Did your father, did you tell me that your father had a pottery
at one time?
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 52
WA:
No, my father never did own a pottery shop. He, he worked around
some of the neighbors that, and did a little wagon hauling for them.
INT:
When you went to school, did they have a nine-month calendar
like today, or did you go to school when the weather was bad and when it
was good you had to farm?
WA:
Uh, we had, when we was going to school, it was eight month
school. We had eleven grades. And they never started the twelfth or going
to school nine months until a few years after we were out.
DCA:
Also, they wasn't that strict about attendance back then like
they are now. You've got to go a certain amount of days or you don't pass
that grade. And back then, it. wasn't, because the teachers and the school
were sympathetic toward the family unity of working together.
WA:
As long as you kept your grades up, you could stay out of
school, but you had to, you still had to do some studying when you stayed
out.
INT:
You still had to make grades.
WA:
They was very lenient on the children back then.
INT:
Then you worked after school, doing chores?
WA:
Oh, yes.
INT:
All through school.
WA:
All through school.
INT:
And really grew up a farmer.
WA:
Yes.
INT:
How did your growing up differ, Dorothy?
DCA:
Well, instead of me coming in the evenings and having to grade
tobacco or go pull fodder or go pull corn off, this sort of thing, I
didn't have to do that. My daddy always had
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 53
something around the shop to be done. Water, water always had to be carried
from the spring. That was my job. Oh, it was a dreaded job.
INT:
So you didn't have a pump?
DCA:
No.
INT:
In the pottery?
DCA:
And, uh, the spring was down below it, and if he made glazes or
was going to grind clay the next day or had to wet the sacks down and
spread over the clay, that sort of thing, those buckets had to be filled
with water. So that was my job. Helping grind the clay was my job,
earlier. And, carrying the stuff out to the kiln from the shop that was
dry, to be, to go into the kiln for bisque firing, usually was my job
along with somebody else's. I didn't do it by myself. So there was always
a chore. Always. And I don't know how old I was when I, really, it seems
to me like I was always fascinated with the wheel. And, the potters back
then were so persnickety about their wheel, you know. It was their wheel.
Well, I look back now and I realize I broke the wires, and I moved their
chips, and the rag that they'd have to wipe their hands on might be
muddier than what they liked for it to be. I left it in a mess, I expect.
So they fussed, and they fussed, and they fussed. They'd go to the house
and eat dinner and I'd sneak out and go turn a piece on the wheel. And it
was fuss all the evening. So my daddy got real tired of hearing them fuss,
and he said, "I'm gonna make you a wheel." And he made it to where the
crank shaft was up higher, you know, where the fly wheel is. Okay, he made
that crank shaft to where it was up higher than just above the fly wheel.
And I stood on a box. It was a wooden box. And he fixed the pedal to where
I was just the right. . .
INT:
At the right height on the box to use the pedal?
DCA:
. . .on the box, uh-huh, to use the pedal. And I don't know
whatever happened to that crank shaft. It's probably around here
somewhere.
INT:
Well, then most of the potters made their own wheels?
DCA:
Yes, mm-hum. They would just take a piece of iron and bend it
at where that little crank shaft notch needed to be,
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 54
and hang that board, the further end of it, the lose end, up with a chain.
So that gave it freedom to go backward and forward, backward and forward.
And it worked like a choo-choo wheel, you know. Of course, that turns your
top part of the wheel. And the wheel, even the big wooden wheel was made
out of wood, and usually with two or three iron bands around it to make it
heavy. But now your top was always made out of, uh, just uh, a piece of
tree, and it was usually, probably four inches thick.
INT:
Like the round?
DCA:
Well, across the diameter. Most of those at that time, I know
mine was, perhaps, 12 inches across at the top of it.
INT:
They must, did they use a special, a particular tree? Because,
that, you know, that wheel gets wet.
DCA:
Yes, there were some of the woods I can remember that would
fuzz. Now, apple wood was good because it would fuzz up and you could sand
it off and it wouldn't fuzz up anymore. So apple wood was a choice. Cedar
was good, too. But, I can remember that I had a pine top on one of, on
mine. And it eventually, kept cracking and cracking, little crackles came
in it, until it was, your fingers would just wear out on these little
cracks, running over them. So daddy had to redo it, I can remember. But
now this spindle, you know, this main spindle, that had your top wheel on
it, that you made your pots on, it went on down, it had the crank shaft on
it, and then the big, big fly wheel. Okay, this sat on a particular type
of rock. Instead of having, uh, ooh, what do you call it? Well, today we
have something else around our wheels. What is it called?
INT:
I'm not sure I know.
DCA:
Has little ball bearings around it. Gear, uh. . .
INT:
A gear?
DCA:
Not a gear, well, anyhow, it will come to me in a minute. See,
we need Walter. That's when we need Walter (Laughter) This was set on a
white flint stone.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 55
INT:
It just sat on the stone?
DCA:
Right, and you had to, to, uh, really know what you's doing to
get that wheel to where it wouldn't wobble. Because there was a. . .
INT:
The top wheel?
DCA:
. . .Mm-hum. There was a, right under the slip box, which was
built on later, now. But right, say, 'bout 6 inches below the bottom part
of your top wheel where you made your pottery at, they would put like a 4
x 4 diagonally ,across the corner of the shop there and brace that. And
put pieces of leather to hold that spindle tight against this. They'd
drill out a little, cut out .a little notch in this 4 x 4: Okay, then that
piece of leather would act, what's the name of that thing again? Whatever.
It would act like that. Okay, that had to be in perfect line with this
spot on this, uh, flint block for it to go straight up and not wobble,
wobble, wobble. Because if it didn't--
INT:
Like a top, it needed to be perfectly balanced.
DCA:
Mm-hum, that's right. And out in the fields, if you were
plowing, or if you's just walking somewhere, and you came across a white
flint rock that had a nice, little indention up on the top of it, you
saved it for that purpose. It taken a special rock, so you saved this. And
usually. . .
INT:
Was it a large rock?
DCA:
Very large. It would be as big as, uh, well, a half of a peck
water bucket. That big, anyway. It'd be so large until say, I as a child
couldn't think of moving it around. And sometimes it would take two men to
move it. So, they would dig out a place in the shop, because the ground
was, the floor of the shop was just the ground. They'd dig out a place and
bury that down so it wouldn't move about. And that's what they would start
with and come on up.
INT:
Okay.
DCA:
And that taken some know-how, now let me tell you!
INT:
I was going to say, that's a rather technical thing.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 56
DCA:
That taken some know-how. And it taken a lot of adjusting, you
know, to get it done. But this was the way, the old wheels were. And I've
never known, and I've hunted back in history, I've questioned older, the
older generations, that would've been in like my grandfather's day, and
they could never remember, they didn't even know what you's talking about
when you'd say "set down" to turn a piece of pottery. Everybody stood up.
INT:
They still do around here, don't they?
DCA:
Yes, uh-huh. Yeah, you stand. And standing, they would use this
treadle or the kick motion on this pedal.
(Tape stops then starts)
INT:
When did you start using an electric wheel?
DCA:
Oh boy, right after World War II. Well, I'd say about, within
two years after World War II ended. The REA ran electric lines down into
the remote sections of the places that uh, where the potters were. And,
everybody ran out and got them an electric motor. That was the thing.
INT:
The thing to have.
DCA:
Yeah, boy! And especially, I think, first, everybody got a
electric grinder to grind the bottoms on wheels. And today that is one
sure tell-tale way of dating your pots. If it was, say, uh, you can tell
if it was ground on a hand grinder, and you can tell if it's ground on an
electric grinder. If, once you ever distinguish these two marks on the
bottoms of your pots, then you can almost date your pots, is it prior to,
say, uh, late '40s and early '50s.
INT:
Is when you started doing the electric grinding.
DCA:
The electric grinding, mm-hum. And I reckon Nell, I reckon Nell
Cole was the first to have a electric wheel. Harwood Graves, I guess, made
her the first electric wheel.
INT:
So he made--that was the. . .
DCA:
And Nell, by the way, was the first lady that would, that did
the turning. Always before that it was the men that did the turning. And I
guess I was about the next. I was just a plain old tomboy, though, when I
started out.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 57
INT:
Then you weren't interested in playing with dolls?
DCA:
Well, no, my dolls turned out to be like kitty cats, and I
dressed the kitty cats up in doll clothes, baby clothes, really.
(Laughter)
INT:
Yeah.
DCA:
I remember having a wicker doll carriage and I had dolls, but I
seldom ever played with them. I'd put my kitty cat in that doll carriage,
and push it around.
INT:
And she'd stay in it?
DCA:
She'd stay in it for a while, but, oh, after she got tired of
it now, she, she took off, clothes and all! (Laughter) This is, uh, early
days. Some of the, uh, we were talking a while ago about May Day. Now this
was I guess my very favorite time of festivals or time of the year. You'd
have May Day. And at school you'd have like a May Day pole and you were
fortunate, you know, you felt real honored to be picked as a May Day girl,
to wind the ribbons, or crape paper, we used, around the poles.
INT:
Was this in the spring?
DCA:
Yes.
INT:
In May?
DCA:
It was in May. And, of course there was other honored
positions, and you had speeches, little rhymes and poems that, a lot times
you wrote yourself, you know, and little dramas that was acted out with
two or three of the children in the class would get up. It was, uh. . .
INT:
Did the whole school participate?
DCA:
Yeah, it was everybody! And even like in the parades, even the
older people participated. There was a few people in the community, like,
had bicycles. And, boy, they would dress those bicycles up, and put crape
paper and. Do you know what crape paper flowers are? You know, you could
fix them and looked like. . .
INT:
Yes, they looked like carnations or roses. Mm-hum.
DCA:
Carnations or roses or something. And decorate! Oh my! That was
something. And you'd decorate your dogs, they were in the parade. And
you'd have flower baskets tied on to their necks with flowers on them.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 58
INT:
And so that's where you've got, you have your idea that you,
you are making now, dogs with little mini-baskets on them.
DCA:
Yes.
INT:
Out of clay.
DCA:
Yeah. And if you tied a collar around, most people didn't have
collars on their dogs back then, but you'd tie a string around it and try
to tie flowers around that. And if the dog walked and scratched fleas, all
these would come off. (Laughter) But that was fun, then.
INT:
Why was that your favorite holiday, do you think?
DCA:
I don't know. It was such gaiety and spring, and, uh, everybody
participated, you know. It was, and the parades were fun and they usually
gave prizes to the best-looking dog or the best-looking whatever-it-was.
Some people dressed up like clowns and we'd walk on Tommy walkers. I did
that one year.
INT:
What's a Tommy walker?
DCA:
Oh, a Tommy walker. It's two sticks and usually they would be
like 2 x 2s, something that would bear your weight. And about 24 inches up
and some people would even go 36 inches, which made them real tall, you
know. The taller you were, the better you was at it. Well, anyway, they'd
nail little pieces on there for your foot to rest on. And you would put
the, put your foot on this rest, and then the pole would go sort of behind
your shoulder blades. So you would regulate it and you would walk around
on this and you could, the fun thing, we'd have contests on this. Who
could cross a ditch. Who could walk in sand or muddy sections or who could
go up steps.
INT:
Going up steps must have been hard.
DCA:
Yes! How many times your shins would skin. (Laughter)
INT:
How did they come to be called Tommy walkers?
DCA:
I don't know. I really don't.
INT:
And you did it one year?
DCA:
Oh yes! That was in the May Day program. I dressed up like a
clown.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 59
INT:
Was it normal for the girls to be on Tommy walkers?
DCA:
Well come to think of it, I don't think it was. (Laughter)
INT:
That was the tomboy in you.
DCA:
Yeah. And, of course, your hoop rolling. Now this was another
contest that was held. Keeping, who could keep the hoop going the longest,
and uh.
INT:
Turned it with a stick, didn't you?
DCA:
Right. There was a, you poked a nail, you drove a nail through
a board, and bent that nail to where you could sort of keep a hold of this
hoop, which wasn't anything. Most times it was a barrel. . .
INT:
A barrel stave?
DCA:
Hoop.
INT:
Hoop, yeah.
DCA:
A barrel hoop around there. Sometimes they would make special
ones, if you could get a blacksmith to work with you. But, most times
you'd simply taken what was around the barn or the shop or wherever. And
mine was always barrel hoops. And you'd run those things, and run 'em and
run 'em and run 'em and some just, the kids would give out before they'd
even, you know, ever turn over. That was a lot of fun.
INT:
With the May Pole, there was a little ceremony that went with
it?
DCA:
Oh yes. There was music and singing, as the girls would go
around and round. I say girls. There was boys in that, too.
INT:
Was there boys in that?
DCA:
There was alternate. And you wore pretty dresses and usually it
was, the dresses was like, if you had a red ribbon, your dress was like
white, you know. And then the next one would have a white ribbon and their
dress would be red. And then, there was, you know, different colors
dresses.
INT:
Were you ever chosen?
DCA:
Yes, one or two times, yeah. When I was little.
INT:
Did your mom make your dress for you?
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 60
DCA:
Oh yes! That was part of the deal. I think maybe that had a lot
to do with being chosen. It was whose mom could sew. (Laughter)
INT:
Did you differ from your sisters, do you think? Were your
sisters more. . .
DCA:
More feminine, yes. Definitely so. My mama worried about that a
lot! (Laughter)
INT:
Did she?
DCA:
Not worry, but she would aggravated because my fingernails
wasn't clean when we'd go to Sunday School, that sort of thing. But, um,
and then. . .
INT:
It's hard to keep them clean when you work in clay all the
time.
DCA:
Yeah, and when you're out playing in the dirt, climbing trees
and that sort of thing. And in these younger years, now I'm talking about
now, I guess another favorite time was when the work was all done and Mama
would begin telling stories. We'd just beg her to. She'd say, "Well, get
your work done up and I'll tell you a story." Okay, and usually you'd sit
out on the front porch, and even the neighborhood kids would all come in
to listen. And she'd begin telling one spooky, scary story after another
one, and it'd get to where that it'd be so--the kids was scared to go
home, and sometimes they'd spend the night and sometimes we'd have to walk
home with them, you know, this sort of thing. (Laughter) But she'd tell
things that had been told her and that things had been held. This was our
form of entertainment at that time. And then, oh, another afternoon late,
after the work was done up, late, or especially if Daddy was firing the
kiln, now this was a good time to do this. The reeds, the cattails that
was growing. Okay, there was always some old motor oil or something around
there in can. Okay, you cut your cattails a day or so ahead and let them
sort of dry out. And then poke them down in that oil and let them stay all
day, and it'd soak up. Okay, you'd run and poke your cattail in the
furnace of the kiln and then you'd have a torch and you'd go around and
'round and 'round, you know?
INT:
I bet that was fun.
DCA:
Yeah. Oh, and another favorite evening one was catching
fireflies. Lord, how many millions have I caught? (Laughter)
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 61
INT:
I remember doing that. Putting them in a jar.
DCA:
And lightening up your path as you go. Gee, I don't know, there
was good times to be had. I tell ya. And you know, we used to play an
awful lot of hop scotch and jump rope. I seldom ever see children
playing.
INT:
Like that, I know.
DCA:
I don't believe I ever seen a child play hop scotch in years
and years. But, let me tell you, I could hold my own in playing marbles,
now!
INT:
Could you!
DCA:
Yes I could! (Laughter)
INT:
I've tried to learn how to do marbles, and that's a tricky
thing. .
DCA:
Prrst! See my old long thumb?
INT:
Um-hum.
DCA:
Well, it would just flip them out and go with such force, it'd
just knock them out of the ring.
INT:
You had good aim, too, huh?
DCA:
Well, you practice enough, you'd have it. And we'd make our
marbles, you know, out of the clay.
INT:
Would you?
DCA:
Oh yeah!
INT:
So you didn't use those old glass marbles.
DCA:
Well, we had some in years later. This, but not in these early
years.
INT:
You'd make them out of clay.
DCA:
You'd make them any size. And I don't ever remember anybody
getting mad saying, "Your marble's bigger than mine." You could make
whatever kind of marbles you wanted to. But now I didn't like the big
ones. They didn't fit in my thumb. I couldn't do as good with a big one as
I could one, a pretty small one, I could get more force, and the harder
you hit a marble in there, the more it scattered the rest of them. You
soon learned that! So I liked the little ones better.
Auman Interview, 7 March 1983, page 62
INT:
That's interesting that you made them out of clay.
DCA:
Well, and a lot of times, you didn't even fire them, you didn't
wait to fire them in the kiln. If you's in a hurry for them, you laid them
on the back of the cook stove or fireplace or, you know, some place like
that, and just get them really just good and hard, you know. And sometimes
you hit one in the ring; and it'd just bust all open!
INT:
I bet would. You'd have a mess! (Laughter) Did you ever glaze
them? Did you keep colors, like you know with glass marbles?
DCA:
No, I never had any glaze to speak of.
INT:
You were probably too anxious to play with them to take the
time to go ahead and glaze them.
DCA:
Well also that glazing, when it would melt and set, it would
leave a scar mark on the bottom of it which-didn't make it run true. So
you sort of kept away from that. I have taken the colored water out, mama
would have food dyes when she'd dye the eggs, you know, at Easter, and
you'd take some of that and color some of them. I have done that. But,
that's more unusual than your usual.
INT:
Yeah. Were there other toys or games that you played that were
connected with the pottery.
DCA:
Oh yes, you had your whistles.
INT:
Whistles, clay whistles?
DCA:
Oh yeah, um-hum. Let me show you one right here. Now, this one
is turned, but lots of times you would just fashion it out of your hand.
So put your mouth right here and just whistle.
INT:
Just whistle? (Blows whistle) Hah! So they were made in figures
of little animals. (Whistles again) Isn't that cute?
DCA:
Yes, most times they were. Sometimes it would just be a ball of
clay that you would fix, but most of the time you wanted to do something
different. (Blows a different, higher pitched whistle